Formic acid+sulphuric acid method

[Joannf]

Killer ! HCO2H+H2SO4=CO SETUP
A new day, new bets, new luck. These are the items I'll use, after yesterday's successful test, as my Portable Exit One Teleport Engine (PEOTE).
With a setup this large, the portability is of course limited... please do read my yesterday's post, and the ones before that as they explain everything.
This setup is just adapted to about ten times higher quantities, I'm guessing about 7 liters of acids each will be a good compromise between effectiveness and security, for a 10cbm room, and easily surpass 10k #PPM, especially as I'll accumulate some 4000 PPM by firing 5 kgs of charcoal charcoal hours before.
I like full measures, and this is an airtight room ;)

I may use a different receptacle for a #filter unit than the one shown on the left, it doesn't really matter - all you need do is make a hole in its side close to the bottom, stick in the hose and make sure the filtering water cannot flow out (silicone, glue, whatever). Then you fill it with either just water or, if you're a sophisticat like me, with rock wool like the piece shown, and then soap water - the idea was that I wanted to decrease the water pressure so the gas wouldn't have so much pressure to fight getting out, but that proved to have been sheer overthinking. In any case, you can use your favorite fragrance.
No acid fumes for you, it's all Chanel 5 or strawberry - whatever.

The main container is pretty ideal, I paid 50 Euros for this in the hardware store. It has a large inlet for the acids... you can heft it and shake it a bit to make the reaction lively, volume is 55 liters.
As I already stated - or did I - the #formic acid is the important substance here, the one that does the stemming... while the #sulfuric acid remains what it is, being merely a catalyte... you can let the container stand in the sun for a couple of days till the water has evaporated, and you will have regained your sheer sulfuric acid (for the next try in case you failed - only buy more formic).

P.S. - In my case, the container will be in the plastic bathtub in the bathroom, the filter in the Teleport Room, and the hose will go through the connecting wall.
I always liked the SF idea of teleporters, where you walk into a force field - and are gone...

P.P.S. - I did not actually fix the 1" hose to the containers yet, I wanted the imaging done with, I just stuck them on.
Find more info in yesterday's report, or ask.
You will have to fix them well of course, so as not to lose your #CO, and I trust that won't be a problem for your resourcefulness and ingenuity.
The gas will easily find its way, the reaction is not very violent, but acids should be handled with great care.
Like, if you forgot to wear gloves and your hands start feeling soapy - immediately submerge them in water...
"I won't need them anymore" is not a clever argument ;)

 

[Bok]

Nice work , why use rock wool? What properties does it add to the mix?

 

[Joannf]

Nice work , why use rock wool? What properties does it add to the mix?

I found some old research online, about filtering acid fumes with rock wool in industrial environments. They tested it thoroughly. It's lighter than water, and humid rock wool is a great solution - it binds acid fumes, and the objective was to find out how often it would have needed to be replaced.
I envisaged a higher filter and higher water level, and that would have meant more water pressure. You remember that we discussed pressure as a risk a few days ago - thus the rock wool/water combo solution, water only at a low level, humid rock wool above. I had also planned to place a secondary filter on top of the first, one with a layer of active coal from gas masks... I have a tendency to overthink, and that solves problems.
In this case, all I can say is that the process is not as hard as people here always seems to think it is. They're just used to buying everything ready-made in a shop.

 

[Bok]

I'm not sure about using activated coal as a filter, it has the ability to absorb co. How much co it will absorb before its saturated I don't know.

 

[Joannf]

I'm not sure about using activated coal as a filter, it has the ability to absorb co. How much co it will absorb before its saturated I don't know.

Next to none, I've tested that. It filters the acid fumes well enough water just seems to be safer because you can use mass - but it will hardly touch the CO.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Why would a larger quantity in a large container explode, while a smaller one in a small container would not ? So I found out with a small no-nonsense setup.

I used 500 mls of acids each in a 5 l empty water bottle today and another for the filter, connecte with abt 2 yards of old 1/4 inch garden hose, stuck in two holes made with a soldering iron, and tried it - this would resemble 5 liters each in a 50 liter container, correct me if I'm wrong. I chose a corner of the garden we use for compost and to deposit the wood cuts spring thru summer, and I took lots of precautions, wearing full cover rain protective gear, rubber gloves and even a diver's mask. But it was all overkill, this simple setup worked like a charm and instantly...
See how I solved the "sulfuric drop into formic" problem, I first filled in the formic, then added a small trash bag into which I poured the sulfuric, then screwed on the lid - all plastic, flexible, it kept the bag hanging suspended out of reach of the formic till I cut off the trash bag close to the lid, unscrewed the lid slightly - bingo.
The tortured bag slipped at one side, opening up and spilling the acid.
Shhhhh it went... bubbling in the filter ceased after about ten minutes, you can shake the acid bottle to start it up again, for maybe another 5 minutes, to exhaust your acids. The filter was three layers of rock 5 cm wool, bottle was then filled 1/3rd with water, added some liquid soap
I didn't bother with measuring the PPMs this time but sniffed the result and it was exactly as the soap smells, no acid fumes at all.
Understood ? Questions ?

