Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[GasMonkey]

1. Should 5L 200 bar cylinder be enough for both test runs and the final run?

Normaly yep, depends on how many tests you wanna do tho.

The 5L cylinder comes with a carrying handle, I guess one could just carry it by the handle?

Yep.

Will it be a problem if someone sees me with it?

Nope. It's not their business. :)

I guess a good cover story for buying nitrogen is infusing beer with it and for helium balloons

Welding.

How do I secure it

Strap it to a table.

4. How do I make sure I don't fall from the armchair once I pass out and ruin my setup?

With straps, but anyway only minor movements have been observed in studies of people CTBing with gas.

6. Is storing the cylinder in my closet a bad idea?

A 5L cylinder is small enough to be in a closet yeah.

I was also considering ordering some argon from Poland on eBay,

Argon is the worst inert gas option to CTB.

the specific seller that I found ships the cylinders in boxes

I think all cylinders are shipped in boxes, unless it's huge ones. Mine is 10L and it came on a box.

So the questions:

Since you are a novice, start by reading the inert gas chapter in the PPeH and PPH Essentials.

Greenberg says it can take 3 to 6 minutes before passing out using the EEBD hood

If you pre-fill it should be as fast as an ExitBag, which is about 3 breaths.

 

[Babumax]

My N2 is at 150 bar? Instead of 200… doesn't that mean there is less gas in my 40cf?

 

[itsallpointless]

My N2 is at 150 bar? Instead of 200… doesn't that mean there is less gas in my 40cf?

If I'm not wrong it should have about 1000 litres of n2 inside which would take you over an hour to deplete at a rate of 15l/h

 

[Babumax]

If I'm not wrong it should have about 1000 litres of n2 inside which would take you over an hour to deplete at a rate of 15l/h

Yea I was just curious as to the 150 bar vs 200 bar and what that means in terms of gas quantity

 

[goblinknob]

Yep.


Nope. It's not their business. :)


Welding.


Strap it to a table.


With straps, but anyway only minor movements have been observed in studies of people CTBing with gas.


A 5L cylinder is small enough to be in a closet yeah.


Argon is the worst inert gas option to CTB.


I think all cylinders are shipped in boxes, unless it's huge ones. Mine is 10L and it came on a box.


Since you are a novice, start by reading the inert gas chapter in the PPeH and PPH Essentials.


If you pre-fill it should be as fast as an ExitBag, which is about 3 breaths.

Thank you for the answers. What do you think could be suitable for strapping both cylinders and myself?

I made a separate thread about the scuba method by Scrooge, but it got no replies. So I hope it's okay if I ask some more questions here:

1. We are supposed to use the diving regulator, where the first stage has the threads for DIN threads for 200 bar. From what I know the regulator can also be for 300 bar tanks (I am asking because I found a cheaper regulator for 300 bar and the description says it can be used for 200 bar as well). But I'm wondering if the pressured air G 5/8" thread adapter would work in this case, since they are made for 200 bar tanks?

2. I guess snorkel masks aren't suitable for this purpose? Scuba masks are kinda expensive, I found one that looks like like Scrooge's for around 100 euros in Germany, am I allowed to link it here?

3.Scrooge wrote this about checking the regulator function: "Next we'll check the regulator function. For that, open the tank and press the purge button in the middle of the demand valve. (Looks different for some models but it's present on ALL regulators.) When holding the button down, gas flows through the intake, when releasing it the gas flow stops"

I'm confused, how am I supposed to continuously hold the button down once I lose consciousness? Am I missing something? This seems to be a crucial part, I'm sure there has to be an explanation.

Plus gas is supposed to automatically flow when you are breathing, so what does pressing the button down accomplish then? Checking if everything works correctly? Will it flow automatically once breathing so no need to press the button down once the mask is on? Is that correct?

P.S. Welding is not a good cover story for me since I'm female plus I don't know what to say if my partner finds the cylinder.

 

[GasMonkey]

Yea I was just curious as to the 150 bar vs 200 bar and what that means in terms of gas quantity

The 200bar one should be smaller since the gas is more compressed, it would also have more total gas for the same compressed water volume.

In your case the 40cf is the total volume.
Wunderkind also had a 150bar cylinder.

 

[Babumax]

Your the best gas money. Thank you again

 

[GasMonkey]

What do you think could be suitable for strapping both cylinders and myself?

