If you're not vegan, what prevents you from being one?

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I was surprised to see this thread here. For some reason I was hoping the people here would have more of an inclination to agree with an ethics-based philosophy aimed at reducing suffering.

I don't want to necro this thread or call anyone out but I want to say that if you can take one thing from this thread is that just because someone is part of a certain group , it doesn't mean they got there for the same reason. Aka , suicidal people aren't a monolith of morality, there are many reasons to be suicidal. But I do agree with what you typed, personally in the last years I've cut out a lot of animal product but yeah, it's expensive to go fully vegan where I'm from, long story short.

There's also many more people who believe what you said and many more who don't believe what you said but they never bother to type, just like this was your first comment.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I'm actually interested in being vegan but I'm highly allergic to cashews and I have specific medical and athletic needs that need attention. I'm working with a dietician and I'm trying out vegan alternatives along the way.

 

[d0nut]

I don't want to necro this thread or call anyone out but I want to say that if you can take one thing from this thread is that just because someone is part of a certain group , it doesn't mean they got there for the same reason. Aka , suicidal people aren't a monolith of morality, there are many reasons to be suicidal. But I do agree with what you typed, personally in the last years I've cut out a lot of animal product but yeah, it's expensive to go fully vegan where I'm from, long story short.

There's also many more people who believe what you said and many more who don't believe what you said but they never bother to type, just like this was your first comment.

I didn't mean to imply a monolith. My assumption here was from thinking that it was likelier for people here to empathize with the suffering of other sentient beings, considering suicidality often stems from intense physical/mental suffering. But you are right, there are many reasons to be suicidal and I don't really understand them all if I'm being honest.

 

[incorolla]

I really feel bad for a lot of the animals that get slaughtered, especially when their lives tend to be short and lived under inhumane conditions. However, I also really like hamburgers.

 

[starboy2k]

I used to be vegetarian by force of my adoptive mother (she's a cunt btw) but when I grew older and discovered what BBQ chicken tasted like…it was no going back

 

[The Actual Devil]

>not intending this to come across in a critical way

>Is critical of every response.
​

(Not in a "criticize" way, but a literally critical way, i.e., critical analysis. Still, though. I can't shut my big mouth when irony pops up.)

First off:

1. I know OP's been gone for months. They don't have a goodbye post (that I could see), so I hope they're living a good life, and we never see a response from them, which I mean in the kindest way possible.
2. I am adding to this thread without reading every other post first. If what I have to say is not unique here, I will eat crow (get it? it's a thread about veganism... yeah, you get it).
3. This is maybe my very most controversial opinion.
4. Any are welcome to skewer me for this.

Of all the vegan threads in all the world, why did this one have to waltz into my "similar threads"?

I reject the idea of objective morality. That isn't the purpose of this thread, so I'll not derail it by banging on about this point.
Subjectively, I think it is just as immoral to consume plants as it is animals. As such, I wholeheartedly and unironically reject moral veganism. (Granted, that still leaves room for argument for moral veganism from an environmentalist perspective, which I again reject, but would derail the thread for yet another reason.)

Plants can talk.
Plants can feel.
Plants scream when you cut them.
Another poster said something like, "If the noise of an animal being beaten brought you joy, would you do it?"
Two-part response:

1. Yes. Because if the noise of an animal being beaten brought me joy, I would be a goddamned sociopath, and that's exactly how they function.
2. If your ears could pick up the noise of a plant screaming while you chopped, chewed, or cooked it, how would that affect your life? Assume—just for fun—that it's really loud.

Continuing on to fungus and slime...

They can think, have intelligence, and have cognitive abilities.
They can talk, communicate, and listen.
They can solve problems, puzzles, and make decisions.

You must be great at parties.
Well, I guess you could say I'm a fun-g, actually loud noises scare me.
(They make me shiitake my pants.)

Alright. Potential counterargument:
You're anthropomorphizing vegetation!
Yes, and? Isn't that what vegans do with animals? I mean: same. I'm making the argument that animal life isn't more sacred than plant life, but I'm not putting either down. I'm just bringing all other life up.

But, animals are more sentient than vegetation! It doesn't matter that plants have some feelings: they aren't on par with animals!
Hmm, maybe. Hey--quick question--you didn't forget about bugs, yeah? And like, worms and whatnot? I simply do not see how a dust mite--one of the smallest animals--has more value than a tomato plant. Oh, you don't draw the line at dust mites? Oh, you mean animal animals, ok. Well, dust mites are animals, so where do you draw the line? Is it... someplace above bugs/insects? If so, eat some crickets. No, seriously: commit to the bit. No guts. Except cricket guts. In your guts. I'll wait. Oh, you changed your mind about the dust mites: they count now? Cool. Stop blinking: every time you do, there's a chance of some drowning in your tears (mood, amirite?).

