Discussion What is the point in being male anymore?

[enviro400mmc]

This is what I suspect as well.

You have to know who your peers are and be willing to swim in THAT pond.

You have to be willing to accept an invitation from someone who is just as scarce in the looks and 'value' department as you are.

Once upon a time when I was actively dating, I'd pursue guys I knew were out of my league.

Instead of pursuing more realistic options - I set out to chase someone I knew deep down I couldn't have.

If I had adjusted my expectations by a few degrees, I could've been swimming in attention and affection and whatever else I wanted. Just not from WHO I wanted.

 

[7thundercloud]

Bro you have my respect. Being a man is taking the hard road in life, and you transitioning into that. Honestly as someone born a guy, it was more brutal before. We used to get taught boys don't cry, just push it down. Middle isn't anyone's fond memories.

I've read a couple stories about trans guys having trouble getting treated as biological guys in this day and age and having anxiety because of it so I'm curious what your say is about it.

Hmm, I guess it mostly has to do with how well those people pass in real life. I think a lot of trans guys who don't necessarily "pass" mainly just want the typical dude bro talk between guys, maybe being seen as masculine and someone you can depend on, strong, casual joking around. That's kinda how I grew up seeing men, and it's a good feeling sometimes when people feel safe with you or you can joke with each other, and also playing sports or wrestling where they don't view you as weak and actually put in the effort. Obviously, it has its drawbacks, like even though some people do feel safe with you, it's clear a lot don't. I've noticed this when sitting on the bus, every time there's a seat open next to me and the rest of the bus is full, a lot of women choose to just stand or walk all the way to the back of the bus to sit next to another woman. I've been observing this my entire time at college and I find it interesting yet sad that, women feel unsafe around a lot of men, and men in general are perceived as unsafe (this obviously applies to strangers only). Though that can't always be the case as I myself just hate being squished between two people. There are a lot more cons of being a man, but I think trans people are (for the most part) ready to face the consequences that come with being the opposite gender. Like trans women don't try to pass so they can be catcalled on the street and sexualized by others, it's to deal with their own gender dysphoria. I completely understand the anxiety, some people think of us as a fetish or these cute little things that need protection. So I truly feel for those with that anxiety.

There's also that thing where they mockingly treat you as your identified gender. I remember in middle school being dragged down this (I think 10 ft tall) icy snow hill by one of my male friends, he yelled at me and told me "if you wanna be a boy, that's how you're gonna be treated". I had scratch marks all over my stomach and legs, I was bleeding and some other girl also kept making snarky remarks about me being trans. If they know you're trans, they either treat you like a baby, like you're actual gender, or they treat you worse than how that gender is usually treated. Speaking of "boys don't cry", there's an actual movie called that, it perfectly embodies this whole thing. I think that's the main part of where the anxiety comes from, being harmed.

I also know I just listed a bunch of stereotypes that come with being a man, but I think that's partly how this gender dysphoria thing is formed. I don't have any scientific proof of it but it's just my theory.

 

[SexyIncél]

This forum's formatting is b0rken, so I just pasted my realization into whatsapp...

Spoiler: first, AI came for the incels...

 

[canyouseeme]

This is ironic. Women get blasted so much if theyre shown to have any sort of preference ie height. Women are seen as "demons" if they state they prefer "taller" men hence the memes like "6'0 since that matters." But men saying they must be over 7/10, white/asian, tiny waist and big ass and tits, etc. Thats totally fine... because pReFeRenCe. I think society makes it seem like its okay to be super critical of a womans value publicly, and nobody bats an eye. But men face the slightly the same sort of thing its "evil" apparently. Btw I believe that people should be treated with common decency no matter who they are and what they look like as long as they arent causing harm to others. Btw im not attacking some average joes or anything im saying what Ive observed I know this is a generalization and my experience as a women as well so don't misunderstand here I know not all men are "bad".

