Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[devils~advocate]

SCUBA is the underwater use version of the SCBA. Apparently, if you go for a Positive Pressure SCUBA mask, you gonna end up spending just as much money as with a SCBA setup. SCBA is not complicated.

"He says industrial respirator masks are engineered to keep external air out, not to contain a pure gas under pressure. But it's also difficult to maintain a reliable seal."

Well these particular masks do just this. The positive pressure does in fact keep external air out. But the supply 'air' is under pressure. In typical use it might be regular air, but it's under pressure none the less.

 

[sm1the]

"He says industrial respirator masks are engineered to keep external air out, not to contain a pure gas under pressure. But it's also difficult to maintain a reliable seal."

Well these particular masks do just this. The positive pressure does in fact keep external air out. But the supply 'air' is under pressure. In typical use it might be regular air, but it's under pressure none the less.

Maybe he was referring to other masks and not SCBA,EEBD?
Because otherwise it a bit confusing why he would say this.
I thought he had mentioned these in the pph as well,but not in a negative light.

 

[devils~advocate]

Maybe he was referring to other masks and not SCBA,EEBD?
Because otherwise it a bit confusing why he would say this.
I thought he had mentioned these in the pph as well,but not in a negative light.

Maybe so. Yeah it is confusing but I understand.
I guess the guy he is quoting advocates for a particular method that isnt this one.
Maybe sometimes advocates of one particular way get so wrapped up in defending that one way, that they can appear to do the opposite for other ways.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

Maybe he was referring to other masks and not SCBA,EEBD?
Because otherwise it a bit confusing why he would say this.
I thought he had mentioned these in the pph as well,but not in a negative light.

That's what I was thinking too. Since there is very mixed results with some of the contraptions he has come up with regarding inert gas in the past involving putting things over/covering your head, and now he has pivoted almost entirely towards the Sarco system. So perhaps has just lost faith in the other ideas now. Although he did say the exit bag works perfectly fine if you know what you're doing, many people don't like it. I've seen many on here struggling to get it right.

But has he ever even tested some of these high end expensive masks?

He never went into specifics in that interview, just that the execution of that guy in Alabama (Kenneth smith) was a mistake because of the mask and the fact that gas is a poor method for execution because people will hold their breath and actively fight the process.

But I couldn't get a sense from him, which he thought was the more significant factor. I tried researching what mask they used, but apparently it wasn't published.

But these guys even manage to botch lethal injections too on occasions, so it's hardly the benchmark for success/failure.

 

[User8]

Maybe he was referring to other masks and not SCBA,EEBD?

 

[Fadenself00_]

brand-name positive pressure SCBA masks make a really tight seal.. Firefighters use them after all, and they have to be reliable even with heavy moving/navigation through burning houses, so I see no problem with them coming loose, if strapped tight enough.

 

[sm1the]

There was at least 1 post on SaSu of someone testing his EEBD where he said the O2 must go down to 0 in the hood under a specific time(under a minute I think),does anyone know what that time is or where the post/posts are?.

I got to 0 after 2min30sec I think,is this ok?

brand-name positive pressure SCBA masks make a really tight seal.. Firefighters use them after all, and they have to be reliable even with heavy moving/navigation through burning houses, so I see no problem with them coming loose, if strapped tight enough.

U can say that with reasonable certainty only when conscious.

 

[Fadenself00_]

There was at least 1 post on SaSu of someone testing his EEBD where he said the O2 must go down to 0 in the hood under a specific time(under a minute I think),does anyone know what that time is or where the post/posts are?.

I got to 0 after 2min30sec I think,is this ok?

U can say that with reasonable certainty only when conscious.

One can make pretty much every movement they want, to test it out.
The advantage with positive-pressure SCBA is that small gaps in the seal do not matter (except that they do - slightly - accelerate gas consumption)

 

[sm1the]

One can make pretty much every movement they want, to test it out.
The advantage with positive-pressure SCBA is that small gaps in the seal do not matter (except that they do - slightly - accelerate gas consumption)

I completely missed the part - POSITIVE PRESSURE, in SCBA description.
So you may be right.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

One can make pretty much every movement they want, to test it out.
The advantage with positive-pressure SCBA is that small gaps in the seal do not matter (except that they do - slightly - accelerate gas consumption)

So is it designed to recognise a change in pressure because of the gap, and push more oxygen (in our case nitrogen) out that gap at a faster rate than what's trying to come in? There by maintaining the same atmosphere inside the mask?

Does it make any difference to how it works, that we're using it for nitrogen when it was designed for oxygen? Oxygen is slightly heavier than nitrogen - by about 14%.

