Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Intoxicated]

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

 

[Tears in Rain]

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

Yikes!

 

[alwayssearching202]

I can't tell from 5lb if you've enough gas. I haven't come across gas described in lb.

I came across a thread that shows how to work out how much gas you have and how long it will last, but it doesn't mention lbs.:

Inert gas setup 101 thread:
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-setup-101.144320/

As usual you are appreciated and your responses so helpful! Looking at the size of the canister in comparison to those in other threads, I can only assume it is enough. But I am finding it quite common in the US for canisters to be advertised in lbs and Google has been of little help converting.

V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.314 m3​*Pa/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / (101.3 * 103​ Pa) = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * R * T / P = 80.94 mol * 8.206 * 10-5​ m3​*atm/(K*mol) * 273.15 K / 1 atm = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)
V = n * Vm​ = 80.94 mol * 0.02241 m3​/mol [STP] = 1.8 m3​ (1800 L)

 

[Intoxicated]

273.15 °K is 0 °C that is a relatively cold temperature. The estimated volume would be 2000 L at 28 °C, if 5 lb is the actual weight of nitrogen.

 

[Tears in Rain]

As usual you are appreciated and your responses so helpful! Looking at the size of the canister in comparison to those in other threads, I can only assume it is enough. But I am finding it quite common in the US for canisters to be advertised in lbs and Google has been of little help converting.

Did a quick Google search there. One website advertising 5lb nitrogen said "5 lb cylinder...holds 14.5 cu. ft. of Nitrogen",
whereas another website said "Nitrogen Cylinder 5 lbs. / 20 Cubic Feet".

So it varied, and there's a bit of a difference in the 2 sizes. Might be worth checking the website to see if it gives it in cubic feet.

For 14.5 or 20 cu/ft, going by that thread I linked above:
-14.5 cubic feet = 411 litres. if you use 15 LPM, that gives about 27.5 minutes of gas. (411/15 =27.4)
-20 cubic feet = 566 litres. That gives about 38 mins of gas. (566/15 = 37.7).

If you use 20 LPM or 25 LPM the gas will obviously be used up quicker.

 

[Intoxicated]

Did a quick Google search there. One website advertising 5lb nitrogen said "5 lb cylinder...holds 14.5 cu. ft. of Nitrogen"

Yeah, specifying the weight of the cylinder without nitrogen seems more logical.

 

[Tears in Rain]

For 14.5 or 20 cu/ft, going by that thread I linked above:
-14.5 cubic feet = 411 litres. if you use 15 LPM, that gives about 27.5 minutes of gas. (411/15 =27.4)
-20 cubic feet = 566 litres. That gives about 38 mins of gas. (566/15 = 37.7).

If you use 20 LPM or 25 LPM the gas will obviously be used up quicker.

The above post about amount of gas and 15lpm is obviously only for exit bag or a hood, not SCUBA or SCUBA.

 

[ftm68_99]

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

PV = nRT so for volume V = nRT/P

P = Pressure
V = Volume
N = Moles
R = Gas constant
T = Temperature

Moles: (5*453.59) / 28.02 = 80.94 moles

(80.94 * (0.08206 (atm / mol)) * 273.15) / 101.3 ∼ 18.14L (STP)

Correct me anyone if I'm wrong.

I am sorry, but what is PAS? Thanks.

 

[CPY]

Could someone clarify a thing for me

For the EEBD hood method you don't need the adapter thing to be able to hook the cilinder to the breathing apparatus, right?

The cilinders in my area all W 21,7

 

[FailerQt.]

So exactly what I was afraid of, the tubing doesn't fit (it's extremely loose) without some kind of connector. I even tried to make sure and asked several times here if it'll work/what size to get for my regulator, but it doesn't fit anyway. So if anybody could help, I'd really appreciate it. Even better would be a DM with source to the exact thing I need be it different tube or way to connect it. (EU)
Thanks in advance!

This is the regulator I have and a 6mm PVC tube

 

[Tears in Rain]

Could someone clarify a thing for me

For the EEBD hood method you don't need the adapter thing to be able to hook the cilinder to the breathing apparatus, right?

