Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Mare Imbrium]

What a kind, loving and understanding final paragraph. Thank you.

TiredHorse is gone long time ago.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

I am currently considering ctb'ing with an exit bag, primarily because I can't afford SCUBA, SCBA or the hood. I have searched the board and read a lot about it and I am a bit confused. There seem to be quiet a lot of failures with the bag, in some cases the attempts followed the recommendations but still failed.
Also I am not sure about the correct flow rate of nitrogen for example. Most recommendations (PPeH) suggest 15l/minute, but there are some users who say it should be at last 20l in the case of nitrogen (1 and somewhere here in this tread). I know FromGermany had not the best reputation, but in this case he backs up his claim with sources. Anyone has any thoughts about this?

 

[DeadHead]

Can't get search function to work, what particular wench do we need? Adjustable smooth-jawed?
Had no idea there were so many different kinds.

 

[outrider567]

I am currently considering ctb'ing with an exit bag, primarily because I can't afford SCUBA, SCBA or the hood. I have searched the board and read a lot about it and I am a bit confused. There seem to be quiet a lot of failures with the bag, in some cases the attempts followed the recommendations but still failed.
Also I am not sure about the correct flow rate of nitrogen for example. Most recommendations (PPeH) suggest 15l/minute, but there are some users who say it should be at last 20l in the case of nitrogen (1 and somewhere here in this tread). I know FromGermany had not the best reputation, but in this case he backs up his claim with sources. Anyone has any thoughts about this?

15 LPM is perfectly fine as per Greenberg, Vizzy used 20 LPM--Nothing wrong with using 25 LPM if you have any doubts

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

15 LPM is perfectly fine as per Greenberg, Vizzy used 20 LPM--Nothing wrong with using 25 LPM if you have any doubts

Thank you for your quick reply!

Is there, like in the SN thread, somewhere a collection of successful attempts with the exit bag? It seems to me that most of the people going for inert gas choose an upgrade like SCUBA/SCBA or EEBD.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Thank you for your quick reply!

Is there, like in the SN thread, somewhere a collection of successful attempts with the exit bag? It seems to me that most of the people going for inert gas choose an upgrade like SCUBA/SCBA or EEBD.

I was talking in another thread about Fentanyl patches, and I mentioned a guidebook I came across, called 'Guide to a Self-chosen and Humane Death', that mentioned fentanyl patches. It also has a chapter on helium and the exit bag. On another thread, a guy was on about using a helium balloon canister and a plastic bag. So I linked the chapter from that guidebook for him, if he wanted to check it out. I'll link it below for you too in case you want to look at it, cause it mentions a stat of over 120 people dying from the exit bag and helium over 4 years.

But be warned, on that thread with the other guy, people warned him not to use a helium balloon canister in case it was not 100% purity, and also warned him to use a regulator, which he wasn't going to use.
I'll link that thread below if you haven't already seen it.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/helium-my-plan-no-regulator.144624/

I haven't heard of a thread of successful attempts. Over the weekend I was looking back at some of the older pages on this thread. A few pages back, one guy showed what looked like police death-scene photos of 2 guys who ctb. One guy used what looks like a black bin bag. I'll link it here, but be warned, it's a graphic photo. The poster uses a spoiler button. I haven't come across any other successful exit bag stuff, but I haven't done an extensive search.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/page-129#post-2172034

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

So you mean that if we are rescued during suicide and before complete death, there is a possibility of brain damage due to oxygen reaching the brain.
1- What is the percentage of this happening
2- How much time is required to die with helium and nitrogen
3- Does helium or nitrogen gas have to be 100% pure
4- Is this type of death painless

2) The peaceful pill handbook says 5-10 mins.

In 2008, Dignitas did an inert gas trial of 4 people (they usually use pentobarbital when doing assisted suicide), where they hooked up helium to a face mask. The times it took to lose consciousness, and die, are shown here:
View attachment 124236

I would take this numbers with a grain of salt because the subjects (since Dignitas helped) were probably terminally ill and very old at least and therefore very frail. But even if it takes younger/healthier people longer, it's still a very short amount of time.

