Discussion (SN) We need to seriously question the 25g recommendation

[Meditation guide]

So what you're saying is until a scientific basis has been established as to whether or not, the higher lethal doses will work then you would rather take a lower dose instead of justifying taking a number that could be the wrong one and will cause unnecessary pain to people.


True, they would and in many cases they have. This is why some people have deviated from taking Antiemetics since you'll vomit anyway after ingesting such a high amount.

I have to respectfully disagree here, we know that out of any of these amounts that people will either not ctb since there have been cases of people who've taken just over what is the minimum dose and not ctb, there was quite an issue of this year's back when users would take a small amount of sn to give them an idea of what they are in store for. Now, some reacted in a way where the taste was strong and couldn't fathom taking the full amount of 20g-25g while others were encouraged because the symptoms weren't so bad to deal with, these are individuals responses after all.

When it comes the 25g amount, we know that intentional sn ingestion is taken with the intent to ctb and that means leaving as very little chance as possible to survive which is why it has such a high mortality rate contrary to what people believe about sn being easier to fail which isnt an exclusive issue of SN. Not sure to what extent you've seen medical articles discussing the state of individuals found after calling for medical help but their medical status deteriorates quite sharply even after being placed under intensive care with severe cases developing cardiac arrest, these are more than likely to be higher doses that leave a very small window for medical intervention to save anyone. No one wants to leave anything to chance especially when it comes to OD, this is not a gamble but trying to be precise as possible down to the amount ingested in order to ctb.

It may be if we just consider what OP is trying to say. They may be onto something that has been a concern for others when it comes to sn. I mean @DT2007 took 10g to try to take nor anywhere the recommended but still not vomit and even though they did, I see what he was trying to do.

This is true especially if the user vomits almost immediately which has happened either due to the taste itself or some other cause, so when this happens, it becomes rather uncomfortable for anyone to ingest more no matter how much they want to see it through even though some like @Jellyfish42 have been able to do it.

One man took over 100g but was still resuscitated so it's not an exact science. There is much individual variation. Some have died with 10g or less. I just recently read an article about how the body makes some chemical that counteracts SN for some people, not all do this. So that is the reason for the excess dose. The body needs a little more time to produce this reaction that counteracts it. So speed of absorption is very important.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

One man took over 100g but was still resuscitated so it's not an exact science. There is much individual variation.

That is true as well. I'm just curious to see where this goes. I suppose what OP is trying to establish as the amount where most people can ctb without triggering any of the defensive mechanisms.

 

[Justnotme]

By the way: a few months ago, I also tried to drink 25 grams of regular salt in 50 ml of water. I didn't have any pain, I didn't feel sick at all. I had a very slight headache, almost imperceptibly, I will say.
I don't even know what to say about how similar sodium nitrite and ordinary table salt are
( I didn't feel sick or vomit.)

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I mentioned the LDlo 71mg/kg body weight several times in different discussions which is according to Wikipedia (the source where I have this number from) the lowest lethal dose for humans. There have to be many other factors taken into account, not only body weight. "Accidental intoxication" it happens by accident those people do not have the intention to die it's comparable with accidental death by CO when people put their used BBQ into their apartment and die by accident, this won't work if u wanna CTB seriously.

I do get your point, you wanna find the lowest dose that kills someone but I would say people who have heart diseases already may need less SN than someone who is an athlete with a strong heart. So imo it's not that easy as NO2- is a poison but not as toxic as CN- for example where the lethal dose is as low as 250mg for an avg. person.

By the way: a few months ago, I also tried to drink 25 grams of regular salt in 50 ml of water. I didn't have any pain, I didn't feel sick at all. I had a very slight headache, almost imperceptibly, I will say.
I don't even know what to say about how similar sodium nitrite and ordinary table salt are
( I didn't feel sick or vomit.)

25g NaCl isn't necessarily healthy but NaCl is an essential salt we need to be able to keep out bodies functioning there are different mechanisms how a body gets rid of an OD of a salt we need to be able to live than of a poison that imediately starts destroying blood cells.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

I do get your point, you wanna find the lowest dose that kills someone but I would say people who have heart diseases already may need less SN than someone who is an athlete with a strong heart.