The cilinders in my area all W 21,7

Nope, from what I've seen on this thread, you don't need an adapter. You can cut the metal thing off the end of the hood hose, then attach the hose to a gas regulator, which attaches to the cylinder.

 

[Username1]

Could someone clarify a thing for me

For the EEBD hood method you don't need the adapter thing to be able to hook the cilinder to the breathing apparatus, right?

The cilinders in my area all W 21,7

Hose clamps can be used to connect the EEBD hood to the gas flow regulator. You may not have enough hose length, then you can extend it using an additional hose, hose connector and hose clamps

You can read the manual that vizzy made

It seems some EEBD hoods can be connected to the regulator in a more elegant way, there are adapters for them, but I'm not versed in that

I have discovered the name of the quick couplers used in SCBA and some EEBD Hoods, they are called "Breathing air couplings". They are not compatible with the typical compressed air couplings and they're usually available for in 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" thread sizes.

This couplers enable the connection of EEBD hoods with such plugs directly to inert gas regulators (in EU most of them have G1/4" outlets).​

Here's an example of how to use the adapter:

Here's my Rescue Hood setup:

- 9 Litre nitrogen cylinder(200 bar)
( BS341 no. 3, 5/8" BSP(British standard) outlet )

- Argon regulator with flow meter. (BSP/British standards - G 5/8" BSP inlet (to cylinder). G 3/8" BSP outlet (to coupling)
(~12.5lpm argon =15lpm nitrogen; will probably use 15lpm argon, = ~ 18lpm nitrogen).

- Rescue hood with 1 metre hose (CEN-type hose plug, compatible with CEJN 340 series and rectus 95 ks series couplings /couplers).

-Rectus 95ks female 3/8" BSP (British standard) coupling /coupler

- Adjustable wrench

View attachment 119901
View attachment 119902
View attachment 119903
View attachment 119904


View attachment 119907
View attachment 119906

Total cost(including postage) : approx €600(euros)
Cost breakdown in euros (approx) :
- 9L Nitrogen cylinder : €200
- Argon regulator with flow-meter: €110
- Rectus 95ks female coupling /coupler: €90
- Rescue Hood : €200
- (will also spend -~€15 on straps to strap to armchair)

 

[Readytogohome]

So exactly what I was afraid of, the tubing doesn't fit (it's extremely loose) without some kind of connector. I even tried to make sure and asked several times here if it'll work/what size to get for my regulator, but it doesn't fit anyway. So if anybody could help, I'd really appreciate it. Even better would be a DM with source to the exact thing I need be it different tube or way to connect it. (EU)
Thanks in advance!

This is the regulator I have and a 6mm PVC tube

I'm using oxygen tubing.

Nope, from what I've seen on this thread, you don't need an adapter. You can cut the metal thing off the end of the hood hose, then attach the hose to a gas regulator, which attaches to the cylinder.

Yes, that's right, I think Vizzy did the same thing and successfully ctb.

 

[Tears in Rain]

So exactly what I was afraid of, the tubing doesn't fit (it's extremely loose) without some kind of connector. I even tried to make sure and asked several times here if it'll work/what size to get for my regulator, but it doesn't fit anyway. So if anybody could help, I'd really appreciate it. Even better would be a DM with source to the exact thing I need be it different tube or way to connect it. (EU)
Thanks in advance!
View attachment 125378

You just need a thing called a hose clamp, and a screwdriver. You'll get them in hardware stores or online.


Just tighten it around the tube where it's attached to the regulator. Use a screwdriver.

Or get a hose clamp that you can tighten with your hands, that look like this(called butterfly hose clamps):

 

[Username1]

So exactly what I was afraid of, the tubing doesn't fit (it's extremely loose) without some kind of connector

It would probably be a good idea to buy either a suitable tube or a suitable adapter for an existing tube (I don't think my message is going to help you)

 

[FailerQt.]

You just need a thing called a hose clamp, and a screwdriver. You'll get them in hardware stores or online.

View attachment 125380
Just tighten it around the tube where it's attached to the regulator. Use a screwdriver.

Or get a hose clamp that you can tighten with your hands, that look like this(called butterfly hose clamps):
View attachment 125383

Thank you so much!
Sorry I am a bit too stupid with things like this

 

[Username1]

You just need a thing called a hose clamp, and a screwdriver. You'll get them in hardware stores or online.

