Interesting article on the threat posed by incels.

[GrumpyFrog]

I think we have a huge semantic issue in the whole "incel ok vs. incel evil" debate. People defending incels refer to the original meaning of the term ("involutarily celibate") and believe that all the blame applies to everyone who can't get laid, while people criticizing (to put it mildly) incels refer to incels as a subculture inhabiting specific online resources and promoting specific hateful views, and the argument goes round and round in circles because sides do not refer to the same thing.

 

[kiuya]

You are right, very conservative (eastern european) culture here. Still, what applies everywhere is that men are breadwinners. We are not allowed to cry, to complain, to abandon life. Most reasons pointing to the men that already did so also shows the decline of civilisation, at least the most important reasons.
Also, we are completely expected to be in the driving seat of a relationship, as much as that has been negated by more and more equality of the sexes. It's for a reason that I think the erosion of traditional relations in marriage contribute to higher than ever divorce rates.
Let's not forget we also are expected to be mentally stronger, but we suffer for longer and receive less understanding for it, this will be the new epidemic soon enough.

It's just an assertion of historical consideration. Women have somehow always been protected, just as much as their issues were ignored. Too bad they are still shamed in some places. I acknowledge especially the more you move east, being a woman is easily a nightmare which doesn't seem it will stop anytime soon, because it's steeped by tradition or harsh political debate.

And by the way, the way we describe types of puss, ass and tits is just playful adoration for no other reason, but to show we like it. None of those determine how good a mother a woman will be, or if she cheats or anything like that, so comparing small size shaming with men is out of the question.
Also, getting enlargement is a very very different outcome.

Thank you for putting such a thoughtful response. I mostly agree about the things that are a result of male socialization, but have a few quirks.

It's for a reason that I think the erosion of traditional relations in marriage contribute to higher than ever divorce rates.

Higher divorce rates can actually be blamed by the destigmatization of divorce and because people are dating more freely, nowadays you don't have to settle which has kind of created a problem where men and women are chasing their prince or princess, the more you have dated around the more likely you are to divorce. This demographic of divorce rates actually shows that very progressive countries like Germany and Ireland have a pretty low divorce rate, and US has divorce rate of 39% nowadays.

And by the way, the way we describe types of puss, ass and tits is just playful adoration for no other reason, but to show we like it.

This isn't my experience mostly, esp. teenage boys can be ruthless about the size of your tits or vagina types, I do acknowledge that most of "older" men don't do that but teenage boys are the most vocal group in real life and in online as well.

I would also like to add that even though shitty stereotypes are imposed onto men, they're imposed to women as well. Especially in today's climate I feel that I have to be an assertive girlboss AND a submissive wifey. I could go on and on about what women are socialized to be but it's such an over-discussed matter that I don't think I need to explain more.

Unrealistic standards in looks, personality and behavior have always been imposed both men and women. I think this should be pretty crucial to internalize. The discussion shouldn't be us vs them. Stereotypes need be abolished from both genders.

 

[YourNeighbor]

I think we have a huge semantic issue in the whole "incel ok vs. incel evil" debate. People defending incels refer to the original meaning of the term ("involutarily celibate") and believe that all the blame applies to everyone who can't get laid, while people criticizing (to put it mildly) incels refer to incels as a subculture inhabiting specific online resources and promoting specific hateful views, and the argument goes round and round in circles because sides do not refer to the same thing.

This, obviously, takes the incel bait. There is no huge semantic debate. The debate is "do we take a hate group's definition of itself at face value, or do we look at objective criteria to arrive at a definition?" Adherents and apologists for hateful views take the former approach. Others don't.

There are people who are literally "involuntarily celibate," think people with medical issues or physical injuries that make sex impossible, who do not identify as and would never use "incel" to define themselves because the term "incel" means much more than the literal application of the term. Don't take my word for it--look it up. If you lost people close to you to this group or knew people targeted/harassed by them, I doubt you would be covering for them or gaslighting here.

There is no semantic issue. Kind of like it is not a semantic issue to say the "Proud Boys" are not just a bunch of boys who are proud.

 

[the_town_manager]

Incel also seems to have been used a fairly generic insult for some time, and it seems that some guys with low self-esteem and low social standing who have trouble finding sex/relationships have co-opted the term without necessarily sharing the hateful misogyny that's been associated with the term. I don't think that's a great move, but there does seem to be some of that happening. If you click on the actual incel forums though, it's still clearly full of the vilest misogyny. So, yeah. I think the term is unsalvageable, and it's a bad idea for anyone to associate with it, but I don't think that necessarily means that everyone that does self-identify as one is a misogynist or shares some wider ideology.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

There are people who are literally "involuntarily celibate," think people with medical issues or physical injuries that make sex impossible, who do not identify as and would never use "incel" to define themselves because the term "incel" means much more than the literal application of the term. Don't take my word for it--look it up. If you lost people close to you to this group or knew people targeted/harassed by them, I doubt you would be covering for them or gaslighting here.

