Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[ClownWorld2023]

I'm doing Liquid Nitrogen in a confined space

Have you sourced the LN2 yet and tested it?

Does it have any side effects like the room temperature rapidly dropping or even freezing?

 

[outrider567]

So you mean that if we are rescued during suicide and before complete death, there is a possibility of brain damage due to oxygen reaching the brain.
1- What is the percentage of this happening
2- How much time is required to die with helium and nitrogen
3- Does helium or nitrogen gas have to be 100% pure
4- Is this type of death painless

It will never happen with me, rescue before death would be impossible--My body won't be discovered for many days--When I text the few people I know, I only text them every few days--No one will get suspicious for many days, maybe a week

 

[jatty]

Hey guys, is it okay to use a 70% argon + 20% co2 flowmeter/ regulator for a nitrogen tank? The one I'm looking at looks (to me) exactly the same as rejected's. I'm just worried if the co2 calibration can mess up the lpm. Thanks

 

[ftm68_99]

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for someone attempting this method to have.

The idea behind using an exit bag with inert gas is to create an atmosphere around your head that is both free of life-sustaining O2 and can carry away the exhaled CO2 that would activate your hypercapnic alarm.

The Gas:

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you'll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas. In the past this would have been helium (He), but due to the uncertain availability of genuinely pure He, the best current options are nitrogen (N2) and argon (Ar). Both are reliably available in pure form (no air contamination) from stores that supply welders. N2 is also available from some brewery supply houses, but the purity of the gas should be confirmed to your satisfaction. Both N2 and Ar should work to ctb and are similar enough in their properties to be treated identically for use with an exit bag.

Pressurized gas cylinder sizes are not standardized across the industry, nor internationally, and it can be difficult, if not impossible, to tell how much gas they contain from a photograph on a website.

In the US, a 20 cubic foot (cf) cylinder is the smallest you should use for ctb; a 40cf will allow some margin for flinching, practicing, etc. "A 20cf" and "a 40cf", or "a 20" and "a 40" is nomenclature US welding supply houses will recognize, so asking for either should get you the desired product. A 20cf cylinder is quite small for industrial use; I've had clerks tell me, "well, we have a 40, but we'll need to special order a 20." It's up to you what you do in that situation. Personally, I have a 40cf cylinder. It has allowed me to flinch and abort my attempt three times now, and I don't need to worry about refilling it. I bought my N2 at AirGas, a national company here in the US. They do not demand any sort of professional certification for purchasing inert gas, and no more than the usual forms of ID depending on payment method.

I know nothing of gas cylinders outside the US, so if you are using other than US-typical cylinders, you'll need to call and ask to make sure whatever tank you're contemplating holds 600L of compressed gas. Hopefully knowledgeable forum members will add cylinder sizing information to this knowledge base.

Cover story: N2 and Ar are both used for welding. N2 is used in beer brewing. In my day job, I use both N2 and Ar to flood partial cans of expensive paint, to displace the O2 in the cans and prevent the paint from skinning over and going bad. It's a cost saving measure. The clerks I've bought gas from have never heard of that trick, which has meant they don't know enough to interrogate me on my motives or to try and quiz me on my welding knowledge. They have merely said, "huh! That's a new one!"

The store clerk may ask how you're carrying the pressurized cylinder "back to your shop," since pressurized cylinders can be very hazardous to transport (the valve is vulnerable to damage in an accident). I haven't had any trouble when I have told the clerk, "in the back footwell of my car, and very carefully padded!" What they really want to know is that you are aware that a pressurized cylinder is a missile waiting to explode if anything damages it, and that you know enough to not let that happen.

Is there a regulator or some sort that we would use to make sure the gas is flowing at 15 liters per minute? Thanks.

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for someone attempting this method to have.

The idea behind using an exit bag with inert gas is to create an atmosphere around your head that is both free of life-sustaining O2 and can carry away the exhaled CO2 that would activate your hypercapnic alarm.

