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drakflowerfire

drakflowerfire

I just want to find my own happiness
Mar 7, 2024
24
This sad that Kelli can't move on about his child died. I mean, even the persons can CTB without the forum. Just come on woman, just handle your grift doing sometime much better than harrasing people have their safe space.

I am here like a month and only when want to write, it's sad they want to force anyone to not have a chosee to be die or love.
 
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darkenmydoorstep

darkenmydoorstep

Not Waving But Browned Off….
Sep 27, 2023
505
Most members who have been active in this forum for a while know that the media has blatantly misrepresented the purpose and philosophy of this forum for years. For example, let's take a look at these articles here.



The titles already give it away and contribute a lot to the public opinion that we are "pro-suicide".

We're more than just a "pro-suicide" forum as the media likes to smear us, very often implying we're some kind of cult. We're a very diverse community with thousands of members, with most of them struggling to the extent that they think about suicide, some more than others, and that results in a wide variety of content, from conversations about recovery and life to discussions around suicide and the right to die. And yes, I strictly reject the claim that we are "pro-suicide," people in our forum recover all the time and when they announce they're doing better, we cheer them on in this community. [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] This is just a small selection of threads I've found by doing a 5 minute search on this forum and all of them are members announcing their departure because they found something to live for and in some cases, our community directly contributed to that change. For example, here are two specific threads where members of the forum specifically point out this community has contributed to their recovery, again - with nothing but positive feedback under these threads. Nobody is telling them to change their mind, nobody is encouraging suicide, nobody is frowing upon their decision. It's nothing but compassion and acceptance for someone's decision. This is not pro-suicide. This is pro-choice.


Okay. And there is not one single case that I'm aware of, where someone reported significant improvement of their situation, which then resulted in an overhelmingly negative response to that thread. It just doesn't happen. I gave the examples above. If you can prove me wrong, do it. There are so many threads of people basically announcing 'hey, I'm doing better, SaSu helped me through that journey and I'm going to leave this forum now to enjoy my life' and that's a good thing and these threads are always met with kindness and praise as I've demonstrated above. How does that match the accusation of us being "pro-suicide"? Doesn't this kind of behavior displayed in these threads demonstrate a pro-choice position of the overhelming majority of participating members in our forum? This is direct and irrefutable evidence that this community is not pro-suicide but passionately pro-choice. Furthermore, there is not one thing I've said in the last 5 years that would suggest I'm pro-death or pro-suicide. And I think that's quite significant given I'm the admin of this forum, right. I made very clear that I'm pro-choice and everything I've said so far in my position underlines that notion. I have also made clear towards bad actors who try to exploit this forum that suicide encouragement isn't okay. Sadly, trolls with no intuition and nuance sometimes mistake us for 4chan 2.0 and invade this forum with the intention to cause harm. But there is a difference between encouraging suicide and respecting someone's voluntary and well thought-out choice to exercise their right to die. One is pro-suicide and one is pro-choice. That tiny bit of nuance sadly goes unnoticed by the majority of journalists who report on this forum.

The problem is that most people who cover this forum simply don't understand language. The media suggests we're "pro-suicide" - and that's a position that prefers suicide over all other options, right? That's at least how I understand that word. Being pro-suicide means you think suicide is the right answer to every problem, that you should commit suicide if you're thinking about it, without any second thoughts. And that's how we're framed. But that's just not true, we don't suggest to anyone what's the right decision, that in itself makes us pro-choice per definition. It's up to anyone in this forum to make their own decisions, we don't tell anyone what to do - that's explicitly drawn out in the rules. And what you do with your own life is by the way a deeply personal matter, what decision someone makes in regards to their own welfare is not the business of anyone here and anyone out there either. If you want to live is a question only you can answer. Okay, so it's factually inaccurate to report the entire community, thousands of active members with a diverse background and history, as generally "pro-suicide" - as if we're a homogenic hivemind that all have the same thoughts and ideas, it's simply dehumanizing and insulting. And the philosophy of this forum underlines the fact that we are pro-choice very clearly. So again, the constant reporting of this forum as a pro-suicide forum has no factual basis other than a extreme misunderstanding of what it means to be pro-choice in regards to suicide. And again, recognising and accepting someone's decision to exercise their right to die isn't "pro-suicide" the same way that accepting and recognising someone's decision to (not) have an abortion isn't "pro-(or anti-)abortion" either. It's a "pro-choice" stance in both cases because in both cases you're merely accepting someone's decision and action that are expressions of individual and bodily autonomy. You make the decision, nobody else - that's the philosophy of this forum. And giving you a choice to make your own decisions, even when "destructive" (and that's again a question of perspective), is pro-choice. That's the consequence of a liberal interpretation of individual autonomy. And that alone is the determining factor if a position is pro-choice or forced-anything, such as pro-life or pro-suicide. This forum doesn't make the case that there should be more suicides. In fact we say there should be less suicide but as I've pointed out in my response to the BBC, the methods which are applied to achieve that goal are wrong and cause more harm than good. I've also outlined this here in my most recent thread about SN regulation. But I don't think I have seen a representative amount of members make the case that more suicides are a preferrable outcome, we as a community hope that the lives of people who use this forum improve, of course. That's also the position of every single moderator, by the way. Me included. And I would never promote someone to the position of a moderator who doesn't have the best interest of every single member in mind. I have written countless posts and threads discussing suicide prevention and I have literally begged the media to use this forum as a resource to better understand suicidality. But instead they're demonizing us because that's just easier. Don't get it twisted, the current reporting is a mix of both ideological barriers which prevents people from understanding the purpose of this forum but also straight-up laziness, which prevents people from doing their own investigative research and instead they merely adapt the narrative of other journalists that's and why I'm writing this thread right now.