The cylinder should be well fastened, like to a heavy table or chair. You can strap yourself if you want but it isn't mandatory, neither SlovakGuy or Wunderkind strapped themselves.​

I made a separate thread about the scuba method

SCUBA is a worse version of SCBA, there is no reason to use underwater gear when you can use land gear. If you want to CTB with a mask go for SCBA.

SCUBA is viable but has a series of inconveniences that I have talked about several times in other posts: most SCUBA demand valves run on Negative Pressure (so they have inhalation resistance), they don't create a Positive Pressure over ambient inside the mask (which is what creates a perfect seal in SCBA) so the seal is totally dependant on the mask->skin contact surface being airtight, and the very good mask+demand valve combos are very expensive.​

I'm wondering if the pressured air G 5/8" thread adapter would work in this case, since they are made for 200 bar tanks?

Yes the air-to-nitrogen adapter works, it is the key component for SCBA/SCUBA setups.​

I guess snorkel masks aren't suitable for this purpose?

Not for an on-demand setup.
Theorically they can be used on a constant flow setup, but with no demand valve and no reservoir bag, a very high flow rate would be needed to meet the demands of inhalation in the mask. The constant flow air purifiers with masks operate at a huge flow rate (over 60 LPM).​

I'm confused, how am I supposed to continuously hold the button down once I lose consciousness? Am I missing something? This seems to be a crucial part, I'm sure there has to be an explanation.

That's just a button for creating a constant flow, useful to pre-fill the mask with N₂. The rest of the time it pumps on demand.​

 

[MelodyCymbal]

I seem to remember a "two finger" rule. It came either from the PPH, or Dr Philip Nitschke at Exit International.
You should be able to easily slip two fingers between your neck and the drawstring.
If you have trouble, then too tight.
If easy to slip three fingers, then too loose.

Two fingers flat against the neck or perpendicular to the neck? Also, is regular size oxygen tubing okay or does it need a larger diameter?

 

[color_me_gone]

Two fingers flat against the neck or perpendicular to the neck? Also, is regular size oxygen tubing okay or does it need a larger diameter?

So the idea is the width of two fingers perpendicular to the neck.
I believe regular size oxygen tube is ok, but not 100% sure on that.

 

[jolongone]

Can anyone tell me what do they mean by food grade nitrogen. Thanks

 

[color_me_gone]

Can anyone tell me what do they mean by food grade nitrogen. Thanks

From Google:

Food grade nitrogen is nitrogen with a purity and quality that meet US, European and other global standards for use with food and beverages. For example, the European Union defines food grade nitrogen as having a purity of 99% (less than 1% oxygen remaining).

Often used for brewing beer.

The low presence of oxygen is important to ctb.

 

[GasMonkey]

 

[goblinknob]

The cylinder should be well fastened, like to a heavy table or chair. You can strap yourself if you want but it isn't mandatory, neither SlovakGuy or Wunderkind strapped themselves.


SCUBA is a worse version of SCBA, there is no reason to use underwater gear when you can use land gear. If you want to CTB with a mask go for SCBA.

SCUBA is viable but has a series of inconveniences that I have talked about several times in other posts: most SCUBA demand valves run on Negative Pressure (so they have inhalation resistance), they don't create a Positive Pressure over ambient inside the mask (which is what creates a perfect seal in SCBA) so the seal is totally dependant on the mask->skin contact surface being airtight, and the very good mask+demand valve combos are very expensive.


Yes the air-to-nitrogen adapter works, it is the key component for SCBA/SCUBA setups.


Not for an on-demand setup.
Theorically they can be used on a constant flow setup, but with no demand valve and no reservoir bag, a very high flow rate would be needed to meet the demands of inhalation in the mask. The constant flow air purifiers with masks operate at a huge flow rate (over 60 LPM).


That's just a button for creating a constant flow, useful to pre-fill the mask with N₂. The rest of the time it pumps on demand.​

Thanks for all the information.

What could be suitable for fastening the cylinder to the table or chair? I noticed that in suicide reports nobody did this either. Cylinder exploding and damaging my surroundings is my biggest fear, especially when I'm unconscious and can't control it that well.

Could you please tell how can I connect a SCBA mask to the cylinder? What is the alternative to diving regulator in this case? What kind of adapter is needed? Is 5L 200 bar nitrogen cylinder enough for SCBA as well?

 

[jolongone]

From Google:

Food grade nitrogen is nitrogen with a purity and quality that meet US, European and other global standards for use with food and beverages. For example, the European Union defines food grade nitrogen as having a purity of 99% (less than 1% oxygen remaining).

Often used for brewing beer.