The Gas:

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you'll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas. In the past this would have been helium (He), but due to the uncertain availability of genuinely pure He, the best current options are nitrogen (N2) and argon (Ar). Both are reliably available in pure form (no air contamination) from stores that supply welders. N2 is also available from some brewery supply houses, but the purity of the gas should be confirmed to your satisfaction. Both N2 and Ar should work to ctb and are similar enough in their properties to be treated identically for use with an exit bag.

Pressurized gas cylinder sizes are not standardized across the industry, nor internationally, and it can be difficult, if not impossible, to tell how much gas they contain from a photograph on a website.

In the US, a 20 cubic foot (cf) cylinder is the smallest you should use for ctb; a 40cf will allow some margin for flinching, practicing, etc. "A 20cf" and "a 40cf", or "a 20" and "a 40" is nomenclature US welding supply houses will recognize, so asking for either should get you the desired product. A 20cf cylinder is quite small for industrial use; I've had clerks tell me, "well, we have a 40, but we'll need to special order a 20." It's up to you what you do in that situation. Personally, I have a 40cf cylinder. It has allowed me to flinch and abort my attempt three times now, and I don't need to worry about refilling it. I bought my N2 at AirGas, a national company here in the US. They do not demand any sort of professional certification for purchasing inert gas, and no more than the usual forms of ID depending on payment method.

I know nothing of gas cylinders outside the US, so if you are using other than US-typical cylinders, you'll need to call and ask to make sure whatever tank you're contemplating holds 600L of compressed gas. Hopefully knowledgeable forum members will add cylinder sizing information to this knowledge base.

Cover story: N2 and Ar are both used for welding. N2 is used in beer brewing. In my day job, I use both N2 and Ar to flood partial cans of expensive paint, to displace the O2 in the cans and prevent the paint from skinning over and going bad. It's a cost saving measure. The clerks I've bought gas from have never heard of that trick, which has meant they don't know enough to interrogate me on my motives or to try and quiz me on my welding knowledge. They have merely said, "huh! That's a new one!"

The store clerk may ask how you're carrying the pressurized cylinder "back to your shop," since pressurized cylinders can be very hazardous to transport (the valve is vulnerable to damage in an accident). I haven't had any trouble when I have told the clerk, "in the back footwell of my car, and very carefully padded!" What they really want to know is that you are aware that a pressurized cylinder is a missile waiting to explode if anything damages it, and that you know enough to not let that happen.

Sorry, I see you answered my question about the regulator in the next post.

 

[ftm68_99]

My experience was that I soon began to feel tingling in my hands, as if they were falling asleep. A short moment later I began to get dizzy, and my vision went grey around the edges. Each of the three times I have attempted this method, that's as far as I got before I flinched and removed the bag.

I did not experience any pain whatsoever, and no real discomfort aside from the mild tingling in my hands.

I do not believe I have suffered any ill effects from three aborted attempts. I had a bit of a cough for a couple days after my third attempt, but I can't say for sure whether that was attributable to the N2. It concerns me only in that this method demands that you be able to breathe freely in order for it to be effective, and I don't want to have ruined my chances to use it later, when I have summoned my courage.

My greatest difficulty is that I have been very stressed during my attempts, and could not keep my breathing steady and deep. This undoubtedly lengthened the amount of time it should have taken for me to black out.

In the stress of the situation, I experienced time dilation —in other words, I can't tell you how long it took for me to feel dizzy; it might have been five seconds, it might have been a minute and a half. It wasn't very long —but it was long enough for me to flinch.

From my experience, this is as painless, comfortable, and potentially peaceful a way to ctb as it is rumored to be. The only drawbacks that I can see are that it requires a lot of equipment —cylinder, regulator, hose, bag— and that there is a surprising amount of time for your survival instinct to kick in, or for second thoughts.

As I wrote at the beginning, I hope other forum members can fill in some of the blanks I have left —specifically, I have seen a lot of questions about tank sizes outside the US that I cannot answer.

I don't wish anyone good luck at catching the bus. I wish we could all find our way to a joyous and satisfying life that would make death an unfortunate reality rather than a longed-for relief. But all of us here know that the Fates aren't always that kind, and so I wish you all the most peaceful relief from your pain that you can find, and if that peace is brought by Death, I hope Death comes gently.

What a kind, loving and understanding final paragraph. Thank you.

