Discussion Safe space for incel suicide

[jbear824]

"incel" is stupid as is it's ideology. "Involuntarily celibate" implies that you are being deprived of something you are owed. Which couldn't be further from the truth.

No one owes you sex or a relationship or a even their time of day. Incels can't accept that so they pass themselves off as oppressed. It's lame, at best.

 

[losing hope]

I didn't even know what an incel is so I googled it & the result was; "a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually..."

Dude I've rejected women, long ago. As no woman can match Rachel Riley shaking her ass, when I'm high on weed jacking it all day every day. I am literally trying to OD on that shit, as that is my ideal way to ctb!

 

[CPY]

I would like a space like that too.Even though I would like to have a healthy mind before anything I still identify as an inceI because...well I never had sex.I find the incel forum a bit toxic when it comes to discussion about suicide and mental illnesses.

I can't relate to women's issues since they live privileged lives in "easy mode" even when external issues arise such as mentall ilnesses

It won't happen but it would be nice to have a male only forum

 

[Rhizomorph1]

I didn't even know what an incel is so I googled it & the result was; "a member of an online community of young men who consider themselves unable to attract women sexually..."

Dude I've rejected women, long ago. As no woman can match Rachel Riley shaking her ass, when I'm high on weed jacking it all day every day. I am literally trying to OD on that shit, as that is my ideal way to ctb!

I'm really tired of default modes of learning which assume dictionary definitions without applying sociological imagination nor semantic/cultural mapping of connected ideas.

Dictionary definitions don't account for cultural connections with real-world behaviours, flexible discourses, etc. which may be far more problematic than a dictionary definition can suggest.

Cultural analysis of these loaded terms – which have multiple dimensions not included in dictionary definitions – are required to make a reasonable assessment of these terms.

Moral of the story: don't take dictionary definitions for granted as they can disguise harmful cultures by oversimplifying them.

I would like a space like that too.Even though I would like to have a healthy mind before anything I still identify as an inceI because...well I never had sex.I find the incel forum a bit toxic when it comes to discussion about suicide and mental illnesses.

I can't relate to women's issues since they live privileged lives in "easy mode" even when external issues arise such as mentall ilnesses

It won't happen but it would be nice to have a male only forum

Read above. It's not as simple as the dictionary definition of "involuntary celibate". Make a cultural analysis that includes the culture's representatives.

 

[Adûnâi]

As for the virginity. You only lose that when you have sex. Which I didnt have. But I've personally never heard that you lose it when you just kiss someone. For me and I think most other people there is a huge difference between kissing someone and sleeping with someone.

But sex can be so different overall, how can it even denote a single thing? I would consider myself no longer a male "virgin" if I got my head patted.

defying the teleological logics of this conversation

Learn to bifurcate the boundaries of my words so you don't construct more strawmans.

I don't know what this means, I'm a baka :3

"incel" is stupid as is it's ideology. "Involuntarily celibate" implies that you are being deprived of something you are owed. Which couldn't be further from the truth.

True, a bird is not owed the ability to fly; a bird can be devoured by a snake right in its nest.

Dude I've rejected women, long ago. As no woman can match Rachel Riley shaking her ass

I tip off my head to you, Chad. And know that I do not denigrate the chads' right to die either.

I can't relate to women's issues since they live privileged lives in "easy mode" even when external issues arise such as mentall ilnesses

Tread very carefully here, I wouldn't like anyone to lose his account... Especially because of me.

My idea was that female issues are still issues because their threshold is lower, so while I would gain the meaning of life if I got a head pat, a typical girl would not be able to in similar circumstances. And that's alright. We're all different.

 

[DreamEnd]

I'm really tired of default modes of learning which assume dictionary definitions without applying sociological imagination nor semantic/cultural mapping of connected ideas.

Dictionary definitions don't account for cultural connections with real-world behaviours, flexible discourses, etc. which may be far more problematic than a dictionary definition can suggest.

Cultural analysis of these loaded terms – which have multiple dimensions not included in dictionary definitions – are required to make a reasonable assessment of these terms.