This was the podcast I was listening to:



Talks about exit bags around 10mins in, then at 15mins talks about the execution and masks and why they abandoned the idea of masks years earlier.

But if he is mostly talking here about their experiments with the rebreather mask as @User8 posted, then that's really nothing like what these scba mask do right?

Again, no idea what mask they used in that execution. But it's likely they got a bunch of stuff wrong with the method anyway, for example he had a full beard which even that alone would make getting a tight seal challenging.

 

[Fadenself00_]

So is it designed to recognise a change in pressure because of the gap, and push more oxygen (in our case nitrogen) out that gap at a faster rate than what's trying to come in? There by maintaining the same atmosphere inside the mask?

Does it make any difference to how it works, that we're using it for nitrogen when it was designed for oxygen? Oxygen is slightly heavier than nitrogen - by about 14%.

This was the podcast I was listening to:



Talks about exit bags around 10mins in, then at 15mins talks about the execution and masks and why they abandoned the idea of masks years earlier.

But if he is mostly talking here about their experiments with the rebreather mask as @User8 posted, then that's really nothing like what these scba mask do right?

Again, no idea what mask they used in that execution. But it's likely they got a bunch of stuff wrong with the method anyway, for example he had a full beard which even that alone would make getting a tight seal challenging.

There are a bunch of videos showcasing and tearing down positive-pressure LDVs

 

[User8]

There was at least 1 post on SaSu of someone testing his EEBD where he said the O2 must go down to 0 in the hood under a specific time(under a minute I think),does anyone know what that time is or where the post/posts are?.

I got to 0 after 2min30sec I think,is this ok?

U can say that with reasonable certainty only when conscious.

Below I post a screenchot for the EEDB hood procedure.
And here is @Vizzy EEDB guide:

Nitrogen gas with EEBD hood Guide (Inert gas Method)

NITROGEN GAS WITH EEBD HOOD (INERT GAS METHOD) before I start this guide, let’s be honest this method is expensive (approximately 600 to 800 dollars)and you need minimum 1 -2 months to source the equipments and nitrogen gas cylinder. My tip for you to do it cheap, purchase the Chinese products...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[devils~advocate]

Ive seen a documented case study of someone using a SCUBA system.

I just feel sorry for my family that will find me with all this.
I plan on covering myself with a sheet and having notes taped to the door explaining what has happened.

 

[sm1the]

I

Below I post a screenchot for the EEDB hood procedure.
And here is @Vizzy EEDB guide:

Nitrogen gas with EEBD hood Guide (Inert gas Method)

NITROGEN GAS WITH EEBD HOOD (INERT GAS METHOD) before I start this guide, let’s be honest this method is expensive (approximately 600 to 800 dollars)and you need minimum 1 -2 months to source the equipments and nitrogen gas cylinder. My tip for you to do it cheap, purchase the Chinese products...

sanctioned-suicide.net

What I meant was-
There was at least 1 person who tested how long the eebd with dummy(or without) takes to reach 0% O2 (with n2 flowing) who stated something like
'O2 needs to drop to 0 within a minute(or such) for the test to be successful'.
(not an exact quote).
Is the above statement accurate?
I'm interested in knowing more about this since in my test I achieved-
0.6% O2 in 2min30sec.I stopped N2 at this stage because I thought it was the O2 analyser that reads slowly.
Then with the N2 flow still off I got-

• 3mins 0%
• 11mins 0.3%
• 13 mins 0.5%
• 15 min 0.6%

Ive also been trying to ascertain whether the results from my test are acceptable,poor,good etc?

The screenshot u sent was interesting, that seems to be like the hood made by a very large Chinese safety device manufacturer(starts with Yi).
However theirs doesn't have an exhaust valve I think.

 

[User8]

Is the above statement accurate?

I haven't really looked into EEDB much. I think it would be better if you pre-fill the hood before pulling it down onto the dummy head in order to be more accurate with how long it takes.

 

[MyMomWasMyLife]

Yep: https://www.hermantheshocker.com/15-cases-of-helium-suicides/

This seems so simple. Why is the Nitrogen version so much more involved/complicated? Wouldn't this simple set-up work pretty much the same with Nitrogen?

 

[User8]

This seems so simple. Why is the Nitrogen version so much more involved/complicated? Wouldn't this simple set-up work pretty much the same with Nitrogen?

Helium, nitrogen and argon are all inert gases so you can implement any of them in any inert gas setup. Nowadays it is not so easy to find pure hellium. I'd say nitrogen is the best option because it is easily available everywhere and it is slightly lighter than air. Exit bag, SCBA and EEDB are all proven peaceful methods. The SCBA and EEDB methods kill the fastest.

