Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[oono]

That should be roughly 1100 liter. The PPH states you need 400 Liter for constant 15 Liter/Minute flow. I suppose scuba would needs even less than that. Just make sure to make your own calculations as I am not a chemist.

Ok thanks, anyway with the regulator the pressure will be reduced automatically. So 8l 150bars will be more than enough for the scuba method, I hope.

 

[parasite_eve]

Ok thanks, anyway with the regulator the pressure will be reduced automatically. So 8l 150bars will be more than enough for the scuba method, I hope.

Only asking as someone who was thinking SCBA but now not sure, what about concerns over not having air tight seal when face relaxes? Thought that was a risk with SCUBA, someone else reminded me it is also with SCBA (eg PPH advised against masks), but seen others here appear to do the SCBA/SCBUA methods...

 

[emptyh]

I use a CPAP machine at night and am wondering about options to use that, since I'm so used to it and have years of good feedback that the seal of the mask is good. It seems like it would work well, since it is forcing air into your lungs under pressure and the mask has built in venting for exhaling.

I was thinking about using a smallish, airtight plastic container to hold the CPAP machine. Then, turn on the cylinder and let the plastic box fill with inert gas for a minute or two before putting on the CPAP mask. I would also leave the cylinder open to ensure a steady supply continues. That would ensure that the CPAP is only pushing the inert gas through the mask. I would obviously need to make holes in the container for the CPAP power cord, CPAP tube, and tube from the cylinder to fill it with inert gas. Or, given that nitrogen is lighter than air, I should theoretically be able to position the CPAP so that it is near the top of the container. Then, the holes could be on the bottom and being airtight wouldn't be as big of an issue. Given that the seal between box and lid isn't guaranteed to be airtight, I could even place the plastic box upside down and have all the holes be through the lid, which is now the bottom.

What could cause this method to be ineffective?

Thanks!

 

[parasite_eve]

I use a CPAP machine at night and am wondering about options to use that, since I'm so used to it and have years of good feedback that the seal of the mask is good. It seems like it would work well, since it is forcing air into your lungs under pressure and the mask has built in venting for exhaling.

I was thinking about using a smallish, airtight plastic container to hold the CPAP machine. Then, turn on the cylinder and let the plastic box fill with inert gas for a minute or two before putting on the CPAP mask. I would also leave the cylinder open to ensure a steady supply continues. That would ensure that the CPAP is only pushing the inert gas through the mask. I would obviously need to make holes in the container for the CPAP power cord, CPAP tube, and tube from the cylinder to fill it with inert gas. Or, given that nitrogen is lighter than air, I should theoretically be able to position the CPAP so that it is near the top of the container. Then, the holes could be on the bottom and being airtight wouldn't be as big of an issue. Given that the seal between box and lid isn't guaranteed to be airtight, I could even place the plastic box upside down and have all the holes be through the lid, which is now the bottom.

What could cause this method to be ineffective?

Thanks!

Earlier in this thread (you should have search ability soon with more posts - off topic games can help) peeps reported CPAP and rebreather devices as not successful

It's exit bag (eb), emergency escape breathing device (eebd) hood, or scba/scuba but PPH only recommends eb & eebd hood

 

[emptyh]

Earlier in this thread (you should have search ability soon with more posts - off topic games can help) peeps reported CPAP and rebreather devices as not successful

It's exit bag (eb), emergency escape breathing device (eebd) hood, or scba/scuba but PPH only recommends eb & eebd hood

Thanks for the tip about how to get search functionality. I read quite a bit of this thread, but it's too long to read everything.

 

[justwannadip]

What do you guys think is more effective? Eebd hood or regular exit bag?

 

[outrider567]

Hoo

What do you guys think is more effective? Eebd hood or regular exit bag?

Hood for sure

 

[oono]

Only asking as someone who was thinking SCBA but now not sure, what about concerns over not having air tight seal when face relaxes? Thought that was a risk with SCUBA, someone else reminded me it is also with SCBA (eg PPH advised against masks), but seen others here appear to do the SCBA/SCBUA methods...

The scuba method is with a full face diving mask. I find this method so much simpler and safer than with a bag.. But this is a personal criticism.

If you want more information, there is the guide and megathread of the user "befree" on the scuba method. It is well explained.

 

[parasite_eve]

The scuba method is with a full face diving mask. I find this method so much simpler and safer than with a bag.. But this is a personal criticism.