Yeah the heart issue is where I fall in and because of how SN or Methomoglobinemia affects the heart to be precise, I may not need a high dose of 25g.

Accidental intoxication" it happens by accident those people do not have the intention to die it's comparable with accidental death by CO when people put their used BBQ into their apartment and die by accident, this won't work if u wanna CTB seriously.

And this is why Intentionally sn to ctb with requires a pretty high dose in order to make the likelihood of medical intervention saving a life very small. That much is clear in this pdf belowwhen comparing Accidental ingestion to intentional ingestion.

the same logic applies to quick and painless you and most people associate with higher doses. Speed might be the only point in favor for higher doses but if vomiting with higher doses is more common then it would be the opposite in regards to pain, I think this is everyones priority.

I think this is a good point to consider as well.

 

[Meditation guide]

That is true as well. I'm just curious to see where this goes. I suppose what OP is trying to establish as the amount where most people can ctb without triggering any of the defensive mechanisms.

There were at least two people as I recall who only took 10g and seemed to have an easy time of it. Sadworld took less than that and seemed very peaceful at the end. I just don't think we can experiment on members like they are lab rats. It's a personal choice ultimately how people go about this.

If I were to do it I would go with what has shown to work best for most people. As for the second glass, a few have managed to drink a second glass after vomiting and were never heard from again.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

There were at least two people as I recall who only took 10g and seemed to have an easy time of it. Sadworld took less than that and seemed very peaceful at the end. I just don't think we can experiment on members like they are lab rats. It's a personal choice ultimately how people go about this.

If I were to do it I would go with what has shown to work best for most people. As for the second glass, a few have managed to drink a second glass after vomiting and were never heard from again.

I'm not agreeing to users being lab rats in order to get an idea what the best dose is, I'm just curious because I want to see where op is coming from and why they are saying what they are saying. It is a personal choice after all.

Rare examples like @Retarded Username did everything right but somehow failed and @アホペンギン vomited each glass of sn they took out but outside of those, it's true though, once a second glass is taken, people don't come back and we can assume they have ctb.

 

[Meditation guide]

Mortality was significantly higher in cases of voluntary intake than in cases of involuntary intake, which was certainly due to the greater quantities of sodium nitrite that were taken in the event of a suicide attempt.

Taken from that excellent medical study you posted @Goku Black

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Mortality was significantly higher in cases of voluntary intake than in cases of involuntary intake, which was certainly due to the greater quantities of sodium nitrite that were taken in the event of a suicide attempt.

Taken from that excellent medical study you posted @Goku Black

Haha, fair enough, you got a point there.

 

[dangero]

There are several cases of accidental poisoning and deaths from eating curated meats alone that had "high" levels of SN in it, always around the absolute minimum of 2g we discuss here or lower.

My parents buy deli meat that has a lot of sodium nitrite. One type of deli meat has so much sn that it makes me feel sick for two whole days after just eating a small piece.

If I mentioned this elsewhere, people might laugh, but it genuinely acts like poison even in small amounts.

People are not aware of what they eat, in Poland in meat they use large amount of sodium nitrite. You can buy sn here everywhere for almost nothing. Anyway, that's good for suicidal people.

Of course, this cannot be translated into a lethal dose. This substance has a nasty effect in minimal doses, but perhaps it takes a minimum of 10 grams to be a lethal poison. I don' know.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

People are not aware of what they eat, in Poland in meat they use large amount of sodium nitrite. You can buy sn here everywhere for almost nothing. Anyway, that's good for suicidal people.

Really? That sounds like a massive problem waiting to happen in terms of what people consume but when you mean it's everywhere in Poland for almost nothing, do you mean in terms of access?

This substance has a nasty effect in minimal doses, but perhaps it takes a minimum of 10 grams to be a lethal poison. I don' know.

Maybe that's the minimum dose of some people but it's 20-25g that's the target to make sure as close to certain mortality is the end result.