 

[Mare Imbrium]

What a kind, loving and understanding final paragraph. Thank you.

TiredHorse is gone long time ago.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

I am currently considering ctb'ing with an exit bag, primarily because I can't afford SCUBA, SCBA or the hood. I have searched the board and read a lot about it and I am a bit confused. There seem to be quiet a lot of failures with the bag, in some cases the attempts followed the recommendations but still failed.
Also I am not sure about the correct flow rate of nitrogen for example. Most recommendations (PPeH) suggest 15l/minute, but there are some users who say it should be at last 20l in the case of nitrogen (1 and somewhere here in this tread). I know FromGermany had not the best reputation, but in this case he backs up his claim with sources. Anyone has any thoughts about this?

 

[DeadHead]

Can't get search function to work, what particular wench do we need? Adjustable smooth-jawed?
Had no idea there were so many different kinds.

 

[outrider567]

I am currently considering ctb'ing with an exit bag, primarily because I can't afford SCUBA, SCBA or the hood. I have searched the board and read a lot about it and I am a bit confused. There seem to be quiet a lot of failures with the bag, in some cases the attempts followed the recommendations but still failed.
Also I am not sure about the correct flow rate of nitrogen for example. Most recommendations (PPeH) suggest 15l/minute, but there are some users who say it should be at last 20l in the case of nitrogen (1 and somewhere here in this tread). I know FromGermany had not the best reputation, but in this case he backs up his claim with sources. Anyone has any thoughts about this?

15 LPM is perfectly fine as per Greenberg, Vizzy used 20 LPM--Nothing wrong with using 25 LPM if you have any doubts

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

15 LPM is perfectly fine as per Greenberg, Vizzy used 20 LPM--Nothing wrong with using 25 LPM if you have any doubts

Thank you for your quick reply!

Is there, like in the SN thread, somewhere a collection of successful attempts with the exit bag? It seems to me that most of the people going for inert gas choose an upgrade like SCUBA/SCBA or EEBD.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Thank you for your quick reply!

Is there, like in the SN thread, somewhere a collection of successful attempts with the exit bag? It seems to me that most of the people going for inert gas choose an upgrade like SCUBA/SCBA or EEBD.

I was talking in another thread about Fentanyl patches, and I mentioned a guidebook I came across, called 'Guide to a Self-chosen and Humane Death', that mentioned fentanyl patches. It also has a chapter on helium and the exit bag. On another thread, a guy was on about using a helium balloon canister and a plastic bag. So I linked the chapter from that guidebook for him, if he wanted to check it out. I'll link it below for you too in case you want to look at it, cause it mentions a stat of over 120 people dying from the exit bag and helium over 4 years.

But be warned, on that thread with the other guy, people warned him not to use a helium balloon canister in case it was not 100% purity, and also warned him to use a regulator, which he wasn't going to use.
I'll link that thread below if you haven't already seen it.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/helium-my-plan-no-regulator.144624/

I haven't heard of a thread of successful attempts. Over the weekend I was looking back at some of the older pages on this thread. A few pages back, one guy showed what looked like police death-scene photos of 2 guys who ctb. One guy used what looks like a black bin bag. I'll link it here, but be warned, it's a graphic photo. The poster uses a spoiler button. I haven't come across any other successful exit bag stuff, but I haven't done an extensive search.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/page-129#post-2172034

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

So you mean that if we are rescued during suicide and before complete death, there is a possibility of brain damage due to oxygen reaching the brain.
1- What is the percentage of this happening
2- How much time is required to die with helium and nitrogen
3- Does helium or nitrogen gas have to be 100% pure
4- Is this type of death painless

2) The peaceful pill handbook says 5-10 mins.

In 2008, Dignitas did an inert gas trial of 4 people (they usually use pentobarbital when doing assisted suicide), where they hooked up helium to a face mask. The times it took to lose consciousness, and die, are shown here:
View attachment 124236

I would take this numbers with a grain of salt because the subjects (since Dignitas helped) were probably terminally ill and very old at least and therefore very frail. But even if it takes younger/healthier people longer, it's still a very short amount of time.

