Formic acid+sulphuric acid method

[Joannf]

Did a couple of additional photos... first, the filter container from above, you can see the three fat rock wool layers.
This is not precision work, you just stuff them on top, they will hold abt ten liters of water - shortly before use, you should add another 15 (this is a big container, used to filter gas from at least 9 liters of Formic acid).

Second shot, here's active carbon filters used in kitchen extractor hoods (amazon). This is a fibrous stuff that you can cut into handy pieces and use as a filter inside the tubing - my first try which landed me with 3 meters of the green 1" tubes. It works well but I found it too unreliable with the large amount of acids I will use.
You may have seen my setup in the earlier posts here, it is large... but for 1 liter of acids each, the method should be workable.
The filters are very hard to push inside the tubing though, I can tell you that ;)
I will use a layer or two on top of the extractor hood filter though, just because I have them lying around...

Third shot is a metal jerrycan of the type I carry with me for ambulant use, these are ideal if you want to mix about 2 or three liters, they are easily shut and tightened (not possible as easily with the plastic gas canisters). Make sure you get a fitting filler neck !

 

[Bok]

Hi Joan , the charcoal in the pipe did it not block the flow of co? And as much as. I like e metal jerry can in sure Formica acid reacts with with metal for that reason I prefer your plastic container.

 

[Enomis]

Can anyone explain to me why at 7:30 minute it is counted 1-2-3 three times? I don't understand English well and this is not clear to me. What does this count refer to? Thanks

 

[Lennox]

Can anyone explain to me why at 7:30 minute it is counted 1-2-3 three times? I don't understand English well and this is not clear to me. What does this count refer to? Thanks

I'm not sure either, but my supposition is that he's referring to the moment he lays the jar containing the acids on its side to mix them: He lays (the jar) then counts 1-2-3, He pauses (the jar on the laid position) then counts 1-2-3, He stands (the jar) and counts 1-2-3.

But anyway, I don't trust the setup of this video (the GULPS generator) very much, I think they use too small quantities of the acids. I recommend you read this whole thread from the beginning and see how others are doing the mixing of the acids, often with much bigger quantities than the ones used in this video.

 

[Enomis]

I'm not sure either, but my supposition is that he's referring to the moment he lays the jar containing the acids on its side to mix them: He lays (the jar) then counts 1-2-3, He pauses (the jar on the laid position) then counts 1-2-3, He stands (the jar) and counts 1-2-3.

But anyway, I don't trust the setup of this video (the GULPS generator) very much, I think they use too small quantities of the acids. I recommend you read this whole thread from the beginning and see how others are doing the mixing of the acids, often with much bigger quantities than the ones used in this video.

My doubt remains: if it is necessary to wait for the acids to mix, it would be enough to count 1-2-3 once and then turn the jar upright (I don't understand why to count 1-2-3 three times).

I read the whole thread but the GULPS system is the only one that uses a mask (the other systems provide more or less small rooms).
In PPeH the monoxide generator is tested inside a small car and 150ml of formic acid and 250ml of sulfuric acid are used (and are measured over 10,000 ppm).

Thanks for the reply Lennox

 

[Lennox]

I honestly don't know either why would it be necessary to count either, I believe in isn't. Once you mix the acids it's done, no need for counting.

I personally don't trust much the PPeH experiment measurements. They don't even mention the dimensions of the inside of the car where they performed the experiment.
There was someone on this thread who claims to have mixed one liter of both acids inside a car and still survived. But there's possible reasons for this, for one, at the same time that carbon monoxide is generated, also water is generated, and the water gets in the way of the reaction, slowing in it down and also causing part of the formic acid not to react with the sulfuric acid.

In my personal CTB'ing I'll go way above 150/250ml, just to be sure.

 

[Enomis]

I honestly don't know either why would it be necessary to count either, I believe in isn't. Once you mix the acids it's done, no need for counting.