Moral of the story: don't take dictionary definitions for granted as they can disguise harmful cultures by oversimplifying them.

Read above. It's not as simple as the dictionary definition of "involuntary celibate". Make a cultural analysis that includes the culture's representatives.

Just because some incels hate women doesn't mean that all do. A lot of incel spaces actually focus on becoming better partners and self improvement to attract women. The very opposite of female hating culture you are talking about.

 

[Adûnâi]

Just because some incels hate women doesn't mean that all do. A lot of incel spaces actually focus on becoming better partners and self improvement to attract women. The very opposite of female hating culture you are talking about.

Which spaces in particular? The only forum I know of is full-blown immigrant neo-Nazis (yes, they're mostly non-European AND misogynistic, hilarious).

 

[Rhizomorph1]

I don't know what this means, I'm a baka :3

Precisely why I said:

If you can't be either intellectually honest OR self-aware (whichever is at fault for the strawmans that you constructed; defying the teleological logics of this conversation), at least defer to others' better reasoning so you don't harm people.

Teleology is the direction towards ultimate finality/resolution. A conversation has logics that flow towards this. Strawman fallacies by design direct attention away from these logics, preventing resolution.

I would interrogate your identification with incel ideologies as it doesn't seem you've thought it all the way through, teleologically-speaking.

Or you could just defer to people who have much more expertise on this topic (cultural scientists; sociologists)

Another analogy: if you don't speak Japanese, don't criticize the logics of its Grammer. There are people speaking Japanese (or cultural theory) in this case. It is evident that you are not a fluent speaker.

 

[Adûnâi]

I would interrogate your identification with incel ideologies as it doesn't seem you've thought it all the way through, teleologically-speaking.

I've said that I'm not exactly a typical incel, and many incels hate me because I don't have a deformed face but instead simply have zero social experience (not opening my mouth to talk to my peers in my life).

 

[DreamEnd]

Which spaces in particular? The only forum I know of is full-blown immigrant neo-Nazis (yes, they're mostly non-European AND misogynistic, hilarious).

Idk I'm not in those spaces anymore. But when I was there was mostly focus on self development and wealth acquisition. Of course there are misogynistic spaces. But the way the term is used around very loosely. A lot of ugly lonely men are simply labeled incels for being unable to attract women.

Precisely why I said:



Teleology is the direction towards ultimate finality/resolution. A conversation has logics that flow towards this. Strawman fallacies by design direct attention away from these logics, preventing resolution.

I would interrogate your identification with incel ideologies as it doesn't seem you've thought it all the way through, teleologically-speaking.

Or you could just defer to people who have much more expertise on this topic (cultural scientists; sociologists)

Another analogy: if you don't speak Japanese, don't criticize the logics of its Grammer. There are people speaking Japanese (or cultural theory) in this case. It is evident that you are not a fluent speaker.

Sociology, anthropology, cultural studies, gender ideology are mostly left wing indoctrination camps so any information that comes out of them should undergo extra scrutiny

 

[Zebulon]

Idk I'm not in those spaces anymore. But when I was there was mostly focus on self development and wealth acquisition. Of course there are misogynistic spaces. But the way the term is used around very loosely. A lot of ugly lonely men are simply labeled incels for being unable to attract women.

I personally differentiate between two types of virgins. One the one hand you have "incels", which are the misogyn type and than you have the forever alone type. Which are just sad, but not hateful against another gender, just sad and lonely that they never experiance romantic love.
Ofc thats only my definition and I'm not categorizing everybody who calls semselfs incels, a incel in my definition.

But you are right, that even I as a "forever alone" type get called incel if woman find out that I never had a partner or sex. And that comes with all the negative connotacions that word has. So i just lie and say, yeah I had sex along time ago. The stigma against inexpirienced men is definietly there. But I dont blame woman for it or my romantic shortcomings.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

I've said that I'm not exactly a typical incel, and many incels hate me because I don't have a deformed face but instead simply have zero social experience (not opening my mouth to talk to my peers in my life).

You're missing the point. If you go by a dictionary definition many more people would identify as an incel.