My point being, everyone, no matter what their sex/gender/what they identify with are, have an ideal person/a dream girl or boy that they ultimately would jump miles and obstacles if they had a chance to date them, whether their bias of what they find ideal is related to the environment I grew up in i dont know. Honestly despite what I have written previously I think its OKAY to have preferences, so if women actually have some... what they consider standards then thats OKAY. Men have standards too and don't tell me you don't because thats a blatant lie. Its human nature we strive for the best all the time as opportunists.

To OP its unfortunate you are experiencing this, I don't know if there is any way to improve your social value in the current place you're in. In terms of looks though I know different countries/cultures have different standards for people maybe not by much but still noticeable. I don't know what types of women you looked for or what you wanna do, but again people have different tastes. For example many men grow beards thinking its attractive, I for one find beards unappealing (no offense) im probably in the minority but just remember not all women have the same hivemind mentality same with men.

 

[SexyIncél]

To OP its unfortunate you are experiencing this, I don't know if there is any way to improve your social value in the current place you're in.

Ironically, you offer a better standard of value than much of the manosphere. I've been studying "theories of value" lately. You're using one aimed at getting laid/companions

Weirdly enough, the original High Value Man theory's different. He has $$$, a strong network of other High Value Men, and helps others. Aimed at building old boy networks, strengthening any men's movement

Like many women here advise, marketing depts target market-segments with certain needs/wants/demand

Incel theories oppose these women's theories of value. Because they're fatalistic, reduce everything to biology, subordinate themselves to Chad, resent Becky/Stacy, and don't desire other women. Ever wonder why it's like talking to a brick wall? That's the reason

They're not losers. Because they're not really players

But to be clear, I'm still salty about the SaSu thread where a suicidal guy was misinterpreted as incel/racist. Ruthlessly humiliated. Maybe it killed him. Traumatized me

My own theory of value is a bit different. I analyze people who bump into me. To see if I can help transform them and remove their obstacles. Realizing their life's goals. Increasing pleasure, decreasing suffering. Dynamic, not static. I don't consciously use much notion of market segment

Monogamy raises the stakes: you get one (1) companion. Ideally The Very Best you can get. The calculations are brutal. It'd better be, because you'll probably be with them Every. Single. Day.

Less brutal is some form of polyamory. People do this with friends all the time. They have a BFF or 2, then a bunch of other friends for specific things. This allows you share companionship with someone otherwise lonely, just because they have a nice goofy smile or moral backbone

 

[ManchildLoser]

The reason for that is because men always want something from us. They always want to sexualize us. Most don't respect us. And we would rather not deal with their misogyny. Now when a guy is authentic and a decent being then they get a different reaction. Maybe it's your approach. Either way men aren't the victim in this scenario.

When men are being assholes with women, you hate them, and when men are nice and respectful with women, they're just assholes pretending to be nice because they want something.

Forget it guys, you cant win.
You will be forever an asshole no matter what.

But seriously I think i've never seen so much misandry on this site from a single person. Congrats.

 

[detectiveprince]

Easy solution: date other men
Because sure as hell, with those completely twisted perceptions of women you will not be getting into a relationship with a gal anytime soon.

 

[Roseate]

When men are being assholes with women, you hate them, and when men are nice and respectful with women, they're just assholes pretending to be nice because they want something.

Forget it guys, you cant win.
You will be forever an asshole no matter what.

But seriously I think i've never seen so much misandry on this site from a single person. Congrats.

I can tell when a men is genuinely nice, you know I'm not stupid, right? When a men comes up to me and he is being genuinely nice, usually I am nice in return. I don't go around assuming. I usually give people a chance to speak first and I listen to my guts because it is always right. If something is off about someone, surely our bodies and minds will tell us. I always listen to my first instincts but also give them a chance to speak. Also, why are you acting like I have a different rule for women? The only difference here is a women who is attracted to a women will not make it so obvious which I personally like. Also, when men come flirt with girls, they are making an assumption. Not every girls is straight or like men. And sometimes, we're not interested in being with anyone. I'm not interested in that and I would rather not be approached and cat call in the middle of the street. It's disrespectful. Also, I make it clear because I always wear my headphones yet they still do it. Read people body language. I don't understand because it isn't hard to tell when someone doesn't want to talk. I'll listen sometimes and let them down easily, I'm not interested. I don't care how hot a guy is. I'm just not interested. He could be hot or socially "ugly" but I will basically have the same answer for both and that is no. I'm not interested in being in a relationship.