So again, we're pro-choice. And being pro-choice always comes with an accepting notion for the decision you make, right. When I accept and respect a decision you make, that doesn't mean I encourage that decision. These are differences between encouraging a decision or acknowledging and respecting it. So we're pro-whatever-decision-you-make-for-your-own-life as long as you don't harm anyone else. That's inherently pro-choice and until you demonstrate and explain to us why we're more pro-suicide than pro-choice, why it's logically correct to call an entire community of suicidal people collectively pro-suicide, I will reject any article that follows that narrative and this thread here is going to be the standard response to any future articles that calls us pro-suicide and in the future, any questions about this forum can be answered by reading this thread because it contains all the answers you need to know. I also don't take any journalist seriously who writes obviously biased articles and I have no desire to interact with them. I also hope that answers why knocking on my door is going to be a waste of time... right, Angus?

Next, now that I've outlined that we're pro-choice, I'm going to explain to you why it's the morally correct position. If you want to infringe on someone's individual and bodily autonomy, you need very good reasons - which hopefully is a statement that journalists out there covering this forum agree with. And that applies even more so to a fundamental human right like someone's right to die. Your subjective feeling that someone prolonging their suffering might be the better outcome long-term doesn't outweight the perceived emotional and mental distress of the person who wants to die, so their decision to end said pain is always more important than your demand that they should keep suffering. In other words: you do not override someone's lack of consent to stay alive. You have no right to say that they should have to endure their (physical or mental) pain for your own emotional peace, you have no right to force them. We use the same logic to justify abortion, the needs of someone who seeks out an abortion is more important than your subjective feeling as to why it's wrong to have one. And that's literally the concept of individual autonomy and it's the empathic approach to the question whetever someone has a right to die. Relief from pain is a good thing and we need to stop pretending it's not. Of course, if you don't have any empathy for suicidal people, you'll be unable to see that. And if you've never been suicidal, you have no idea how it feels like to be in that position, to sit on hot coals, to suffer so much that you just want to die. That's why suicidal people hate when non-suicidal people speak for and over us and sadly, that's what the media has been doing all along, constantly infantilizing suicidal people in the process and pretending to act in our best interest as if our input doesn't count, and they're showing us exactly everything that's wrong in our world. We have so many members in this forum, like we literally count 45k registered members at this point and it's concerning that the exchange between journalists who want to understand this forum and members of this forum who agree with the philosophy of this place hasn't happened in 5 years. And that's not our fault, I know that members have reached out to these journalists who call us pro-suicide. The problem is, that they're not interested in interviewing people who could humanize Sanctioned Suicide and justify the existence of this forum, as an alternative to the current oppressive approach that's the status quo when it comes to preventing suicide. On the other hand - the exchange between journalists and people who oppose this forum for very irrational reasons has happened very frequently, and that's the problem. There is an inbalance in the research that's done to understand this forum and represent both sides. In other words, there has been no attempt to understand us, that was never the intent - from the start.

And yes, there are some people, for example staff members, who do not want to give an interview but that's because there has been no attempt so far to accurately portray this forum in good-faith and no sign that these reporters are ready to protect people's privacy. But there are enough people who would be open to given an interview to defend SaSu's existence, for example here and here - but as I said, interviewing people who use this forum and giving them space to talk about the necessacity of a website like this forum would contradict the narrative so it doesn't happen. Again, I reached out to a journalist a few years ago, before I was even a moderator, trying to defend this forum and we did actually talk for almost an hour but they never published that interview.

So yeah, the constant misrepresentation of this forum is annoying but it isn't surprising given the journalists covering this forum aren't interested in objective and factual reporting and instead have always emotionalized and dramatized the conversation around this forum by highlighting the apparent repulsive and outrageous nature of this forum or by posting the names and faces of members who have exercised their right to die, as if their implied opposition (none of them have spoken out against SaSu) to suicide has more value and legitimacy than the needs of those who want to die, while also pushing the reasons why they were suicidal in the first place into the background and focusing on their membership in this forum instead to make the forum look responsible for their decision to end their lives and not the real life problems that haunted them every day. And I think that's disrespectful to the people who have passed away. None of those articles are written with the intention to motivate systemic change and more awareness for things that make suicide an attractive option in the first place, it's all about writing bombastic headlines, shifting the blame to the forum. It's obvious. Why wouldn't these journalists want to talk about the systemic causes of suicide, which is certainly a dry topic and instead make a forum responsible which is merely a symptom of a dysfunctional society? We're not the reason why people want to die. According to the data I've seen, the increase in suicide numbers that so many journalists complain about has started before this forum even existed and most members who make an account here in this forum communicate in their registration that they've been suicidal before, sometimes for years - and that's why they want to join this forum. The forum clearly isn't the problem here. They come to this forum as suicidal people because this place has to offer something that's appealing to them... So wouldn't it be interesting for these journalists to look into the reasons why these members who make an account here were suicidal for years, instead of blaming us? It's quite easy, because it doesn't fit the narrative that we're the bad guys.

