some words of "advice" to young men on here

[SoftWorries]

OP do better

 

[miserabletires9]

The term "incel" implies that they blame women for not being attracted to them. At least from what I have seen, the men on this site don't blame women for not being attracted to them. They blame themselves. They don't wish to destroy women like actual incels do, they wish to destroy themselves instead.

In regards to what you said, if the guy you're with turned out to be extremely ugly to you, would you still be with him today? If yes, then that is remarkable and an extremely rare case indeed. If not then, well idk really. I'd just like an honest answer. It won't make you seem bad or anything. It is human nature to care a lot about looks.

"The term "incel" implies that they blame women for not being attracted to them"

I call myself a femcel, a female version of incel. I never blame men, I blame myself.

Incel means involuntary celebate. Never had any undertones about who's to blame for that celebecy

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Other stuff matters to women more than looks, have you guys seen Mike Tindall? He managed to marry one of the royal family and he's not exactly an oil painting and she could've had absolutely anyone. Women date ugly men ALL the time.

 

[Zelda-frog]

Women are emotional creature.

This has me crying lmaoo

 

[WorthlessTrash]

"The term "incel" implies that they blame women for not being attracted to them"

I call myself a femcel, a female version of incel. I never blame men, I blame myself.

Incel means involuntary celebate. Never had any undertones about who's to blame for that celebecy

femcel and incel means that you involuntarily lack romantic and/or sexual relationships.

On the other thread, you implied you have had sexual and romantic relations. Even on this thread, you implied you did have a relationship with someone. You do not fall under the "involuntary celibate" umbrella. You are trying to relate so hard to the very people you are giving advice to in order to make your advice seem more credible, and it just isn't working.

All I am trying to say is that using your own personal experience (and Im going to say this under the assumption that looks don't matter as much to you) does not translate to advice that can be widespread. If looks do matter a lot to most women, then saying to men on here that looks aren't that important isn't going to solve anything. ATP, your advice may as well be "try until you find someone who doesn't care much about looks", but many people here that you'd give this advice to are just flat out tired. In fact, most of us here are in general are tired of trying to make life worth living in spite of why we want to CTB, which is why we are here in the first place.

Anyways on an unrelated note, despite how much I disagree with what you say, I am very sorry that you have your own reasons for being on this site. I hold no ill will towards you for having an opposite opinion.

 

[Pluto]

Incel means involuntary celebate. Never had any undertones about who's to blame for that celebecy

Have to disagree here; @BornTheWrongSex's definition stands. Otherwise, it's like saying Nazi just innocently means national socialist and has no association with violence or hate. As hurtful as rejection can be for young men, we must stand firmly against misogyny and avoid normalising this sort of terminology.

As to the broader topic, as an older male, I can make a few comments.

Looks is a barrier but not necessarily a deal-breaker. A lot of dating advice seems to be based around learning to emulate the characteristics of dark triad men; if done right it is said to be effective, mutually satisfying and does not need to be unethical.

For many of us here, though, serious mental or physical disability changes things significantly. It took me a long time to realise that in my own case, a childhood of growing up around highly abusive sisters left me with a pathological inability to feel safe around girls. (I also went to an all-boys school, too, so only ever saw the opposite gender at their worst.) The awkwardness meant that nothing I did ever worked, yet it took many years to actually realise that CPTSD was the issue.

Even regular old depression can be a very serious barrier. Plus there are further issues caused by ageing without the expected experience. The question of whether a man is 'doomed' or not needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis. In the majority of cases, I would say that there is hope, but it will generally require a very serious effort on a number of fronts, and probably employing the guidance of people with real knowledge on the topic. I would never claim it would be super-easy like just reframing to an optimistic mindset.

I may be ignorant, but if anything I would suspect that any woman with reasonable mental health, who makes the effort to be fit, is aware of pitfalls (such as the dangers posed by actual dark triad men) and doesn't mind putting herself out there on dating apps is almost guaranteed success. I have seen this repeatedly. But I'm totally unqualified to make a definitive statement so can only share what I've seen.