 

[Shy_Shay]

Easy solution: date other men
Because sure as hell, with those completely twisted perceptions of women you will not be getting into a relationship with a gal anytime soon.

didn't expected a Akechi to answer this thread, Pleasure to meet you Crow

 

[Mr. ‘K so?]

Hmm, I guess it mostly has to do with how well those people pass in real life. I think a lot of trans guys who don't necessarily "pass" mainly just want the typical dude bro talk between guys, maybe being seen as masculine and someone you can depend on, strong, casual joking around. That's kinda how I grew up seeing men, and it's a good feeling sometimes when people feel safe with you or you can joke with each other, and also playing sports or wrestling where they don't view you as weak and actually put in the effort. Obviously, it has its drawbacks, like even though some people do feel safe with you, it's clear a lot don't. I've noticed this when sitting on the bus, every time there's a seat open next to me and the rest of the bus is full, a lot of women choose to just stand or walk all the way to the back of the bus to sit next to another woman. I've been observing this my entire time at college and I find it interesting yet sad that, women feel unsafe around a lot of men, and men in general are perceived as unsafe (this obviously applies to strangers only). Though that can't always be the case as I myself just hate being squished between two people. There are a lot more cons of being a man, but I think trans people are (for the most part) ready to face the consequences that come with being the opposite gender. Like trans women don't try to pass so they can be catcalled on the street and sexualized by others, it's to deal with their own gender dysphoria. I completely understand the anxiety, some people think of us as a fetish or these cute little things that need protection. So I truly feel for those with that anxiety.

There's also that thing where they mockingly treat you as your identified gender. I remember in middle school being dragged down this (I think 10 ft tall) icy snow hill by one of my male friends, he yelled at me and told me "if you wanna be a boy, that's how you're gonna be treated". I had scratch marks all over my stomach and legs, I was bleeding and some other girl also kept making snarky remarks about me being trans. If they know you're trans, they either treat you like a baby, like you're actual gender, or they treat you worse than how that gender is usually treated. Speaking of "boys don't cry", there's an actual movie called that, it perfectly embodies this whole thing. I think that's the main part of where the anxiety comes from, being harmed.

I also know I just listed a bunch of stereotypes that come with being a man, but I think that's partly how this gender dysphoria thing is formed. I don't have any scientific proof of it but it's just my theory.

I didn't know that was the title of a movie, but when I looked at it, I already knew exactly what case it was about. Horrible thing that happened to someone who did absolutely nothing. Good looking person both ways, as a chick and a dude no homo.

It's not stereotyping if you're talking about actual guy things. I like to use the song from Mulan as my reference for what's expected of me. You're info and opinions are worth gold bro, trans people where I live are too soft to introspect long enough to answer that with personal experiences. If you got discord, pm me

 

[detectiveprince]

didn't expected a Akechi to answer this thread, Pleasure to meet you Crow

Haha, hello there.

 

[AnnonyBox]

This initial post is rife with damaging gender standards. Men are human too, they don't have to do anything beyond what they decide is of value to their lives. The issues you listed apply to women too. AI is coming for EVERYONE's jobs, because greedy elitist fucks don't want to pay salaries.

 

[NotHuman]

Gender war aside, the OP does resonate with me insofar as the loss of male identity. Women's struggles are often structural in nature whereas men's problems simply don't have such a straightforward resolution in terms of addressing bad actors or tyrannical power structures. Even the most extreme perspectives don't offer any tenable solution, just a revenge fantasy. Women's standards are what they are, machines will only further render men's labor obsolete, and the trend of purposeless NEETs drifting through life will continue.