They don't because of the cultural connections it has. Not even parallel but truly at the core of the ideology is hatred towards women.

Even if you don't hate women, if hitler, Stalin, and Mao showed up to your Christmas party and you welcomed them with open arms, you couldn't defend your Christmas party just because you never personallh invited them. It's still a Nazi Christmas party, and you are complicit by being at the party celebrating with them.

As I said, I think you need to interrogate the harms of the incel ideology you are identifying with. Hold up the microscope to the boundaries (real and imagined) of this culture to better assess what you are taking part in. Cultural theorists and most of society has recognized and written extensively on the harmful ideals baked into the ideology. Whether or not you personally identify with those ideals explicitly, you are implicitly supporting them through support of incel symbolism and you personal identification with it.

If you identify as an involuntary virgin this would be very different as it is constructed differently socially speaking.

 

[DreamEnd]

You're missing the point. If you go by a dictionary definition many more people would identify as an incel.

They don't because of the cultural connections it has. Not even parallel but truly at the core of the ideology is hatred towards women.

Even if you don't hate women, if hitler, Stalin, and Mao showed up to your Christmas party and you welcomed them with open arms, you couldn't defend your Christmas party just because you never personallh invited them. It's still a Nazi Christmas party, and you are complicit by being at the party celebrating with them.

As I said, I think you need to interrogate the harms of the incel ideology you are identifying with. Hold up the microscope to the boundaries (real and imagined) of this culture to better assess what you are taking part in. Cultural theorists and most of society has recognized and written extensively on the harmful ideals baked into the ideology. Whether or not you personally identify with those ideals explicitly, you are implicitly supporting them through support of incel symbolism and you personal identification with it.

If you identify as an involuntary virgin this would be very different as it is constructed differently socially speaking.

Every ideology has harm in it. Doesnt mean you can be differen nor do you need to defend yourself against those allegiations

 

[Adûnâi]

if hitler, Stalin, and Mao showed up to your Christmas party and you welcomed them with open arms, you couldn't defend your Christmas party just because you never personallh invited them. It's still a Nazi Christmas party

There is only a single Nazi among the three. If you mean "non-American", just say that you hate all Eurasian political ideologies. It's funny considering Westerners pride themselves on diversity - but the moment Usama bin Laden shows up, it's suddenly the enemy of freedom. I'm tolerant of all views - hell, including the American one, as I seem to appreciate the sight of femboys (without being gay, I cannot imagine giving them headpats).

As I said, I think you need to interrogate the harms of the incel ideology you are identifying with.

The harms of invisible people on a forum that sometimes kill themselves, yeah, sure. RiP BataviaCel.

 

[TheSpookyNameGuy]

Chews medium rare steak

This is fun

 

[Rhizomorph1]

There is only a single Nazi among the three.

It was rhetorical. Replace it with whatever dictator or villain you want, western or not. The rhetoric is the same.

Maybe look up the definition of rhetoric?

Again, I've explained this.

Chews medium rare steak

This is fun

Glad we can be entertaining

Enjoy the show and complimentary popcorn

Fun and smiles all around

 

[betternever2havbeen]

See, I genuinely have never had this idea, because girl/woman literally refers to whether the said female had sex... And that's supposed to be sexist as hell? A "woman" is literally "a used girl". Hence why I'm electing to use "female" - to avoid the vivid imagery.

Dude what? You realise there are 60 year old women who have never had sex? And 16 year old girls who have? Is this a language thing or do you genuinely think being a woman depends on whether someone has had sex or not? Do you call yourself a boy because you're an incel?

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Every ideology has harm in it. Doesnt mean you can be differen nor do you need to defend yourself against those allegiations

What is the proximal relationship to those harms?

No true Scotsman fallacy.

Just because some incels hate women doesn't mean that all do. A lot of incel spaces actually focus on becoming better partners and self improvement to attract women. The very opposite of female hating culture you are talking about.

No true Scotsman.

This is getting entertaining haha

I believe in you. You can do it! (Cultural analysis, that is).

When can I start teaching about symbolic interactionalism?

Or cultural relativism versus cultural universalism? (Essentially what we're arguing about).