Apologies in advice if anything I've said comes across as offensive.

 

[Twoped538]

1) Men has a tremendous age advantage over women. You guys can produce children in your 70s, 80s. There's no biological clock ticking for you
2) Men in their 20s, most of them look awkward. When I was in my 20s, I never wanted to date anyone in my age group. They just look awkward. Things would get much better once you turn 30s, and your physical features all grown out, and look more manly
3) Looks don't matter that much for man. Women are emotional creature. We care more about the emotional connection. Men I meet, they would go from a 6 to a 9 when I, inexplicitly, feel an emotional connection, be it him lying to him and saying the right things, or just fill that emotional void that I've been experiencing.
4) Your 20s should not be about girls. I know maybe your hormones all fucked up. But your 20s should be working your ass off, build that business, making that first bucket of money. Your sense of achievement in business, career, and gym, would give you so much more confidence.

To quote Kevin Samuels, god rest his soul, women control access to sex, men control access to marriage. Once u turn into late 20s, early 30s, life would be so much better for you. You have more power in this man/woman dynamics than you know.

You are so wrong, the opposite is true:
1. Women have the upper hand, as they decide to bring a child into the world, or not. Getting pregnant is not difficult for most women, and the state (or government) will provide handouts to single mothers, so women don't need to pair up with men anymore.
2. Generally, women do not appreciate young men (in their 20s) because these men have yet to acquire wealth and power. If a young man becomes very rich, he will turn from a 6 into a 9 immediately, because suddenly she will feel "an emotional connection" without knowing why. And suddenly he looks handsome, instead of awkward.
3. Lately, looks have become important for men too, because even average looking young women have become very picky and only want to date 8s, 9s and 10s. These young women succeed in having sex with those top guys, because these guys do not mind having fun with lots of young women, including the average looking ones. Thus, most women can afford it to remain very picky till the age of about 30, when they find out the top men are losing interest in them.
4. According to your point no. 4, average men in their 20s should not complain. They must be trained to be good providers: work their asses off and should not have sexual desires till they are in their 30s. All of that is beneficial for them because it "would give them so much more confidence". It is just very unfortunate that their "f***ed-up hormones" will not adjust to your utopia. Maybe one day there will be some (blue?) pill they can take daily, which will turn them all into happy nice guys.

Now, according to me, this present sh*t storm does not mean suicide is the best thing to do. Neither would I shame those who are so terribly lonely that they do want to end their lives.

 

[Kittzuni]

Is it just me or is this shit really shallow?

OP has to be a troll right? Similar to the guy preaching religion the other day.

Edit: after reading all of it, I have one more thing to say as a demisexual woman:
OP, please stop trying to speak for women. You are blatantly contradicting yourself and you're mostly comparing apples to oranges. Listen to these guys arguments.

What you wanted to say could have been phrased so differently. You could have said something along the lines of "some women don't care about looks as much as some of you might thing" in the recovery section.

 

[Nikalakon]

"The halo effect is a cognitive bias that claims that positive impressions of people, brands, and products in one area positively influence our feelings in another area.

An example of the halo effect is when one assumes that a good-looking person in a photograph is also an overall good person. This error in judgment reflects one's individual preferences, prejudices, ideology, and social perception.

The halo effect occurs because human social perception is a constructive process. When we form impressions of others, we do not rely solely on objective information; instead, we actively construct an image that fits in with what we already know.

While there are a number of factors that can influence the halo effect, a person's attractiveness is among the most common characteristics to produce cognitive bias. Physical attributes such as weight, hair, and eye color contribute to perceptions of attractiveness. Research has revealed that attractiveness may affect perceptions tied to life success and personality.

Being aware of the halo effect does not eliminate the bias from our lives"

Arguments that suggest that we are not influenced by looks are based on the notion that we can voluntarily decide not to be impacted by it, i.e. that we choose to prefer other factors, like personality. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how our brain actually works. These cognitive biases happen in our subconscious. We are initially attracted and, from there, the influence that this has modifies our perception of a variety of traits, characteristics or behaviour, like how funny the person is for example . Our "reason" may fight back as it's threatening to our ego that we are not in control and it makes us appear shallow, but the study of basic psychology suggests that this is indeed what is happening. And by the way, this is true for both men and women. We are all humans... In any event, this is why anecdotal evidences are usually useless. They are the result of what we think and know, not what occurs in our subconscious.

