My response to VICE regarding an Upcoming Story including this Community

[muffin222]

I see the points you're making here, but I'll raise you that there are many young people who are deeply unhappy perusing the internet. Young people who do not have the best decision skills, based solely on the fact that they are young and everything feels very pressing in the very moment they are experiencing it. People who, for instance, probably aren't fully capable of considering the repercussions. This isn't me saying "young people are dumb" - I was a deeply depressed young person. Who knows how my first attempt would've turned out had information like this been more readily available? The ~15+ years that have passed since have likely been worth having.

While I love this site and deeply appreciate it, I think some of y'all are a little overeager to say it has nothing to do with this website when... it does. Not because anyone's saying "go kill yourself" (though there's some bad actors in the forums - let's not pretend otherwise) but because the accuracy of information contained herein was meant for people who were old or suffering due to illness/significant quality of life issues, not because they're teenagers and depressed* and being both of those things simultaneously sucks.

*substitute diagnosis of choice

ETA: If you were a parent, and your 16yo died with this site up, are you saying you wouldn't do the same thing? That's insanity to me - of course you would. These are grieving family members; they're gonna do whatever they can to keep other families from feeling like they do. Their upset is not misplaced.

For one, the site is intended to be used by people 18+. I know that young people can, do, and will lie about their age in order to create an account on here- or, they may just lurk without registering at all- but that's beyond the control of the site owner and the mods. I realize that the information on here does facilitate suicide in a sense by offering detailed information that people can utilize to die.

But, the initial drive and desire for said people to die did not originate from this site alone. Something has triggered the person to seek out and gather information on methods.

The site alone isn't to blame for that. As for teenagers using the information here to die, that's honestly not likely, although I know it does happen, sadly. Statistics show that most suicides (in the US, at least) are committed by men ages 75+ and ages 45-64. Of course, every death of a young person who could have regained hope with proper help and support is tragic. However, I personally believe that the actual prevalence and likelihood of this occurring because of sites like this is highly overblown by people.

The statistics on completed suicides speak for themselves. Furthermore, in 2018, the year these statistics were gathered, the group with the highest prevalence of reported suicide attempts were people aged 18-25, not teenagers.

Also, why is the information only meant for people who are old and suffering from illness? Are you referring to the Peaceful Pill Handbook and the information reproduced from there? I don't see a reason to gatekeep suicide and limit it to people who are old and ill. That sounds very pro-life to me.

Addressing your final point about would I blame the site itself for the death of my 16 year old, no I wouldn't.

Ideally, if I were a parent, I would try to create an atmosphere of trust, open communication, support, and honesty with my child throughout his/her childhood so that he/she would feel safe enough to come to me with their thoughts and their pain before things escalate to the point of suicide.

That's not insanity- it's simply a different point of view on this delicate issue. Not everyone thinks and perceives the world in the same manner that you do.

 

[_Kaira_]

For one, the site is intended to be used by people 18+. I know that young people can, do, and will lie about their age in order to create an account on here- or, they may just lurk without registering at all- but that's beyond the control of the site owner and the mods. I realize that the information on here does facilitate suicide in a sense by offering detailed information that people can utilize to die.

But, the initial drive and desire for said people to die did not originate from this site alone. Something has triggered the person to seek out and gather information on methods.

The site alone isn't to blame for that. As for teenagers using the information here to die, that's honestly not likely, although I know it does happen, sadly. Statistics show that most suicides (in the US, at least) are committed by men ages 75+ and ages 45-64. Of course, every death of a young person who could have regained hope with proper help and support is tragic. However, I personally believe that the actual prevalence and likelihood of this is occurring because of sites like this is highly overblown by people.

The statistics on completed suicides speak for themselves. Furthermore, in 2018, the year these statistics were gathered, the group with the highest prevalence of reported suicide attempts were people aged 18-25, not teenagers.

