If you're not vegan, what prevents you from being one?

[ijustwishtodie]

hi,

I don't think people have a moral obligation to kill themselves. Even if a person ending their life meant that fewer resources were taken up (debatable I think, since I think suicide actually costs the economy, and by living you may provide more resources, and also ending your life may lead to a lot of pain for others), I don't see why they have to sacrifice their whole life for this - they're not any less worthy than those they are making the sacrifice for.
Vegans aren't expecting people to sacrifice their lives for animals; they are asking that people don't sacrifice the animals' lives and allow them to suffer for the sake of sensory pleasure.

But the point that to reduce suffering entirely would mean ending all life on Earth? Honestly, I have had this thought a lot, that it would be better if no one existed, and there was no pain for anyone.

I personally have to agree with the meat eater in this case since I think that a meat eater who lives for 20 years and then kills themselves is causing less damage than a vegan who has lived for 50 years. The whole point about veganism is about suffering reduction and being dead reduces both your suffering and the suffering done upon others.

Well, yes, that's the logically extreme conclusion that we arrive to with regards to suffering. For there to be no suffering, there has to be no life. If there is life, there will always be suffering. It definitely would be better if earth was like mars and no life existed as the would be no suffering at all

 

[wildflowers1996]

I personally have to agree with the meat eater in this case since I think that a meat eater who lives for 20 years and then kills themselves is causing less damage than a vegan who has lived for 50 years. The whole point about veganism is about suffering reduction and being dead reduces both your suffering and the suffering done upon others.

Well, yes, that's the logically extreme conclusion that we arrive to with regards to suffering. For there to be no suffering, there has to be no life. If there is life, there will always be suffering. It definitely would be better if earth was like mars and no life existed as the would be no suffering at all

I'm not sure the meat eater is causing less damage though? There's many other factors to consider -a person's presence on Earth may actually *reduce* suffering for others depending on what they do. And by ending their life, that is likely to cause suffering for others

 

[obligatoryshackles]

I think most arguments I see about not becoming vegan are cope and rationalization by people who can't really be bothered to be vegan even though it obviously feels morally wrong on closer examination. The fact is that it just doesn't really matter to the monkey brain inside us and it's more convenient not to be vegan in most of the world. Same reasons why people fail to boycott stuff like Homophobic Chicken ChikFilA or literal death squad owner Coca Cola. Heck, even the genocide sponsor Starbucks boycott basically completely failed. Alcohol consumption is a whole other beast too, since we literally all know it directly harms us. It just takes a lot of conscious effort and real organizational power to make that kind of behavioral change on a large scale. Our brains aren't programmed to care that much or put that much effort into things like that without a major internal paradigm shift or enormous social pressure.

So in that sense, it's good to advocate for it if you truly care about it. People won't change without stimulus, after all. But I think you need a much more compelling argument than "animals are hurt and killed" to really get people to so drastically change the way they live, including me.


But here's my cope and pseudo intellectual rant anyway: I just don't think I can genuinely say that I care enough about animal suffering. You could force me to have to personally slaughter every animal I eat from now on and I would still eat meat, though less since it'd be a pain in the ass.

Like, I just straight up don't think animal suffering matters. The experience of suffering is, fundamentally, just a mechanism that tells a creature to get away from the situation it's currently in somehow. It's just a complex survival mechanism (there's some commentary here about how this also applies to humans, but that's too much of a tangent and I don't want really deal with that unless it seems important to address to someone reading this). That this behavior in animals activates our empathy when we see it is just a byproduct of our ability to empathize with each other for social cohesion. So I see no moral obligation to care about animal suffering.

Fundamentally, I think it's a silly notion that we should care about animal suffering. I mean heck, we barely care about human suffering. Moral veganism just screams virtue signaling to me. Someone deliberately being cruel to animals for no reason is obviously still a good indicator that they're probably not a very empathetic person and likely to do bad things to people too. Doesn't mean the suffering of that animal really matters on its own. And of course I still care about the well being of my pets or any animals I'm emotionally attached to. Doesn't mean I believe they should have rights.


Environmental veganism is another matter, I suppose. It's true that meat production in most developed countries is essentially an incredibly wasteful luxury industry. We might be omnivores, but we don't fundamentally need to eat meat to survive or thrive like cats or dogs (looking at you, vegans who kill their animal trying to force an unnatural diet on them). And it's indisputable that every pound of meat is drastically more costly to produce than every pound of plant matter. It's a different story if the meat is raised from pastoral grazing, converting unused land into food, but that's not what industrial scale cattle raising does. And it's not like we can't make good food without animal products,

But the fact is, environmental responsibility and sustainability wouldn't require a complete abandonment of meat, milk, and eggs to begin with. I agree that the meat industry should be a lot more ethical, but that's a far cry from wanting to stop all animal product consumption. And if it's the environment that concerns me, I can't say it's very compelling to my psyche, even though it matters to me intellectually. I mean, I don't particularly mind my personal water, electricity, or gas consumption either, so why would I bother with my animal product consumption, which has similarly miniscule impact?