Will look at this. When I tried with jars like in gulps thought the tubes were tight fitting but was all leaking out of them. Nothing getting to mask. Even when I taped it.

 

[Joannf]

Will look at this. When I tried with jars like in gulps thought the tubes were tight fitting but was all leaking out of them. Nothing getting to mask. Even when I taped it.

You used glass jars or what ? Tell me, important to know...
I only use plastic here, and I use a soldering iron to make the holes... make the openings smaller than the size of the hose, plastic is flexible. Then use some guey gluey stuff, like silicone from the hardware store... inside and out if possible though one side will do, to smear the remaining space.
Let it dry 24 hrs though I wasn't that patient... it's possible that some acid fumes escaped from the bottle in which I mixed the acids, and some CO but that could on;y have been traces, and if you use a mask, or if you have the acid container in one room and the filter in another, why should that even be important ?
If you don't use glue to fill tiny gaps, you will have small losses that are more significant with narrow tubes and small quantities than with big ones.
The gaps should be visible, and estimable.
I'll do a few more shots tomorrow...

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Thanks for the advice. Used glass jars with plastic lids and soldering iron like in gulps video. Thought glass safer with acids.

QUOTE="Joannf, post: 364766, member: 3206"]
You used glass jars or what ? Tell me, important to know...
I only use plastic here, and I use a soldering iron to make the holes... make the openings smaller than the size of the hose, plastic is flexible. Then use some guey gluey stuff, like silicone from the hardware store... inside and out if possible though one side will do, to smear the remaining space.
Let it dry 24 hrs though I wasn't that patient... it's possible that some acid fumes escaped from the bottle in which I mixed the acids, and some CO but that could on;y have been traces, and if you use a mask, or if you have the acid container in one room and the filter in another, why should that even be important ?
If you don't use glue to fill tiny gaps, you will have small losses that are more significant with narrow tubes and small quantities than with big ones.
The gaps should be visible, and estimable.
I'll do a few more shots tomorrow...
[/QUOTE]

 

[Joannf]

Thanks for the advice. Used glass jars with plastic lids and soldering iron like in gulps video. Thought glass safer with acids.

Sure... I watched that video too and it makes it look a bit more difficult than it is... tiny setup, that changes matters.
They also handle the two acids very squeamishly, I would advise to be just slightly more audacious...

Here's another two shots of my finished receptacles... there's 3 meters of piping missing in between.
I used the same method at both ends, insofar as the tube is inserted into the containers till it hits the opposite wall. having been amply punctured with the soldering iron - so the gas can get INto the tube inside the beige mix-container (the tube was inserted into this container this deep for one reason only : to physically stabilize it's fixation. This setup is large and weighs about 20 kgs all in all, he 1" green tubing is rather stiff).
The green pipe was wrestled into the containers after an opening had been patiently made in the walls with the soldering iron, not quite large enough... this all being plastic, items will fit very tightly when you use this method, and will also sit and stay tight, so that the glue is really just there to top things off.

In the filter container, which will be about 2/3 full with soapy water, the multiple holes in the tube should help the CO get a more thorough washing while rising through the filter in smaller bubbles... though my earlier experiment seems to show that such detail is really unnecessary.
You can see how I used hardware store glue on the joints, so as not to waste any precious substances, it's the cheap white stuff they sell in big cartridges at 2.99 ;)

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Well done. Need to study that. Too big prob for me but might try bit bigger than gulps. Will try plastic. I just used water as in video. Mask not essential for me. Just want fume washing method as simple as poss. Thanks

 

[Bok]

Sure... I watched that video too and it makes it look a bit more difficult than it is... tiny setup, that changes matters.
They also handle the two acids very squeamishly, I would advise to be just slightly more audacious...

Here's another two shots of my finished receptacles... there's 3 meters of piping missing in between.
I used the same method at both ends, insofar as the tube is inserted into the containers till it hits the opposite wall. having been amply punctured with the soldering iron - so the gas can get INto the tube inside the beige mix-container (the tube was inserted into this container this deep for one reason only : to physically stabilize it's fixation. This setup is large and weighs about 20 kgs all in all).
The green pipe was wrestled into the containers after an opening had been patiently made with the soldering iron, not quite large enough... this all being plastic, items will fit very tightly when you use this method, and will also sit and stay tight, so that the glue is really just there to top things off...