I personally don't trust much the PPeH experiment measurements. They don't even mention the dimensions of the inside of the car where they performed the experiment.
There was someone on this thread who claims to have mixed one liter of both acids inside a car and still survived. But there's possible reasons for this, for one, at the same time that carbon monoxide is generated, also water is generated, and the water gets in the way of the reaction, slowing in it down and also causing part of the formic acid not to react with the sulfuric acid.

In my personal CTB'ing I'll go way above 150/250ml, just to be sure.

Yes, I read about that CTB attempt. 1L of formic acid and 2L of sulfuric acid with 5 glass jars and two 10L plastic cans. Managing all these elements at the same time seems really very complicated to me. Too many elements to understand what went wrong.

I believe it is essential to make tests and take measurements with a measuring instrument

 

[cappuccinogirl]

HI

Yes the amounts used in gulps do seem low. P pill amounts seem better

Just trying to summarise in really simple terms how you acid wash (necessary due to acid fumes) Ppl on here know a lot but it gets confusing especially if ppl not feeling well.

Generally twice as much sulfuric
acid to formic. Exit says 150 and 250 ml.
Can use glass or plastic (hdpe or ldpe)
One container to mix acids. Make hole with soldering iron. Fit plastic tube (size) as tight as you can. Can use sealant. Will easily leak I found. Feed to container half full with water. Can add soap?? What kind? And rock wool ? Presumably water ok on its own to keep simple. Tube goes into water. Assume you'd have to be careful firmly fixed so stays under water. Can either seal to try and use mask or just leave open.
- to mix acids. Exit has some kind of drip mechanism. Gulp video lays on side and counts as a means to control reaction he says. Neither explain much. Joannf post here says to just shake together. Just shake a few times and leave? You dont have to keep shaking? Unclear if would be a problem to just pour together.

If done right levels go higher than charcoal so quicker. No clear quantity of acids, different opinions etc though.
Any input welcome.

Yes, of course.
My setup is in two different rooms, the tubing goes through the wall at a height of about 1 meter then lowers again, to reach ground level at about half a meter from the filter case, so that is the stretch of the hose that will fill with water. It's not much. Also, I keep three fat layers of rock wool inside the filter case, that's half its height. The rock wool's effect, with the additional soap (base) is that it replaces water volume, thereby enabling a higher-stacked filter area withou unnecessary water pressure, it also will cause the fume bubbles to further dissipate into smaller units, using the available water effectively, so that I can fill it to about half only and be done with it. There will be about twenty liters of water in the filter container, which can take a volume of 40 liters.

Hey @cappucinogirl, I hope I didnt piss you off yesterday - I have so little time, and I'm a very logical person.
I have been experimenting with fixing leaks, and I need to know what you did to decide what the problem were/are and how to avoid them.
There was a girl here who had some problem with that, but she was using glass jars like in the GULPS video.
Plastic is better. There is generally no need to take that video literally...

 

[Enomis]

Does anyone know if formic acid and sorforic acid have an expiration date? (the ones I ordered have no date but I had read something about an expiration date a while ago)

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Formic acid degrades. Think sulphuric lasts longer.

 

[Enomis]

Formic acid degrades. Think sulphuric lasts longer.

Thanks for the reply cappuccinogirl
Then comes the problem of knowing how old formic acid is :-(

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi did a little test at fume wash. Levels from pot with acids in maxed the meter but levels from water container much less. Should the tube go into the acids, mine was above acid level. What am I doing wrong. ? Used sealant so dont think it was leakinf. Couldn't tell how bad smell was as did outside. Be verygrateful for any help.

 

[Lennox]

Hi did a little test at fume wash. Levels from pot with acids in maxed the meter but levels from water container much less. Should the tube go into the acids, mine was above acid level. What am I doing wrong. ? Used sealant so dont think it was leakinf. Couldn't tell how bad smell was as did outside. Be verygrateful for any help.