Basically, why would I bother making my own life significantly worse to make no real impact while massive corporations delete entire lakes and forests for profit? Give me a dozen, a hundred, or any arbitrarily large number of people that I can realistically influence, make it my job to convince them to be more mindful of their consumption, and I'll earnestly do my best. Point me to a well organized and actually impactful protest and I'll happily go on a march or at least donate money. If you give me the means I will gladly go and personally strangle every CEO in the meat industry to death until drastic reforms are made. But I'm not gonna half heartedly boycott animal products just to hand the money I was going to give to the meat industry to the profiteering from vegans industry instead.

 

[Jack_Nimble]

While it's challenging for OP to understand why others wouldn't be vegan it's equally challenging for most to understand why would one want to be vegan? For two big reasons. For one, animals eating animals is nature. Two, for health. There's nutrients we get from meat we just don't get from plant sources. Many of which impact mental health. Such as creatine and omega 3's in the form of EPA and DHA.

 

[BojackHorseman]

Vegetarian, but not vegan. Only vegetarian the past couple years due to cost and availability. Not vegan, again due to cost and availability. Also because as a farm kid I know that milk and cheese and eggs and wool can be humanely raised. I know that just because it CAN be done humanely, doesn't mean it always is though. I raise chickens myself for eggs, who free range happily in my yard, just so I know my eggs come from humanely raised and happy hens.
By all means, if you can reccomend cheap and simple vegab meals that can be bought at Walmart I would be thrilled to know. Not recipes though, I'm not a good cook, nor do I have the time or money for fresh ingredients. I'm talking about suggestions like Nongshim Veggie Ramen. Things I can quickly throw in the microwave.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

At this point, nothing is preventing me from being vegan. I did quit for a while, this is true, but I am one again. I can never fix the past unfortunately.

 

[Higurashi415]

Health, and I probably don't care enough about the rest.

 

[[NoName]]

not intending this to come across in a critical way, I know it's hard to convey tone over text. But I am a vegan and I find it hard to understand why others aren't. I know not everyone can eat 100% plant based but for those who can, and can avoid animal products, I'm curious as to why they don't

Just saw this. I'm vegan too, nice to see another.

 

[Namelesa]

I wanted to try to become vegan as I view animals as equals and so don't want them to suffer either and so I don't want to support their suffering by buying and consuming animal products but I am sorry but I can't live without diary products as thats what I most consume. I especially can't live without milk as thats the liquid I drink nearly all the time and have done this since a child and is an autistic comfort for me. I have tired to drink vegen milks and vegan alternatives to other things but they all taste bad in my opinion. I have easily been able to cut most meats out of my diet as I don't care for meat that much in the first place and so found the meals that had meat in them to taste fine without it. I do occasionally eat fish still as my parents make my food but I imagine I could become a full vegetarian if I asked my them enough for me to not have it but they might be worried about physical health stuff as they have been slightly worried about that when I cut other meats out of my diet. I do feel awful I can't become a vegan, I am sorry.

 

[music]

i don't really understand the replies about them tasting too nice to quit.

Spoiler: unpleasant analogy

i heard an argument against that which is about whether somebody should beat an animal because they likes the way its screams sound. that sounds insane upon first hearing it but when considering that you can, in a fairly developed country, get all you need from food via other means it's really the same as taste. momentary sensory pleasure. being for one and against the other is contradictory and hypocritical and that's what's shattered that reason for me

I do feel awful I can't become a vegan, I am sorry.

taking any step is good, don't feel so bad about that. i still consume milk in various ways because i live with family and can't contribute financially to groceries so i'm not in a position to request alternatives just for me. i'm not directly eating animals anymore though and that feels nice. as soon as i have more financial independence i'll drop the rest too

 

[isthisit?]

a healthy diet consists of meat.

 

[missedmybus]

I enjoy the taste of meat. Just like other carnivores and omnivores.

If we were to let all the cows and chickens out into the wild.

How long would they last against natural predator?

Is the solution to eternally keep them imprisoned?

Maybe prevent them from breeding? It wouldn't hurt them. But then animal goes extinct.

I do agree it's pretty disgusting how meat industry is run now. I think there should be changes.

But this is true of every industry. Excesses, being profit driven.

Every part of our current Western culture. Excesses and wanting to get as much as possible (money, things, lovers)..

Always more! more! more!

I think there needs to be an major mindshjft in people's minds. I don't know how this would happen though.

For food I think children have to be told at an early age, how precious it is, how necessary for survival. Tell them to be mindful. Show them different diets.