 

[Yuna is My Waifu]

I was talking in another thread about Fentanyl patches, and I mentioned a guidebook I came across, called 'Guide to a Self-chosen and Humane Death', that mentioned fentanyl patches. It also has a chapter on helium and the exit bag. On another thread, a guy was on about using a helium balloon canister and a plastic bag. So I linked the chapter from that guidebook for him, if he wanted to check it out. I'll link it below for you too in case you want to look at it, cause it mentions a stat of over 120 people dying from the exit bag and helium over 4 years.

But be warned, on that thread with the other guy, people warned him not to use a helium balloon canister in case it was not 100% purity, and also warned him to use a regulator, which he wasn't going to use.
I'll link that thread below if you haven't already seen it.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/helium-my-plan-no-regulator.144624/

I haven't heard of a thread of successful attempts. Over the weekend I was looking back at some of the older pages on this thread. A few pages back, one guy showed what looked like police death-scene pictures of 2 guys who ctb. One only used a black bin bag. I'll link it here, but be warned, it's a graphic picture. The poster uses a spoiler button. I haven't come across any other successful exit bag stuff, but I haven't done an extensive search.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/page-129#post-2172034

That was very informative thank you

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

I would take this numbers with a grain of salt because the subjects (since Dignitas helped) were probably terminally ill and very old at least and therefore very frail. But even if it takes younger/healthier people longer, it's still a very short amount of time.

On the other hand, in the study they used masks without a perfect seal. So a little bit of oxygen might have slipped in prolonging the process. I think all the methods found in this thread are more effective, because they all prevent oxygen from slipping in.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

I am currently pondering which method I should use. After searching the board and reading about the methods, it seems to me that SCBA would be the most foolproof method, especially because it guarantees that no air enters (because of the positive pressure). So that in theory should mean that even if the face muscles relax a bit in the case of unconsciousness, the seal remains intact.

The upgraded SCUBA method described by @befree in his thread seems to come in as a close second. Here there is a non positive pressure which means the mask has to be strapped on tight to prevent any air from entering. This mask uses no mouthpiece, so mouth and nose breathing is possible. I am not sure about the viability of the cheaper basic version which is also described where a mask with a mouthpiece is used. There is another tutorial for this method in another thread. First, there seems to be no consensus if the mouthpiece should be used or removed. Second, the mask blocks breathing through the nose. On the other hand, this method has been used successfully at least once. In this paper it is mentioned that the person used a 6l nitrogen tank and that the remainind pressure was 87 bar. If one assumes that the tank started with 200 bar (or 150) doesn't this mean it took quite a while for him to die as opposed to theory? Remember, the breathing apparatus only works on demand, so if one does not breathe, no nitrogen flows from the cylinder. So I'm not sure if the basic SCUBA version is superior to the simple exit bag.

Another questions regarding masks and SCBA/SCUBA that I have is the breathing resistance: If one is unconscious, isn't the breathing weaker? Is it still guaranteed that if one breathes shallower that the nitrogen is entering the mask?

So i think I might aim for the classic bag, although I am not sure yet.

I also was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction via PM regarding which gear is viable for SCBA.

 

[Tears in Rain]

I also was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction via PM regarding which gear is viable for SCBA.

Don't know anything about SCBA gear, but I came across the megathread before:

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/gasmonkey-setup-nitrogen-scba.115434/

 

[WrongWayGoBack]

dont post sources as it burns it down for others

its not big enough. go 9 litres

Do a search on Chinese sites. Read Vizzy's post which will point you in the right direction.

Oops. Sorry. Well it arrived, so buying a tank of N2 online in Australia is no hassle. As far as not being enough, I hear you in that if I mess up the exit bag and it leaks in oxygen from outside it won't be enough. But 16 minutes of solid flow seems enough considering in tests most subjects stopped breathing after 5 minutes.

As expected, now that I have the method secured the desire to use it right away has passed. This is probably momentary, I will probably use it sometime in the next month. I'll post when I do so that folks can learn whether or not 16 minutes is enough.