If you want more information, there is the guide and megathread of the user "befree" on the scuba method. It is well explained.

totally relate - I'm thinking scba is a bit easier even (1 fewer adapter piece) per GasMonkey Setup thread and the positive pressure seems to mitigate risk of mask setup warned by PPH (but scuba may be easier to source and less costly)

however not at expert - just spent too much time going thru all the diff threads T_T

 

[NitrogenAfternoon]

My first post, please excuse me if this is not the way to ask, but this is the method that has always spoke to me, and my preferred one. What would happen if there was no exit bag, just my 20L dewar with the N2 and my car. If i just simply opened the lock cover and removed the neck plug of the 20L dewar while in my car, would this end up doing anything at all?

 

[emptyh]

Earlier in this thread (you should have search ability soon with more posts - off topic games can help) peeps reported CPAP and rebreather devices as not successful

It's exit bag (eb), emergency escape breathing device (eebd) hood, or scba/scuba but PPH only recommends eb & eebd hood

After doing some more reading, I think I figured out the issues with what I described.

First, even assuming that the mask doesn't let anything in that isn't supplied by the CPAP, a lot of air being sent by the CPAP will leak through the exhale vent holes. This would require a lot more inert gas at a much higher rate, meaning you'd need a much bigger tank.

Second, you need to be concerned about the rate at which the CPAP sends air out of the container and match that rate coming in from the tank. If you aren't supplying enough inert gas, air from outside the container would be sucked into the container through any holes that aren't airtight. Or if the holes are all airtight, it would affect the ability of the CPAP to continue pushing air because you'd essentially be trying to create a vacuum within the container.

 

[parasite_eve]

After doing some more reading, I think I figured out the issues with what I described.

First, even assuming that the mask doesn't let anything in that isn't supplied by the CPAP, a lot of air being sent by the CPAP will leak through the exhale vent holes. This would require a lot more inert gas at a much higher rate, meaning you'd need a much bigger tank.

Second, you need to be concerned about the rate at which the CPAP sends air out of the container and match that rate coming in from the tank. If you aren't supplying enough inert gas, air from outside the container would be sucked into the container through any holes that aren't airtight. Or if the holes are all airtight, it would affect the ability of the CPAP to continue pushing air because you'd essentially be trying to create a vacuum within the container.

You might also find this thread interesting where someone is working on alternative mask setup
Thread '3M mask as exit bag' https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/3m-mask-as-exit-bag.192815/

 

[Loaf of bread]

The air we breathe is 70 something % nitrogen. Is it possible to do any chemistry to remove the 21% oxygen and use that as the nitrogen cylinder?

Probably a silly question but doesnt hurt to ask, eh?

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

The air we breathe is 70 something % nitrogen. Is it possible to do any chemistry to remove the 21% oxygen and use that as the nitrogen cylinder?

Probably a silly question but doesnt hurt to ask, eh?

Sure, you can purchase a nitrogen generator but they aren't cheap, they start at around $2,000.

Alternatively you can buy a rebreather that removes the CO2 from the air as you keep breathing the same air over and over again, leaving nitrogen. Someone was selling a rebreather here a while ago, but it didn't work well and they eventually disappeared.

 

[Fire&Ash]

Has no one put a video up from beginning of setting up the tank and regulators and also making the bags and connecting it? Also I don't understand removing the oxygen before releasing the nitrogen. If you remove the oxygen won't you suffocate? Am I misunderstanding that?

 

[Loaf of bread]

Also I don't understand removing the oxygen before releasing the nitrogen. If you remove the oxygen won't you suffocate? Am I misunderstanding that?

The pain response occurs from CO2, not from lack of oxygen. There should be no pain unless there is CO2, which is produced from respiring oxygen. Thats how inert gas works, an atmosphere without CO2 or oxygen.

Has no one put a video up from beginning of setting up the tank and regulators and also making the bags and connecting it?

Can anyone find the archive of the doing with chi video? If one still exists? Or whatever the video was called

 

[Fire&Ash]

The pain response occurs from CO2, not from lack of oxygen. There should be no pain unless there is CO2, which is produced from respiring oxygen. Thats how inert gas works, an atmosphere without CO2 or oxygen.

Can anyone find the archive of the doing with chi video? If one still exists? Or whatever the video was called

What archive? Where do I find it?