 

[Yuna is My Waifu]

I was talking in another thread about Fentanyl patches, and I mentioned a guidebook I came across, called 'Guide to a Self-chosen and Humane Death', that mentioned fentanyl patches. It also has a chapter on helium and the exit bag. On another thread, a guy was on about using a helium balloon canister and a plastic bag. So I linked the chapter from that guidebook for him, if he wanted to check it out. I'll link it below for you too in case you want to look at it, cause it mentions a stat of over 120 people dying from the exit bag and helium over 4 years.

But be warned, on that thread with the other guy, people warned him not to use a helium balloon canister in case it was not 100% purity, and also warned him to use a regulator, which he wasn't going to use.
I'll link that thread below if you haven't already seen it.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/helium-my-plan-no-regulator.144624/

I haven't heard of a thread of successful attempts. Over the weekend I was looking back at some of the older pages on this thread. A few pages back, one guy showed what looked like police death-scene pictures of 2 guys who ctb. One only used a black bin bag. I'll link it here, but be warned, it's a graphic picture. The poster uses a spoiler button. I haven't come across any other successful exit bag stuff, but I haven't done an extensive search.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/page-129#post-2172034

That was very informative thank you

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

I would take this numbers with a grain of salt because the subjects (since Dignitas helped) were probably terminally ill and very old at least and therefore very frail. But even if it takes younger/healthier people longer, it's still a very short amount of time.

On the other hand, in the study they used masks without a perfect seal. So a little bit of oxygen might have slipped in prolonging the process. I think all the methods found in this thread are more effective, because they all prevent oxygen from slipping in.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

I am currently pondering which method I should use. After searching the board and reading about the methods, it seems to me that SCBA would be the most foolproof method, especially because it guarantees that no air enters (because of the positive pressure). So that in theory should mean that even if the face muscles relax a bit in the case of unconsciousness, the seal remains intact.

The upgraded SCUBA method described by @befree in his thread seems to come in as a close second. Here there is a non positive pressure which means the mask has to be strapped on tight to prevent any air from entering. This mask uses no mouthpiece, so mouth and nose breathing is possible. I am not sure about the viability of the cheaper basic version which is also described where a mask with a mouthpiece is used. There is another tutorial for this method in another thread. First, there seems to be no consensus if the mouthpiece should be used or removed. Second, the mask blocks breathing through the nose. On the other hand, this method has been used successfully at least once. In this paper it is mentioned that the person used a 6l nitrogen tank and that the remainind pressure was 87 bar. If one assumes that the tank started with 200 bar (or 150) doesn't this mean it took quite a while for him to die as opposed to theory? Remember, the breathing apparatus only works on demand, so if one does not breathe, no nitrogen flows from the cylinder. So I'm not sure if the basic SCUBA version is superior to the simple exit bag.

Another questions regarding masks and SCBA/SCUBA that I have is the breathing resistance: If one is unconscious, isn't the breathing weaker? Is it still guaranteed that if one breathes shallower that the nitrogen is entering the mask?

So i think I might aim for the classic bag, although I am not sure yet.

I also was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction via PM regarding which gear is viable for SCBA.

 

[Tears in Rain]

I also was wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction via PM regarding which gear is viable for SCBA.

Don't know anything about SCBA gear, but I came across the megathread before:

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/gasmonkey-setup-nitrogen-scba.115434/

 

[WrongWayGoBack]

dont post sources as it burns it down for others

its not big enough. go 9 litres

Do a search on Chinese sites. Read Vizzy's post which will point you in the right direction.

Oops. Sorry. Well it arrived, so buying a tank of N2 online in Australia is no hassle. As far as not being enough, I hear you in that if I mess up the exit bag and it leaks in oxygen from outside it won't be enough. But 16 minutes of solid flow seems enough considering in tests most subjects stopped breathing after 5 minutes.

As expected, now that I have the method secured the desire to use it right away has passed. This is probably momentary, I will probably use it sometime in the next month. I'll post when I do so that folks can learn whether or not 16 minutes is enough.