When you say that levels 'maxed the meter', do you mean you're using a CO measuring device? I'm not sure of what you mean when you say 'but levels from water container much less' . Are you talking about CO levels? It is my understanding that all that should be happening in the water container is the gas bubbling to the surface.
One thing I know for sure is that the tube should indeed be above acid level.

 

[cappuccinogirl]

When you say that lefvels 'maxed the meter', do you mean you're using a CO measuring device? I'm not sure of what you mean when you say 'but levels from water container much less' . Are you talking about CO levels? It is my understanding that all that should be happening in the water container is the gas bubbling to the surface.
One thing I know for sure is that the tube should indeed be above acid level.

Thanks v much for that. Acids in container maxed a 1000 ppm meter. But meter didn't pick up any c monoxide from other end of tube and didn't get any bubbling. Tried a bigger tube and still nothing. Seemed to be leak on acid container despite sealant where tube inserted but I think I sealed that ... and still nothing. Water tub leaks a bit . Shame you can't just use the acids without water wash, that's so simple. Will check tube is above acids. Only using 125 ml / 75 ml acids or 250/ 125 on tests. Thanks again

 

[GeorgeJL]

I honestly don't know either why would it be necessary to count either, I believe in isn't. Once you mix the acids it's done, no need for counting.

I personally don't trust much the PPeH experiment measurements. They don't even mention the dimensions of the inside of the car where they performed the experiment.
There was someone on this thread who claims to have mixed one liter of both acids inside a car and still survived. But there's possible reasons for this, for one, at the same time that carbon monoxide is generated, also water is generated, and the water gets in the way of the reaction, slowing in it down and also causing part of the formic acid not to react with the sulfuric acid.

In my personal CTB'ing I'll go way above 150/250ml, just to be sure.

Do you have the post where this person survived?

 

[Lennox]

Thanks v much for that. Acids in container maxed a 1000 ppm meter. But meter didn't pick up any c monoxide from other end of tube and didn't get any bubbling. Tried a bigger tube and still nothing. Seemed to be leak on acid container despite sealant where tube inserted but I think I sealed that ... and still nothing. Water tub leaks a bit . Shame you can't just use the acids without water wash, that's so simple. Will check tube is above acids. Only using 125 ml / 75 ml acids or 250/ 125 on tests. Thanks again

Yes, definitely there should be bubbling. There must be leaks somewhere, either on the tube, the wholes where it's connected to the containers, or the lid. Or maybe there isn't enough acid to produce the bubbling? If the acids are of very low concentration, it could be it.

Do you have the post where this person survived?

Yes. Post #587, page 20 of the "Carbon monoxide megathread". I'm pasting it below:

I tried suicide by combining formic acid and sulfuric acid, to create carbon monoxide in a car and i want to share my experience. I hope my report will someone save from a horrible fate.

First of all, after what i have experienced, i would nobody advise to kill themself with that method. The risk is to high to survive and being brain-damaged. I dont know how i have survived, and even almost unharmed. After all what i have read, i should be dead. I still cannot entire believe that i have survived. And it makes me very sad that i am still alive. I wish it had gone as I had hoped.

I will report as detailed as possible.

I buyed one litre 85% of technical purity formic acid and two litre 95% of technical purity sulfuric acid on the internet.
I also buyed five 2 litre jars with a cap, two 10 litre plastic water cans, tubes and a oxygen mask. My aim was to build two carbon monoxid generators like the gulps machine. You can look a video about it on vimeo.

I made at home a hole in every jar cap and pulled a 6mm tube in it. The jars had the purpose to store the acids. The other side of the tube endet in one of the water cans. The water cans were filled to the half with water to absorb the fumes from the acids. To one water canister were two jars attached, to the other three jars. To the water canister with the two jars i had attached a oxygen mask and closed the cap. So that all carbon monoxide had to flow through the oxygen mask directly to my mouth. The water canister where the three jars were attached i let the cap open. So the carbon monoxid can exit the water canister there. After it was deep night, i drove to the forest with my stuff.