View attachment 125380
Just tighten it around the tube where it's attached to the regulator. Use a screwdriver.

Or get a hose clamp that you can tighten with your hands, that look like this(called butterfly hose clamps):
View attachment 125383

I haven't seen hose clamps that small in diameter. As I understood the inner diameter of her tube is 6 millimeters, and this hose sits loosely, that is, it is necessary that the hose clamp shrinks to a diameter that is less than 6 millimeters (probably not 6 millimeters, you have to look at the outside diameter). I'm not sure they exist

 

[CPY]

Hose clamps can be used to connect the EEBD hood to the gas flow regulator. You may not have enough hose length, then you can extend it using an additional hose, hose connector and hose clamps

You can read the manual that vizzy made

It seems some EEBD hoods can be connected to the regulator in a more elegant way, there are adapters for them, but I'm not versed in that

What a relief those damn adapters seems very hard to source unfortunately

 

[Tears in Rain]

Thank you so much!
Sorry I am a bit too stupid with things like this

No problem. Most people would never have a need for hose clamps, or come across them, so it's normal not to be aware of them.

Use two clamps at the connection, if two will fit; If only one fits then that's fine.
And you'll need to get small hose clamps, sometimes called mini hose clamps. Your tubing is only 6mm, so you'll need either 6mm or 8mm hose clamps. Buy a couple of each size, and see what fits best. You can also buy a set of hose clamps, that come in a few different sizes.

Just make sure the tube is tight on the regulator.

I haven't seen hose clamps that small in diameter. As I understood the inner diameter of her tube is 6 millimeters, and this hose sits loosely, that is, it is necessary that the hose clamp shrinks to a diameter that is less than 6 millimeters (probably not 6 millimeters, you have to look at the outside diameter). I'm not sure they exist

Good spot, I hadn't thought of that. But on looking it up, you can get hose clamps, sometimes called mini hose clamps, as small as 6mm. Given that the external diameter of a 6mm tube could be 8-9 mm, a clamp of maybe 8mm diameter might be ok. @FailerQt. should try the different size clamps to see what fits best.

 

[FailerQt.]

Good spot, I hadn't thought of that. But on looking it up, you can get hose clamps, sometimes called mini hose clamps, as small as 6mm. Given that the external diameter of a 6mm tube could be 8-9 mm, a clamp of maybe 8mm diameter might be ok. @FailerQt. should try the different size clamps to see what fits best.


View attachment 125393

Will one or two like this work as well or do the have to be able to tighten with a screwdriver? Was also thinking about glueing it too just to be sure or is that a stupid idea?

Edit: nevermind, found multiple ones 6-10mm, 8-10mm, ordered multiple just in case, but still wondering about the glue.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

Will one or two like this work as well or do the have to be able to tighten with a screwdriver? Was also thinking about glueing it too just to be sure or is that a stupid idea?
View attachment 125412

I think you the ones which are to be tightened with a screwdriver. Small ones exist, you just have to look around a bit, I have the same problem and just ordered some small ones a few days ago.

I also think glue would be a bad idea.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

Anyone has an idea as to what an optimal bag size is? I have ordered different sizes of oven bags (43cm x 55cm and 55cm x 60cm). The PPeh recommends a size of 35cm x 50 cm. Which size should I choose? I have quite long hair so I need some space for my hair bun. But I am not sure if the CO2 is purged as fast from a larger bag as it would be from a smaller one.

The next thing I was wondering about was the tube. @GasMonkey and others suggested simple oxygen tubing, I have ordered that and some 6mm PVC tubing which also was recommended. The diameter of the oxygen hose is quite small, would it be sufficient for a flow rate of 15l or 20l per minute? I will do some test when my stuff arrives, I was just wondering if anyone has any experiences. I am not sure about the lpm, PPeH suggest 15, but I am not fully convinced if it is sufficient, @FromGermany raised some doubt. I think I might go with 20lpm just to be save.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Anyone has an idea as to what an optimal bag size is? I have ordered different sizes of oven bags (43cm x 55cm and 55cm x 60cm). The PPeh recommends a size of 35cm x 50 cm. Which size should I choose? I have quite long hair so I need some space for my hair bun. But I am not sure if the CO2 is purged as fast from a larger bag as it would be from a smaller one.