Another issue is that a big portion of the journalists who are covering this place get most of their information from people who oppose this forum and these are very often the protagonists of their coverage. These are people who oppose us for ideological reasons and push for legislative change to criminalize this forum because they have lost someone to suicide themselves. The problem is, they do not care about the systemic causes of suicide that drove their loved ones to take drastic measures to escape their pain. What they care about is deplatforming the forum because we're an easy scapegoat. And that makes sense, it's easier to cope with the idea that this forum pushed someone into suicide instead of reflecting and thinking about potential signs for someone's suicidality you might have missed or holding the people in charge (politicans and lawmakers) accountable who are blocking systemic change which would allow struggling people to live under better conditions. And shouldn't that be the goal, create a more compassionate and empathic society that makes people want to stay alive voluntarily instead of relying on coercision to prolong people's lives? There is so much you can do to improve people's lives that doesn't attack people's freedom, right. Not all but the majority of those journalists that have covered us and portrayed us in a very negative light in the past are directly in touch with people who are campaigning to shut us down and sadly they refuse to cover this forum with the same neutrality that's applied for the coverage of other, equally controversial, topics. They throw journalistic standards out the window. Journalists like Angus Crawford, Aisling Murphy and Thomas Daigle have never investigated this community properly because if they did, they would know we're anything but "pro-suicide" - as I've explained above - and they would also know that describing a community with 45'000 total members with one word ("pro-suicide") is the most dishonest thing you could possibly do. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. That's the result of listening to grieving people. What they're experiencing is without a doubt painful but they're not good picks for a level-headed and rational conversation on ethical issues like suicide (prevention) and the right to die. Journalists took the input of these people who want to see the forum gone as reliable information without fact-checking claims and taking into consideration that there might be a certain bias, influenced by emotional pain. And that's how you end up with very one-sided reporting, over and over again. Because again, these people have a very clear interest in framing this forum in the worst way possible and feeding those journalists false information, for example that we allow members to use this forum as a marketplace or that we encourage suicide when none of that is true. Their self-proclaimed goal is to make us disappear - that's obvious when you look their Twitter activity and who they blame for the death of their loves ones. And these opponents of our forum are motivated by very negative emotions and that's why they doxxed members of our forum in the past, something that's always brushed aside when these people are interviewed and portrayed as victims in these articles. For example, Kelli Wilson - who is one of the most vocal opponent of this forum has doxxed a member of our community, Catherine Adenekan has done the same and on top of that celebrated the suicide of a member who has taken their own life, mocking their goodbye thread and Lee Cooper has repeatedly threatened to murder the founders of this forum on Twitter yet they're still seen as credible sources and still featured in their coverage on our forum despite the very obvious fact that they have an agenda and they will do anything necessary - literally walking over corpses at this point - to achieve their goals. They also harassed a trans woman who they mistook for me relentlessly. They make very clear that doxxing suicidal people is part of their playbook. These repulsive actions aren't the topic of this thread but it's important to mention that these people are not credible sources for anything related to this forum. I might dive into their problematic online conduct in more detail in a seperate thread if people are interested in that. But they're vigilantes who take the law into their own hands because we're operating this forum 100% legally and none of their political efforts to deplatform us have paid out. That's why they're harassing and intimidating those who run this forum and those who participate as members. They have every incentive in the world to push a certain narrative and spreading lies and misinformation is part of their strategy.

But it gets even worse. Some of the journalists I've mentioned above are members of the anti-Sanctioned Suicide group on Facebook.

This group was founded by Kelli Wilson, the same person that created the website Fixthe26. The same person who also doxxed a member of our forum as I just mentioned before and the same person who said my predecessor needs to get publicly executed and claimed I'm not a human. Does anyone here think that it's a coincidence that journalists who who call us pro-suicide and mirror the "pro-suicide" narrative without wasting any time to fact-check anything are also members of a Facebook group founded by someone who wants to take down the forum and is on the record encouraging physical violence and doxxing someone who committed suicide one month later? I think that's a very questionable connection there for journalists who are supposed to remain some objectivity.

We also made a Twitter thread about this problematic alliance and Thomas Daigle has since left that group while Aisling Murphy still remains a member. I guess some journalists aren't even pretending to be neutral here. Kelli's Twitter account has been banned as a result of all the harassement towards our community and she is actively evading her ban right now with her new account.

Again, unlike the journalists who write these articles I'm not here to tell you what to think. But I find it very suspicious that journalists who have described us as "pro-suicide" (repeatedly) are in a group of vigilantes trying to take down this forum - with questionable methods - and it looks a bit to me like some people are using their position as "reporters" to act as someone's mouth piece. I don't think it's a coincidence that these articles are written like that. Kelli also never made it a secret that she sends emails to journalists, politicians and authorities to influence the narrative - and she has admitted on Twitter that she doesn't care if the information is correct as long as it furthers their agenda.