 

[MyMomWasMyLife]

Helium, nitrogen and argon are all inert gases so you can implement any of them in any inert gas setup. Nowadays it is not so easy to find pure hellium. I'd say nitrogen is the best option because it is easily available everywhere and it is slightly lighter than air. Exit bag, SCBA and EEDB are all proven peaceful methods. The SCBA and EEDB methods kill the fastest.

But what I'm saying is can't that simple method that the people in that link used with helium also work with nitrogen? Just the tank, hose, and bag? No hoods or flowmeters etc...

 

[User8]

But what I'm saying is can't that simple method that the people in that link used with helium also work with nitrogen? Just the tank, hose, and bag? No hoods or flowmeters etc...

Yes.

 

[MyMomWasMyLife]

Yes.

I wonder why this isn't mentioned more? It's been made so complicated, and expensive, that it seems out of reach for those who aren't mechanically inclined.

 

[User8]

I wonder why this isn't mentioned more? It's been made so complicated, and expensive, that it seems out of reach for those who aren't mechanically inclined.

It is understood that most of us have gone through the PPH and the simple exit bag information is all in there. I guess lately it is not mentioned more because the SCBA and EEDB methods are more effective, kill you faster, etc. It is not so complicated but the information is scattered. If you prefer to keep it simple just go for the exit bag, and if you want it to be more talked about, you can talk about it and go ahead and help others get their exit bag setup?? Have you been reading the megathread from the beginning at all? The information is all there. You need to put in the time to understand your method. Even the exit bag gets a bit technical. Is there anything you need help with?

 

[sm1the]

This seems so simple. Why is the Nitrogen version so much more involved/complicated? Wouldn't this simple set-up work pretty much the same with Nitrogen?

At least some of those I ppl most likely went through a bit of pain(although maybe not that long?, I dont know).
Uncontrolled fast gas delivery to the lungs causes barotrauma If I remember correctly,your lungs will bleed as well from what I read .
I could not do the 'simple way' knowing this.
I have severe physical issues at this stage that make doing the setup very difficult(extreme hand trembling etc)but I still managed to do it,it was an effort.

Below I post a screenchot for the EEDB hood procedure.
And here is @Vizzy EEDB guide:

Nitrogen gas with EEBD hood Guide (Inert gas Method)

NITROGEN GAS WITH EEBD HOOD (INERT GAS METHOD) before I start this guide, let’s be honest this method is expensive (approximately 600 to 800 dollars)and you need minimum 1 -2 months to source the equipments and nitrogen gas cylinder. My tip for you to do it cheap, purchase the Chinese products...

sanctioned-suicide.net

I found one example of ppl doing EEBD O2 tests and mentioning timings-

Vizzy says when he tested the hood with a dummy and O2 analyzer it went to 0% O2 in 20 seconds-

Thread 'Nitrogen gas with EEBD hood Guide (Inert gas Method)'

Nitrogen gas with EEBD hood Guide (Inert gas Method)

NITROGEN GAS WITH EEBD HOOD (INERT GAS METHOD) before I start this guide, let’s be honest this method is expensive (approximately 600 to 800 dollars)and you need minimum 1 -2 months to source the equipments and nitrogen gas cylinder. My tip for you to do it cheap, purchase the Chinese products...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Vizy-
"After switching on the nitrogen gas, it went to zero level and it was fast, no one surviving that lol (this happened at 20lpm within 20sec)"

I'm guessing he didn't actually mean a timed 20 seconds here?

 

[sm1the]

I think buying an EEBD as a full kit is better than purchasing just the hood.
If you get the full kit that includes a full (very small)air cylinder you can test the hood to make sure everything works ok right?.
This is probably more true for those EEBD's with exhale valves, can test the functioning of the valve.
Checking if it doesn't stick closed or stick open.
What do u think?.

 

[BirdWatcher]

I hope this isn't too political, but recent events are threatening to greatly increase the global helium price:

The Iran war has spiked helium prices. Here's which products and industries could get more expensive.

Cell phones, MRIs, and space research are among the things that could get more expensive as helium prices spike.

www.businessinsider.com

China fast tracks domestic helium storage bank to secure supply as costs surge

China’s largest domestic helium supplier, Guangzhou Guanggang Gases & Energy, has disclosed it is working with the Chinese Academy of Sciences to develop the country’s first underground helium storage project, according to a report from an Asian tech platform.

www.gasworld.com

The average consumer might get priced out of helium in the near future. Though from what I understand most people here advocate for nitrogen anyway.

 

[DeathSweetDeath]

I wonder why this isn't mentioned more? It's been made so complicated, and expensive, that it seems out of reach for those who aren't mechanically inclined.