In the filter container, which will be about 2/3 full with soap water, the multiple holes should help the CO get a more thorough washing while rising through the filter... though my earlier experiment seems to show that such detail is really unnecessary.
You can see how I used hardware store glue on the joints, so as not to waste any precious substances, it's the cheap white stuff they sell in big cartridges at 2.99 ;)

Looks good. Interested to see how u pack the filter layer bet layer a photo of that will be great

 

[Bok]

Is 95% sulphuric and 95% Formica acid too strong?

 

[Joannf]

Is 95% sulphuric and 95% Formica acid too strong?

On Mixing And Acid Concentrations

I'm not a chemist, so all I can use is logic.
Basically, the concentration of the acids should only be of relative importance. The problem seems to be that there's water getting in the way because the formic acid is being split into CO and H2O, while the sulfuric acid stays with us, and is merely being diluted.
This is a point often raised, methods are being contemplated in which one acid can be most effectively mixed with the other... sulfuric acid has a higher molecular weight and will sink to the ground, while in the medium height level water will be created, to then isolate the acids from each other.
While you do nothing. But...
It has been advised to use twice the amount of sulfuric as compared to formic, but the logic of that escaped me, it might as well be the other way round, after all it's the formic acid that produces the CO, and the sulfuric acid is not diminished by the process, however people keep religiously repeating that "the sulfuric acid gets diluted by water, so you twice as much !" - but the formic acid gets destroyed, so why don't I need more of that ? It makes little sense.
Use 50/50, use what you have and high concentrated is best. In doubt, use more formic.
Low concentrations should also work but the CO output will be harder to estimate. The general estimates reckon with 85% formic levels.

I think the angst about the sulfuric acid being diluted has to do with the design of the gulps setup in the gulps video, that setup being a very fragile thing to be used very cautiously lest something flows out, and you should use a more robust setup with larger containers.
In that case, you can simply mix the acids by shaking them softly till they stop foaming, till the last molecules have met.
This may of course not be feasible if you sit there with a mask on your face, expecting to wait unmovingly...
You have to think this through. I will use a nice airtight room with the water filter, which is connected to the acid container in an adjacent room.
I will mix the gas and then, when satisfied with the process, I'll walk to the airtight room, open the door, step through and close it again.

 

[Joannf]

The last days have shown what the problem with this deteriorating forum is :
There has been an influx of drug addicts, who use the Web as a supply source and forums like this as information exchanges.
It's not at all about suicide (though drug addicts also frequently happen to be suicidal, and always have a sad story that isn't necessarily true.
Drug addicts will happily sell their mothers).
This explains the increasing number of trolls and crazies with 'inexplicable' courses of action.
If you're just a suicidal person, expect to be trolled for fun.
The admins are obviously not interested in stopping this (they could forbid and end conversations that drop hints about illegal substances, delete threads), and there are of course outsiders, like suicide popes and medical practitioners, who make a nicer profit from junkies, who will be high for many years, than from people who simply kill themselves, and are therefore bad customers.
This is a potentially big market, and to store information about people here could be a business source for the admins.
The forum may even have been founded with this in mind, but I don't know anything about that.
I would advise everybody to look closely at the other forums out there, and to study the old threads - the new ones are largely worthless.
Your privacy may be in direct danger here.
STOP TALKING about yourself, only read the available information, and DEMAND DELETION of your profiles and data !

 

[Bok]

acid.

Hi Joannf
Just a quick question, what is the' sulphuric drop into formic problem' ?
How will you over come it when you use the much large volumes.?

 

[Bok]

Would there be benefit in preheating your acids before mixing them or placing your mixing container on a bath of hot water to keep the reaction going?

 

[Joannf]

Hi Joannf
Just a quick question, what is the' sulphuric drop into formic problem' ?
How will you over come it when you use the much large volumes.?

I will let the S drop into the F ONCE, from the plastic bag, that will be the initial mix... then, the stuff will be mixing and guess what happens ?
There's S and F, and the F is split into CO and H2O. The CO leaves through the tubing and the H2O dilutes both acids.

You should understand that the S is only diluted while the F is being reacted away. See what I mean ?
The S stays... it will be there when it's all over, when the F is gone and the water has dried away, you will be left with the original amount of S.