That's how badly the coverage around our forum is compromissed, specific individuals were able to take advantage of naive journalists and influence the framing of this website. How could you question the framing of a grieving parent? You don't, you just look at the frontpage of this forum and you know all you need to know - if you're a lazy journalist. So again, journalists covering our forum never tried to understand us and why we exist, there was never any investigative research and an attempt to portray this community fairly. It's also odd that they also never even looked at my post history in this forum. I mean if they aren't interested in obtaining a representative view of our community on subjects like suicide and suicide prevention, something that would debunk the claim that we're pro-suicide, they could at least look at my posts - not that I'm representative in any way but I'm the admin after all, right - if you really wanted to know what's the intention behind a forum, what are the thoughts that went into it, how its existence is justified, you could look at my output and include some of my posts into these articles. There are countless threads and posts that explain my position on suicide. But they don't even do that because it directly contradicts their reporting because I've said plenty of things that highlight the importance of meaningful suicide prevention. And no, infringing on someone's autonomy isn't meaningful suicide prevention

And it's remarkable that journalists covering this forum until 2021 made a big deal out of the fact that the founders identified as incels, evidence that supposedly highlighted the sinister nature of this community [1][2][3][4]. You don't really need to do any investigative research into this community anymore when you can just brush this forum aside as some malicious incel trap and that was the framing on this forum back in the days. But for some reason, now that I'm running this community, backgrounds suddenly aren't important anymore. They've never mentioned my background - that I'm a trans woman. There were so many articles that made their coverage on this forum all about the founders' identification as incels but none of the articles that were released after they stepped down highlighted the fact that I'm suicidal myself and a trans woman, someone who supports left-wing policies. They never mentioned in any of the articles that I'm suffering from mental health issues myself and that this could maybe be the reason why I have a different approach to suicide. Wouldn't that be important context when you cover this forum? Wouldn't that give insight into the why I'm doing this? Yeah, maybe if you point out that the person running this forum is trans and has a long history of struggling with several mental health conditions themselves it would kinda ruin your well crafted narrative about evil incels who run this forum with malicious pro-suicide intentions, right. And that's certainly a reputation that haunts this forum to this day. I think we all know why they media has pretended that I don't exist, in the 2.5 years I've been running this forum, they have mentioned my username once... they're clearly trying to pretend that I don't exist while they still harass and annoy one of the founders, even going so far to camp three days in front of this house just a few months ago when he hasn't been involved in this forum for over 2 years. Because it serves the narrative that we're an evil pro-suicide forum and that's easier to sell when you can make an incel responsible for the existence of this forum because it allows you to just ignore the left-wing, anti-oppressive trans woman who has been suicidal for many years, who supports individual autonomy and meaningful suicide prevention via systemic change. In other words, talking about my background would humanize this community to a degree. It's all tied to their narrative.

And no, I'm not saying these journalists are conspiring together and working out the best way to smear this forum. It's all coming together naturally, lazy journalists talking to the same few dishonest people and other lazy journalists just copy-pasting the narratives of other articles. I mean, if the BBC calls us "pro-suicide", it has to be correct, right? And you can kinda guess their political viewpoints on certain topics when you read their articles and some of those who have reported on us have a very clear opinion on this forum, as you can see here and here and that contributes to their bias. Why else would they be a member of a anti-Sanctioned Suicide Facebook group? I wasn't aware that journalists should have an opinion on subjects they research but it explains why there isn't even an attempt to write nuanced articles. Tony Smith also complimented these vigilantes who harassed members for their 'hard work', again proving that there is a clear opinion on our forum... We're the bad guys, period.

And look, it was no problem for me to debunk the NYT when they wrote an article about our forum and just recently I updated my response to them with more empirical data because that's how I approach these subjects unlike these journalists. I don't just make claims, I try to back them up with data whenever possible. I have also addressed the SN hysteria in another thread. I don't fear to challenge the media and confront myself with their claims, it gives me great joy to dunk on these clowns who imply in their articles that we contribute to a rising suicide rate when they're unable to provide evidence for such claims. And there is also data that indicates easy informational access to resources regarding ways to exercise your right to die (in plain terms how to commit suicide) does not increase the overall suicide rate but it rather influences how people exercise their right to die. And it makes sense, this kind of information only affects those who already made a decision to end their life. People think reading peaceful ways to exercise your right to die somehow makes you magically suicidal and having open access to methods therefore increases the amount of people who end their lives but again, that's not how it works. The media always portrayed the forum as the single most important contributing factor to a member's suicidality but people are already suicidal when they make an account - as I explained above. And it's a voluntary process. Nobody has ever forced someone to sign up on this forum and we don't advertise this forum either. Every single member has a feature on their profile to deactive their account and leave whenever they desire. There is nothing that keeps anyone here who doesn't feel comfortable with the subjects discussed in this forum. And again, we see why people make an account here, there are so many people who describe their lifelong struggles with suicidality, their suffering that's been a part of their entire life and failed attempts to recover as reasons why they want to make an account here. All of this contradicts the idea that people are trapped in some kind of pro-suicide prison, where people are sucked in and unable to leave. The entire premise of the reporting about this forum is based on the misconception that people who stumble upon this forum, healthy people with no struggles at all, magically commit suicide because the content of this forum is literally brainwashing them and the data I've included in my response to the NYT or the BBC does not confirm that idea. In fact it debunks the idea that this forum has any meaningful impact on nationwide suicide numbers, both in the US and in the UK. We don't change the metrics, even if we tried we couldn't. That's the reality.