 

[alwayssearching202]

I live in the US in a place with suppliers that cater to home brewers. Websites indicate they sell beer kits as well as Nitrogen canisters. I know welding shops are often suggested but I am a terrible poker player and would feel very out of my element and now sure I could pull it off. I think I could get by going into a brewing store and say I'm buying a kit + supplies for my non existent partner for Christmas.

Would this be believable? I'd buy a beer kit + the filled nitrogen canister. This is the 5 lb canister and regulator available. Will these work?

 

[Tears in Rain]

Gas Regulators
I was looking back over this megathread, and I was getting confused about the gas regulators. Then I copped that the SCBA and SCUBA setups don't use a normal gas regulator that people use for an exit bag or EEBD hoods. There's specific SCBA and SCUBA regulators that are used, because the gas only flows into the SCBA and SCUBA masks as the person breathes in.

With the exit bag and EEBD hood, the gas is constantly flowing until the gas runs out of the cylinder. So a normal gas regulator is used for these.

I thought it might be worth posting about this for newbies like me. Here are some pics( hope the posters don't mind me using their pics):

No regulator- helium cannister attached directly to an exit bag- not recommended:



Exit bag tubing attached to a regulator that has litres per minute (LPM) readings on a guage:



EEBD hood attached to a regulator with an LPM flowmeter:



SCBA mask and regulator:


Attaching the SCBA regulator to an adapter (adapter needed to go between the regulator and cylinder):


Full SCBA setup:




SCUBA mask and regulators (one regulator built into valve at front of mask, one at end of hose):


SCUBA regulator attached to an adapter, which is attached to the cylinder (adapter is needed for SCBA and SCUBA setups):

 

[Tears in Rain]

This is the 5 lb canister and regulator available. Will these work?

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

 

[MG_39]

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

 

[Tears in Rain]

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

Way above my pay grade!

 

[Intoxicated]

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

 

[Tears in Rain]

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

Yikes!

 

[alwayssearching202]

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

As usual you are appreciated and your responses so helpful! Looking at the size of the canister in comparison to those in other threads, I can only assume it is enough. But I am finding it quite common in the US for canisters to be advertised in lbs and Google has been of little help converting.

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

 

[Intoxicated]

273.15 °K is 0 °C that is a relatively cold temperature. The estimated volume would be 2000 L at 28 °C, if 5 lb is the actual weight of nitrogen.

 

[Tears in Rain]

As usual you are appreciated and your responses so helpful! Looking at the size of the canister in comparison to those in other threads, I can only assume it is enough. But I am finding it quite common in the US for canisters to be advertised in lbs and Google has been of little help converting.

Did a quick Google search there. One website advertising 5lb nitrogen said "5 lb cylinder...holds 14.5 cu. ft. of Nitrogen",
whereas another website said "Nitrogen Cylinder 5 lbs. / 20 Cubic Feet".

So it varied, and there's a bit of a difference in the 2 sizes. Might be worth checking the website to see if it gives it in cubic feet.

For 14.5 or 20 cu/ft, going by that thread I linked above:
-14.5 cubic feet = 411 litres. if you use 15 LPM, that gives about 27.5 minutes of gas. (411/15 =27.4)
-20 cubic feet = 566 litres. That gives about 38 mins of gas. (566/15 = 37.7).

If you use 20 LPM or 25 LPM the gas will obviously be used up quicker.

 

[Intoxicated]

Did a quick Google search there. One website advertising 5lb nitrogen said "5 lb cylinder...holds 14.5 cu. ft. of Nitrogen"

Yeah, specifying the weight of the cylinder without nitrogen seems more logical.

 

[Tears in Rain]

For 14.5 or 20 cu/ft, going by that thread I linked above:
-14.5 cubic feet = 411 litres. if you use 15 LPM, that gives about 27.5 minutes of gas. (411/15 =27.4)
-20 cubic feet = 566 litres. That gives about 38 mins of gas. (566/15 = 37.7).