I could tell you my personal story regarding incels but I wouldn't because I don't expect you to give a shit. I, in turn, have no intention to "gaslight" you or anyone else because I don't really give a shit whether other people love or hate incels. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and this is not the hill I'd be willing to die on. I voiced an observation from my point of view. I might be wrong.

I am personally convinced that a) some people use hate symbolic without fully understanding its meaning and b) even in hate groups there are people that need to be punished and people that are simply misguided and can be persuaded to change their mind with meaningful dialogue. I can explain why this is what I believe. But that is just my opinion, other people might disagree. If being willing to hear out (to a certain extent) people even if these people do and say amoral and hateful things makes me responsible for hate crimes in some peoples mind, that's fine by me but I do not subscribe to this point of view. There's people put there that already consider me responsible for a genocide, it doesn't get any worse than that anyway.

 

[come to dust]

Incels (those ones who murder and/or rape people) are bad. Human trafficking is bad, but is much more difficult to uncover because of the corruption and threats by powers that be (remember Epstein's island, for example). I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Yeah, and there've been plenty of "lonely, ugly and misunderstood" killers.

They are powerful, they have money. They're not incels.

Source?

They're not, but they have a potential to become them. Do we want that?

Are you sure? Doesn't loneliness lead to aggression and hate towards the "more lucky" ones? I'm saying that because i'm a little bit incelish* and i sometimes catched myself thinking something like "oh i wish these happy couples on valentine's day would suffer as much as i do" and yadda yadda ya (still, i would NEVER assault, rape or kill anyone and i have no desire to).

*i can elaborate of course, if you wish

Pedophiles can say, for example, that fucking a 12 year old child was the only solution, would you believe them?
oh my god poor pedo, he/she/them couldn't do anything except hurting others and destroying their lives oh my god

Then they should kill themselves. It's for the best. I'm incelish myself, and one of the reasons for my upcoming CTB is the inability to find love. It's a valid reason.

sorry to disappoint you, dude, but right now it's Al-Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, whistleblowers, incels and i've probably forgotten something.

The source for the fraternity statistic is from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/rape-sexual-assault-ban-frats

 

[waitingforrest]

You are right, very conservative (eastern european) culture here. Still, what applies everywhere is that men are breadwinners. We are not allowed to cry, to complain, to abandon life. Most reasons pointing to the men that already did so also shows the decline of civilisation, at least the most important reasons.
Also, we are completely expected to be in the driving seat of a relationship, as much as that has been negated by more and more equality of the sexes. It's for a reason that I think the erosion of traditional relations in marriage contribute to higher than ever divorce rates.
Let's not forget we also are expected to be mentally stronger, but we suffer for longer and receive less understanding for it, this will be the new epidemic soon enough.

It's just an assertion of historical consideration. Women have somehow always been protected, just as much as their issues were ignored. Too bad they are still shamed in some places. I acknowledge especially the more you move east, being a woman is easily a nightmare which doesn't seem it will stop anytime soon, because it's steeped by tradition or harsh political debate.

And by the way, the way we describe types of puss, ass and tits is just playful adoration for no other reason, but to show we like it. None of those determine how good a mother a woman will be, or if she cheats or anything like that, so comparing small size shaming with men is out of the question.
Also, getting enlargement is a very very different outcome.

Honestly the expectations put on the stereotypes of how a man or women should act is just so harmful.

Men are expected to "be a man" and be strong, be almost emotionless. Women are expected to be more emotional and cry more so they must be overreacting.

Women get the custody of children more, perhaps due to the assumption that women are more motherly. Men are expected to be the sole breadwinner of the family.

In terms of appearances, I don't want to argue who has it worse, the grass is greener on the other side. In general, the trend is, once you grow old, you are no longer attractive it seems. But holy f**k, the shaming on things none of us can change us so horrible. To the extent that people undergo dangerous operations just to look more attractive. That photoshop and filters are normal now.

The fact that eating disorders is rising says a lot. I truly think that the prevalent expectations makes underdiagnosis so common.

Men's issues are still not being talked about, women's issues are being talked about more but, still dismissed, especially in court hearings about domestic violence and s*xual abuse. And even the shame for men to be the victim in domestic violence or s*xual abuse leads to men not wanting to report it.

Oh and if you don't fit into those gender binaries, you are extra fucked.

Baseline is, dismissal fucks everyone over. And if you aren't attractive, people will treat you differently. Both sides have their own unique issues, but the perception that this is a "women's issue only" or a "men's issue only" fucks anyone who's issues don't align with said stereotypes.

I don't know, I might just be spewing bs. So uh, if you managed to read this far, just take away that I dislike humans equally.

 

[Insomniac]

they only use guns. just hide the guns.

 

[Grav]

Incels (those ones who murder and/or rape people) are bad. Human trafficking is bad, but is much more difficult to uncover because of the corruption and threats by powers that be (remember Epstein's island, for example). I don't understand what you're trying to say.

What I'm saying is that the threat from incels is far less than other crimes yet the govt has the resources to chase small things and totally ignore bigger problems.