Now these cognitive biases are not explaining everything. Some people exhibit more of them, some less, but a science like psychology is about explaining general behaviour, not each and everyone of our actions all the time. There is no formula for the human nature. We just know the effects are very real.

 

[Twiceler]

6 is still above average

Haha, what a great comment. You just saved me from gaslighting, thank you.

 

[Spyware]

Your 20s should not be about girls

your hormones all fucked up

you should be working your ass off

If my basic needs for love and affection are unfulfilled, I'd rather kill myself.

 

[Georg]

You guys can produce children in your 70s, 80s.

I stopped reading here. How are you supposed to attract a young woman as an old man?? How often do you see a 50yo man with a 30yo woman irl???

 

[InsatiableEmptiness]

I can't believe people are out here quantifying beauty as if it were like taking stock of an inventory. OP clearly has a lesser opinion of women and we as a community should reject this rhetoric.

Life is hell enough without misogyny blurring the lines.

Here's the truth incels won't admit. You can be beautiful at any age. (Barring serious bodily or facial mutilation and other extreme circumstances). You only deteriorate in appearance when you give up on yourself. This is why depressed people on average are less attractive conventionally. It's because they don't take care of themselves.

Is this insensitive? If you read this and take it personally, the yes. But you should reflect on why you took this personally.

 

[InsatiableEmptiness]

I stopped reading here. How are you supposed to attract a young woman as an old man?? How often do you see a 50yo man with a 30yo woman irl???

Do you think spawning kids will spawn you happiness?

 

[Georg]

Do you think spawning kids will spawn you happiness?

What?

Do you think spawning kids will spawn you happiness?

She was talking about getting kids

 

[lovesickness]

All this once you reach a certain age, then you will have women flocking to you sounds like copium. Besides most people want a normal fulfilling life, where they experience all facets of life at their appropriate age. Also there is no cure for having a busted face unless you swim in cash. I'm a femcel myself, but it's mostly my own fault, but seeing everyone live their happy life's, while you never experienced any kind of affection is hard. If someone told me my 70's are when I will ever experience love and affection I would rather die then wait that long.

 

[Vizzy]

seems like a good portion of people on here are men in their early 20s complaining about no girls.

Remember:
1) Men has a tremendous age advantage over women. You guys can produce children in your 70s, 80s. There's no biological clock ticking for you
2) Men in their 20s, most of them look awkward. When I was in my 20s, I never wanted to date anyone in my age group. They just look awkward. Things would get much better once you turn 30s, and your physical features all grown out, and look more manly
3) Looks don't matter that much for man. Women are emotional creature. We care more about the emotional connection. Men I meet, they would go from a 6 to a 9 when I, inexplicitly, feel an emotional connection, be it him lying to him and saying the right things, or just fill that emotional void that I've been experiencing.
4) Your 20s should not be about girls. I know maybe your hormones all fucked up. But your 20s should be working your ass off, build that business, making that first bucket of money. Your sense of achievement in business, career, and gym, would give you so much more confidence.

To quote Kevin Samuels, god rest his soul, women control access to sex, men control access to marriage. Once u turn into late 20s, early 30s, life would be so much better for you. You have more power in this man/woman dynamics than you know.

Advice should in recovery section or off topic section!

 

[Das Nichts]

If you base your whole life on partner/marriage/family/external things your are bound to play cat and mouse for the rest of your life
because everything can go away, anytime. Life is changing all the time and you should be
able to adapt.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I wonder how much confidence comes into it though. I think confidence is probably especially sought for in a man. (Not arrogance.) I think- feeling that you are ugly tends to make either gender insecure. I think that's a difficult thing to get over.