 

[Loaf of bread]

There was an old inert gas setup video, called "doing it with chi" or "doing it with betty" (I forgot). It was taken down at some point, I am not sure if any archives exist. If there are, please share

 

[parasite_eve]

There was an old inert gas setup video, called "doing it with chi" or "doing it with betty" (I forgot). It was taken down at some point, I am not sure if any archives exist. If there are, please share

Inert Gas Cylinder & Regulator, General Refresher Summary:

I've stopped posting on this forum for various reasons--including some personal moral and ethical concerns, and the frustration with so many posters who refuse to do the most basic level of research into methods, even so far as bothering to read the relevant mega-threads on this site from the...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Inert Gas Setup 101

I got a lot of help and info from people on this site about inert gas setups. I just wanted to put together, in the simplest way, all what I've found to be very helpful to me, in the one thread. This following list of info relates to setups involving inert gas ( nitrogen/argon/helium), and...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Found these helpful with p1 on this for basics on this method, wishing us all peace <3

 

[Fire&Ash]

Can someone answer this? From my understanding, if I got a big plastic bag, those large turkey ones, and tapes the plastic tubing to the inside, is that the proper way? Also, trying to push oxygen out before putting bag on doesn't make sense to me? If I put the bag on my forehead, wait for the nitrogen to fill the bag up, and then pull down the bag on my head, is the oxygen gone and I did the method right? This is how I'm visualizing it but I don't this is right? I'm just stumped on removing the oxygen and then adding the nitrogen because I think if I just put the bag on and add nitrogen, I would start freaking out from the mix of both right?

 

[parasite_eve]

Can someone answer this? From my understanding, if I got a big plastic bag, those large turkey ones, and tapes the plastic tubing to the inside, is that the proper way? Also, trying to push oxygen out before putting bag on doesn't make sense to me? If I put the bag on my forehead, wait for the nitrogen to fill the bag up, and then pull down the bag on my head, is the oxygen gone and I did the method right? This is how I'm visualizing it but I don't this is right? I'm just stumped on removing the oxygen and then adding the nitrogen because I think if I just put the bag on and add nitrogen, I would start freaking out from the mix of both right?

The idea behind it is to create an oxygen free environment using the pressure from inflowing inert gas.

By using an elastic cord snug (but not sealed) and smushing out the air first, one can see the nitrogen filling up the bag and know it's ready to be pulled down; there may still be traces of o2 from pulling down over face to neck, but should be forced about quickly by the gas with any co2 exhaled until gas runs out.

I think this person spells it out clearly:

Inert Gas Cylinder & Regulator, General Refresher Summary:

I've stopped posting on this forum for various reasons--including some personal moral and ethical concerns, and the frustration with so many posters who refuse to do the most basic level of research into methods, even so far as bothering to read the relevant mega-threads on this site from the...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[Fire&Ash]

Hello everyone. I am having the worst time trying to find a regulator and flow meter. I know I can use argon/co regulator but it usually comes with 2 gauges. Which I'm not sure if I want that? And I can't find a proper flow meter. I have not found one flow meter that uses lpm on Amazon. I also don't know how I would combine these two things together to the cylinder. My original plan was to get a combined one but the units were not right. Help? Where did you get yours? Will you chat/conversation it with me?

 

[parasite_eve]

On regulators/ flow meters:

1. There should be two guages on a 2-in-1 regulator/ flowmeter: one showing pressure (how much you have left in the tank) and one showing flow rate (what we need to set to 15-19 LPM per PPH).

2. Many come with CFH instead of LPM but this can be converted using algebra or finding online converter site (DO NOT use GenAI).

3. I found options by searching (argon click style regulator) because I like how these can just be set easily to a certain flow rate 0-60 CFH for argon (0 to ~34 LPM for nitrogen). But also check out this for alt style and details on how to do the calculations:

Just finished putting together a nitrogen exit bag setup

I just thought I'd share a description of the gear I put together for inert gas asphyxiation with nitrogen and an exit bag. It's pretty basic since I felt it would be better to start with something simple and functional, then upgrade to SCBA/SCUBA or something else in the future if I have time...

sanctioned-suicide.net

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-inert-gas-materials-canada.194144/

 

[Fire&Ash]

On regulators/ flow meters:

1. There should be two guages on a 2-in-1 regulator/ flowmeter: one showing pressure (how much you have left in the tank) and one showing flow rate (what we need to set to 15-19 LPM per PPH).

2. Many come with CFH instead of LPM but this can be converted using algebra or finding online converter site (DO NOT use GenAI).

3. I found options by searching (argon click style regulator) because I like how these can just be set easily to a certain flow rate 0-60 CFH for argon (0 to ~34 LPM for nitrogen). But also check out this for alt style and details on how to do the calculations:

Just finished putting together a nitrogen exit bag setup

I just thought I'd share a description of the gear I put together for inert gas asphyxiation with nitrogen and an exit bag. It's pretty basic since I felt it would be better to start with something simple and functional, then upgrade to SCBA/SCUBA or something else in the future if I have time...

sanctioned-suicide.net

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-inert-gas-materials-canada.194144/

Ya I've been looking for one through Amazon and Airgas. Idk. I just see regulators with 2 pressure gauges (low-high) but no flow meter. I did find one with one pressure gauge with a glass tube flow meter but the flow meter is not right.

