• Hey Guest,

    As you know, censorship around the world has been ramping up at an alarming pace. The UK and OFCOM has singled out this community and have been focusing its censorship efforts here. It takes a good amount of resources to maintain the infrastructure for our community and to resist this censorship. We would appreciate any and all donations.

    Bitcoin Address (BTC): 39deg9i6Zp1GdrwyKkqZU6rAbsEspvLBJt

    Ethereum (ETH): 0xd799aF8E2e5cEd14cdb344e6D6A9f18011B79BE9

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RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,149
If you're a non-member and read the articles about this forum that were published in the past 3 years you would probably have to come to the conclusion that this forum has a severe impact on suicide statistics, in a negative way. The media portrayed this forum as a place that makes people commit suicide, a cult that encourages them to go through with their plans or a community that has a noticable impact on suicide statistics [1][2][3] - nothing could be further from the truth and we can prove that with empirical data.

Let's dissect the NYT article, the most pretentious hit piece so far, step by step.

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They claim the suicide rate increased from 2009 to 2019 and correlate these numbers with the existence of this forum - which doesn't really make sense considering the forum was founded in 2018. So it's fair to say that the rising suicide rate (a trend that started in 2009) has nothing to do with the discussions in this forum and I can prove that. Let's take a look at the suicide rate in the US. According to the National Insititute of Mental Health the suicide rate decreased after 2018!

They say:
The total age-adjusted suicide rate in the United States increased 35.2% from 10.4 per 100,000 in 2000 to 14.2 per 100,000 in 2018, before declining to 13.9 per 100,000 in 2019 and declining again to 13.5 per 100,000 in 2020.

And here is a visual representation of the suicide rate. The red line marks the year SS was created.
1656951914491
The suicide rate decreases right when the forum was created, is that a coincidence? What's the narrative here, Megan Twohey?

Sadly the data cuts off at 2020 but this study from June 2022(!) confirms that the suicide rate didn't increase during the entire pandemic. If the forum had such a wide impact on people who aren't already suicidal, considering we have thousands of members, the suicide number would certainly have skyrocket during the pandemic, an event that's known to have a wide impact on mental health, right? It didn't happen. I think most members who visit this place for ressources and that includes guests by the way use the forum to secure their exit in case of an emergency. This can be an accident that sucks out any quality of your life or a sudden diagnosis of a terminal disease. That's why a vast majority of people purchase the Peaceful Pill Handbook, because they want to secure a peaceful way out once their life goes to shit and that's a very understandable notion. The media created the myth around emotional, vulnerable and impulsive masses that involuntarily stumble upon this forum in a state of emergency just to use the first method they discover to commit suicide. But that's not what happens and the numbers reflect that. There is no increase of suicide.

Most people who register in this forum stay to engage with the community because unlike most other spaces, people get to talk about their feelings and their struggles without censorship or intervention here. And that's what makes this forum so attractive to people who value their individual autonomy because, quite frankly, people are tired to of the condescending and invalidating treatment they experience out there. There is a strong stigma around suicide and if you break it, you get rewarded with an involuntary visit in the psych ward... lovely, right? And that's why this community has the capacity to prolong life, because the aspect of mutual and compassionate support, the ability to express your pain and suffering openly and honestly, makes people stay - and it obviously works, as seen in the suicide statistics.

Now, let's address another elephant in the forum. The NYT claims that this forum has 6 million views per month but why aren't these visitors reflected in the suicide statistics if people only use this forum to obtain a suicide method as it's claimed in that article? The entire article is about the narrative that this forum has only one purpose: suicide and nothing else. There is a reason why they didn't even mention the support aspect I just talked about - because it doesn't fit into their narrative. It would debunk their claim that this forum is pro-suicide because we're not. We're pro-choice and we recognise individual autonomy and human dignity and we consider the right to die a basic human right. But the goal of the article was to make this forum look as sinister and evil as possible, the entire article builds up to that by portraying us as some kind of cult that encourages suicide as the only option and that's why the alleged background of site admins played such a crucial role. But that's completely absurd considering we're a community of suffering people who simply want to have a choice in deeply personal matters that affects their welfare. The NYT pretends that these 6 million views represent unique visitors to create a strong need for immediate action when that's not the case, these numbers are highly inflated. I doubt the real number even comes close to the millions mentioned in the article.