 

[dangero]

April 2023 - Sodium nitrite poisoning: A series of 20 fatalities in which post-mortem blood nitrite and nitrate concentrations are reported

The lethal acute dose of sodium nitrite is in the range of 150–250 mg/kg (estimated in rodents) and for nitrate salts is 10 times greater at 1000–4000 mg/kg in rodents [25], although in humans has been estimated as low as 330 mg/kg [26]. Separately, it has been reported that signs of acute intoxication may become apparent between 20 min and 3 h following the ingestion of between 200 mg and 500 mg of sodium nitrite [23].
Whilst the estimated lethal dose of sodium nitrite in adults is reported to range from 330 to 2600 mg [25];
a case has been described in which a patient survived after ingesting 6000 mg of sodium nitrite following aggressive medical intervention [10]. https://sci-hub.se/10.1080/15563650.2017.1303142

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073823000609

 

[Deleted member 65988]

a case has been described in which a patient survived after ingesting 6000 mg of sodium nitrite following aggressive medical intervention [10].

Aggressive medical intervention sounds to me that the condition was very critical and potentially life threatening and that's just with 6g of SN.

 

[Meditation guide]

They can pull people through a suicide attempt with SN about half the time in a hospital. And based on what I read recently about people having brain damage after that which becomes apparent in the months afterwards, they really are not doing anyone a favor by saving them. Someone here just posted a medical article on that.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

They can pull people through a suicide attempt with SN about half the time in a hospital. And based on what I read recently about people having brain damage after that which becomes apparent in the months afterwards, they really are not doing anyone a favor by saving them. Someone here just posted a medical article on that.

Well that's the point of sn ctb, to not survive it under any circumstance to avoid any situation where hypoxic brain damage could occur or any other complications.

 

[Mistiie]

I'm sorry but saying sn failure had no permanent side effects is just wrong. I used to believe it too but several people came forward and articles showing that there can be lingering damage done to the body after a failed sn attempt probably influenced by the time it took for help to arrive.

Absolutely this. Literally overdosing yourself with anything is going to have permanent or long-lasting side effects. If there weren't, then your body wouldn't reject it. It's kind of the whole point of overdosing; cause as much damage to your body in the short-term that it cannot function anymore and stops living. That short-term damage doesn't just get repaired lickety-split.

 

[DreamEnd]

Absolutely this. Literally overdosing yourself with anything is going to have permanent or long-lasting side effects. If there weren't, then your body wouldn't reject it. It's kind of the whole point of overdosing; cause as much damage to your body in the short-term that it cannot function anymore and stops living. That short-term damage doesn't just get repaired lickety-split.

Yeah I agree. Some people recover though without any trouble but we don't know how they feel long term since no studies have been done that way

 

[Kta1994]

25g is Quick

 

[DreamEnd]

Actually I just read an article someone posted here in another thread where studies have been done on this subject. MRI and cat scans of their brains show massive damage.

Wtf?! Can you send link?

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Actually I just read an article someone posted here in another thread where studies have been done on this subject. MRI and cat scans of their brains show massive damage.

Studies have been done on the subject of brain damage from intentional sn ingestion? So what everyone who takes sn will eventually get massive brain damage and if that's the case, they should be dead because massive brain damage especially with way hypoxia affects the brain essentially means brain death. @Meditation guide also sometimes, it would be helpful if you could link the article or study you are talking when your comment specifically references it, saves us the time of having to ask about it.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

You could do a search on this site for "SN brain damage" like I just now did to find the thread with this study posted but I did it for you. It's not easy for me to keep track of all the articles I read but this time I took the time to go back and find this article.

Different results come up that don't always point in the direction of what is being looked for, it doesn't narrow it down either to just search for it as you suggest. Linking the article could've helped from the start if it also saves you time to look for it like you did for me, I do that most of the time whenever I reference an article for anyone to understand what im talking about. You also said "studies" which implied that it directly addressed various cases of what happens after an intentional/suicidal ingestion of SN months or years after hospital which would've been rather interesting to see for a change instead of just one case of a 64- year old man especially in younger people since that's who the majority ,albeit unfortunately, are who have taken sn much more than people at retirement home age. I'm not stating that sustaining damage isn't possible as this is a risk at the end of it but I'd like to know just how common is a rare issue like DPHL is, amongst any of the other complications that can happen in the aftermath months of years after in terms of survival from large doses of SN.