Il even give you both a candy for explaining these concepts correctly on the exam @Adûnâi @mmikkee1

 

[DreamEnd]

What is the proximal relationship to those harms?

No true Scotsman fallacy.

No true Scotsman.o

Proximal relationship? That is entirely subjective. Some can argue being a radical leftist or a reactionary is way more harmful than being an incel. Of course, that would depend on the definition of inceldom which is most of the time just men who cant get women

 

[Zebulon]

You're missing the point. If you go by a dictionary definition many more people would identify as an incel.

They don't because of the cultural connections it has. Not even parallel but truly at the core of the ideology is hatred towards women.

Even if you don't hate women, if hitler, Stalin, and Mao showed up to your Christmas party and you welcomed them with open arms, you couldn't defend your Christmas party just because you never personallh invited them. It's still a Nazi Christmas party, and you are complicit by being at the party celebrating with them.

As I said, I think you need to interrogate the harms of the incel ideology you are identifying with. Hold up the microscope to the boundaries (real and imagined) of this culture to better assess what you are taking part in. Cultural theorists and most of society has recognized and written extensively on the harmful ideals baked into the ideology. Whether or not you personally identify with those ideals explicitly, you are implicitly supporting them through support of incel symbolism and you personal identification with it.

If you identify as an involuntary virgin this would be very different as it is constructed differently socially speaking.

I agree with your whole point. I also find it very important to diffentiate between the louder group of misogynistic "incels" and the other group of just sexless men.
The Problem I experience as an "involuntary virgin" is that everbody assumes your a bad person or a misogynic dude, because otherwise you would've had a girlfriend.

"My group" should speak up more, to nuanciate the differences. But thats hard since most of them are just very very shy and insecure.

 

[Adûnâi]

Dude what? You realise there are 60 year old women who have never had sex? And 16 year old girls who have? Is this a language thing or do you genuinely think being a woman depends on whether someone has had sex or not? Do you call yourself a boy because you're an incel?

There is a term "old girl" meaning spinster, no? Apparently, the new English language has phased it out, lmao, that's why you're not aware of it.

Spinster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Proximal relationship? That is entirely subjective. Some can argue being a radical leftist or a reactionary is way more harmful than being an incel. Of course, that would depend on the definition of inceldom which is most of the time just men who cant get women

This "radical leftism" of your imagination is the logical conclusion of the Western civilisation. So incels who are indeed closer to Asian paganism than to Christianity/liberalism would indeed pose more threat to the order... at least, theoretically, if they existed IRL, and not just online.

 

[DreamEnd]

There is a term "old girl" meaning spinster, no? Apparently, the new English language has phased it out, lmao, that's why you're not aware of it.

Spinster - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This "radical leftism" of your imagination is the logical conclusion of the Western civilisation. So incels who are indeed closer to Asian paganism than to Christianity/liberalism would indeed pose more threat to the order... at least, theoretically, if they existed IRL, and not just online.

it is absolutely not the logical conclusion of the western civilization. It is a logical conclusion of propaganda and indocrination, same with reactionaries

 

[Adûnâi]

it is absolutely not the logical conclusion of the western civilization. It is a logical conclusion of propaganda and indocrination, same with reactionaries

If the entire West shares this "leftist" ideology you're speaking of... Where is the "true" West then? If it doesn't exist, if it is tautological to the current American Empire, excuse me for calling it the logical conclusion of Christianity. The original Christian mobs of Alexandria were the progenitors of modern SJWs.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Proximal relationship? That is entirely subjective. Some can argue being a radical leftist or a reactionary is way more harmful than being an incel. Of course, that would depend on the definition of inceldom which is most of the time just men who cant get women

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9780135/

"Incels report significant issues pertaining to their mental, social, and relational well-being and may seek support from forums that often feature misogynistic and violent content."

Cambridge: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...intervention/6A934637D21AEE4C1D90FAF5FB63D769

"Incels engage in an online community where misogyny and incitements to violence against women are prevalent, often owing to the belief that women are denying them a 'right' to sex. Indeed, inceldom can be considered a form of extremism."