I had given up on love long ago, but that was before I realized how readily my best friend would ditch me for romance. I thought as long as I had male friendships I could be content in life. I wish I had known sooner how cheap and meaningless friendship is, that I was always meant to be discarded like plastic kitchenware once they got the sterling silverware they had been eyeing all along. I'd have tried harder.

Now I'm too old anyway. Nearly a middle-aged autistic man who couldn't even establish a single friendship with a woman over a lifetime, not even when they were fellow outcasts with depression or anxiety. Wish I could so much as be seen to have any value, but all I can do is entertain other lonely men until they find someone better.

 

[Octavia]

When men are being assholes with women, you hate them, and when men are nice and respectful with women, they're just assholes pretending to be nice because they want something.

Forget it guys, you cant win.
You will be forever an asshole no matter what.

But seriously I think i've never seen so much misandry on this site from a single person. Congrats.

There is a difference between a guy being nice/respectful and a guy being nice just to get into someone's pants, and you would be surprised how often the latter happens to women. Every single girl I know have been approached and hit on by strangers starting from their teens, and usually said stranger is much older than them.

You seem to believe that the only options when it comes to women is to either be a jerk towards them or to be nice with them, how about just not hitting on people you do not have business with? Sure, while waiting in class I wouldn't mind chatting with a classmate that I do not know yet and it could actually lead to a nice friendship, however if I am doing something such as coursework in a public space i.e. a library, I would very much prefer to not be disturbed because someone wishes to court me, especially if said someone is not even close to my age. Yes, perhaps that you may think of actions such as slipping someone your phone number or backing off after a "no" is respectful, and while that it is indeed better than loutish things like catcalling it can nonetheless still be very annoying.

 

[ManchildLoser]

There is a difference between a guy being nice/respectful and a guy being nice just to get into someone's pants, and you would be surprised how often the latter happens to women. Every single girl I know have been approached and hit on by strangers starting from their teens, and usually said stranger is much older than them.

You seem to believe that the only options when it comes to women is to either be a jerk towards them or to be nice with them, how about just not hitting on people you do not have business with? Sure, while waiting in class I wouldn't mind chatting with a classmate that I do not know yet and it could actually lead to a nice friendship, however if I am doing something such as coursework in a public space i.e. a library, I would very much prefer to not be disturbed because someone wishes to court me, especially if said someone is not even close to my age. Yes, perhaps that you may think of actions such as slipping someone your phone number or backing off after a "no" is respectful, and while that it is indeed better than loutish things like catcalling it can nonetheless still be very annoying.

So what do you think a man who wants to find love should do? Nothing? Just be miserable? Or Go on dating apps where girls just want attention? You havent provided a solution

 

[Octavia]

So what do you think a man who wants to find love should do? Nothing? Just be miserable? Or Go on dating apps where girls just want attention? You havent provided a solution

Well, first of all, go for people around their age instead of pestering schoolgirls. Secondly, not hit on random strangers in public spaces? They can try to find someone in their friend circle who has similar hobbies/values, and see if there is mutual interest. If they are not able to be acquainted with ladies without asking them out as the first thing they do, then they should really try to start seeing women as people instead of just being potential mates.

 

[bleakhouse]

Being a man is just annoying because it seems so obviously unfair, like I'm clearly just not built to be happy and that seems like the fate of so many more men than women.

A lot of men just have nothing going for them in a way few women are: in a pinch, women find friendship easier, maternal instincts mean they get genuine fulfillment from small animals and cute things. The 'spinster' life is 100% a viable route for happiness for women.

The main asymmetry is that nothing likes this exists for the normal male character.

I'm just jealous of the people who have some passion, activity or craft that nourishes their soul and gives their life meaning. Theverage man, it seems, does not have this and lives a life of profound meaningless and spiritual emptiness - especially compared to women.

 

[Housefly]

So males are having less sex and are lonely or acting up because of it... Who are women fucking? "Women are whores and fuck hypergamously" salty but let's run with that. Why do you want a woman who just wants you for your money or to increase their status being around you. She's probably not even clean because she's giving the same circle of men. If this is where you are might as well hire an escort.