It would therefore be moronic to use more S than F from the start. It would be much more logical to use more F, and that's what I intend to do, about 1/3rd more (because that's what I happen to have here). Now we have three substances in the container, S, F which gets less and Water which gets to be more. Nothing to be done without a complex setup, and this need be simple. So I'll do what I did with my test setup, the two simple water bottles ?
When the iniitial reaction has subsided, I'll shake the bastard as long as it takes till the last molecules of S and F have met, in spite of the water.
I may be left with 20% of the F still there, but that shouldn't matter, as I calculated amply...
In the gulp video, they handled this much more cautiously as the apparatus had to be manageable for cat ladies. Therefore, they did this "let's cautiously drop a bit of S into F and then wait. Then we do it again, then another time..."
I appreciate that many people would want to follow that process step by step, buy I prefer to understand what's going on and adapt to my circumstances...
I'm not using a mask, and just tiny volumes of acids - but even with say, a liter of each, my method would also work. Matter of taste ;)

Remember I am using an airtight room of 10 cbm into which I lead the CO (filter's in there). When the process has ended, I'll take a final lookaround, make sure I didn't leave anything switched on in the kitchen, take a deep breath and enter my room, close the door, lie down and take a deep breath.
Can you please check my calculation ?

I'll use about 9 liters of F and 7 of S, let's say 6 of the F actually react into CO. Each liter should create will create about 400 liters of CO, that would be almost 2.5 cubic meters of CO, or a quarter of the volume of the room.
In PPM, that would be how much ? Come on, help me ;)

PS If the summer goes well, I may run another test with one liter each or even more... I'll keep you updated if I do - or are you in greater urgency ?

 

[Bok]

The thing is I'm not sure of my urgency. If that makes sense. I might need it tomorrow in which case change of method.
But I do like the idea of co. What do you think of putting the mixing container in hot bath of water to keep the reaction happening?

 

[Joannf]

The thing is I'm not sure of my urgency. If that makes sense. I might need it tomorrow in which case change of method.
But I do like the idea of co. What do you think of putting the mixing container in hot bath of water to keep the reaction happening?

Okay - I'm planning for November, maybe earlier but early December latest.
Higher temperatures would fasten the reaction but not enable a better mixing - the water will still be in the way - I don't see the value of that.
Are you going to use a mask, and how much will you be using ?

 

[Bok]

Haven't thought that far , I have a small bath room with a shower, I was thinking of using two mixing containers . Outside of the bathroom with a pipe feeding through a hole in the door..Run one reaction to completion while I'm outside the bathroom . So I can shake the mixing container and manage the reaction. Then start the next mixing container and go into the bath room. Not sure how much I'm going to mix. Maybe Two liters of each in each mixing container. I am wary of mixing too much. I am worried about how strong the acid smells are as it's an apartment and worried about people smelling it.

 

[Joannf]

Haven't thought that far , I have a small bath room with a shower, I was thinking of using two mixing containers . Outside of the bathroom with a pipe feeding through a hole in the door..Run one reaction to completion while I'm outside the bathroom . So I can shake the mixing container and manage the reaction. Then start the next mixing container and go into the bath room. Not sure how much I'm going to mix. Maybe Two liters of each in each mixing container. I am wary of mixing too much. I am worried about how strong the acid smells are as it's an apartment and worried about people smelling it.

Sure... there will be some air vent in the bathroom, best to tape that over. You're basically doing what I'm doing... I had NO smell whatsoever, and I've been torturing myself about that since at least two years - I was surprised how well the water filter method is working. But the active coal filters also work well... we're probably overthinking this part. I already see myself doing a super-real test in October, and I hope I'll survive it if it's as successfull as I expect... just joking ;)

 

[Bok]

Sure... there will be some air vent in the bathroom, best to tape that over. You're basically doing what I'm doing... I had NO smell whatsoever, and I've been torturing myself about that since at least two years - I was surprised how well the water filter method is working. But the active coal filters also work well... we're probably overthinking this part. I already see myself doing a super-real test in October, and I hope I'll survive it if it's as successfull as I expect... just joking ;)

The active coal filters , do you push them into the hose between the mixing container and the water filter? Can you post a photo of them?

 

[Joannf]

The active coal filters , do you push them into the hose between the mixing container and the water filter? Can you post a photo of them?

I used to do that first... I had about 3 meters of hose and stuffed lots of filters inside but it was clumsy... I cut the tube into pieces of about one meter and used connectors but it clogged the tubing so that maybe 20% of the volume remained for the gas to pass through, what with all the stuffing. There were clearly limits to the method, so I changed to the water method. I initially planned to use both, but my latest test showed that this is unnecessary. My water filter is large and overdimensioned... by sheer volume, I try to always overkill by factor three or so.
Getting back to my yesterday's calculation, I will be using about 9 liters of formic (but the concentration may be at 80% when it happens, or 75% - this is impossible to say, so I'll assume that just 5 liters will actually react), and about 8 liters of H2SO4 (not really that relevant how much though more will not hurt). Movement is essential, I would definitely use that form of energy over thermic... so in essence I have a mix of about 15 liters in container of 55 liters - that is ample and compares to my test setup, as does the filter. I'll supply shots soon. If I manage to turn 5 liters of formic into gas, I get one hektometer of CO (one cbm), and that will fill my little 10 cbm room with 10 % or 100.000 PPM of finestkind carbon monoxide. Please tell me if I'm making some logical mistake.