Also, why is the information only meant for people who are old and suffering from illness? Are you referring to the Peaceful Pill Handbook and the information reproduced from there? I don't see a reason to gatekeep suicide and limit it to people who are old and ill. That sounds very pro-life to me.

Addressing your final point about would I blame the site itself for the death of my 16 year old, no I wouldn't.

Ideally, if I were a parent, I would try to create an atmosphere of trust, open communication, support, and honesty with my child throughout his/her childhood so that he/she would feel safe enough to come to me with their thoughts and their pain before things escalate to the point of suicide.

That's not insanity- it's simply a different point of view on this delicate issue. Not everyone thinks and perceives the world in the same manner that you do.

I still remember sophomore aged me. Feeling so hopeless and not knowing what the hell was wrong with me. I remember frequently googling "how to kill yourself?" or "I want to die." etc. Nothing but hotlines, that rarely even had people answering them anyway unless they were bots. I used to think full suspension, toaster in the bath, and slashing open wrists were the only real ways to kill yourself. I was terrified by the thought. But you know what? I kept telling myself to keep going to see if things would get better. "I don't want to live to 18" "I dont want to live to 20" "I dont want to live till 21". Much less think about living to old age. Lol.

I could never tell my parents about my feelings. They don't believe in depression/anxiety, as they view it just as excuses for people not to participate in society. They would only doubt me, and say things that would make me feel worse about myself. They were never the right people to go to, to begin with, as they had an extremely negative impact on my life anyway.

Those earlier years, I started to accept one day I was going to have to find the courage to make myself bleed out. I most likely would have eventually, especially if I had not found SS. Being more aware of less gruesome ways keeps me alive. I will keep going till I can afford those options. I have my doubts, but it does buy time for me to potentially find a reason to live. Is this site still so horrible? I personally think not, I know for sure I'm not the only person who has held off CTB with one of the reasons being this website.

Yah hear that people @fixthe26? A young person found a reason NOT to die (just yet) because of a suicide forum. Shocking.

 

[raindrops]

is there a way to hide posts on the home page so no one can read it, until you join as a member?

ive also tried to join forums for music i like, but because the music is banned in most countries you have to answer questions before you join then get verified, this would be alot of work for mods ofcourse, and yes they ban music too, this world is fucked!

edit: hmm, yeah thinking of it you cant stop these sly bastards, i hate those who try to be the hero. i just hope this never gets taken down, what a disaster that would be to those who really do find solace here and have no one else to turn too.

if it gets closed down we could all come together like Heavens Gate Cult, wear nikes, drink the SN and praise Marquis our SS lord...i have bad humour, sorry.

 

[Niftypoint124]

For one, the site is intended to be used by people 18+. I know that young people can, do, and will lie about their age in order to create an account on here- or, they may just lurk without registering at all- but that's beyond the control of the site owner and the mods. I realize that the information on here does facilitate suicide in a sense by offering detailed information that people can utilize to die.

But, the initial drive and desire for said people to die did not originate from this site alone. Something has triggered the person to seek out and gather information on methods.

The site alone isn't to blame for that. As for teenagers using the information here to die, that's honestly not likely, although I know it does happen, sadly. Statistics show that most suicides (in the US, at least) are committed by men ages 75+ and ages 45-64. Of course, every death of a young person who could have regained hope with proper help and support is tragic. However, I personally believe that the actual prevalence and likelihood of this occurring because of sites like this is highly overblown by people.

The statistics on completed suicides speak for themselves. Furthermore, in 2018, the year these statistics were gathered, the group with the highest prevalence of reported suicide attempts were people aged 18-25, not teenagers.

Also, why is the information only meant for people who are old and suffering from illness? Are you referring to the Peaceful Pill Handbook and the information reproduced from there? I don't see a reason to gatekeep suicide and limit it to people who are old and ill. That sounds very pro-life to me.

Addressing your final point about would I blame the site itself for the death of my 16 year old, no I wouldn't.