It's a blatant misrepresentation of how suicide works in its entirety. People make an account here by choice. They participate in this forum voluntarily. And any decision they make for their own life has little to do with this forum. They're conflating causation and correlation. We don't make people think about committing suicide. People who think about commiting suicide make an account here. That's an important difference. But that would again go against the narrative.

It's also weird that the recovery section is invisible to everyone who thinks we're pro-suicide. Maybe I'm hallucinating but pro-suicide communities aren't exactly known for their recovery resources...

And none of those articles covering our forum with sensationalist headlines seem to remember that pro-choice communities have existed as long as the internet, as these articles from 2011 and 2015 prove. It's safe to say that the philosophy of this community will not disappear but re-emerge under a different name if this forum is taken down successfully and no amount of oppression and censorship will change that, as long as fundamental flaws in the treatment of suicidal people aren't addressed. And calling us pro-suicide at this point is merely an admission that you don't want to talk about the real problems.

Last but not least, what's "pro-suicide" seems to be highly subjective. The BBC covered the topic of assisted suicide a few years ago and they were even accused of a pro-suicide bias. It's almost as if people who disagree with the right to die will attack anything that's remotely pro-choice, hm? Utterly ironic though that the BBC was attacked with the exact same slander that we have to endure right now.

We're almost done with my thread but I also want to shed some light on some academic research to further back up my position. For example, this academic paper here, which dives into the ethical dilemma of pro-choice forums, looking at both pro-life and pro-choice viewpoints and at possible solutions for the ideological conflicts that's at play here between both parties.


And, would you look at that, very early in that paper it acknowledges that the media very often describes pro-choice forums as "pro-suicide", combined with calls to shut them down. And that's exactly what's happening here and that's exactly the reason why I'm writing this thread. So again, maybe journalists aren't really doing much research here as pointed out earlier and maybe they're just dismissing this forum as pro-suicide without knowing what they're talking about or what this forum stands for. I can only recommend to read this paper, it's very interesting and it also explores the ethical conflict in communities like ours when it comes to more controversial methods like train rails due to the fact that bystanders and third parties are involved in that method. Very interesting paper and obviously approaching the issue from an open mind - unlike those journalists.
Here are some snippets.​

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That paper cites a professor and researcher who is located in Canada, who has written some work about suicide, see here.


And it's by far one of the best academic papers on the subject of suicide from an anti-oppressive perspective. Here is a snippet of their proposals. And it's honestly the best thing I've read in a long time. Like that's exactly what I've been talking about all these years. That's how real suicide prevention could look like without throwing people under the bus who sincerely want to die. But yeah... journalist who have no idea what goes through the mind of a suicidal person will never understand that. Here is a snippet.​

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So maybe some of those Canada-based journalists who have called us a pro-suicide forum want to reach out to actual experts on this issue before they just slander an entire community as pro-suicide? Like again, why do I have to read and link these academic papers? Why is it obvious that none of the journalists covering this forum did their research, not even basic research, looking into the ethical considerations around spaces like ours? Like, the academic discourse on suicide forums has been going for a while and there are answers that already tell you why this forume exists and why people use it. Why there is a demand. And the answers aren't as sinister as you'd like.

On top of that, there is also another academic paper that looked into this forum back in 2021 and they didn't find any suicide incitement. They said idea reinforcemenet might be present that's a very different claim than us "encouraging" suicide. They also call us a pro-choice suicide forum in that study, which I think is a more accurate depiction and it makes sense given researchers care about the truth and not about exciting headlines.


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So how is that for scientific evidence?
This entire thread is me going out of my way to address allegations which have been thrown around for years without ever being substantiated by anyone. None of those journalists have ever been able to back up up their questionable accusation that we're pro-suicide, that we encourage suicide or similiar claims. And that's concerning. As a journalist you have a duty to report the truth. It's not your job to make up your reader's minds but that's what you've been doing by making the decision for them if the forum you're reporting about is pro-choice or not. You have violated basic principles of good journalism and you clearly don't care to uphold any journalistic objectivity in any of your articles covering this forum. In other words: you're bad reporters.

And again, I didn't have to write this thread yet I did it anyway - because I wanted to. I don't have a problem responding to these journalists and taking them apart. I've done it for years. And it goes without saying that I don't take any journalist or reporter seriously who calls us pro-suicide and in my humble opinion, neither should you. They just expose their own ideological bias when they do that. Scientific articles to this day describe us as pro-choice, such as this one that just came out a few days ago. Odd, isn't it? And I also linked to an academic paper that doesn't use charged language, that take nuance into consideration and recognises there might be no incitement but reinforcement instead which blows the entire pro-suicide construct apart. That's my conclusion after reading it but you're free to make up your own mind. I spent quite a lot of time writing this thread and I tried to include research backing up my position, something that people who call us pro-suicide never do.