 

[broken_monocle_girl]

I was told to post this in the general thread here instead of opening a new thread. I've read through this thread and figured out that I've got many things wrong - hopefully someone can correct me and then I will ask again to double check my understanding.

1) As far as I understand, the general recipe is twice as much formic acid as sulphuric acid. Is this correct?

2) What about the concentration of formic acid and sulphuric acid required? Do those, and in what way, change that recipe?

3) As for the set up, will simply emptying two bottles of sulphuric acid and then one of formic acid (edit - I was about to screw that up. should be one bottle of sulphuric and one two of formic?) in a regular plastic bucket sitting inside my car suffice?

4) Speaking of bottles, how much acid do I need? Can I have too much (and, for example, make the reaction get too hot and melt the bucket or something)?

5) will taping big, red signs over the car windows about carbon monoxide and acid suffice in not harming someone finding the vehicle, or will there be a very high concentration of CO sufficiently far from the car that someone might be injured by it because the signs aren't easily seen far enough?

 

[Joannf]

I was told to post this in the general thread here instead of opening a new thread. I've read through this thread and figured out that I've got many things wrong - hopefully someone can correct me and then I will ask again to double check my understanding.

1) As far as I understand, the general recipe is twice as much formic acid as sulphuric acid. Is this correct?

2) What about the concentration of formic acid and sulphuric acid required? Do those, and in what way, change that recipe?

3) As for the set up, will simply emptying two bottles of sulphuric acid and then one of formic acid (edit - I was about to screw that up. should be one bottle of sulphuric and one two of formic?) in a regular plastic bucket sitting inside my car suffice?

4) Speaking of bottles, how much acid do I need? Can I have too much (and, for example, make the reaction get too hot and melt the bucket or something)?

5) will taping big, red signs over the car windows about carbon monoxide and acid suffice in not harming someone finding the vehicle, or will there be a very high concentration of CO sufficiently far from the car that someone might be injured by it because the signs aren't easily seen far enough?

Thanks for doing this ;) Things get harder to find every time a new thread gets opened...

1) During the reaction, the sulphuric acid stays as is - it's a catalyte - while the formic reacts to CO and water. So you can let the whole thing dry afterwards till the water is gone, and you will have your H2SO4 back. The problem is the mix, sulphuric is heavier and sinks to the ground rather than mix... so depending on the way you mix the stuff, you can choose to use either more of one or the other. In the "Gulp' method video (it's on the thread a few posts back) they use twice as much sulfuric than formic, and let some of the S flow through the F and react, then sink to the ground, and do that again and again. That's one way to do it. On the whole I would agree that it's better to have more formic than sulphuric though.

2) It doesn't basically matter, but the lower the concentration, the more water gets in the way of the reaction. You ideally want every molecule of the F meeting another molecule of the S... and no H2O in between. The average concentration of formic mostly used is 85% - formic is unstable and deteriorates over time, I have no reliable data but it seems that 99% formic might only be 85% after two years... it's a natural process.

3) How much in cubic volume will the space you are going to use have ? Will it be airtight ? Average car will have 5 cbm max... 1 liter each well mixed can (!) produce 200-400 liters of CO, let's simplify that to 250 - that would be 5% of the total air volume in the car, or 50.000PPM. Killing you softly.

4) You need at least one five/six liter PET mineral water bottle for the mix, but a bigger container (10l) would be best. You need a tube/hose to connect that with another container that holds your water filter to remove the acid fumes. Its simple but you have to do it - it won't be nice otherwise. The reaction creates bubbles, you will have to gently shake it a bit maybe or maybe not... no need to get excited. Will reach maybe forty degrees Celsius ? And then die down. Its rather fast, maybe three minutes. You can inhale and hold the air till the reaction is mostly over, then inhale again...

5) I would suggest to get a so-called foil garage, these grey thingies that are supposed to keep your car clean and under cover, they are available just for the upper part of the car - this gives you a chance to remain unseen while you exit. Below this, you can put stickers on all windows.
I have no idea as to the mental reaction of the people who find you. You can only do your best, the rest will be up to them.

Here's some more info :
I had an accidental experience with CO from a generator and I barely got away, but there were no ill effects at all - just losing consciousness, feeling drowsy.
So I'm one of the few person in existence who can actually claim real life experience with CO... but I'd love others chiming in.