Ideally, if I were a parent, I would try to create an atmosphere of trust, open communication, support, and honesty with my child throughout his/her childhood so that he/she would feel safe enough to come to me with their thoughts and their pain before things escalate to the point of suicide.

That's not insanity- it's simply a different point of view on this delicate issue. Not everyone thinks and perceives the world in the same manner that you do.

The hard part about walking in another person's shoes is it requires you to see a situation from their point of view, not your own. Guess you're not to a place in your life where you're capable of that, but I don't hold it against you.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Quick reminder because some people reached out to have posts and threads deleted and their account banned due to the publicity aimed at us. There is no reason to be scared. These things happened to us back in 2019 and we survived it. This here isn't any different. It will happen again and we will survive that too. As long as the website exists we will be the target of such attacks and smears. It's normal because we break a social taboo with the existence of this forum. Don't let this unsettle you or your activity in this place in any way. As long as you use some common sense while navigating the forum you will be fine.

 

[muffin222]

The hard part about walking in another person's shoes is it requires you to see a situation from their point of view, not your own. Guess you're not to a place in your life where you're capable of that, but I don't hold it against you.

This doesn't even make sense, and it completely ignores the main point of my entire post that I injected actual research and statistics into. Not to mention you're clearly projecting onto me your own inability to see things from a viewpoint beyond your own.

Not only can you not see the situation from another person's point of view, but you can't even clearly recognize or acknowledge that trait within yourself- you have to project it outwards onto me. Yikes. This is an embarrassing response on your part, tbh.

My mistake here was falling for the bait and believing that you wanted to hear an actual, constructive answer to your questions and a viewpoint outside of your own. I see now that you just wanted me to parrot back to you what you think is right and true. I'm not that kind of person, though, sorry.

 

[262653]

These are grieving family members; they're gonna do whatever they can to keep other families from feeling like they do. Their upset is not misplaced.

I'm fine with them doing what they want as long as they are not trying to hurt me or my interests. I'm not going to welcome grieving family members with the open hands if they are putting effort into taking down this website.

Btw, are/were you a parent? I'm curious because there is an (obvious?) trend.
Young suicidal people and older suicidal people, who think they would be better off dying young, sympathize more with suicidal youngsters.
Parents of suicidal youngsters and older suicidal people, who think they are better off not dying in their youth, sympathize more with parents of suicidal youngsters.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

If you were a parent, and your 16yo died with this site up, are you saying you wouldn't do the same thing? That's insanity to me - of course you would. These are grieving family members; they're gonna do whatever they can to keep other families from feeling like they do. Their upset is not misplaced.

I just said this on the twitter thread and it's relevant to what you've said here:

It's not like they have a reputation for fighting clean and fair. I think they use the parents of people who have suicided as a shield for really bad behavior, because only a monster would go after a grieving parent, right? These folks are aggressive, they outright lie, they fearmonger, they manipulate facts to suit a false narrative -- those aren't the actions of honorably grieving people, they're calculated actions of bullies and abusers. They're playing dirty politics, heavy on the politics.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

 

[omoidarui]

I see the points you're making here, but I'll raise you that there are many young people who are deeply unhappy perusing the internet. Young people who do not have the best decision skills, based solely on the fact that they are young and everything feels very pressing in the very moment they are experiencing it.

Define best decision skills tho

Many members suffer with depression or another mental health condition that impedes them from being in the arguably "best"/"ideal" position (assuming there is one which is kind've laughable that being of sound mind is a prerequisite for committing suicide, which connotes you are internally broken to an indefinite degree anyway).

Restricting access to end-of-life info for minors is one worm in a very large can that begs the question why if you gatekeep for one party, why not the rest of the aforementioned "incapable" groups, including adults who could just be experiencing a passing cloud - and are incapacitated from the "best" decision for that reason. No'one here knows for certainty if they'll still be experiencing suicidal thoughts in ten years, because we're ALWAYS developing personally and mentally throughout our lives and not just once we reach eighteen, so you may as well question the forum's existence altogether on the basis that you believe the potential for future improvement undermines present suffering.