Look, I'm getting silly, I know, but I'm serious about this line of reasoning. Who are you to draw the line on which life is sacred, and which life is a worthy sacrifice: the government? And let's not forget each single-celled organism that dies every time you, well, do anything. Even the cells of your body are alive, albeit dependent on you.
And yes, much of what I've said is hyperbolic, especially the part about plants screaming. And I'm extrapolating a lot of data to assume all vegetation shares these "humanizing" qualities. I'm just trying to get you to consider that you've drawn an arbitrary line concerning which lifeforms are friends and which are food. And I do unironically feel just as bad (read: a very high amount) for a plucked tomato as a slaughtered cow when I allow my empathy to activate for either one. Selective empathy ftw so I can eat a steak with onions, ig.

If the whole "plants don't exhibit signs of sentience or sapience without the use of specialized equipment for us to detect it" part is the crux of a vegan's argument, then I suppose if I blinded and deafened them, armed them with a machine gun, and pointed them toward a crowded room, that would make them the most moral mass shooter in history, yes? On account that they couldn't perceive the horrors they were inflicting?

Ok, one last nail in the coffin of ethical veganism (imo, at least): a thought experiment. Oh, it's not mine. And I cannot for the life of me remember or find the original source. But it is disturbing.

Imagine an intelligent, mobile alien race that evolved in such a way that they consume no other life-form to survive. Be it humanoid plant-creatures powered by something akin to photosynthesis, or sentient gas clouds: anything that fits the premise here. Now, imagine they visit Earth. And they witness us. Animals eating animals, animals eating plants, plants eating animals, and fungi eating us all. Imagine their horror. To them, we—and many of the lifeforms on Earth—are immoral. To them, we are savages. Monsters.

So, how could we ethically eat, then? Well, I imagine we could invent machines that rip the elements of nutrition from the air—Nitrogen, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Carbon—as well as the sea and land. Then we could ethically eat whatever gruel it outputs.

Until then, I recommend a temporary measure: stop giving a shit.
I'm only touching on this because another user called OP right and himself an asshole for refusing to go vegan. He's right. But he's also wrong. OP is not morally superior. I reject the shades of grey thinking that different lifeforms have different values. You are either moral or you aren't. So, we're all assholes.
On the brightside, in a world where everyone is an asshole, the term loses all meaning.

Seriously, radical acceptance of your own shortcomings is the real OP here. I haven't felt an ounce of cognitive dissonance since I stopped thinking about myself as a "good person".

I still feel bad watching things die, so I try to avoid seeing it. I don't think about dead cows when I'm eating a burger, just as I don't think about the dead wheat in the bun or the dust mites tumbling down into the murder machine that is my body.

Maybe someday I'll explore my personal philosophy more in a relevant thread, but this cattle car is getting dangerously close to derailment, so I'll leave you with some kind words:
You can stop overthinking things if you allow yourself to.
At least, that's my hope for you.

TL; DR
If aliens visit Earth and they catch you eating a salad, they are just as likely to destroy the planet if you had been eating a ribeye instead.

 

[StupidCat]

cats need meat

 

[The Actual Devil]

cats need meat

Change your username
You just won this debate


We can close this thread now

 

[Killmeonce]

I was thinking the other day, for the first time, I wish I was vegan, due to the true realisation that the meat and dairy indrustry is very exploitative. But I find it extremely hard to give up meat and fish, as well as cheese. It would probably take some serious hypnotion. I actually didn't grow up eating meat, as my parents didn't introduce it to me till I was 13- in the form of chicken. At the time I loved it, but looking back I wish they didn't do that. I would probably still be meat- free today otherwise. As I can't eat any other meat, my body just isn't used to it and throws it up. I gave meat (chicken) up a few times, but always came back when I was sick or depressed, as for some reason it became the one thing to make me feel better. Like chicken, I haven't been able to find a good alternative to my favourites fish and cheese. It sounds selfish, but I just don't have the willpower to give them up.

 

[blueocean093]

If animals could have a ss forum, the memberships would be in the billions

 

[The Actual Devil]

If animals could have a ss forum, the memberships would be in the billions

Imagine a slug ordering table salt through the dark web.

 

[blueocean093]

Imagine a slug ordering table salt through DMC.

Whats dmc sorry

 

[6138]

I love animals, which is why I am a vegetarian. I really like the taste of meat (Or, liked, I haven't eaten it in many, many years), but I just can't stand animals being killed for my food.

I am not a full vegan because I just think it would be too restrictive on my diet. I've had friends who have been vegan, and they have to look through the ingredients on all their food, looking up the "E" numbers, etc, etc. I don't want to live like that.