"All the good girls aren't into men" gay girls are out there however the number of lgbt members in most places is 1% approximately.

Ok that's a small number of gay girls and 'whores', where are the rest of them, they must be out there somewhere. They could be focusing on things that aren't romantic relationships. Embracing platonic friendships and maybe a feb here and there.

OP is a product of a horrible societal expectations placed on men by other men. "Your get no bitches" but you're 15 . You harm your own self esteem by listening to garbage like "it's because you aren't a CHAD" yet when you look around the real world and see average looking people in your opinion on long lasting relationships all the time.

Tldr get off the Internet and stop communication with people who make you feel bad about not being in a relationship.

 

[notevenhere]

This thread is... chaotic

 

[Lost in a Dream]

This thread is... chaotic

Nooo, don't revive it! This thread needs a "do not resuscitate" order so it doesn't come back.

 

[ChildrensITV]

Easy solution: date other men
Because sure as hell, with those completely twisted perceptions of women you will not be getting into a relationship with a gal anytime soon.

Wait? Women never pick the wrong guy and end up in abusive relationships??? Not that I would ever abuse a woman, cuz I'm not like that.

 

[hermestrimegistus]

This isnt a gendered issue. Imagine what its like to be an unattractive female. Same set of issues you're describing. This is devisive and solves nothing

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Nooo, don't revive it! This thread needs a "do not resuscitate" order so it doesn't come back.

I agree, saw it once and then I just said "nah, let me get back to researching sn and other topics".

 

[achb]

Men have value outside of their sexual and romantic relationships with women.

We are talking about half the population here. Worth is not only measured by how likely they are to mate. Evolution be damned, our value is not determined by how many people we can fuck to reproduce.

Just look at gay people. Gay people cannot reproduce. That does not mean they have no value.

As for the "women are better off without men," honestly this is a solvable problem. And the solution is not "make all the men ctb." It's to change the way they are raised and socialized and taught.

Most women would agree a gay man is safer than a straight one. Why? Because they have no interest in fucking them? Partly yes, but also because gay men are more likely to act in a nonthreatening manner, to give off an air of safety, to care about womens' issues, to empathize, etc etc.

Even straight men that "act gay" are going to be trusted 10x more than one that doesn't. Because it isn't only abt the lack of sexual interest. It is also about the attitude and behavior they show. It's about seeing women as people rather than objects and showing that.

 

[ChildrensITV]

This isnt a gendered issue. Imagine what its like to be an unattractive female. Same set of issues you're describing. This is devisive and solves nothing

It is. From what I understand:

A lot of nongoodlooking men: Can't get into relationships, have to rightswipe 100s of women to get a match, women don't like being approached IRL much anymore.

A lot of nongoodlooking women: get into relationships with men who might not want them long-term, are likely to get bad treatment from said men, or these women might feel like they're settling for these men, or these women might choose to stay single cuz they can't get the men they really want and don't want to date men on their own level, etc.

 

[hermestrimegistus]

It is. From what I understand:

A lot of nongoodlooking men: Can't get into relationships, have to rightswipe 100s of women to get a match, women don't like being approached IRL much anymore.

A lot of nongoodlooking women: get into relationships with men who might not want them long-term, are likely to get bad treatment from said men, or these women might feel like they're settling for these men, or these women might choose to stay single cuz they can't get the men they really want and don't want to date men on their own level, etc.

Wait. I'm confused. So these so called non-good-looking women get into relationships with who exactly? Attractive men who are settling? That seems unlikely. from what you're saying "nongoodlooking" men can't get a relationship. Something isn't adding up here.
Yeah, ugly women can get pump and dumped. But theyre viewed as low value and have the same issues you're claiming to struggle with. I understand your plight and I have sympathy but it seems like you just want victim status. This is totally not a gendered issue. This is a material based superficial issue. And this is not coming from some batshit radfem. I actually somewhat understand the desire to be MGTOW. It's just dumb to not realize this goes both ways.

these women might choose to stay single cuz they can't get the men they really want and don't want to date men on their own level