I don't think minors should be allowed to register, but also don't believe we should restrict the Resources section as if to decide who qualifies for the Right to Die (or more accurately, who gets to die peacefully with dignity, as it can't be understated that this forum isn't inherently the cause of most suicidal ideation and people would just ctb in other more violent ways).

ETA: If you were a parent, and your 16yo died with this site up, are you saying you wouldn't do the same thing? That's insanity to me - of course you would. These are grieving family members; they're gonna do whatever they can to keep other families from feeling like they do. Their upset is not misplaced.

I sympathise with the grieving parents heavily and could argue it's that I can only imagine the magnitude of their emotions that I don't consider them to be in the "best" position to think logically or impartially - let alone politically (on a matter that is so central to their pain at that). Overall, without repeating what's been said, I'm more predisposed to be impartial and pro-choice than be pro-life just to appease others and give them false hope for a cause to dictate the life choices of internet strangers, unfortunately

 

[AnotherBrick]

Could someone help me understand why normalizing suicidal thoughts is a bad thing? I'm sure there's an argument for it somewhere, but one of the reasons I love SS is because I don't feel sick or insane or like a monster for having these thoughts. Having a space with people who truly understand is a significant comfort.

When I tried talking to my old psychiatrist about self harm and ideation, he simply refused to respond or acknowledge it. When even your mental health professional refuses to listen and makes you feel ashamed and ignored, of course you're going to come here.

I'm not a freak on SS. I can open up about my deepest cuts and darkest thoughts and no one will bat an eye. I love it.

 

[M]

These are grieving family members; they're gonna do whatever they can to keep other families from feeling like they do. Their upset is not misplaced.

Their anger may not be misplaced, but their efforts to take down our forum is.

 

[Dead beat dad]

This is not the first and definitely won't be the last time this happens.
If you are impacted by a suicide it is an awful place to be, no doubt about it.
People are angry and they want someone or something to blame, that is human nature and I'd never be angry with anyone for being human, we all are.
I get the impression the critics of this site and others like it are quick to rush to judgement and look at it like a balance sheet of lives lost to lives saved.
The article says that those who survive attempts usually go on to recover and sites like this promote more 'lethal' methods , but what about those who never attempted because they had a judgement free outlet for their pain and went on to find recovery.
Those same people who would never open up outside the forums at any stage in their journey for the fears of the stigma and all other associated repercussions of talking about suicide.
I am so surprised this place is so misunderstood, but this is the nature of the beast I guess, walk a mile in our shoes and understand our definition of hope and peace may be different to yours, but we are entitled to that feeling.
As always for all, love and respect brothers and sisters.
DBD

 

[Niftypoint124]

Their anger may not be misplaced, but their efforts to take down our forum is.

Fully agree with you there!

 

[Ironweed]

Here it is: https://www.vice.com/amp/en/article...s-the-site-to-blame?__twitter_impression=true


fixthe26 named the site on Twitter:

We can expect an influx soon.

Suicide Solution. Somebody's been listening to too much Ozzy Osbourne was my first thought.



Don't they remember the big suicide controversy in the 1980s was over Judas Priest, not Ozzy Osbourne?

edit: I apologize if I'm coming across as flippant, but this article was such atrocious garbage I'm finding it very difficult to take it seriously.

 

[Ironweed]

From the Vice artice:

Andrews said that sites like Suicide Solution aren't as open and free as they might like to portray themselves as being. For example, people who try to discourage people from killing themselves, questioning their motives, can be accused of being "pro-life."

The staff of Suicide Forum, another online suicide discussion community, wrote in a post that they understand the desire to read about methods. "It is common to become fixated on dying and ways to die as that is the only thing we are sure will make it all stop. Most of the members of this site found us by researching suicidal thoughts and suicide methods."