I really enjoy food, it's one of the few pleasures that I can enjoy. I don't want to give up ice cream, cheese, chocolate, etc. I know there are vegan alternatives, and I do eat those from time to time, but there's nothing like the original.

Curious as to how vegans here feel about lab grown meat? If it doesn't involve an animal being killed, is it ok?

 

[The Actual Devil]

I love animals, which is why I am a vegetarian. I really like the taste of meat (Or, liked, I haven't eaten it in many, many years), but I just can't stand animals being killed for my food.

I am not a full vegan because I just think it would be too restrictive on my diet. I've had friends who have been vegan, and they have to look through the ingredients on all their food, looking up the "E" numbers, etc, etc. I don't want to live like that.

I really enjoy food, it's one of the few pleasures that I can enjoy. I don't want to give up ice cream, cheese, chocolate, etc. I know there are vegan alternatives, and I do eat those from time to time, but there's nothing like the original.

Curious as to how vegans here feel about lab grown meat? If it doesn't involve an animal being killed, is it ok?

Yeah, that idea meshes with my point nicely. Engineered food is, imo, the only way to eat ethically, as it is the only thing that hypothetically doesn't lead to an organism's harm. Here's a problem with lab-grown meat, though: some of it is made using samples of real meat, so at what point does the death of the original cow, for example, become worthwhile? Butchered normally, a cow serves over 2,000 people. If a lab "stretches" that out to 20,000, is that finally ethical? What about 2 billion? What if a lab that only needs one cow as a sacrifice for a sample, and then grows meat from that forever? Is one death to feed all future people forever ethical, by a vegan's standards? Again, I know many of them are "in it" for the environment, but what about the "animal life is sacred" absolutists? I just wonder where they draw the line on sacrificial cows, so to speak.
Lastly, let's say you don't need to kill an animal for samples. You harvest living tissue painlessly from a donor and grow it from there. Technically, that "goes against god's will" in many religions, for example, Judaism (kashrut), Christianity (see Judaism), and Islam (halal).
So, who's more ethical? A vegan who capitulates on lab-grown meat, or a member of those religions who does the same?

 

[6138]

So, who's more ethical? A vegan who capitulates on lab-grown meat, or a member of those religions who does the same?

Personally, I would take a logical, reasonable, approach.

Sacrificing a small number of animals to feed thousands... I could live with that.
But the large scale factory farming, battery hens, veal, etc? I just can't support that.

 

[itsoverforme303]

Steak tastes really good.

 

[Griever]

I am a vegetarian and see no reason to become vegan

 

[Emerita]

I've been a vegetarian since I was 13. My stepdad bet me $100 that I couldn't do it. Ever since then I've been vegetarian. I never got that $100, though! Anyway what prevents me is I simply dont want to be vegan.

I don't consider myself a mote moral though. For instance, when I see a spider in my room, I tend to kill it with a torch because I'm scared of them, and I also kill mosquitoes. Also I'll admit I wish every moth would go extinct they make me cry. And I would argue that at least when your eating the animal it has a purpose while Im just killing them.

While I believe the way some industries handle livestock is problematic, I think it's primarily their responsibility to improve. Many individuals consume these products not out of a desire for animal suffering, but simply because they enjoy them and can afford them. It's unfortunate that companies that treat animals better often charge more. I think buying locally for food products is a great option when possible, but I understand that it's not a reality for everyone, and that's okay.

 

[Cauliflour]

"Plant based alternatives" are all just processed crap to ween you off proper food. How many times do you see ads for carrots? They're vegan but they're not processed. Besides, think of all the energy needed to mass produce that crap. You could argue that animals take up land and cows produce methane (surely you could build some air filter though?) but the difference is that a dozen pigs on a farm isn't pumping out liters of oil to use as power: just farm space and food which is still an environmental sacrifice but it's a lot better than burning god knows what in a factory somewhere. And before someone goes "oh but you can use eco power!" do you really think these American corporations are gonna be powering their factory lines with a couple of solar panels?

I can see why so many people, especially in America want to be vegan though. Food quality is awful over there and animals aren't treated with the respect they deserve (not to mention how America loves to process anything edible by chucking chemicals into it so I imagine a lot of supermarket meat isn't too good for you) so I can see how someone can think that the logical solution is to stop eating meat, when in reality it's more complex than that. If we all stop eating meat then where do the farm animals go? The ones on free range farms are used to being in a predator free zone where a farmer looks after them and gives them food and shelter, and mass produced animals are used to those horrifying little cages and cramped pens. They won't stand a chance out in the wild and would mess up the food chain. I have nothing against vegans, it's your lifestyle after all, but it's the ones that treat people like animal abusers for simply liking chicken nuggets that piss me off. I think the best way to help animals is to shop at local farms where you can drive your car and see where your food is coming from and how it's being treated. Not to mention free range just tastes much nicer due to happy animals. Free range costs more though so I can see why people stick with processed but if you can afford it, I think you should to send a message to these corporations that they have to do better.