I parked my small car. With a duct tape, i closed all the vent holes, except the vent holes near the floor. After that i took the seats in the horizontal position. I put the two water canisters in the footwell of the front seat-passanger and put the jars on the ground, in front of the seat-passanger door. Than i opened the formic acid. I was glad that i had safety glasses and silicone protective gloves. In every of the jars i put about 200ml of formic acid. I smelled the fumes. It smells like vinegar. After that i opened one of the sulfuric acid bottles and put about 400ml in two jars and 200ml in one jar. The reaction begun instantly. I opened the second sulfuric acid bottle and filled the remaining jars. After that i pulled 3 jars in the footwell of the front seat-passanger and two jars on the seat of the passanger. I went to the driver seat. Put the oxygen mask on my mouth and noticed that air came from the mask. But i smelled nothing. I layed back on the seat and waited to die. After about 5 seconds i fell a little bit unwell. After 8 seconds my eyes begun to close. After 10 seconds i was sleeping.
I dreamed nothing. My life did not flashed before my eyes.

After two hours i woked up. I were not able to think normal. I thought i will be brain-damaged now. I know now how brain-damaged people feel. I was very angry that i were not dead. And i was very afraid that i would be brain-damaged now. I just wanted to die. I tried to set my car in fire to die. I tried to burn the passanger seat with a lighter. But now i know they are fireproof. I begun to realize that i will not die now. So i opened the windows and layed on the seat. I had no power, the easiest things, like searching for my smartphone, made me exhausted. I had headaches and was sick. I had not vomited but in the sleep i pissed myself. After about an hour, i were able to put the acids out of the car. The car smelled after formic acid. It was unbearable. I were not able to move for the next 6 hours. I feel now dumber. Something had happened with my brain. I dont know how i were able to survive this. After what happened to me, i will never do suicide with carbon monoxide again and i cannot recommend it to anyone.

 

[Enomis]

Thanks v much for that. Acids in container maxed a 1000 ppm meter. But meter didn't pick up any c monoxide from other end of tube and didn't get any bubbling. Tried a bigger tube and still nothing. Seemed to be leak on acid container despite sealant where tube inserted but I think I sealed that ... and still nothing. Water tub leaks a bit . Shame you can't just use the acids without water wash, that's so simple. Will check tube is above acids. Only using 125 ml / 75 ml acids or 250/ 125 on tests. Thanks again

Hi cappuccinogirl ..... Can you please explain your test in more detail? Are you using the gulp method with two glass containers? With what quantities of acids? Which monoxide meter are you using? How do you measure the carbon monoxide inside the container of the two acids? (you wrote that the carbon monoxide level was 1000 ppm). Thanks for the explanations you want to give us. Is it possible to show photos?

 

[GeorgeJL]

@Lennox I saw that post you were talking about. Makes me think I shouldn't use this method. Do you think this method can work under certain conditions?

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi cappuccinogirl ..... Can you please explain your test in more detail? Are you using the gulp method with two glass containers? With what quantities of acids? Which monoxide meter are you using? How do you measure the carbon monoxide inside the container of the two acids? (you wrote that the carbon monoxide level was 1000 ppm). Thanks for the explanations you want to give us. Is it possible to show photos?

Ah thanks v much. No not gulps. Just mixing acids (shake them a bit) in a container with tube from top of container going to tub of water. Tube above acid level. Using sealant for tube inserts but still doesn't seem to be totally sealed. On tests using either 125 / 75 ml acids or 250/ 125. Concentration of acid must be ok as produces c monoxide in container ok. 1000 ppm meter. I just undo lid briefly and meter shoots up ( testing in garden) . Just no bubbling and no c monoxide from other end of tube going sideways into below water level. Tried 1.6 cm tube. Can only think of leaks so try more silicone sealant? Or not enough acid. But only got certain amount and gulps said only small amount. Will try and get photo. Has anyone else done successful tests? Thanks v much.