I came across a post before from @GasMonkey, where he linked exit bag instructions. Think it's from 2015 PPeH. Measurements put forward seem to be different to current PPeH advice. I guess go with whatever size works best for your head size.
Copy of his post is below.

Read the inert gas chapter on the PPeH and PPH Essentials.
There is a PDF with instructions to craft an ExitBag. There is also a couple of videos: Doing it with Chi and Doing it with Betty.

I am not sure about the lpm, PPeH suggest 15, but I am not fully convinced if it is sufficient, @FromGermany raised some doubt. I think I might go with 20lpm just to be save.

Probably go with 20lpm or higher if you have plenty of inert gas.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

I came across a post before from @GasMonkey, where he linked exit bag instructions. Think it's from 2015 PPeH. Measurements put forward seem to be different to current PPeH advice. I guess go with whatever size works best for your head size.
Copy of his post is below.

View attachment 125427

Thanks, guess I will have to do some tests then with my small test cylinder.

Probably go with 20lpm or higher if you have plenty of inert gas.

So you also think that a flow rate above 15lpm is better? I could even do 25lpm, with my 1000l I'd have gas for 40 minutes which should be sufficient (considering the Dignitas case where masks were used). Well I guess there is no other way to find out than to try.

 

[Tears in Rain]

So you also think that a flow rate above 15lpm is better? I could even do 25lpm, with my 1000l I'd have gas for 40 minutes which should be sufficient (considering the Dignitas case where masks were used). Well I guess there is no other way to find out than to try.

Yeah, I looked up some old posts from that @FromGermany poster you mentioned, they seemed to advise 20LPM+.
Others, like @Vizzy in this thread said maybe use 25 LPM for a hood, but that 15 lpm was probably ok for the exit bag.

Another poster did a blackout test with an exit bag and 20lpm:

So I've attempted the blackout test.

• 2.8 Nitrogen
• Bag Diameter. 60 x 40 cm / 20 liters / 45 micron
• 3mm elastic cord

Inflation takes some time, if you feel the gas flow tingling your ears you need to tighten the bag more on your
forehead. Bag inflated like in ppeh pictures, however you need to keep the constant flow running.
If you turn the gas flow down gas will deplete very fast from the bag.
The bag was done the same as the doing it with chi video.
I did not hyperventilate.

This shit was wild, pulled the bag down, took a few breaths. Pulse oxymeter started pinging like crazy.
After that i just remember wild noises, hard to describe but a bit like experimental electronic music.
I think i only regained consciousness because I headbutted the cabinet in front of me.
Cylinder knocked over, pulse oxymeter lying on the floor, head bloody.

I have no recollection how long it took.

So you also think that a flow rate above 15lpm is better? I could even do 25lpm, with my 1000l I'd have gas for 40 minutes which should be sufficient .

If you've got enough gas, you might as well go with 25lpm.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

Yeah, I looked up some old posts from that @FromGermany poster you mentioned, they seemed to advise 20LPM+.
Others, like @vizzy in this post said maybe use 25 LPM for a hood, but that 15 lpm was probably ok for the exit bag.

Another poster did a blackout test with an exit bag and 20lpm:

Yeah, exactly. I know that he had a major spat with @Greenberg and that he was banned (not entirely sure why, but it seems like he was to critical), but I read a lot of his posts (in other threads too) and his reasoning seemed valid - for instance I too think that the simple scuba setup by @befree and Scrooge is crazy (although one guy successfully ctb'd). Concerning the lpm, he even quoted a study by Ogden where it is supposedly established that one should use a higher flowrate. I'll see if I can find it again.

A blackout test with an exit bag is totally crazy tough.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Yeah, exactly. I know that he had a major spat with @Greenberg and that he was banned (not entirely sure why, but it seems like he was to critical), but I read a lot of his posts (in other threads too) and his reasoning seemed valid - for instance I too think that the simple scuba setup by @befree and Scrooge is crazy (although one guy successfully ctb'd). Concerning the lpm, he even quoted a study by Ogden where it is supposedly established that one should use a higher flowrate. I'll see if I can find it again.