Who describes Suicide Forum as being "pro-life?" None other than the site itself. Meaning the implied insult in the description is nonsense.

Suicide Forum is a pro-life peer support forum. This means we are a community built on the giving and receiving of support, helping each other and giving each other a space to talk about things we may not be able to talk about in 'real life' or may not feel that other people can understand. In short, we are people who understand what it is like to want to die, supporting each other to find a way to live

FYI: I did the red/bold thing for emphasis, it was not in the original. By some miracle I was never banned from the site, but I found the discussion too restrictive and so moved on. Was active there for a while a few years ago. I'm not sure I should link to that site, but if I can I'll be more than happy to, if anyone wants to verify the quote.

 

[hoping to lose hope]

Articles fake and gay all about appealing to emotion.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

People will write think-pieces like this jerking themselves off to other peoples suffering, just bathing in the warm sugary ichor of the serotonin produced in the bulbous brains of these egotistical egg-headed buffoons

This sounds like it belongs in Ginsberg's Howl.

 

[Deleted member 14386]

Anyone think about why they post these articles. Clicks, adverts etc. They'll pull at the heartstrings of anyone reading that "we have to do something about this/shut the site down".

Doing something about the rise in ctb is fair, but (as another member said; What would you do if your kid ctb via info on this site? (paraphrasing), doing something about the rise of cbts and blaming the site are like apples and oranges.

The only thing that will happen by taking down ss is another site will pop up, maybe on the darknet, making it harder for those in need and also easier for people in a dark period to end up in the wrong place, scammed or find dnms.
smh

Very well written by the way marquis

 

[Niftypoint124]

Articles fake and gay all about appealing to emotion.

Can we leave "gay" as an acceptable insult in the 90's, though?

 

[Quinlor]

I think the vice article, can I say, was "realistic" because we are in general excluded and misunderstood by the society.

 

[decafcoffee]

hey people who think im an angel who needs to continue blessing this Earth: suck my fat, juicy, meaty cock :)

 

[FoolishDog]

If it wasn't for Vice I never would have found this site. They're just looking for traffic to their own site.

 

[BlackCatTalk]

It seems to me a correct answer, I do not think that all the scientists agree with them because if there was no PPH, not some other articles of scientific publication, I also do not think that all the doctors agree because euthanasia would not exist then, I do not think In generalizing the way these obviously hurt and personally motivated people do, they only feel vulnerable for the moment they're going through but this boils down to one word, "I", what I mean is that they don't think about how the person who decided ctb felt, they didn't know or maybe they didn't care what this person who ctb we're going through because they simply are not able to measure beyond what they want and feel, it is not reproach, it is human behavior normal, but then why if they did not care before what that "beloved" person felt or lived at that moment, why now? where were they at the time to be able to make a change? click and close the site tab and listen to the person? It is neither fair nor remotely helpful to publish something like that, it is just fooling oneself and wanting to continue covering a side that simply makes us uncomfortable to see, there are people who simply want to leave in peace, damn ... What's wrong with that? Why make it harder? Why not instead of wanting to close a site that is a window of relief for many, use it to help? Sometimes it is enough just to listen to someone so that they can feel a little liberated.

 

[Borghesia]

This article has left me with an incredibly cynical grin on my face. It's all there, really. They are just too blind to see. There's paragraphs over paragraphs on the miserable lives these poor souls were living, the truckloads of meds they were taking until they couldn't sleep, the endless bullshit counseling. To no improvement whatsoever. And the recurring notion of "if he/she had not known how to, she wouldn't have". Man, what insightful commentary that is. Ever care to think that sometimes keeping someone alive is more cruel than letting them die? Has that ever struck your ol' thinker? I didn't think so. Which makes you BIASED. See how leniently we put our beloved pets "to sleep" when they can go on no longer. Worse than biased, a HYPOCRITE incapable of REASONING.