You see, what CO basically does it is what Nitrogen (N as opposed to "N") does, where you exchange the Oxygen you breathe for Nitrogen, and so you slowly run out of Oxygen, go dizzy and die. The process is the same with CO, only that CO does not replace the Oxygen at the nose level, but at the cell level, using a smarter process. But the effect is the exact same. One might wonder why we do not hear of headaches and 'convulsions' from N users, though I'm not concerned about the convulsions really - when animals pass out, they tend to have muscle twitches, and "convulsion" sounds so much more deliciously ominous. I think that if you spend time in a low-Oxygen environment (that also tends to contain CO), you will get headaches simply from lack of Oxygen rather than contact with CO... so the effects mentioned likely have NO direct connection to CO, for the simple reason that this makes no logical sense.
CO does not hurt. You never know what hits you.

800 ppm - Dizziness, nausea and convulsions within 45 minutes. Unconsciousness within 2 hours. Death within 2-3 hours. Maximum air-free concentration from gas kitchen ranges (ANSI).

1600 ppm - Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death within 1 hour. Smoldering wood fires, malfunctioning furnaces, water heaters, and kitchen ranges typically produce concentrations exceeding 1,600 ppm.

** I daresay that if you make sure that you have ample Oxygen in your bedroom, and a stable 1600PPM CO-supply, you would peacefully go to sleep and never wake up again. People who experience such CO levels, however usually experience them under a severe absence of Oxygen, which will cause headaches.
This doesn't need to happen. CO will bind to the hemoglobin of your blood at least 200 times better than Oxygen, so you can have all the Oxygen you want, to make sure all goes well. Is this plausible ? Does this make sense to you ?

3200 ppm - Concentration inside charcoal grill (Greiner, single example). Headache, dizziness and nausea within 5-20 minutes. Quickly impaired thinking. Death within 30 minutes.

6400 ppm - Headache, dizziness and nausea within 1-2 minutes. Thinking impaired before response possible. Death within 10-15 minutes.

12,800 ppm - Death within 1-3 minutes

35,000 ppm - Measured tailpipe exhaust concentration from warm carbureted gasoline engines without catalytic converters. (Greiner, unpublished field study, January 1997)

70,000 ppm - Typical tailpipe exhaust concentrations from cold gasoline engine during the first minute of a cold weather start. Concentrations decreased to 2 ppm after 17 minutes of running. (Greiner, unpublished field studies, January 1997.)

 

[Zzzzz]

Can someone explain the water bath thing to me? It seems complicated to me. Is there a simpler way to filter out the fumes?

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi
V helpful post. So you can just shake acids together. Several times ideally not just once. Sorry if im asking very stupid questions but just to be totally clear, for the fume wash, the acids are fed into the water. Plain water should be ok although you add some other thinga. Can either have another tube out or just leave container open. Thanks.

TE="Joannf, post: 372900, member: 3206"]
Thanks for doing this ;) Things get harder to find every time a new thread gets opened...

1) During the reaction, the sulphuric acid stays as is - it's a catalyte - while the formic reacts to CO and water. So you can let the whole thing dry afterwards till the water is gone, and you will have your H2SO4 back. The problem is the mix, sulphuric is heavier and sinks to the ground rather than mix... so depending on the way you mix the stuff, you can choose to use either more of one or the other. In the "Gulp' method video (it's on the thread a few posts back) they use twice as much sulfuric than formic, and let some of the S flow through the F and react, then sink to the ground, and do that again and again. That's one way to do it. On the whole I would agree that it's better to have more formic than sulphuric though.

2) It doesn't basically matter, but the lower the concentration, the more water gets in the way of the reaction. You ideally want every molecule of the F meeting another molecule of the S... and no H2O in between. The average concentration of formic mostly used is 85% - formic is unstable and deteriorates over time, I have no reliable data but it seems that 99% formic might only be 85% after two years... it's a natural process.

3) How much in cubic volume will the space you are going to use have ? Will it be airtight ? Average car will have 5 cbm max... 1 liter each well mixed can (!) produce 200-400 liters of CO, let's simplify that to 250 - that would be 5% of the total air volume in the car, or 50.000PPM. Killing you softly.

4) You need at least one five/six liter PET mineral water bottle for the mix, but a bigger container (10l) would be best. You need a tube/hose to connect that with another container that holds your water filter to remove the acid fumes. Its simple but you have to do it - it won't be nice otherwise. The reaction creates bubbles, you will have to gently shake it a bit maybe or maybe not... no need to get excited. Will reach maybe forty degrees Celsius ? And then die down. Its rather fast, maybe three minutes. You can inhale and hold the air till the reaction is mostly over, then inhale again...

5) I would suggest to get a so-called foil garage, these grey thingies that are supposed to keep your car clean and under cover, they are available just for the upper part of the car - this gives you a chance to remain unseen while you exit. Below this, you can put stickers on all windows.
I have no idea as to the mental reaction of the people who find you. You can only do your best, the rest will be up to them.

Here's some more info :
I had an accidental experience with CO from a generator and I barely got away, but there were no ill effects at all - just losing consciousness, feeling drowsy.
So I'm one of the few person in existence who can actually claim real life experience with CO... but I'd love others chiming in.