That was the first and last time that I've addressed these allegations. And I hope I explained why it's problematic to call us pro-suicide, why it's problematic that the journalists obviously don't care about truthful coverage, why it's problematic to ally with vigilantes and why it's problematic to neglect the academic discourse. Obviously, this thread isn't going to change the narrative because they don't care. Reporters covering this forum ususally ignore threads like this one where I directly respond to their claims, correcting misinformation. But I hope at least my community gets something out of it and I'm at least on the record now responding to these allegations. Thanks for reading.​
We need a place to discuss this that isn't full of people wanting to save us. For me that's what this place is. I have found out so much and should I choose to end it I now have more confidence I could effect this in a peaceful way without it going wrong. That itself is a restful thought for me.
 
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Silent_cries

Silent_cries

I wish I could delete my trauma...
Aug 10, 2021
1,040
The problem with media and pro-lifers in general imo is that they tend to portray everything that is a bit unusual or outside of the norm as something malicious when that's far from always the case. One thing I've noticed over and over again is that ppl seems to be afraid of things that are different and thus encourages others to fear it too as to not look like the cowards they rly are. It's the same thing with homophobes and transphobes, the reason they exist is bc they're afraid and thus want to make being gay or trans seem like something malicious when in reality it's completely harmless and they just don't want to admit that they're afraid. The fact that the media keeps furthering this trend of making ppl afraid and thus dislike or maybe even despise things that are different from the norms doesn't exactly make it any better either. This is one of the reasons I hate the media and pro-lifers the most tbh. They basicly always judges the cover and never actually reads the book, smh -_-
 
sash

sash

f/uk seeking partner to vanish with
Oct 1, 2023
200
I have seen before & since joining some people in dispair. Suicidal. Imminent. Today.
They put themselves out there. People respond. People understand how they feel.
They didnt die that day. They met people who could hear them & truly felt for them. Understanding. Not brushing it under the carpet.
This site has helped many.
Theres a recovery section!
This is the only place we can be honest. And be genuinely heard and understood.
There is nowhere & nothing else that gives me this freedom to be honest. Nowhere.
We are not alone here

Thankyou SS 🥰
 
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melancholymallory03

melancholymallory03

Do cats live nine lives ? Or do humans ⏰
Feb 20, 2024
360
This site has helped many, perhaps hurt many and inspired others. It's not our place to judge why someone has wandered on here.
If there wasn't a site like this people would just suffer in silence and order drugs of the deep web without knowing how to PPE properly.
I couldn't fathom anyone I love dying, that's why these people are so messed up over it but they gotta understand how much pain the person was going through. We just can't judge someone until we're in there shoes 👠 👞 👟

Perhaps the parents should assess themselves , online safety annd anny other precautions they can take so it dosent happen angain. and what possibly could have led up to a child committing suicide.im sure the home life was no prize and the parents were most likely absent , not supervising.
I have seen before & since joining some people in dispair. Suicidal. Imminent. Today.
They put themselves out there. People respond. People understand how they feel.
They didnt die that day. They met people who could hear them & truly felt for them. Understanding. Not brushing it under the carpet.
This site has helped many.
Theres a recovery section!
This is the only place we can be honest. And be genuinely heard and understood.
There is nowhere & nothing else that gives me this freedom to be honest. Nowhere.
We are not alone here

Thankyou SS 🥰
Very well said 🧡
 
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colourfulmai

colourfulmai

Member
Feb 17, 2024
10
I think this forum is great as it allows people to express how they feel without it being unrelated, this is the exact place people can vent about their feelings without consequence. Sometimes when you're feeling really low, it can feel nice to share how you feel, whether you're venting on a thread, or if you just say how you feel in chat, people recognise and acknowledge you here and support you. We don't promote suicide, when someone recovers, we support them, when someone vents, we support them, if someone is feeling so low and wants to commit suicide, we respect that. We do not have the right as a person to force them to change their mind, it's their decision and we do not get a say in it. So we support them and wish them the best to have a painless death. We have empathy for eachother here and we don't judge eachother because we get that feeling. I've never felt so comfortable and open to talk in a place before. I'm so glad this was made, thanks to all the people who use this site! So glad I can talk somewhere and spread my opinion!
 
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Oblivion

Oblivion

Wizard
Aug 2, 2018
610
There's nothing wrong in being pro suicide though, fuck them
 
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A

Anonymous2998691

Member
Aug 14, 2023
19
Why? Suicide is a good thing.
 
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Equilibrium

Equilibrium

Member
Mar 18, 2024
17
It's beyond unfair that the people who suffer with suicidal thoughts have no voice and therefore the cycle of never understanding why someone commits suicide will continue to happen. Its a dogshit cycle that ruins the chances of new people being born with mental illnesses to actually get help. And to know half the reason why people assume suicide is bad is cause religion demonizies anyone who dares to think about it is more reputable evidence that suicide prevention is fucked and will continued to be fucked without places like these taking a progressive stance on the subject of suicide and actually finding the middle ground between suicide and recovery. I hope the SS community the best as it has brought me peace knowing I'm not the only one suffering here and I hope this site helps someone with influence bring about notable change to the mental health industry.
 