If you use 20 LPM or 25 LPM the gas will obviously be used up quicker.

The above post about amount of gas and 15lpm is obviously only for exit bag or a hood, not SCUBA or SCUBA.

 

[ftm68_99]

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

I am sorry, but what is PAS? Thanks.

 

[CPY]

Could someone clarify a thing for me

For the EEBD hood method you don't need the adapter thing to be able to hook the cilinder to the breathing apparatus, right?

The cilinders in my area all W 21,7

 

[FailerQt.]

So exactly what I was afraid of, the tubing doesn't fit (it's extremely loose) without some kind of connector. I even tried to make sure and asked several times here if it'll work/what size to get for my regulator, but it doesn't fit anyway. So if anybody could help, I'd really appreciate it. Even better would be a DM with source to the exact thing I need be it different tube or way to connect it. (EU)
Thanks in advance!

This is the regulator I have and a 6mm PVC tube

 

[Tears in Rain]

Could someone clarify a thing for me

For the EEBD hood method you don't need the adapter thing to be able to hook the cilinder to the breathing apparatus, right?

The cilinders in my area all W 21,7

Nope, from what I've seen on this thread, you don't need an adapter. You can cut the metal thing off the end of the hood hose, then attach the hose to a gas regulator, which attaches to the cylinder.

 

[Username1]

Could someone clarify a thing for me

For the EEBD hood method you don't need the adapter thing to be able to hook the cilinder to the breathing apparatus, right?

The cilinders in my area all W 21,7

Hose clamps can be used to connect the EEBD hood to the gas flow regulator. You may not have enough hose length, then you can extend it using an additional hose, hose connector and hose clamps

You can read the manual that vizzy made

It seems some EEBD hoods can be connected to the regulator in a more elegant way, there are adapters for them, but I'm not versed in that

I have discovered the name of the quick couplers used in SCBA and some EEBD Hoods, they are called "Breathing air couplings". They are not compatible with the typical compressed air couplings and they're usually available for in 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" thread sizes.

This couplers enable the connection of EEBD hoods with such plugs directly to inert gas regulators (in EU most of them have G1/4" outlets).​

Here's an example of how to use the adapter:

Here's my Rescue Hood setup:

- 9 Litre nitrogen cylinder(200 bar)
( BS341 no. 3, 5/8" BSP(British standard) outlet )

- Argon regulator with flow meter. (BSP/British standards - G 5/8" BSP inlet (to cylinder). G 3/8" BSP outlet (to coupling)
(~12.5lpm argon =15lpm nitrogen; will probably use 15lpm argon, = ~ 18lpm nitrogen).

- Rescue hood with 1 metre hose (CEN-type hose plug, compatible with CEJN 340 series and rectus 95 ks series couplings /couplers).

-Rectus 95ks female 3/8" BSP (British standard) coupling /coupler

- Adjustable wrench

View attachment 119901
View attachment 119902
View attachment 119903
View attachment 119904


View attachment 119907
View attachment 119906

Total cost(including postage) : approx €600(euros)
Cost breakdown in euros (approx) :
- 9L Nitrogen cylinder : €200
- Argon regulator with flow-meter: €110
- Rectus 95ks female coupling /coupler: €90
- Rescue Hood : €200
- (will also spend -~€15 on straps to strap to armchair)

 

[Readytogohome]

So exactly what I was afraid of, the tubing doesn't fit (it's extremely loose) without some kind of connector. I even tried to make sure and asked several times here if it'll work/what size to get for my regulator, but it doesn't fit anyway. So if anybody could help, I'd really appreciate it. Even better would be a DM with source to the exact thing I need be it different tube or way to connect it. (EU)
Thanks in advance!

This is the regulator I have and a 6mm PVC tube

I'm using oxygen tubing.

Nope, from what I've seen on this thread, you don't need an adapter. You can cut the metal thing off the end of the hood hose, then attach the hose to a gas regulator, which attaches to the cylinder.

Yes, that's right, I think Vizzy did the same thing and successfully ctb.