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

Ya I've been looking for one through Amazon and Airgas. Idk. I just see regulators with 2 pressure gauges (low-high) but no flow meter. I did find one with one pressure gauge with a glass tube flow meter but the flow meter is not right.

Are you in the US? Regulators vary a bit in different parts of the world due to different units and standards for fittings.

When I search Amazon for argon regulators in the US I'm getting around 10 suitable results ranging from $20 to $150 in price. Thet all look similar to this:

Alternatively you could get a 2-gauge pressure regulator along with a separate nitrogen flow meter. You would have to connect the regulators together and set the pressure regulator to produce the output pressure needed by the flow regulator (50 psi I believe). The advantage is you could get a nitrogen flow meter instead of argon and eliminate the need for unit conversions.

 

[iwantpeacenopain]

Greetings to all. I've been researching the inert gas method extensively for a while and, on balance, it's my preferred method to CTB, as other options like firearms and even SN are very difficult to source in the UK. I've read some comments about suitable inert gases being difficult to source as a private customer and that's also true. That said, I have managed to obtain a 1300L cylinder of 99.998% argon. I'm working on getting a nitrogen cylinder, also. If I'm successful in obtaining nitrogen, I'll run my tests and try to CTB with that. If not, I'll go with the argon. My preference for nitrogen is based on:
a) it seems to be a "preferred" choice, now high purity helium is difficult to source
b) lower weight than argon.

I have a few questions that the knowledgeable among us may be able to answer:

1) With regards to the higher weight of argon versus nitrogen and the theory that argon will more readily flush out of an exit bag to be replaced by external air, do you think a higher flow rate and higher positive pressure (20 or 25L per minute?) will adequately compensate for any difference in gas weight? (Obviously, I'll need to factor in that the gas won't last as long but will still be in excess of 50 minutes).

2) Some people on this thread have questioned if their nitrogen is mixed with O2 and have recommended testing gas for O2. Given the normal uses of nitrogen, isn't CO2 a more likely additive/ deliberate contaminant? Could this account for some of the failures documented in this thread, where SI has kicked in (because of high CO2 levels)? Presumably, CO2 can also be tested for? (I still fully support testing your gas for O2, after all why would you leave anything to chance?)

3) how significant is the Supply Pressure Effect (where output pressure from the regulator increases as the cylinder pressure drops) when using a single-stage regulator? I appreciate that it will depend on variables such as the regulator, cylinder pressure and flow rate, but is this something that will significantly reduce total gas flow time, or should I not worry about this?

4) I'm particularly interested to hear any experiences people have using / testing both nitrogen and argon and any differences noted

1) Louder than you expect but then you do have your head in a bag
2) I recommend going to the start of this thread and reading about the Swiss bus-catchers whose efforts were timed and recorded. I could tell you but it's better for you to read it yourself and make up your own mind.
3) No, it's a separate purchase
4) Yes. Strongly recommend watching "doing it with Betty" and reading the PPH for this.
5) In theory, sure you can but I think the volume of the bag is too much. Also, that's a non-transparent bag and claustrophobia is a thing.
6) I can't read the measurement units but it looks like it's LPM on an argon / CO2 regulator. But always best to confirm with the retailer or manufacturer

Were you able to source a Nitrogen cylinder + regulator + cylinder?

 

[devils~advocate]

Exit Hood Method (using manufactured hood)

https://www.allegrosafety.com/product/tyvek-supplied-air-respirator-hood/

These items are readily available on Amazon & Ebay

 

[zardofan]

View attachment 159039
Exit Hood Method (using manufactured hood)

https://www.allegrosafety.com/product/tyvek-supplied-air-respirator-hood/

These items are readily available on Amazon & Ebay

I just put this hood in my cart and then balked realizing I didn't know how to connect it to the tubing. The PPEH doesn't show it, the video just shows it all connected and then shows the O2 going down and down. So THANK YOU for this diagram! I may end up going turkey bag/elastic/toggle clip anyway but at least I know what to do if I go this route. So grateful!

 

[zardofan]

Oh my goodness I just hung up with a vendor, picking up the N2 cylinder today! It's much larger than needed but they don't have 20 or 40 in stock so 60 it is! I feel so relieved. Next step regulator!

 

[human909]

It shouldn't be that complicated right?