They say yes, I say no.

I assumed it was out of reach for me too, as I'm not mechanically inclined either. But that's the thing… seeming out of reach and being out of reach are two different things. The more I read about it, the more I realized I could do it. Now, my setup (with an exit bag though) is ready to go whenever I am.

 

[devils~advocate]

That website shows most of the people just taping plastic bags around their necks and having a supply tubing straight into the bag. They result was still ctb.
I guess one could call this is the low tech method.

The exit bag as described in the handbooks and other literature is step above above this. The self manufacture of the bag is spelled out and can be assembled with higher craftsmanship. One can use a regulator and flowmeter to adjust the delivery precisely and more effectively.

I would argue that the next step above the exit bag would be the EEBD (Emergency Escape Breathing Device). These are basically higher quality manufactured exit bags. Everything is already built into the system from the hood, hoses, etc.

And next step above this would be SCBA. I would argue that is a more troublesome to acquire and setup. The advantage is this system doesnt deliver a constant flow like the other methods and is every efficient at gas consumption.

 

[BirdWatcher]

There's a new thread up right now, showcasing what seems to be lung damage from a ctb attempt with helium and a mask: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/failed-miserably.250084/

Am I right to assume that the risk of something like this happening is lower with a classical exit bag? Meaning just an oven bag fixed around your neck with elastic cord, and the tube going up your neck, under the cord and into the bag? This should allow for excess pressure to escape more easily.

 

[hughmun9]

There's a new thread up right now, showcasing what seems to be lung damage from a ctb attempt with helium and a mask: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/failed-miserably.250084/

Am I right to assume that the risk of something like this happening is lower with a classical exit bag? Meaning just an oven bag fixed around your neck with elastic cord, and the tube going up your neck, under the cord and into the bag? This should allow for excess pressure to escape more easily.

I would assume so as well. I would think the excess pressure would be able to escape near your neck and if the seal is too tight the oven bag would likely rupture first rather than your lungs

 

[devils~advocate]

Assume as well that blood in his mask is from pulmonary barotrauma.
Helium like all inert gases, doesnt react or damage tissue.
The only other issue that I can think of is that the pressure was high enough and filled the lungs.
Scuba diving is usually related to this issue. As divers ascend from deep water, the pressure of air in the lungs expands.

Or could also be mask squeeze.
According to one website, if the regulator was not supplying gas fast enough to match the person's breathing, it can create a powerful vacuum inside the mask. This vacuum forcefully sucks on the face, eyes, and nasal tissues, causing immediate capillary breakage, severe bruising, and heavy bleeding into the mask.

The flow rate maybe was too high. OP says they had a regulator and I assume with a flowmeter.
They set it to 25 l/m. 25 l/m seems a little high for a person at rest...not sure if flowmeter was taken into account that it is helium, which would run faster.
Probably flow needs to be a lot lower....10 l/m?.

Seems these types of masks (air respirators) aren't really designed for delivering pressurized air and expelling the excess in a manner that is safe.
They rely on normal air being pulled thru a filter into the mask. From what I have read, the exhalation ports can't handle pressurized air at this rate.
The flow might have been too weak to force open the exhaust valve, but far too strong for a human to comfortably exhale against.
Pressure backs up instantly into the lungs.....

But there are air fed respirators that are made for this, since they are designed for high flow rates (115-170 l/m) and exhalation valves that can handle that flow.

So I think the mask might be the issue It wasnt designed for the flow and exhalation needed for such a setup.

I guess one could practice using the system with an regular pressurized air tank to see what flow etc is needed for a setup such at this.

 

[sm1the]

There's a new thread up right now, showcasing what seems to be lung damage from a ctb attempt with helium and a mask: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/failed-miserably.250084/

Am I right to assume that the risk of something like this happening is lower with a classical exit bag? Meaning just an oven bag fixed around your neck with elastic cord, and the tube going up your neck, under the cord and into the bag? This should allow for excess pressure to escape more easily.

An accurate regulator that can maintain a steady flow of the set LPM is also essential, I would say.
A dual stage regulator with flowmeter is probably best here but I dont know how widely available they are in comparison to single stage ones

..............................................................
I tested the elsa yesterday using the air cylinder from the kit to make sure the exhale valve works,no leaks at seams etc.
It was easier than I thought to put on(web searched the correct method to donn the hood,it was worth it!).

It was easy to breathe in.
You can feel exhaled breath going out the valve.
Hood slightly inflates and deflates when breathing.
The hood inflated more than I thought it would but I think within limit.(over inflated hood is apparently faulty?)