 

[alwayssearching202]

I live in the US in a place with suppliers that cater to home brewers. Websites indicate they sell beer kits as well as Nitrogen canisters. I know welding shops are often suggested but I am a terrible poker player and would feel very out of my element and now sure I could pull it off. I think I could get by going into a brewing store and say I'm buying a kit + supplies for my non existent partner for Christmas.

Would this be believable? I'd buy a beer kit + the filled nitrogen canister. This is the 5 lb canister and regulator available. Will these work?

 

[Tears in Rain]

Gas Regulators
I was looking back over this megathread, and I was getting confused about the gas regulators. Then I copped that the SCBA and SCUBA setups don't use a normal gas regulator that people use for an exit bag or EEBD hoods. There's specific SCBA and SCUBA regulators that are used, because the gas only flows into the SCBA and SCUBA masks as the person breathes in.

With the exit bag and EEBD hood, the gas is constantly flowing until the gas runs out of the cylinder. So a normal gas regulator is used for these.

I thought it might be worth posting about this for newbies like me. Here are some pics( hope the posters don't mind me using their pics):

No regulator- helium cannister attached directly to an exit bag- not recommended:



Exit bag tubing attached to a regulator that has litres per minute (LPM) readings on a guage:



EEBD hood attached to a regulator with an LPM flowmeter:



SCBA mask and regulator:


Attaching the SCBA regulator to an adapter (adapter needed to go between the regulator and cylinder):


Full SCBA setup:




SCUBA mask and regulators (one regulator built into valve at front of mask, one at end of hose):


SCUBA regulator attached to an adapter, which is attached to the cylinder (adapter is needed for SCBA and SCUBA setups):

 

[Tears in Rain]

This is the 5 lb canister and regulator available. Will these work?

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

 

[MG_39]

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

 

[Tears in Rain]

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

Way above my pay grade!

 

[Intoxicated]

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

 

[Tears in Rain]

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

Yikes!

 

[alwayssearching202]

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

As usual you are appreciated and your responses so helpful! Looking at the size of the canister in comparison to those in other threads, I can only assume it is enough. But I am finding it quite common in the US for canisters to be advertised in lbs and Google has been of little help converting.

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

 

[Intoxicated]

273.15 °K is 0 °C that is a relatively cold temperature. The estimated volume would be 2000 L at 28 °C, if 5 lb is the actual weight of nitrogen.

 

[Tears in Rain]

As usual you are appreciated and your responses so helpful! Looking at the size of the canister in comparison to those in other threads, I can only assume it is enough. But I am finding it quite common in the US for canisters to be advertised in lbs and Google has been of little help converting.

Did a quick Google search there. One website advertising 5lb nitrogen said "5 lb cylinder...holds 14.5 cu. ft. of Nitrogen",
whereas another website said "Nitrogen Cylinder 5 lbs. / 20 Cubic Feet".

So it varied, and there's a bit of a difference in the 2 sizes. Might be worth checking the website to see if it gives it in cubic feet.

For 14.5 or 20 cu/ft, going by that thread I linked above:
-14.5 cubic feet = 411 litres. if you use 15 LPM, that gives about 27.5 minutes of gas. (411/15 =27.4)
-20 cubic feet = 566 litres. That gives about 38 mins of gas. (566/15 = 37.7).

If you use 20 LPM or 25 LPM the gas will obviously be used up quicker.

 

[Intoxicated]

Did a quick Google search there. One website advertising 5lb nitrogen said "5 lb cylinder...holds 14.5 cu. ft. of Nitrogen"

Yeah, specifying the weight of the cylinder without nitrogen seems more logical.

 

[Tears in Rain]

For 14.5 or 20 cu/ft, going by that thread I linked above:
-14.5 cubic feet = 411 litres. if you use 15 LPM, that gives about 27.5 minutes of gas. (411/15 =27.4)
-20 cubic feet = 566 litres. That gives about 38 mins of gas. (566/15 = 37.7).

If you use 20 LPM or 25 LPM the gas will obviously be used up quicker.

The above post about amount of gas and 15lpm is obviously only for exit bag or a hood, not SCUBA or SCUBA.

 

[ftm68_99]

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

I am sorry, but what is PAS? Thanks.