The low presence of oxygen is important to ctb.

From Google:

Food grade nitrogen is nitrogen with a purity and quality that meet US, European and other global standards for use with food and beverages. For example, the European Union defines food grade nitrogen as having a purity of 99% (less than 1% oxygen remaining).

Often used for brewing beer.

The low presence of oxygen is important to ctb.

Oh ok, l thought it was supposed to be 100% nitrogen. Sorry if l sound daft but this is all new to me

 

[Somber]

Argon is the worst inert gas option to CTB.

The argument linked suggests Argon would be a bad gas to push CO2 out of the bag on the basis of it being a heavier gas.

However CO2 is produced by the lungs by inhaling O2 from the air. Considering the bag doesn't contain any O2 you won't be able to produce CO2. If you follow the instructions in the PPH (flattening the bag prior to filling it with Argon and hyperventilating and exhaling prior to pulling it down) it should work with any of the recommended gasses, including Argon.

 

[GasMonkey]

The optimal flow rate was determined assuming a constant presence of CO₂, using a gas with a similar weight to Nitrogen (Air), so it should work without assuming a disappearance of CO₂.

Several members have reported "fails" (aborted attempts due to feeling suffocation/panic) using Argon, like the @jodes2 guy who was posting that Argon failed him in almost all new ExitBag/Argon threads, claiming that he did everything correctly. Whether we believe them or not is up to us. I tend to think that they did something wrong in the process, but the truth is that we only have strong evidence of 15 LPM working well for Nitrogen and Helium. The supposed issues of Argon should be solved by increasing the flow rate.

None of this affects me, since I'm not gonna use the bag but top-notch SCBA gear.​

 

[my-end]

The optimal flow rate was determined assuming a constant presence of CO₂, using a gas with a similar weight to Nitrogen (Air), so it should work without assuming a disappearance of CO₂.

Several members have reported "fails" (aborted attempts due to feeling suffocation/panic) using Argon, like the @jodes2 guy who was posting that Argon failed him in almost all new ExitBag/Argon threads, claiming that he did everything correctly. Whether we believe them or not is up to us. I tend to think that they did something wrong in the process, but the truth is that we only have strong evidence of 15 LPM working well for Nitrogen and Helium. The supposed issues of Argon should be solved by increasing the flow rate.

None of this affects me, since I'm not gonna use the bag but top-notch SCBA gear.​

I'm using an exit bag. Is it your understanding that upon inhaling gas post hyperventilation, loss of consciousness should be immediate? Rn I can induce loss of consciousness via hv, holding breath, and leaning head back...but I'm trying to figure what to anticipate. Should I be prepared after the first breath of gas to still need to breathe? I practiced before but was before I knew I needed to hv.

 

[GasMonkey]

loss of consciousness should be immediate?

On this study the subjects blacked out in ~10 sec/3 breaths, congruent with @Diver_K_A's experience, @Wunderkind also blacked out during his tests without even noticing (testing his SCBA on his car). Dr Philip Nitschke also says that doing the process correctly (hyperventilation + full exhalation + deep breath of the inert gas) you should loss consciousness in a couple of breaths.

 

[color_me_gone]

Considering the bag doesn't contain any O2 you won't be able to produce CO2.

Not True!

You body continues to exhale CO2 for a considerable amount of time, even while inhaling no O2.

Why?

Because your blood holds a considerable amount of O2 in a reserve capacity.

Your blood O2 level does fall to zero the moment you stop inhaling O2.

The body continues to live by metabolizing the reserve O2 in you blood.

The metabolization process converts the reserve O2 into CO2.

That reserve CO2 must be flushed from the bag.

If it is re-inhaled long enough, it will trigger your SI.

Your SI will cause your body to react violently, doing everything possible to restore oxygen.

The reserve O2 in the blood is why it takes 10 to 45 minutes for the body to catch the bus.

 

[GasMonkey]

45 minutes? do you mean for every cell in the body to die? coz brain death happens within 5-10 minutes.

 

[color_me_gone]

45 minutes? do you mean for every cell in the body to die? coz brain death happens within 5-10 minutes.

In the various resources I've read, I have seen that range mention. They never mentioned their exact definition of death.
I do know that 45 minutes is used in the calculation of how much gas is needed in your tank (flow rate x time = amount of gas).
The 45 minutes is defined as the worst case scenario, with a built in safety factor.
Every person's body is different.
Some bodies have a lot more blood, so a greater O2 reserve to deplete, would take longer to ctb.
Some bodies have a high rate of metabolism, which would deplete the reserve more quickly, so less time to ctb.