All evidence points to it being proximally central to the ideology. How are empirically measured social facts from discourse analyses remotely subjective?

Have you read the methods sections of these studies?

Some can argue being a radical leftist or a reactionary is way more harmful than being an incel.

Strawman. (Again)

 

[Adûnâi]

Alright, I'm solemnly asking you to stop derailing my thread, I only want love and suicide for everyone if they want it, too, this is not about incels at large, but about mememe and any other suicidal incelles! If I kill myself, I won't bother you xoxo

 

[DreamEnd]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9780135/

"Incels report significant issues pertaining to their mental, social, and relational well-being and may seek support from forums that often feature misogynistic and violent content."

Cambridge: https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...intervention/6A934637D21AEE4C1D90FAF5FB63D769

"Incels engage in an online community where misogyny and incitements to violence against women are prevalent, often owing to the belief that women are denying them a 'right' to sex. Indeed, inceldom can be considered a form of extremism."

All evidence points to it being proximally central to the ideology. How are empirically measured social facts from discourse analyses remotely subjective?

Have you read the methods sections of these studies?

Strawman. (Again)

"Incels report significant issues pertaining to their mental, social, and relational well-being and may seek support from forums that often feature misogynistic and violent content."
May seek does not mean will seek.

"Incels engage in an online community where misogyny and incitements to violence against women are prevalent, often owing to the belief that women are denying them a 'right' to sex. Indeed, inceldom can be considered a form of extremism."

Some incels do that. Just like some radical leftist think they need to start a revolution and overthrow the government. Doesn't mean there aren't incels who don't do that kind of thing. Any cultural study on this is useless since there is already a pre existing bias against them.

Straw man? I told you the relationship to harms is entirely subjective

 

[Rhizomorph1]

I agree with your whole point. I also find it very important to diffentiate between the louder group of misogynistic "incels" and the other group of just sexless men.
The Problem I experience as an "involuntary virgin" is that everbody assumes your a bad person or a misogynic dude, because otherwise you would've had a girlfriend.

"My group" should speak up more, to nuanciate the differences. But thats hard since most of them are just very very shy and insecure.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think finding a different term than incel is important to achieve this representation bifurcated from the harms of inceldom.

There are legitimate emotional problems that involuntary virgin men often face. It simply won't get addressed if it's lumped in with toxicity towards women that we see in inceldom.

I hope you can be one of the pioneers in representing this well-needed gap.

It's a hard place to be in with such little representation currently, but the way though will absolutely be to band together to address toxic masculinity which expects men to be tough, hide their emotions, get all the lady's, etc.

Men should be able to voice their feelings.

Without it resulting in misogyny such as inceldom.

Please keep sharing on this topic. It's an important one and you may represent the change that is needed

Edit: @Adûnâi looping you into this comment to reiterate my point: voice your feelings. Try journalling. Or therapy. Virgin men are represented and the problems they face are valid.

Inceldom is its own separate thing from these problems.

 

[Adûnâi]

If I say that I'm about to feint because my account is gonna be banned because of the shitshow in the comments, will I save my account? I kind of appreciate this community (in whatever limited capacity I can, considering my autism and asociality).

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Alright, I'm solemnly asking you to stop derailing my thread, I only want love and suicide for everyone if they want it, too, this is not about incels at large, but about mememe and any other suicidal incelles! If I kill myself, I won't bother you xoxo

I'm following the teleological logics that you have constructed via your responses. My OP was relevant and every response also relevant to what you have responded with.

Any derailing was thus your own doing. It's your decision as to whether or not to take accountability.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch ;)

I can feel the discomfort through the screen. But remember, "The facts are always friendly" - Carl Rogers.

If they feel unfriendly, what can you change within yourself to make them friendly? Reflection, journalling, and meditation are advised

Write down your feelings towards me. Good or bad, I don't care. It will help you cope with this conversation, or maybe with the dying we're all preparing for here.

With love in living or dying
May you find peace.

 

[Adûnâi]

Any derailing was thus your own doing.

I know gaslighting when I see it :3