Okay. Flip the genders. Its the same fucking issue. Half of the dudes complaining about not being able to find a girlfriend or even just get laid don't want to fuck people in their own league. Or lack self awareness. Its really just the top percentile of attractive people who have their pick of the litter. It truly is not a gendered thing. People talk about hypergamy but in this girlboss day and age it absolutely goes both ways

 

[ChildrensITV]

Wait. I'm confused. So these so called non-good-looking women get into relationships with who exactly? Attractive men who are settling? That seems unlikely. from what you're saying "nongoodlooking" men can't get a relationship. Something isn't adding up here.
Yeah, ugly women can get pump and dumped. But theyre viewed as low value and have the same issues you're claiming to struggle with. I understand your plight and I have sympathy but it seems like you just want victim status. This is totally not a gendered issue. This is a material based superficial issue. And this is not coming from some batshit radfem. I actually somewhat understand the desire to be MGTOW. It's just dumb to not realize this goes both ways.

Okay. Flip the genders. Its the same fucking issue. Half of the dudes complaining about not being able to find a girlfriend or even just get laid don't want to fuck people in their own league. Or lack self awareness. Its really just the top percentile of attractive people who have their pick of the litter. It truly is not a gendered thing. People talk about hypergamy but in this girlboss day and age it absolutely goes both ways

I was trying to be polite, using euphemisms but I will just say it outright:

Most ugly men get nothing. Most ugly women get with either: (some) ugly men, more likely with average-looking men, and struggle to keep above average-looking men (they might get pumped and dumped) and will hardly ever get an outright goodlooking man.

There is more nuance between just "ugly" and "goodlooking". I don't want victim status. I want charts like this not to be controversial or ignored:

This chart shouldn't be seen as sexist or blaming anyone. It is just a description of reality. In fact, I would say men are more likely to lie about sex they're having, so it's probably worse.

It's great that women don't need to be shackled to some male provider that they don't like anymore. With their impowerment has come their freedom to choose who they wish, which we can agree is a good thing. Who would want to be married to someone who is just there out of duty? The thing is, men haven't changed. It isn't men's empowerment that is driving the wedge. As women's empowerment grows, women like fewer men and need men less. The last iteration of this was online-dating and social media which gave women's value a huge boost. There are men out there who pay women to send them a text. Women are in high demand.

 

[hermestrimegistus]

I was trying to be polite, using euphemisms but I will just say it outright:

Most ugly men get nothing. Most ugly women get with either: (some) ugly men, more likely with average-looking men, and struggle to keep above average-looking men (they might get pumped and dumped) and will hardly ever get an outright goodlooking man.

There is more nuance between just "ugly" and "goodlooking". I don't want victim status. I want charts like this not to be controversial or ignored:

This chart shouldn't be seen as sexist or blaming anyone. It is just a description of reality. In fact, I would say men are more likely to lie about sex they're having, so it's probably worse.

It's great that women don't need to be shackled to some male provider that they don't like anymore. With their impowerment has come their freedom to choose who they wish, which we can agree is a good thing. Who would want to be married to someone who is just there out of duty? The thing is, men haven't changed. It isn't men's empowerment that is driving the wedge. As women's empowerment grows, women like fewer men and need men less. The last iteration of this was online-dating and social media which gave women's value a huge boost. There are men out there who pay women to send them a text. Women are in high demand.

A certain demographic of high maintenance women are in high demand. Thats what you're clearly failing to mention. And I honestly don't agree with that. I don't think we need anymore strong-independent-woman-don't-need-no-man cases. I don't think that helps any case. For either party. I also think social media helps no one. Reduces everybody to their sex organs and nothing else. Its not just women. Its the small demographic of conventional attractive human beings that are in high demand. Have you never seen e-boys before? Its the same thing as when women make a profit off of lonely and desperate men. Its an equal playing field. You just dont want to let go of your victim status. Ugly undesirable women such as myself have it the same way you do. You could be out there getting pumped and dumped simply because you have a dick. Theres no difference. You just dont want to be self aware and want victim status. Switch positions for two seconds