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A

another_user

Member
Apr 16, 2024
35
I'm not pro suicide, I have lost someone I loved to suicide as have members of my family, so I know the pain it causes. I don't want anyone to commit suicide and I especially don't want minors or vulnerable people on this site. I also think it should not be as easy to discover as it currently is (but outside sources have make it that way).

That said, I am someone who is not a minor or mentally incapacitated and who made the decision to come here myself. I want access to certain information and it is here.
 
A

another_user

Member
Apr 16, 2024
35
I mostly agree but there are some characters on this forum who are trying to further peoples depression and that is in at least my opinion wrong in the sense that the people who come here should make their own choice and we shouldnt push them any further.

I agree, I think it is okay to share personal stories and feelings as it makes others feel less alone, but nobody should encourage someone to do something like suicide. It is a very sad choice and one that should be theirs alone.
 
BrokeN__lil’__girl

BrokeN__lil’__girl

dead_inside
May 10, 2023
333
So even if this site is pro-suicide??? So what?? Just bc suicide is illegal in some countries it does not mean committing suicide or supporting the people's right to end life is amoral……
 
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Ditto

Ditto

Member
Apr 26, 2024
27
They seem to care more about the damn site and the whole point of it (even though their interpretation of it is wrong) instead of the people on the forum. It's so stupid tbh
 
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odradek

odradek

Mage
Sep 16, 2021
557
If there's actually any journalists reading this, I impore to read through the introduction thread.


Virtue signaling youtubers and journalists alike take note. Rather than creating a moral panic about SN or this website, why don't you use your much larger platforms to spotlight some of the issues in that thread? Combined with this thread it makes a pretty stark case. If it doesn't absolutely break your heart reading that intro thread in good faith then... Like you are the baddies. Wrong side of history and everything. This site is not perfect but what is? We're in the equivocating geocide phase of history again. With facism on the rise all over. Your false moral outrage is unconvincing. These are systemic issues.
 
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Nemaki Arber

Nemaki Arber

Lost soul & chat lurker
Mar 24, 2023
32
Im an occasional lurker and rare poster on this forum, i only really do when things get particularly bad for me

It brings me a sense of comfort, seeing that if I decided to share my pains here nobody would judge me or incarcerate me and infact talk to me about it

I like this place, I dont want to lose it
 
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S

silence ends

Student
Jan 10, 2023
120
I think the atmosphere in this kind of forum should be realistic and open.
Someone can get that as pro-suici and some other pro-life.
 
milkginger

milkginger

“Ano passado eu morri mas esse ano eu não morro”
May 31, 2022
43
I first accessed this website 3 years ago! Here I found acceptance, support, empathy. I actually found a community that helped me during my recovery. I even tried CTB while chatting and in the meantime I regretted it. Everyone helped me in some way to ask for help! This forum is not about morbid people as many think, it is a place where we can talk openly about choices and not be judged for it. I apologize for my English, this is not my mother tongue.
 
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S

shaucro

Member
Mar 10, 2024
22
If by "pro-suicide" people mean 'prepared to talk about suicide' then, yes, guilty as charged. I'll happily own the label 'pro-suicide' if that's the way to advance the conversation.

I've found this reaction in real life too (not just in the media) People do not want to even talk about the subject. Indeed, it's SO refreshing to speak to someone who doesn't want to shut the conversation down at the first instance. (I don't go introducing the subject btw!) Imo, we do not talk enough about the end of life, the subject is taboo. There's been a recent rise in conversation on 'assisted dying' in a number of countries recently and one only has to witness the reaction to that to realise that a majority of people just don't want to hear it, in any shape or form.

So, yes, I'm pro-suicide out and proud - with the unfortunately needed caveat that that means that I DO NOT encourage people to ctb but I am most definitely in favour of there being a pathway to it as a legally assisted option.
 
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set0553

set0553

самоубийство
May 16, 2024
111
I've only been here less than one week, and can already see that this is a forum of caring and supportive people to anyone who has made their own choice to end their own lives. I haven't seen anyone who has "encouraged" suicide or pushed anyone toward suicide, but only support them in their decision, after its already been made. Media and "government" is ridiculous trying to take some sort of "moral highground" that suicide is "wrong" or a "mental illness" but would rather force someone to continue to live, even though life may have become unbearable and agonizing, going as far as to force someone to therapy and drugs which rarely work, instead of allowing people to make their own choices, and supporting them through that choice..
 
set0553

set0553

самоубийство
May 16, 2024
111
I first accessed this website 3 years ago! Here I found acceptance, support, empathy. I actually found a community that helped me during my recovery. I even tried CTB while chatting and in the meantime I regretted it. Everyone helped me in some way to ask for help! This forum is not about morbid people as many think, it is a place where we can talk openly about choices and not be judged for it. I apologize for my English, this is not my mother tongue.
Your English is better than most naive speakers my friend! 😂
 
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Sito

Sito

Member
May 17, 2023
8
I don't come here often but this forum help me discover different perspective and vent.

It's hard coming to terms with not wanting to go on and I think people should have that choice.

I would say most of the people I've interacted with are more "Pro-choice" than "Pro-suicide"

It's been helpful discovering that individuals feel the same as I do and want help.
 