Let's continue.
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The NYT claimed in their article that they found 500 goodbye threads of members that never posted again. They claimed they were able to verify 45 suicides associated to this website - the forum was online for 3.5 years when that article was published. And that was their big reveal of that article, the "empirical evidence" that proves how harmful this place is. Let's say that's true, just for the sake of argument - 500 threads in 3.5 years. Now let's talk raw numbers for a second to put this into perspective. Approximately 800'000 people commit suicide each year, that means there is one suicide every 40 second, that's ~40'000 in the US alone. It's absolutely absurd and ridiculous how they sensationalised the numbers quoted in the article, blowing them way out of proportion when that's actually a fraction of the actual numbers - for what? A nice headline about that one ominous forum that's luring people into suicide? Oh, really? Then why do the suicide statistics demonstrate the opposite, mainly a decrease in suicide in the geograpic demographic that's most represented on the forum? Because even if that claim was true, the influence of this forum in actual suicide statistics is obviously tiny. There are so many members in the forum who claim that the forum prolonged their lives - me included by the way, this community has a real suicide prevention mechanism that's barely talked about. Again, the NYT article left this out on purpose, because they lied and constructed a false narrative that this forum lured people into suicide that didn't already make up their mind. And that's the point. This forum doesn't lure anyone into suicide. We're talking about autonomous adults that are capable to make their own decisions. People voluntarily create an account to participate in this community. It's a conscious decision that's ususally the result of years of suffering. The fact of the matter is that there is a lot of nuance that was intentionally left out by the journalists that created this piece of propaganda artwork.

And look. The US has approximately 40'000 suicides each year and around 20'000 of them are suicides with guns. You don't need a forum to kill yourself with a gun. You just need access to a weapon and the current legislation in the US enables this method. Give me a fucking break. Half of the people that commit suicide don't even know this forum exists because they don't need it. These journalists didn't fact-check their claims, they didn't research if the empirical data actually supports their narrative - they talked to 3 people that were in some way affected by the forum, putting anecdotal evidence over empirical data and put a dim black/white filter over every image they've uploaded to their article to manipiulate emotion. And that's it, that's the entire magic behind a poorly researched and dismissable article, written by people who exactly knew what the article would look like when they started "investigating" because there was no investigation. The journalists were spoon-feed the information by the people that were given a platform in their article. They didn't talk to one single active SS member - it's because that article was designed from the start to represent a clear anti-choice narrative and throw every single suicidal person under the bus - because we didn't get a voice. We didn't get to talk about the reasons why we are here. Because that article was never meant to be about suicide prevention or... investigative journalism. If you wrote an article about a community, wouldn't you at least want to know what they think?

There is scientific research that challenges or even debunks the notion that the forum has any significant negative impact on suicide.
Here is a German publication that researches the impact of "suicide forums" and they concludes that there are actual benefits of their existence.
Here is a very informative discussion around the NYT story between mental health experts and they highlight problems with the conclusions of that article.
Here is a detailed analysis of the effect of this forum on its members and I think they paint a fair picture of the community, pointing out significant positive impacts.
According to this study the release of Final Exit didn't(!) increase total suicides but possibly enabled more peaceful deaths by giving people a choice of options. I think it's fair to assume that this forum has a very similiar effect on those that decide to exercise their individual autonomy.

It seems that accessability to methods has an impact on the quality and not necessarily on the quantity of suicides. As far as I know, there is no empirical evidence that connects a disproportionate amount of suicides to this forum or "suicide forums" in general.

And look. I've talked to a reporter from Buzzfeed a few years ago for 40 minutes, I've tried to address the questions and concerns of the first article about this forum that was released back in 2019 but the interview didn't make it into a follow-up article because it was never written. Because once again, a headline that suggests malicious incels are luring people into suicide is way more interesting and click-baity than an article that explains why suicidal people voluntarily register in a forum to discuss ways to exercise their individual autonomy. And that's what people hate. This is nothing more than an ideological attack on autonomy and liberty. I'm sure we will have more articles in the future, repeating the sensationalising narrative that's been solified in the last 3 years just to increase the guest numbers of this forum for the sake of "suicide prevention".

Good fucking job.
 
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Julgran

Enlightened
Dec 15, 2021
1,427
Well done to you for compiling this information!