People are alive with massive brain damage sometimes.

Sometimes?, it's much more of rarity with regards to what Hypoxia can do the brain the case of intentional sn ingestion or like cardiac arrest or strangulation, or from systemic derangements that affect the oxygen content of the blood. Nevermind the complications arising from all other organs have been compromised due to the inability to carry oxygen. It's more than likely to lead to death in most cases rather than survival. Quoted directly from the page on Hypoxia on Pubmed " Trials show that 27% of patients with post-hypoxic coma regained consciousness within 28 days, Nearly 9% remained comatose or in a vegetative state, and unfortunately, 64% died."

 

[Deleted member 65988]

I regret going to the trouble of looking it up or even mentioning at all. I will know better next time. I didn't expect a barrage of criticism for my input and effort.

It's OK, I'm not trying to get at you for any of this. There is no barrage of criticism either which to your point, ive been criticized on this forum as well but took it as honest input from others as we all should, im just pointing out that a little bit more context would be better for the sake of understanding what you are talking about especially if it references something we can all learn from when it comes to SN since its probably the most discussed method here. Don't regret it, it's been brought up and that's that, this conversation may have benefited someone else outside of me or you.

 

[sanction]

What are your thoughts on putting SN into capsules, and swallow the capsules instead? Or maybe even use needle and do injection into the arms

 

[Deleted member 65988]

What are your thoughts on putting SN into capsules, and swallow the capsules instead? Or maybe even use needle and do injection into the arms

I think @Funkygibbon do this on the 1st and 2nd attempt. https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/i-almost-died.20817/

 

[sanction]

I think @Funkygibbon do this on the 1st and 2nd attempt. https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/i-almost-died.20817/

Yeah, I'm wondering if swallowing capsules may help lessen the vomitting effect, compared to chugging SN as powdered water. Probably gets digested and processed a bit different. And damn, that person smoking cigarette may not be the best idea as well, since its just adding an extra possibility to trigger unexpected effects of the SN. And should of just smoked inside, instead of smoking outside, and just stay by the bed or something. Of course I don't know his/ her full circumstances, but definitely some mistakes were made

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Yeah, I'm wondering if swallowing capsules may help lessen the vomitting effect, compared to chugging SN as powdered water. Probably gets digested and processed a bit different. And damn, that person smoking cigarette may not be the best idea as well, since its just adding an extra possibility to trigger unexpected effects of the SN. And should of just smoked inside, instead of smoking outside, and just stay by the bed or something. But of course I don't know his/ her full circumstances, but definitely some mistakes were made

Well that's why Funky did it a 2nd time round and it's been a while since so it's more likely they did ctb, also as stated on that thread, FG didnt have any issues with smoking after taking sn, even LetzteAusfahrt had a cig after ingesting sn and there was no problem at all in terms of being detrimental to the process. As you'd expect, taking sn in water solution makes the digestion process much faster compared to pills since they'll take a bit longer to break down and digest considering you'll be packing 20-25g of sn in even the biggest pills at 000 in size, it can hold about 1000mg that's at least 15-20 pills to use in order to get to the recommended sn amount. Now considering this, it may come down to sacrificing the speed of a water based sn solution in order to not vomit or at least, to reduce the possibility of vomiting out a lot of the solution with taking pills but also realize, the process may take longer.

 

[sanction]

Well that's why Funky did it a 2nd time round and it's been a while since so it's more likely they did ctb, also as stated on that thread, FG didnt have any issues with smoking after taking sn, even LetzteAusfahrt had a cig after ingesting sn and there was no problem at all in terms of being detrimental to the process. As you'd expect, taking sn in water solution makes the digestion process much faster compared to pills since they'll take a bit longer to break down and digest considering you'll be packing 20-25g of sn in even the biggest pills at 000 in size, it can hold about 1000mg that's at least 15-20 pills to use in order to get to the recommended sn amount. Now considering this, it may come down to sacrificing the speed of a water based sn solution in order to not vomit or at least, to reduce the possibility of vomiting out a lot of the solution with taking pills but also realize, the process may take longer.