You see, what CO basically does it is what Nitrogen (N as opposed to "N") does, where you exchange the Oxygen you breathe for Nitrogen, and so you slowly run out of Oxygen, go dizzy and die. The process is the same with CO, only that CO does not replace the Oxygen at the nose level, but at the cell level, using a smarter process. But the effect is the exact same. One might wonder why we do not hear of headaches and 'convulsions' from N users, though I'm not concerned about the convulsions really - when animals pass out, they tend to have muscle twitches, and "convulsion" sounds so much more deliciously ominous. I think that if you spend time in a low-Oxygen environment (that also tends to contain CO), you will get headaches simply from lack of Oxygen rather than contact with CO... so the effects mentioned likely have NO direct connection to CO, for the simple reason that this makes no logical sense.
CO does not hurt. You never know what hits you.

800 ppm - Dizziness, nausea and convulsions within 45 minutes. Unconsciousness within 2 hours. Death within 2-3 hours. Maximum air-free concentration from gas kitchen ranges (ANSI).

1600 ppm - Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death within 1 hour. Smoldering wood fires, malfunctioning furnaces, water heaters, and kitchen ranges typically produce concentrations exceeding 1,600 ppm.

** I daresay that if you make sure that you have ample Oxygen in your bedroom, and a stable 1600PPM CO-supply, you would peacefully go to sleep and never wake up again. People who experience such CO levels, however usually experience them under a severe absence of Oxygen, which will cause headaches.
This doesn't need to happen. CO will bind to the hemoglobin of your blood at least 200 times better than Oxygen, so you can have all the Oxygen you want, to make sure all goes well. Is this plausible ? Does this make sense to you ?

3200 ppm - Concentration inside charcoal grill (Greiner, single example). Headache, dizziness and nausea within 5-20 minutes. Quickly impaired thinking. Death within 30 minutes.

6400 ppm - Headache, dizziness and nausea within 1-2 minutes. Thinking impaired before response possible. Death within 10-15 minutes.

12,800 ppm - Death within 1-3 minutes

35,000 ppm - Measured tailpipe exhaust concentration from warm carbureted gasoline engines without catalytic converters. (Greiner, unpublished field study, January 1997)

70,000 ppm - Typical tailpipe exhaust concentrations from cold gasoline engine during the first minute of a cold weather start. Concentrations decreased to 2 ppm after 17 minutes of running. (Greiner, unpublished field studies, January 1997.)
[/QUOTE]

 

[Joannf]

Hi
V helpful post. So you can just shake acids together. Several times ideally not just once. Sorry if im asking very stupid questions but just to be totally clear, for the fume wash, the acids are fed into the water. Plain water should be ok although you add some other thinga. Can either have another tube out or just leave container open. Thanks.

TE="Joannf, post: 372900, member: 3206"]
Thanks for doing this ;) Things get harder to find every time a new thread gets opened...

1) During the reaction, the sulphuric acid stays as is - it's a catalyte - while the formic reacts to CO and water. So you can let the whole thing dry afterwards till the water is gone, and you will have your H2SO4 back. The problem is the mix, sulphuric is heavier and sinks to the ground rather than mix... so depending on the way you mix the stuff, you can choose to use either more of one or the other. In the "Gulp' method video (it's on the thread a few posts back) they use twice as much sulfuric than formic, and let some of the S flow through the F and react, then sink to the ground, and do that again and again. That's one way to do it. On the whole I would agree that it's better to have more formic than sulphuric though.

2) It doesn't basically matter, but the lower the concentration, the more water gets in the way of the reaction. You ideally want every molecule of the F meeting another molecule of the S... and no H2O in between. The average concentration of formic mostly used is 85% - formic is unstable and deteriorates over time, I have no reliable data but it seems that 99% formic might only be 85% after two years... it's a natural process.

3) How much in cubic volume will the space you are going to use have ? Will it be airtight ? Average car will have 5 cbm max... 1 liter each well mixed can (!) produce 200-400 liters of CO, let's simplify that to 250 - that would be 5% of the total air volume in the car, or 50.000PPM. Killing you softly.

4) You need at least one five/six liter PET mineral water bottle for the mix, but a bigger container (10l) would be best. You need a tube/hose to connect that with another container that holds your water filter to remove the acid fumes. Its simple but you have to do it - it won't be nice otherwise. The reaction creates bubbles, you will have to gently shake it a bit maybe or maybe not... no need to get excited. Will reach maybe forty degrees Celsius ? And then die down. Its rather fast, maybe three minutes. You can inhale and hold the air till the reaction is mostly over, then inhale again...