No pushing any specific diets. But just teaching them.

Also, something which disturbed me over the years is:

A lot of young (even adult) people who grew up in cities have never even seen cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys and so on in real life.

Anecdote:
I had a relationship with a woman that grew up in Rome and London and then lived in Amsterdam. Always cities and concrete.
When we were on holiday, in the morning, a rooster crowed. Such a typical things I (and other people from the countryside) associate with mornings.
She goes "Awwwe listen to the cure donkey!!!"
If was so absurd I broke down in tears laughing.
Another friend of mine never saw a cow until he was 21.

I think a sizeable portion of people don't even know that meat comes from living creatures. Where anything comes from.

Reduce food waste. Lower demand for meat. Less demand means less incentive to grow them for profit. Only people with love of animals and soil would be attracted to these jobs.

But all this is true of every industry. Excesses, and being purely profit driven.

Every part of our current Western culture. Excesses, disconnection from real world and wanting to get as much as possible (money, things, lovers)..

We need to teach children that there is enough for everybody.
That we live in an age of abundance, rather than scarcity.

Other examples:
Most consumer goods like clothing, electronics.
People don't understand what these are made of. The resources that pollute the environment, the suffering caused by semi slave labour.

Now, this one is for you. You only eat vegetables. Are any of them imported? Where do you think that plane came from? The fuel? Dl you think anywhere in the production/supply lane, you might be causing human suffering?
We need a complete shift in our mindset.

I think one solution would be:

In our education systems:
In first few years have every child try to come in contact with as many sectors as possible.

Let them see how/where things are made. Let them get into contact with what jobs feel like.

Then just have them pick a job and purely teach that. Start creating passionate specialists from as soon as possible.

Remove stigma around jobs that are looked down upon.

A passionate specialized plumber or construction worker is an amazing artisan.
On same level as engineers. As inventors. Just with different talents/skills.

A garbage cleaning lady keeps environment clean and hygienic. Prevents diseases

On same level as doctors. Just with different talents/skills.

With some general basic knowledge like budgeting/ethics/being mindful about how things come about/how to live mindfullnes.

Drill the golden rule in their heads.

That one sentence is in every religion. In every culture. People can still pick whichever flavour of religion they want.

Treat others as you would like others to treat you.

But just drill that one sentence in their heads. Spend a year comparing that rule to things that happened in the news, what happened in their lives. Have them debate on these things. But always bring it back to that sentence.

I think with AI and automation we are going to have even more abundance.

A lot of jobs are going to be obsolete/automated in the near future.

We need to prevent the people that get fired from losing their lives. Masses will get angry and violent otherwise.

I think for now things are held back by boomers clinging onto positions of power and status.

By oeople who grew up without the possibility of communicating with everyone and anything. Who didn't have the world's knowledge at their finger tips.

Sorry for the long post. I overthink things constantly and think there is a solution to any problem. If I don't see possible solution I will get stuck on problem for weeks/months.

I use AI to do research.

I contact professors/experts through email/just go walk up to them and ask them what they think possible solutions are.

Need to know every issue is solvable. Never ran into one that wasn't.

Need to drill this into kids early as well. Prevent fear, despair,

Another thing that should be drilled into kids. To not have fear to ask information about things from experts.
Usually experts are passionate about their specialties who would love to get more people into their field.

When you reduce everything to the absurd.
I usually come to conclusion that most issues see caused by excess consumerism, infinite growth mindset and fear of discussing taboo subjects.

Again, sorry for the long post.

 

[music]

If we were to let all the cows and chickens out into the wild.

How long would they last against natural predator?

Is the solution to eternally keep them imprisoned?

it's easy to think that as well but it's just not realistic to expect everybody to suddenly switch. that won't happen. the ones currently alive will be killed and eaten as they are until the forced breeding goes down with demand. maybe it's then that there will be systematic changes which forbid the atrocities going on behind the gates but until then... i don't know. some just refuse to seriously consider it as evidenced in this thread. i'm not going to be the one to argue with them

 

[mikgazer6]

I am against the creation of life which includes animal breeding. I support the idea of veganism. However, I don't see my miniscule positive effect of me being vegan outweighing the immediate sizable negative effect of being inconvenienced with a restricted way of living. I try to live minimalistically and have what could be called a "flexitarian" diet but veganism goes beyond my selfish line. The burdens of restricted freedom and the added conscious thinking behind all my actions are more than I have the will for. I guess ultimately what is preventing me from being vegan is its inaccessibility. If the lifestyle was convenient enough I would practice it.

 

[mikgazer6]

I've thought about this ^ the past week and have more or less reasoned out the selfish aspect (quite easy coming from an antinatalist and promortalist view) and am now working on the transition. I still see it as an inconvenient burden though.