Justnotme

Justnotme

I want to hang myself
Mar 7, 2022
551
Isn't it a crime to give birth in such a world?
Your child may be kidnapped and taken into sexual slavery. You just need to turn away for a minute and your child is gone.
Your child may be disassembled for organs.
Your child may be attacked by a drug addict who takes mephedrone because he is aggressive!
Your child will want to commit suicide because he knows how cruelly animals are being killed here.
Your child will learn how they can be exploited to make money with it.
After all, you don't know what your child will get sick with and how painfully he will die.

Damn it, just leave the unborn soul alone and don't bring it to this hell!

The terrible events that can happen here are much worse than they seem!
 
Dark Window

Dark Window

Forest Wanderer
Mar 12, 2024
548
Some of you people say "what's wrong with being pro-suicide".

Well it's not a good thing to label yourself that. Pro-choice is the better term, as pro-suicide can be interpeted as you wanting people to kill themselves, rather than just wanting to have a choice.

Pro-suicide forums should not exist, pro-choice forums should

No site should be convincing people to kill themselves, only allowing them free speech, free choice, free will, free access to information.
 
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K

Kin

New Member
Jun 13, 2024
1
I respect what you do and the space you and your team have brought us all. Keep fighting the good fight. I hope someday the world changes. They're just not ready to have the discussions we have yet. That's all
 
jarik

jarik

Student
Jun 12, 2024
161
Unfortunately, people are just waiting to say false things to ruin people's reputations. I personally feel great with this site, fantastic people and extreme convenience.
 
C

Cruelhearted

Member
Feb 12, 2024
19
I think some of the problem could lye with reading/researching with blinders and never actually looking at the site as a whole. If some sees the web addy, 2 words meaning permission/approval and death. They stop there and judge because that's easy. It's the same with articles linked saying 'pro-suicide'. It's easier to judge.

Those that are ignorant and stop at the web Addy never see the off topic discussions or recovery sections.

I'm definitely not planning on being part on the positives offered here but they do exist. It's a shame some would rather judge from the outside instead of seeing those good parts.
 
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evilnkaa

evilnkaa

Till' Death Was Never Enough
Jun 24, 2024
7
It's crazy to think people really look down on forums like these. I personally believe this place supports everyone and where they are at in life. If anyone decides to leave this earth people don't give them death theats, hate, or judgment. Instead they wish them well and show respect towards their choice. A lot of people when they are struggling its super hard to go to loved ones because they won't understand or won't respect their wishes or the relationships become tense. I find this place like an escape. Sure there are probably weirdos on here or people that truley are the worst but the majority of the community is amazing. :heart:
 
Onelegman

Onelegman

I use a translator
May 24, 2024
553
I just read the article, they say things that are not, like all the press today. They are looking for clicks and money, people will believe their lies and the website traffic will increase, but that will not close it.

They talk about 6 million visits and 45 deaths, an absurdly low percentage for it to be worrying, if they told me 6 million visits and 1 million deaths... but it wouldn't even be a problem.

The problem is the poor people who cannot say that they have suicidal ideas, or who say it and are ignored, or worse, are told that they just want to get attention. And they finally end up doing it. Before this website there were already alarming CTB figures, but they ignore that, as I say, they only want views and clicks.
 
Ruru-chan2

Ruru-chan2

I only exist online
Mar 27, 2024
69
Ty for the effort post🙏🏻❤️
 
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BojackHorseman

BojackHorseman

The View From Halfway Down
Feb 8, 2023
126
Such a well worded paper you have written here @RainAndSadness . Thank you for your effort, cause I know this level of research and eloquence required HOURS of your time, if not days, and an incredible amount of effort, and you did it while also dealing with your own personal issues. I think it's quite amazing that you have your own life and personal struggles, yet still have the emotional capacity to help all of us have a safe space to share our feelings. Thank you, truly.

I do think there's one other small thing you could have mentioned. You mention we have a recovery section, but I noticed that in the settings part of our profile we actually have the ability to show or hide both the suicide and recovery forums. I think that function further shows the sites pro-choice stance, to choose either way what content we do or don't want to see.
Apologies if you did include that and I overlooked it.

To any reporters that actually give a fuck about journalistic integrity and science and research, I'll add a short message of why I'm here and support this site.
I will be honest that my marriage to a wonderful man, thus removing me from an abusive childhood home, has been single handedly the most positive influence on my mental health. This I think further confirms the issue mentioned in this post that to stop suicide we need to address the societal issues causing these feelings, not attacking some website where people gather to share and show empathy to others in similar situations.
But, even though I have what one would consider a good life now, I still struggle with my old depressive and suicidal thoughts. Not near as often, and usually not as intense as they were when I was living in an abusive home, but it's still a burden I carry in my life. This website has actually improved my mental health the more active I am. Actively sharing my emotions and receiving empathy and support, and most importantly showing empathy and support to others, has been a great help to my mental health. I have my bad days of course where im depressed and struggling, but I haven't had an actual breakdown where I actually grab my gun and hold it to my head in a few months now. I think this site is to thank for that. Looking back at my last breakdown, it scares me. I don't want to have another one. The empathy and kindness I receive (and hopefully give) here help keep those breakdowns at bay. So to the journalists and politicians out there, if your reading, please don't take this away from me, from all of us.
 
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