Personally I wouldn't risk smoking cigarette, because something as simple as a small cough due to smoking, which happens randomly at times, could then lead to accidentally triggering the vomitting feeling under that condition. But I understand probably a smoker's last desire, is to be able to enjoy that one last smoke. If anything, I would recommend just do the smoking as part of that 24 to 48 hour regime along with the food and water. There's got to be some sacrifice, to ensure a smoother journey for final exit

As for the capsules, I was reading earlier that the actual deadly amount for SN is around 2 grams. The usual recommended overkill of 25 grams is to make sure there is more than enough, as some type of added insurance

Which leads me to thinking, since 25 grams often does trigger vommiting, maybe can instead do half that amount. Around 12 grams as powdered water. And the remaining can be done in capsules. Because even though people could prepare a 2nd or 3rd glass as backup, there has also been cases of people that survived, where after the 1st glass, they were simply too dizzy to be able to grab that 2nd glass

So there is a chance doing half of 25 grams as powdered water, and the remaining half as capsules, may be a nice balance. So in case the first 12 grams is not enough, but while you're dizzy and can't easily grab those backup glasses and are laying there, those capsules will instead gradually kick-in, and finish the job. May take a bit longer, but probably just an extra 10 to 20 minutes, but if that can increase the overall successful rate, then might be worth it, since we only have 1 shot with CTB

 

[Dot]

Own opinns on th/ amnts

SaSu psses on infrmatn frm PPeh whch = cnsidrd t/ b th/ mst comprhnsve infrmatn abt certn methds - evrythng tht psts on SaSu recmmnd abt SN cme frm tht bk

Th/ Ppeh usd t/ recmmnd 10g & thse amnts wre raisd multpl tmes s/ info = alwys changng

Am nt fmiliar wth th/ bdy natrlly countr-actng SN othr thn thru vomitng - whn SN = absorbd thn th/ chemcl/biolgcl reactns strt happnng & only methlyn blu hs bn recgnisd as an antodte t/ chnge whtevr procss = happnng

If a v smll amnt of SN = absorbd thn tht mght nt b enuf t/ affct a lrge enuf numbr of red-bld clls

Bt membrs hve stll ctb on smll amnts -- thre = an artcle whre sme1 ctb on 1g SN - thre r membrs wh/ testd 1-2g SN & thy ctb

IceTea15 mght hve ctb w/o interventn bt thr xpernce tk mny hrs - tht wld b dstressng fr mst ppl

Frm wht slf hve Cn th/ 10-25g amnts hve bn thru trial & errr - @91Days ctb wth 10-11g & othrs mght fail on tht amnt

= rlly up t/ membrs t/ rsearch info on th/ ste & decde wht rsks thy wn2 tke wth rgard t/ havng 'enuf' vs increasd rsk of vomitng

 

[Deleted member 65988]

= rlly up t/ membrs t/ rsearch info on th/ ste & decde wht rsks thy wn2 tke wth rgard t/ havng 'enuf' vs increasd rsk of vomitng

Well said Dot, it really is up to each member to decide for themselves

 

[losing hope]

I'd previously tried raising this same debate back in May here; https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/is-25gs-of-sn-overkill.118579/ as I also think there needs to be more thought & documentation on the amount of SN people use in their ctb attempts. @depressedlover actually was originally going to go with 25g's. But in part thanks to my aforementioned thread & the fact she was 110lb I think she successfully ctb'ed with 20g's in the end as that was what was recommended in the table she posted in her post #98 here; https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/goodbye-my-watch-has-ended.118396/page-4

Personally I am wondering to follow this table https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/images/2023/03/164976_B4985DF6-C61C-47EA-BD67-5826FC677367.jpeg