Someone is responsible for this.

Yes, yes there is. But it's not Marquis or anyone running and posting on this forum. But looking into the mirror hurts tremendously.

There's lots of little rhetoric tricks in this piece of shit. I've seen people comment how "this article wasn't as bad as I had feared". NO. It's exactly as bad and worse. Because it suggests a bipartisan approach when it absolutely, rigorously does NOT. Do not FALL for this. Towards the end, there's a bombardment of studies to make it all seem very scientific-y when it really is not (also, the issue of suicide is a philosophical one and not at all related to "science"). They even admit as much, AFTER THE FACT. That's dishonest journalism and they know exactly what they're doing. More reputable news sources do exactly the same. Imagine reading a scientific paper and on the very last page they admit it was all made-up and fantasy, when nothing beforehand suggested otherwise. No significant findings, no correlation and least of all, no causation. But, at this point, the information will already have taken hold in your brain. There's actual science on that, it's how bullshit peddlers everywhere operate.

As angry as we can be about these websites, we're holding these websites so much more accountable than the public health system.

...AND OURSELVES. Deflection, again. They just can't say it.

Again, do not be fooled. This is the enemy. There's no research going into pro-choice, only pro-life. It is biased, there is one desirable outcome. It is not bipartisan.

While some empathy from some of the interviewees shines through occasionally, there can be no question about the world we live in. There is active legislation seeking to ban this forum and others like it. Seeking to legally punish those that operate and partake in them (if that isn't already the case). Attempting suicide will get you involuntarily put into a ward in most places in the world. And all this garbage about walking the line between free information and censorship is ALREADY censorship in and of itself. But it's "good" censorship if only for the "right" reasons. Again, beware the rhetoric.

Do not let them define "encouragement", they will shift the goalposts until it fits their narrative. I for one see very little encouragement in this forum. But then again I'm not a hypocrite.

 

[Leaving-Soon]

I must admit I wasn't able to finish reading that article - so biased and full of crap. Wait… almost like myself :-)
But still, that article is a garbage.

 

[mycabbages]

I hope those parents find peace soon. They are hurting and are looking for something/someone to blame it on.

 

[SHThrowAway213]

Well, this sure isn't going to end in disaster for us is it?
Can't wait to see what the general reaction is. /s
So Vice has actually done an article, but I'm not sure if it is about us?
It says it is on the deepwep and is called the name of the website, and this article is actually from 5 years ago anyway.

The Deep Web Suicide Site

A place where anyone can discuss their darkest thoughts, and get advice on how to do it.

www.vice.com

 

[RainAndSadness]

Well, this sure isn't going to end in disaster for us is it?
Can't wait to see what the general reaction is. /s
So Vice has actually done an article, but I'm not sure if it is about us?
It says it is on the deepwep and is called the name of the website, and this article is actually from 5 years ago anyway.

The Deep Web Suicide Site

A place where anyone can discuss their darkest thoughts, and get advice on how to do it.

www.vice.com

This article is referring to a different forum run by different people. It wasn't very popular and had a very small member base and when Vice reported about that forum, it attracted a shitload of trolls, which resulted in its shutdown. That's understandable. I'm glad this didn't happen to SS, this would be very annoying but we have a solid team that's taking care of those that seek to troll us, so I'm not all that worried.

 

[mycabbages]

Well, this sure isn't going to end in disaster for us is it?
Can't wait to see what the general reaction is. /s
So Vice has actually done an article, but I'm not sure if it is about us?
It says it is on the deepwep and is called the name of the website, and this article is actually from 5 years ago anyway.

The Deep Web Suicide Site

A place where anyone can discuss their darkest thoughts, and get advice on how to do it.

www.vice.com

I'm not sure if there is a reason why the article was not linked directly, but you can find the article in question by searching "vice suicide solution".