A blackout test with an exit bag is totally crazy tough.

Yeah, in the thread I was looking at, @FromGermany and @Greenberg seemed to be constantly arguing. Before, when looking back over the previous few pages on this thread, @Greenberg was mentioned a few times, so maybe people sided with his views more. I honestly don't know.

Why do you say that the simple SCUBA setup by @befree is crazy?

Yea, I presume the blackout test with the exit bag is done with the tube not taped to the inside of the exit bag, and just left loose. There's always the chance it could stay inside the bag when the body falls though. Blackout tests should only really be done with SCBA/SCUBA gear.

 

[Antoine_Roquentin]

Yeah, in the thread I was looking at, @FromGermany and @Greenberg seemed to be constantly arguing. Before, when looking back over the previous few pages on this thread, @Greenberg was mentioned a few times, so maybe people sided with his views more. I honestly don't know.

Study of Hamilton WK, Eastwood DW, "To completely replace expired air, and thus insure the highest possible concentration of helium, the flow rate of added gas (helium), has been determined to be a volume of at least two and one half times the subject's minute volume. This would be true with either the bag and mask as used by Dignitas, or with the use of a large hood."

This also applies to Nitrogen.
10 Liters x 2.5 = 25 Liters / Minute

Derek Humphry, Final Exit 2020, "For the nitrogen method set the nitrogen regulator outlet gauge at 20 liters per minute (LPM)."

Also, only a 2 stage regulator will ensure a stable flow for the tank. An ordinary 1 stage premium regulator with a flowmeter will also do the job as long as there is at least a 10 Liter Nitrogen bottle (10 x 200 = 2.000 Liter) and a purity of at least 2.8 of the gas.

I found @FromGermany's quote in another thread. He got the authors of the study in his first quote wrong, it actually comes from this paper. The german wikipedia says this about minute ventilation: "An adult human takes about 12 to 15 times per minute. He inhales a tidal volume of 500 to 700 ml per breath. This means that his minute respiratory volume is on average eight liters (13 × 600 ml = 7800 ml) per minute."
So even if we go with 8, which is lower than @FromGermany's number, one possibly should at least choose 20lpm (8 x 2.5).

I don't agree that you need a 10l cylinder though. 5l should be sufficient, even in the worst case - the one from the Dignitas study where it took one person 40 minutes to ctb. And like it was said multiple times, this was the case because they used face masks that weren't tight. I think here he is just overly cautious.

Why do you say that the simple SCUBA setup by @befree is crazy?

In the case of the cheaper version one has to use a mask where nasal breathing is not possible, because the nose is obstructed. I must admit, I have no idea how unconscious breathing works, but the nose should be free I guess? Also there is the issue of the mouth piece: Scrooge recommended to remove it, @befree to keep it in. I'm not sure how high the breathing resistance is with these kind of masks. What happens if one is unconscious and breathing through the mouthpiece gets tougher because one does not have it in the mouth?

 

[Justnotme]

Guys, please tell me what should I do if in my country the nitrogen reducer does not have a rotameter where liters/minutes should be indicated?

Do I have to buy a reducer that is designed for a different gas? Because the argon reducer, for example, has measurements of liters/minutes

First photo: nitrogen reducer
Second photo: argon reducer

 

[Tears in Rain]

Guys, please tell me what should I do if in my country the nitrogen reducer does not have a rotameter where liters/minutes should be indicated?

Do I have to buy a reducer that is designed for a different gas? Because the argon reducer, for example, has measurements of liters/minutes

First photo: nitrogen reducer
Second photo: argon reducer

If you can't get a nitrogen regulator/reducer with LPM on it, then the Argon one with LPM flowmeter is fine to use, I've seen other posters on previous pages use it. There's a slight difference in between nitrogen and argon, but from what I saw on this thread, setting it to 15lpm on the argon flowmeter gives just under 20lpm of nitrogen. So it's fine to buy the argon reducer/regulator, and set it to 15lpm.

Here's previous posts from @DyingToDie123, who used a regulator that measured both argon and carbon dioxide(CO2):

This is my regulator. Thank you!
View attachment 122793

There is both CO2 and argon units, the argon is on the side.

Thank you so so much! I will try this!