 

[Lennox]

@Lennox I saw that post you were talking about. Makes me think I shouldn't use this method. Do you think this method can work under certain conditions?

Well I'm no expert, his account made me hesitant too. I don't quite know what to make of it, maybe his car had more holes than he realized? @Joannf, who seems to be more of an expert in this method than any of us, said somewhere (paraphrasing) that she considered the terms of his account hard to believe.

I think the toxicity levels of carbon monoxide (CO) are very well-documented. If levels of 1% of CO in the air are reached and maintained for at least a few minutes (maybe 10, and then naturally start dropping), it should work.

Ultimately that failure account made me decide to use way more acids than in theory necessary. If I go with this method I'll use five liters of each acid in an airtight room of 8.6 cubic meters. And at the same time, on top of that, I'll take SN.

I say if I go with this method, because recently I started to study the hydrogen sulfide gas method ("detergent suicide") and saw that it requires a concentration in the air 10 times inferior than that of CO (which allows me to overkill way more) , and also causes unconsciousness in seconds. I'm waiting for chemicals to arrive and will conduct tests next week. If I can reach a fast and sustainable reaction I'll likely switch methods.

 

[Enomis]

Ah thanks v much. No not gulps. Just mixing acids (shake them a bit) in a container with tube from top of container going to tub of water. Tube above acid level. Using sealant for tube inserts but still doesn't seem to be totally sealed. On tests using either 125 / 75 ml acids or 250/ 125. Concentration of acid must be ok as produces c monoxide in container ok. 1000 ppm meter. I just undo lid briefly and meter shoots up ( testing in garden) . Just no bubbling and no c monoxide from other end of tube going sideways into below water level. Tried 1.6 cm tube. Can only think of leaks so try more silicone sealant? Or not enough acid. But only got certain amount and gulps said only small amount. Will try and get photo. Has anyone else done successful tests? Thanks v much.

Strange that there is no bubbling. I had the idea that it was a feature of this method. Does it depend on the acids you are using? What concentration do they have?

I'm evaluating which carbon monoxide meter to buy (there are so many prices). I found one that has 2000 ppm full scale

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Strange that there is no bubbling. I had the idea that it was a feature of this method. Does it depend on the acids you are using? What concentration do they have?

I'm evaluating which carbon monoxide meter to buy (there are so many prices). I found one that has 2000 ppm full scale

Hi Thanks. Did get a tiny bit bubbling once .... sulphuric 96 %. APC formic. Can only pile more sealant on for any leaks or use more acid. Unless im doing something stupid somewhere i havent thought of. Sounds simple until you try it.
What's the name of the 2000 meter? Would say some kind of meter important to give you a bit of a clue what's happening. Ru doing tests yet? Thanks again.

 

[Lennox]

About the CO meters, there's one called "TPI 707 Carbon Monoxide Analyzer" which can reach 10000 ppm (ten thousand ppm), if you have the money to spend. It's the only one I could find which reaches the levels we need to work with.

707 Carbon Monoxide Analyzer | TPI USA

 

[Enomis]

Hi Thanks. Did get a tiny bit bubbling once .... sulphuric 96 %. APC formic. Can only pile more sealant on for any leaks or use more acid. Unless im doing something stupid somewhere i havent thought of. Sounds simple until you try it.
What's the name of the 2000 meter? Would say some kind of meter important to give you a bit of a clue what's happening. Ru doing tests yet? Thanks again.

Is APC formic 85%?
The carbon monoxide meter at 2000 ppm: https://www.testo.com/en-UK/testo-317-3/p/0632-3173

About the CO meters, there's one called "TPI 707 Carbon Monoxide Analyzer" which can reach 10000 ppm (ten thousand ppm), if you have the money to spend. It's the only one I could find which reaches the levels we need to work with.