Sorry if I came off as "preach-y" but I don't like this rise in fake meat so I felt like I had to say something. Not sure how you get all the vitamins you need though, like what about iron? I think vegetarianism makes more sense.

Also I hate really processed food and I hate low quality food but I really like good cuts of meat but I don't like enough vegetables to be able to live as a vegan that doesn't touch that fake meat nonsense.

 

[composingthefuture]

other than my first answer which is me being huge and greedy and liking the taste of animal products, the lifestyle sounds expensive and making meals that actually taste good seem like theyd take a lot of effort, then you have to worry about the nutrients you miss out on and take supplements for those, its a lot of work that i dont really got the time or money to keep p with

 

[LostLily]

It hard to break a habit when you grew up eating animals an animal products. I wish I had the strength to quit them because I'm an animal lover.

 

[patheticparasite]

I've never tasted meat in my life, so I don't know what I'm missing and I'm grateful for that. Unfortunately, that's not the case for dairy.

 

[Squiggles3]

I don't care about taking care of my body so I have no reason to do it for health reasons. I don't plan on living long so there is little point in committing to making any changes in the world. It would be nice if animals didn't have to suffer though.

 

[Carrot]

If you're not vegan, what prevents you from being one?

the animal is already dead so idgaf you can't hurt somethings thats already dead

Same.

Future animals can be hurt though.


I'm surprised how long this thread is.

 

[Lapdog6795]

Because I'm not able to understand the logic behind veganism. If you think that by following a plant based diet you're not harming a life or causing any suffering then I think you should reconsider your belief.
Plants, trees, fungi do experience suffering, maybe not in the form of pain like we experience but they do try to survive in every situation.
We don't know much about this yet but there are solid evidence that plants can feel and react.
The truth is existence of one life requires suffering of the other.

 

[road2joy]

Because I'm not able to understand the logic behind veganism. If you think that by following a plant based diet you're not harming a life or causing any suffering then I think you should reconsider your belief.
Plants, trees, fungi do experience suffering, maybe not in the form of pain like we experience but they do try to survive in every situation.
We don't know much about this yet but there are solid evidence that plants can feel and react.
The truth is existence of one life requires suffering of the other.

I am the same. I'm not a vegan because I don't understand the logic. This has opened me up to analyzing the difference between suffering and pain. You're right in that even though they don't experience pain like we do, they do experience "suffering." I heavily disagree with the last sentence though. Though metaphorically plausible, it doesn't have to be like that.

 

[The Actual Devil]

I am the same. I'm not a vegan because I don't understand the logic. This has opened me up to analyzing the difference between suffering and pain. You're right in that even though they don't experience pain like we do, they do experience "suffering." I heavily disagree with the last sentence though. Though metaphorically plausible, it doesn't have to be like that.

Yeah, that's what I wrote about in my long post above on this page. It's just a matter of engineering: we should be able to draw raw elements from inorganic sources and even the air itself to make sugars, amino acids, vitamins, etc. In theory, nothing needs to die in order to sustain us. It's just a matter of how.

 

[Lapdog6795]

I heavily disagree with the last sentence though. Though metaphorically plausible, it doesn't have to be like that.

Well, I agree that it doesn't have to be like that, but generally this is what ends up happening. Even plants and trees cause suffering to other lives for survival. It might be discomforting but "existence requires suffering" or "life feeds on life" seems to be a fundamental truth of life's existence.

I would like to know, if you have example of any life form that doesn't cause any harm to other lives for its survival.

 

[road2joy]

Well, I agree that it doesn't have to be like that, but generally this is what ends up happening. Even plants and trees cause suffering to other lives for survival. It might be discomforting but "existence requires suffering" or "life feeds on life" seems to be a fundamental truth of life's existence.

I would like to know, if you have example of any life form that doesn't cause any harm to other lives for its survival.

Unless you're talking about parasitic funghi or something with an invasive root system I really can't think of any examples of trees and plants causing suffering for their own survival. My example I guess might have been plants and trees.

I know this is a classic philosophical debate but I really think the definition of "suffering" is too broad in this case. This branch of philosophy is purposefully cynical and that's not really something I like to indulge in.

My philosophy: Hierachies matter. We all cause the suffering of something beneath us, but then at the bottom of that is the beauty of nature which can withstand suffering, and you can hack up plants to your heart's content and no suffering is really "felt." I don't think plants can have the suffering you're talking about because there's no circuit board on their head. That's where the suffering is felt, really.

 

[karakoltriste]

I'm vegan but the question is so easy: selfishness