Plus- you can often detect bitterness at how things are- in both genders. In some posts- there is real resentment and distrust of the opposite sex. If I'm honest- I think I have both elements myself and that is probably a big barier to meeting someone and trusting them.

Looks probably do matter for both sexes. I have my own biases because I'm female- so- I've only experienced life from this point of view. Still- from a personal perspective, I'd say there is a very broad range when it comes to what women find attractive. Perhaps that's the same with men too. Plus- there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule. There are all sorts of 'ugly' people out there with partners.

I expect it takes a lot of effort though- and a lot of resilience- just to try and find the 'right' one- unless fate is kind enough to introduce you. That's not something I could be bothered with! Still- I hope that all the people out there looking for someone find one another.

I suppose to some degree- I've wondered if it really would be all that great to be really attractive. How would you know whether your partner was only with you for your looks? And that they might leave you when they fade? I don't know. There was a particularly beautiful lady at work that I was scheduled with one day (retail.) She just got SO much unsolicited attention and it REALLY didn't seem pleasant. Made me kind of grateful I'm ugly.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I suppose to some degree- I've wondered if it really would be all that great to be really attractive. How would you know whether your partner was only with you for your looks? And that they might leave you when they fade? I don't know. There was a particularly beautiful lady at work that I was scheduled with one day (retail.) She just got SO much unsolicited attention and it REALLY didn't seem pleasant. Made me kind of grateful I'm ugly.

But on the other side of the coin, there's unsolicited attention over being bullied because of bad looks.

Also, being attractive doesn't have to solely be desired to attract a romantic partner. One could find fulfillment in the pride that comes with being attractive.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Unattractive men think they would've done better before the modern age, but that's not true. You would've been paired with your looksmatch, not a model. Your sex life would've been average and hardly better than masturbation. Penis in vagina without intense attraction is mediocre at best.

Emotional support? You can't tell your partner all your problems. She'll think you're weak and pathetic.

 

[Vizzy]

But on the other side of the coin, there's unsolicited attention over being bullied because of bad looks.

Also, being attractive doesn't have to solely be desired to attract a romantic partner. One could find fulfillment in the pride that comes with being attractive.

Childhood bully should be stopped by parents so they are the one to be blamed but as someone become adults and ugly I would say them to concentrate more on their body by working out,Putting on some muscles which will make their face bright and give confidence

For adult men I would say if you don't want to be bullied, make yourself look hard by having some good muscles, I don't know how to explain that it's some kind of inner energy which comes out of you when you take care of yourself no one will mess with you and physical fitness hides your ugliness!

For everyone else I don't know

 

[Forever Sleep]

But on the other side of the coin, there's unsolicited attention over being bullied because of bad looks.

Also, being attractive doesn't have to solely be desired to attract a romantic partner. One could find fulfillment in the pride that comes with being attractive.

Yeah, true. Still- not many people walked up to me at work and told me I was ugly. Not one in nearly a decade actually. In our PC society- it's frowned upon (of course- it happened at school etc.) Yet- this lady got attention on a daily basis- whether she wanted it or not. Complete strangers would just start talking about her looks- has she considered modelling? etc. You could tell it made her uncomfortable.

I take your point. I'm just saying- me personally- as a shy person. As a person who doesn't like drawing attention to themselves- especially from randy guys- I WOULDN'T want to look like that and get all that attention. We're all different though. I do understand why that is appealing to other people. I guess part of it depends on how much you like people. I don't particularly- I'm more or less a recluse- if I can be. I don't particularly want attention of any kind from other people. Obviously I realise that's not normal but I doubt many of us on here are!

 

[SexyIncél]

4) Your 20s should not be about girls. I know maybe your hormones all fucked up. But your 20s should be working your ass off, build that business, making that first bucket of money. Your sense of achievement in business, career, and gym, would give you so much more confidence.