707 Carbon Monoxide Analyzer | TPI USA

I know that meter ... it is mentioned in the PPH. But it's really expensive. But it would be the best for what we need. I was thinking of solving by doing tests in a room 10 times bigger than a car (which will probably be my final choice) and using a wifi camera to read the values on my iphone: Amazon product ASIN B019175DMW

 

[cappuccinogirl]

Hi Yes formic 85% so should be ok I believe. What sort it containers etc are you planning on. ? Thanks

 

[GeorgeJL]

Well I'm no expert, his account made me hesitant too. I don't quite know what to make of it, maybe his car had more holes than he realized? @Joannf, who seems to be more of an expert in this method than any of us, said somewhere (paraphrasing) that she considered the terms of his account hard to believe.

I think the toxicity levels of carbon monoxide (CO) are very well-documented. If levels of 1% of CO in the air are reached and maintained for at least a few minutes (maybe 10, and then naturally start dropping), it should work.

Ultimately that failure account made me decide to use way more acids than in theory necessary. If I go with this method I'll use five liters of each acid in an airtight room of 8.6 cubic meters. And at the same time, on top of that, I'll take SN.

I say if I go with this method, because recently I started to study the hydrogen sulfide gas method ("detergent suicide") and saw that it requires a concentration in the air 10 times inferior than that of CO (which allows me to overkill way more) , and also causes unconsciousness in seconds. I'm waiting for chemicals to arrive and will conduct tests next week. If I can reach a fast and sustainable reaction I'll likely switch methods.

If CO levels are too high doesn't it cause a painful death?

 

[Enomis]

Hi Yes formic 85% so should be ok I believe. What sort it containers etc are you planning on. ? Thanks

For my final solution I am thinking of using two systems. The first is similar to the GULP: two glass jars and an oxygen mask. The second is similar to that described in the PPH but with slightly higher amounts of acids and with a water bath. On the materials I'm looking for information because the second method is a little more complex

 

[Lennox]

If CO levels are too high doesn't it cause a painful death?

The information I found so far only tells that, above 12800ppm (1.28%) of concentration in the air, unconsciousness should occur in 2-3 breaths. So, my belief is that since I'll be already unconscious I'll feel nothing even when double of that concentration is reached. Is there info somewhere talking about pain in concentrations higher than 1% ?

 

[GeorgeJL]

The information I found so far only tells that, above 12800ppm (1.28%) of concentration in the air, unconsciousness should occur in 2-3 breaths. So, my belief is that since I'll be already unconscious I'll feel nothing even when double of that concentration is reached. Is there info somewhere talking about pain in concentrations higher than 1% ?

I would read about really bad symptoms and I guess I just assumed that from concentrations that are too high. But perhaps those are when the concentrations are very low for a long period of time.

 

[GeorgeJL]

The information I found so far only tells that, above 12800ppm (1.28%) of concentration in the air, unconsciousness should occur in 2-3 breaths. So, my belief is that since I'll be already unconscious I'll feel nothing even when double of that concentration is reached. Is there info somewhere talking about pain in concentrations higher than 1% ?

I found this on wikipedia.

Effects of carbon monoxide in relation to the concentration in parts per million in the air:[22][23]
Concentration Symptoms
35 ppm (0.0035%), (0.035‰) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
100 ppm (0.01%), (0.1‰) Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm (0.02%), (0.2‰) Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment
400 ppm (0.04%), (0.4‰) Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm (0.08%), (0.8‰) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours
1,600 ppm (0.16%), (1.6‰) Headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
3,200 ppm (0.32%), (3.2‰) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm (0.64%), (6.4‰) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm (1.28%), (12.8‰) Unconsciousness after 2–3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.

Given all this the faster and higher concentration the better probably. Even still a concentration of 1.28% is relatively low.