Since a person can be brain dead and still kept alive on life support equipment,
it is important that the process completes to total ctb, nothing can to save you, whatever the definition of that is.

 

[GasMonkey]

The end of the hose that connects to the mask has an ON and OFF button. How do I operate these/which buttons should I press when?

The ON button engages the demand valve. Once it is engaged if you press it, it will create a constant flow of gas, which is perfect to pre-fill the mask with N₂ before you start breathing, 1 or 1.5 seconds should be enough to pre-fill the small volume inside the mask.​

The OFF button stops the demand valve.

What do I need to use the pressure gauge on the regulator for?

To check how much gas do you have.

Everything I've read seems to only put importance 15 LPM

That flow rate is irrelevant for SCBA, it doesn't work on constant flow.

Should I use a different regulator/flow meter?

Yep, you got the wrong regulator, it only has a flow port. You need the Pressure Flow Regulator (it's called like that because it has a pressure port and a flow port). Once you have that you will need to connect the SCBA demand valve to the pressure port with a wrench or 17mm spanner.​

Once the setup is built and prepared, the process is:
1. Put the mask on.
2. Take a deep breath of air.
3. Insert the demand valve into the mask.
4. Pre-fill mask.
5. Exhale fully.
6. Take a deep breath of N₂.
7. Avoid the reincarnation trap.

 

[tantheta]

Yep, you got the wrong regulator, it only has a flow port. You need the Pressure Flow Regulator (it's called like that because it has a pressure port and a flow port). Once you have that you will need to connect the SCBA demand valve to the pressure port with a wrench or 17mm spanner.​

Damn. Can I buy something that can get the job done from a store rather than EM? I'm really trying to do this this weekend and can't wait for the shipping.

Also do you have discord?

 

[GasMonkey]

Damn. Can I buy something that can get the job done from a store rather than EM? I'm really trying to do this this weekend and can't wait for the shipping.

Theorically you could connect the demand valve with an adapter to any pressure regulator (setting it up to supply the proper pressure) like Joarga did with an "industrial regulator". But that would have shipping time too since you would need to search for the regulator and adapter and order them. You made a big mistake by buying the wrong regulator on EM. ​

Also do you have discord?

Even tho I answer a bunch of PMs here (there are people who register in the forum just to PM me), I think the conversations should be done here in public, so everybody has access to the information.​

 

[Babumax]

The ON button engages the demand valve. Once it is engaged if you press it, it will create a constant flow of gas, which is perfect to pre-fill the mask with N₂ before you start breathing, 1 or 1.5 seconds should be enough to pre-fill the small volume inside the mask.​

The OFF button stops the demand valve.


To check how much gas do you have.


That flow rate is irrelevant for SCBA, it doesn't work on constant flow.

Yep, you got the wrong regulator, it only has a flow port. You need the Pressure Flow Regulator (it's called like that because it has a pressure port and a flow port). Once you have that you will need to connect the SCBA demand valve to the pressure port with a wrench or 17mm spanner.​

Once the setup is built and prepared, the process is:
1. Put the mask on.
2. Take a deep breath of air.
3. Insert the demand valve into the mask.
4. Pre-fill mask.
5. Exhale fully.
6. Take a deep breath of N₂.
7. Avoid the reincarnation trap.

Once u press the demand valve. You leave it on ?

 

[GasMonkey]

yep

 

[tantheta]

Theorically you could connect the demand valve with an adapter to any pressure regulator (setting it up to supply the proper pressure) like Joarga did with an "industrial regulator". But that would have shipping time too since you would need to search for the regulator and adapter and order them. You made a big mistake by buying the wrong regulator on EM. ​

Dude there HAS to be another regulator/flow meter that can be used! I have the tank, the mask with the hose. What do you suggest I do to get this done this weekend?

 

[GasMonkey]

You could connect the demand valve to a pressure regulator (setting it up to supply the proper pressure, which for the EM demand valve is 7 bar). The regulators with low pressure outputs (0-10bar) are better for this and cheaper. The most difficult part would be to find a regulator with the same thread size/type as the connector on the hose (or an adapter between the two to make the connection).​

 

[Sparx]

I bought a full EM SCBA kit (UK spec) that I'm not needing now (going by SN). But I don't know what to do with it. Can't get a refund from EM as I tested it and SaSu rules forbid me from offering it for sale/as a gift. Any ideas? Tried selling the mask on eBay but no takers yet.