5) I would suggest to get a so-called foil garage, these grey thingies that are supposed to keep your car clean and under cover, they are available just for the upper part of the car - this gives you a chance to remain unseen while you exit. Below this, you can put stickers on all windows.
I have no idea as to the mental reaction of the people who find you. You can only do your best, the rest will be up to them.

Here's some more info :
I had an accidental experience with CO from a generator and I barely got away, but there were no ill effects at all - just losing consciousness, feeling drowsy.
So I'm one of the few person in existence who can actually claim real life experience with CO... but I'd love others chiming in.

You see, what CO basically does it is what Nitrogen (N as opposed to "N") does, where you exchange the Oxygen you breathe for Nitrogen, and so you slowly run out of Oxygen, go dizzy and die. The process is the same with CO, only that CO does not replace the Oxygen at the nose level, but at the cell level, using a smarter process. But the effect is the exact same. One might wonder why we do not hear of headaches and 'convulsions' from N users, though I'm not concerned about the convulsions really - when animals pass out, they tend to have muscle twitches, and "convulsion" sounds so much more deliciously ominous. I think that if you spend time in a low-Oxygen environment (that also tends to contain CO), you will get headaches simply from lack of Oxygen rather than contact with CO... so the effects mentioned likely have NO direct connection to CO, for the simple reason that this makes no logical sense.
CO does not hurt. You never know what hits you.

800 ppm - Dizziness, nausea and convulsions within 45 minutes. Unconsciousness within 2 hours. Death within 2-3 hours. Maximum air-free concentration from gas kitchen ranges (ANSI).

1600 ppm - Headache, dizziness and nausea within 20 minutes. Death within 1 hour. Smoldering wood fires, malfunctioning furnaces, water heaters, and kitchen ranges typically produce concentrations exceeding 1,600 ppm.

** I daresay that if you make sure that you have ample Oxygen in your bedroom, and a stable 1600PPM CO-supply, you would peacefully go to sleep and never wake up again. People who experience such CO levels, however usually experience them under a severe absence of Oxygen, which will cause headaches.
This doesn't need to happen. CO will bind to the hemoglobin of your blood at least 200 times better than Oxygen, so you can have all the Oxygen you want, to make sure all goes well. Is this plausible ? Does this make sense to you ?

3200 ppm - Concentration inside charcoal grill (Greiner, single example). Headache, dizziness and nausea within 5-20 minutes. Quickly impaired thinking. Death within 30 minutes.

6400 ppm - Headache, dizziness and nausea within 1-2 minutes. Thinking impaired before response possible. Death within 10-15 minutes.

12,800 ppm - Death within 1-3 minutes

35,000 ppm - Measured tailpipe exhaust concentration from warm carbureted gasoline engines without catalytic converters. (Greiner, unpublished field study, January 1997)

70,000 ppm - Typical tailpipe exhaust concentrations from cold gasoline engine during the first minute of a cold weather start. Concentrations decreased to 2 ppm after 17 minutes of running. (Greiner, unpublished field studies, January 1997.)

[/QUOTE]

Questions are not stupid but I'd wish you would go back a few posts on this thread and watch all the photographs I shared in several posts, and look at the tests I made. It is all basically there.
Please ask me questions after looking at these posts, you will be better informed by then.

 

[Bok]

Hi Joannf

I have been thinking about the design of your system . Which I like but I see one problem with it. The hose coming into the filter is below the water level for a longish section so it runs the risk of filling with water either while waiting to start the reaction or if the reaction slows to a point that the pressure is lower than the water pressure . Then the hose will fill with water . Hope u can follow my thinking .

 

[Joannf]

Hi Joannf

I have been thinking about the design of your system . Which I like but I see one problem with it. The hose coming into the filter is below the water level for a longish section so it runs the risk of filling with water either while waiting to start the reaction or if the reaction slows to a point that the pressure is lower than the water pressure . Then the hose will fill with water . Hope u can follow my thinking .

Yes, of course.
My setup is in two different rooms, the tubing goes through the wall at a height of about 1 meter then lowers again, to reach ground level at about half a meter from the filter case, so that is the stretch of the hose that will fill with water. It's not much. Also, I keep three fat layers of rock wool inside the filter case, that's half its height. The rock wool's effect, with the additional soap (base) is that it replaces water volume, thereby enabling a higher-stacked filter area withou unnecessary water pressure, it also will cause the fume bubbles to further dissipate into smaller units, using the available water effectively, so that I can fill it to about half only and be done with it. There will be about twenty liters of water in the filter container, which can take a volume of 40 liters.

Hey @cappucinogirl, I hope I didnt piss you off yesterday - I have so little time, and I'm a very logical person.
I have been experimenting with fixing leaks, and I need to know what you did to decide what the problem were/are and how to avoid them.
There was a girl here who had some problem with that, but she was using glass jars like in the GULPS video.
Plastic is better. There is generally no need to take that video literally...