They claim the suicide rate increased from 2009 to 2019 and correlate these numbers with the existence of this forum - which doesn't really make sense considering the forum was founded in 2018. So it's fair to say that the rising suicide rate (a trend that started in 2009) has nothing to do with the discussions in this forum and I can prove that. Let's take a look at the suicide rate in the US. According to the National Insititute of Mental Health the suicide rate decreased after 2018!

If I understand it correctly, they are trying to correlate the amount of suicides to the existence of this community. That could be true, but I don't believe it either, and in reality, this comparison of theirs is like blaming ice cream for all the accidental drownings that occur each year, just because ice cream and drownings correlate during the same time period during the summers - they simply are unable to find and compare the correct data....
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
39,131
This is an interesting post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do not have any interest in reading The New York Times pro life articles, it sounds like a lot of nonsense. Suicide is a human right which should not be so stigmatised, if someone wants to exit then that is their choice. It is cruel to try and force people to live until they die of old age. Life is unpredictable and uncertain, so something could even happen to the journalist to make them suicidal and then they would want to exit peacefully.
 
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obafgkm

Experienced
Jun 3, 2022
217
Are there many members and visitors here from the US? Why do they discuss US statistics only? My impression is that members here are from all over the world. Most have already made up there mind and come here mainly for information and to seek like minded people.

I am pro informed choice. People should be well informed of the pros and cons before making their final decision. I think a site with objective information (not angry shouting) from either side is good and not harmful to society.

Media should study social apps like TikTok if they want to find out what incite young people into doing stupid things that might result in unnecessary deaths.
 
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bed

bed

CTBed
Aug 24, 2019
919
Are there many members and visitors here from the US? Why do they discuss US statistics only? My impression is that members here are from all over the world. Most have already made up there mind and come here mainly for information and to seek like minded people.
I assume it's because the NYT is based in the US. It is quite odd though.
 
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Meretlein

Meretlein

Moderator
Feb 15, 2019
1,199
Let's not forget how they deliberately, selectively, and deceptively quote users' posts, ignoring context to make them look as bad as possible. One example was when they quoted someone responding to a question in Matthew's (head full of static) goodbye thread as saying "If you want this attempt to be a success then yes" the full quote was "If you want the attempt to be a success then yes. If you do not then no. Only you can decide". What was the reasoning for deliberately cutting someone's words short? It is quite clear that the writer of those words intended them to be read as a concrete whole.


They are the equivalent of voluntourists who build shoddy structures in developing countries. It is all about their emotional reward from "helping" people and little about doing the actual work of lessening the world's misery.

If the forum is shut down, will they do anything about the human rights tragedy of how the medical system treats suicidal people?

Will they care about helping people who are suicidal day in and day out? Or will they simply brush them aside as irrational people who need to seek help from a system that will abuse, violate, and lock them up on the suspicion that they will act on their long-term misery and suicidal thoughts.

As you said in your post if they wanted to lessen suicides restricting guns would do far more than getting rid of SS or SN. It just will not have that emotional payoff.
 
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RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,149
So one year later, we have more data to debunk the suggestive and sensationalist coverage from the NYT. So let's take a look at one of their most important claims from their 2021 article again. They basically implied since there are a lot of "young people" in this forum (referring to under 30 years old members), that we are the reason why the suicide rate of people between 15 to 24 years old were rising so much.
Here is a snippet from their article where they paint that narrative.

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So they're clearly trying to draw a connection between this site and rising suicide numbers of young people. They even created a little graph to visualize that claim.

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Okay. I mean, sure - let's ignore that this trend started in 2010 which I've highlighted in red, so I don't know why they think this trend has anything to do with us. But I've also explained that in my opening post. If you want to prove causation, you need to prove causation. You can't just point out correlation between young adults in this forum and young adults taking their lives and claim, "well it's obviously the forums fault that the rising numbers already started in 2010", when we didn't even exist back. Maybe young people are doing worse nowadays, which explains why they take their lives and why they seek to discuss their struggles in a censorship-free forum like ours - just an idea. Maybe we're not the cause of suicidality but a symptom, okay.

What's also very odd in that graph is that they don't show the total numbers of suicide for each age bracket. They show the "percentage increase", saying "each line is based on a three-year rolling average".

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Very deceptive stuff in my opinion because if you look at the raw numbers per year, the situation looks very different. See here, in this graph all lines go down, which indicates decrease of overall suicide trends.