Tricky to implement. Suffering for imaginary social points without a companion... painful grind. Literal (wage) slavery. Low success rate. You're dependent on a social structure called "the economy" -- rigged against most players

Play Hunger Games to get the girl

Complexities:

• When women helpfully offer unsolicited personal perspectives, it's typically low-quality info. Because they're not experts. Do they point to a track record of getting men companions, with evidence? Are they anthropologists, offering ethnographic analysis from their fieldwork as wingmen? No
• Many men actually do undervalue their appearance. Like the anorexic who thinks she's fat
• If lonely men here sound fatalistic, notice we're on a suicide forum. They're not the only one swallowing the black pill. Yet somehow it's ok to hit them with toxic positivity and humiliation
• That study (80% of men competing for 20% of women) seems unconvincing. Because Tinder's like 70-80% men
• Different battlefields have different results. Dating markets tend to be rigged games. And full of mean/superficial women. Thus many men are advised to get in/out fast, and prefer their social circles

The only effective advisor I know so far is Alexander Grace. (Analyzed his biases here. One qualification is the time he spent hacking women's minds as a pickup artist, before he realized how unsatisfying and depressing it was)

He claims it's possible for physically unattractive men to get what they want -- but it's hard. Women will test you mercilessly to determine if your confidence is real, and you have very little room for mistakes. Women who can't visualize this should ask a feminist how hard it is for certain women to pass grueling interviews for high status jobs

Non-expert women and men can give you brilliant insights -- if you treat them like an anthropologist treats informants. For example, yesterday one told me an interesting reason why women dislike men who romanticize them: high expectations on a pedestal are nerve-wracking to live up to

 

[InsatiableEmptiness]

This has me crying lmaoo

Impeccable societal

What?

She was talking about getting kids

OP is male

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Impeccable societal

OP is male

Are you sure? I thought OP was female.

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Of course many women care about looks. Some go for girly men, others prefer more rugged, but there has to be something that draws them in, one way or the other. And how do you suggest young men make a "bucket full of money" exactly? Living expenses are through the roof and most young people are forced to live with their parents until God knows when. Besides, women have their own earning power, they don't need our ugly asses for that. I'll be damned if I'll give even $1 to these OnlyFans hoes though.

In any case, definitely a troll post. I would know, I'm a troll (not really).

 

[Vizzy]

Guys nothing matters looks, attraction, connection , love everything garbage

Best way for a man to bang those baddies is the amount of green paper he have, I have seen a ugly potato guy with many baddies because he is a trust fund baby so nothing matters only the green paper does!

Of course many women care about looks. Some go for girly men, others prefer more rugged, but there has to be something that draws them in, one way or the other. And how do you suggest young men make a "bucket full of money" exactly? Living expenses are through the roof and most young people are forced to live with their parents until God knows when. Besides, women have their own earning power, they don't need our ugly asses for that. I'll be damned if I'll give even $1 to these OnlyFans hoes though.

In any case, definitely a troll post. I would know, I'm a troll (not really).

I hate those simps paying for onlyfans, cancer to the society!

 

[OceanBlue]

Other stuff matters to women more than looks, have you guys seen Mike Tindall? He managed to marry one of the royal family and he's not exactly an oil painting and she could've had absolutely anyone. Women date ugly men ALL the time.

I googled them, imo she's worse looking than him - he's a big rugby player with a broken nose, I don't find him unattractive, he's just very 'normal'.

Is it just me or is this shit really shallow?
<...>
What you wanted to say could have been phrased so differently. You could have said something along the lines of "some women don't care about looks as much as some of you might thing" in the recovery section.

I agree, the op was terrible. Hope no one takes this as advice.
Also, rating looks on a scale needs to go, it's also very individual. Is it really a compliment to say 'you went from 6 to 9' after we spoke, I wouldn't be amused.

 

[ChildrensITV]

OP is full of shit. Well-meaning shit, but full of shit nonetheless. She is right that you should work on your money and looks - but you should be doing that all throughout life anyway. Anyone who says looks don't matter much for men is full of shit. The evidence states that women care about looks possibly even more than men, cuz men are full of testosterone and have lower standards for what they find attractive. Women are the ones who rightswipe 5% of men whereas men rightswipe about 50%. The growth in lonely, incel men is because women's standards have gone up.