Weird01

The red line marks the year the forum was created and you can clearly see how the suicide rate not just of 15-24 year olds but pretty much all age brackets were declining. Yeah, there is a reason why they depicted the "percentage increase" in a "three year rolling average" which is a very odd and arbritrary way to display these numbers in the first place but they also cut them off right when they decrease. It's straight up misleading and I think they did that intentionally.

But it gets even better. According to the most recent data, the suicide rate for 15-24 year olds has decreased even more drastically, from 7'126 deaths to 6'529 deaths, quite a sharp decrease, actually - according to the CDC.

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Weird, isn't it. The suicide rate of young people decreased in 2022 even though we're more popular than ever, thanks to the reporting of the media and influencers like Tantacrul who exposed this forum to a very young audience on Youtube, this guy even fought to get age restriction removed from his video so more minors could see it. So, yeah - maybe this forum doesn't really impact the numbers on a large scale, maybe it just affects the metholodogy of suicides but hey - what do I know, right?

It's extremely funny though how the NYT, one of the important news papers in the world, tried to smear us playing around with numbers that don't reflect their narrative at all and a few years later, you can clearly debunk it if you point towards the reality. Interesting journalists.

The NYT also posted this article in 2016, claiming the suicide rate "surged to a 30-year high" when the forum didn't even exist. So I guess they just recycled the alarmism when they reported on our forum, when it's convenient for them. And you know, maybe, suicide rates go down and up depending on the state of our society, there are real-life factors that affect someone's suicidality a lot more than a tiny niche forum which certainly does NOT impact the numbers on a scale.

1693176397115

But the idea that a forum like ours could be the reason why the suicide numbers go up - again it's a voluntary action of people who suffer so much, they'd rather end their life than continue one single day - it's so absurd it's almost insulting to anyone who is a member here, to anyone who ever committed suicide, to anyone is suffering out there for real reasons that affect their quality of life so much they can't bear it any longer. They're playing down the real pain that's involved in these tragic decisions. This news paper shows us everything that's wrong with this world. The inability to understand and grasp suicide as a conscious decision to find relief from suffering boggles my mind. It drives me crazy, it's something that made my life worse as someone who is actively struggling in this world. They really don't get it, huh? Just disappointing and what's worse is that all the articles that came after this NYT reporting mirrored the exact same sentiment, the exact same narrative - basically word for word, blaming us for these suicides. That's journalism for you in the 21th century, there is no nuance and no investigative research anymore, they don't want to go in depth to understand this community, they didn't ask us any questions - they'd rather listen to grieving people that are driven by hate and anger, people that give them a very one-sided story, a story in which we're the bad guys because we have to be. It's the convenient answer to a very complex and difficult topic.

Nobody holds in for a second and asks themselves, wait a minute, why do people make an account in that forum, why do they use it to discuss their struggles. What's driving them, what's the appeal. Why are they suicidal in the first place. None of these questions were asked in any of these articles that came out recently, they have covered so many tragic stories of people passing away and all of them beat around the bush. They all discuss the symptoms of suicidality, being a member of this forum, not the cause. They still conflate that. They still think we are the reason why these people died. It's disappointing and so many articles call us pro-suicide, it's absurd. Nothing in this forum indicates we're pro-suicide, which describes a stance that favors suicide over every other option. We are pro-choice, saying ending one's life to find relief from pain must be an option in a society that values human dignity and individual autonomy, is not pro-suicide. It's pro-choice and it's the only empathic stance on this conversation. You will not find one single post of mine where I've said something that's pro-suicide.

I just thought I'd update you all on the situation and bring this chapter to an end. I think it's pretty clear that the people who wrote that article are full of shit. And if we have more data on SN numbers, I'll also update this thread of mine where I discuss the SN hysteria and that's gonna be pretty interesting given the most recent coverage around that subject, which is just as sensationalist as this article here. Thanks for reading.
 
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chloramine

Mage
Apr 18, 2022
505
It's insulting to me to suggest that this place somehow made me suicidal when I wanted to die long before it existed. And like. If someone didn't want to die originally. Then why would they come here? Why would they make and account and engage here? It feels pretty obvious that the vast majority of people are going to be suicidal before getting here because that's how you find this forum. It's not like we have pop up ads in various mobile games or something.

Even without further research their are flaws with the reasoning that this forum causes people to be suicidal.

Thank you for the update and overall compilation though. It's validating to have other people see it and lay it all out like that.
 
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