Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[kudaphillips]

How would it benefit from using the regular inner mask of the hood? Or are you referring to the exit bag?

I can tell from experience from using a closed constant flow setup that 10/lpm is not nearly enough, even with shallow breath 25/lpm was just enough to feel comfortable 30-35/lpm is what I'm going to use most likely.

35 lpm for exit bag ? Or for eebd

I think I found a tank...a needle in a haystack. However, can you experts explain to me....is there risk of "suffocating" feeling, once you start breathing in the nitrogen and you no longer have oxygen? If you use a SCBA system? Or any other system? Also, how loud is the release of the nitrogen? Is there a hissing sound that could be overheard if you are in a hotel? @Tears in Rain @outrider567 @kudaphillips @Kapsyl

You shouldn't feel any suffocation if it's pure nitrogen . If done incorrectly , then yes .
Yes hissing sound, but I think a hotel would be completely fine , not loud enough to alarm anyone in a hotel

 

[Kapsyl]

35 lpm for exit bag ? Or for eebd

For any constant flow setups like my mask and possibly eebd. By the way how exactly airtight are these eebd hoods? Could you or someone be so kind to test if these hoods keep out air on their own. Are you able to breathe when no nitrogen is flowing? Do they form a vacuum when trying to breathe without air? Or do they allow small amounts of air too come through and relay on the nitrogen to push out the air?

 

[limeoctave]

Are you able to breathe when no nitrogen is flowing?

no

Do they form a vacuum when trying to breathe without air?

yes

at least mine (Draeger Saver CF)

if i remember correctly, when I closed the hole in the hose and tried to inhale, a vacuum was created, and the air did not enter the hood through the valve and elastic on the neck, even a little

 

[albstr1403]

So we have examples of people succeeding with pretty high tech setups, mostly with SCBA, SCUBA, and Vizzy with the hood but what about with exit bags? Any CTBs with Hoods besides Vizzy?

Didn't Vizzy end up doing Sn?
I've been lurking and was wondering.. what's the benefits of scba vs eebd hood?

From what I got, scba is more expensive, but seems more reliable since it's secured on your head, simpler to assemble/has less components to fuss over, and has less possible points of failures like leaks.

 

[limeoctave]

Didn't Vizzy end up doing Sn?
I've been lurking and was wondering.. what's the benefits of scba vs eebd hood?

From what I got, scba is more expensive, but seems more reliable since it's secured on your head, simpler to assemble/has less components to fuss over, and has less possible points of failures like leaks.

does the SCBA system guarantee that all exhaled air and co2 is removed from the mask immediately? if so, i guess that's the main benefit

im just not familiar with this method

 

[Tartarruss12]

My concern is for whoever has to find the person who CTB; a covered head might just be more triggering or upsetting for them.

 

[suffering_mo]

Didn't Vizzy end up doing Sn?
I've been lurking and was wondering.. what's the benefits of scba vs eebd hood?

From what I got, scba is more expensive, but seems more reliable since it's secured on your head, simpler to assemble/has less components to fuss over, and has less possible points of failures like leaks.

He did use SN and then used an EEBD hood, it seems. I think that's my concern with the EEBD hood.... what if his death had more to do with the SN versus the hood? There doesn't seem to be many examples of success....

 

[kudaphillips]

For any constant flow setups like my mask and possibly eebd. By the way how exactly airtight are these eebd hoods? Could you or someone be so kind to test if these hoods keep out air on their own. Are you able to breathe when no nitrogen is flowing? Do they form a vacuum when trying to breathe without air? Or do they allow small amounts of air too come through and relay on the nitrogen to push out the air?

In my opinion , my eebd hood is basically just like an exit bag. The purge valve doesn't work well, so essentially air just flows out the bottom , yes you can breathe in it with no nitrogen like an exit bag ( I have vizzy exact hood )

 

[limeoctave]

yes you can breathe in it with no nitrogen like an exit bag ( I have vizzy exact hood )

interesting

did you close the hole in the hose when breathe in?

 

[kudaphillips]

interesting

did you close the hole in the hose when breathe in?

I did plug the hole, I'm sure after a few minute I would start to get air hunger just like with bag .
But if the question is "is it air tight without any gas flowing?" , this is certainly a no.

 

[k1w1]

For those in the US, I called a couple of places about the nitrogen. I can rent the tank, which is good because I don't plan to stick around. However, I'm getting the run around when I ask for the info on the purest nitrogen they have. For the nationwide company that begins with Air, they said they have different types. That the best is "Industrial" grade. However, when I asked about the purity, the guy said he's asked before and no one has ever been able to answer that question.

The other smaller company also wouldn't tell me. They just said, tell me what you need it for and I can tell you what kind to get. Ugh.

Anyone in the US know what "Grade" to get from the Air___ Company?

The concentration is written on the abel. Industrial gas is 99.99
Do a search on AB for this beauty......35 bucks for the mask and ldv. This would have been inconcievable at this price even a year ago. The image is mobile and wont paste so you can look for yourselves. Soft rubber inner mask unlike the yellow hood....and a LDV. Ill order and report back.
Positive pressure air breathing apparatus mask and RHZK 6.8 / 30mpa air supply valve
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...e137cd546cf8a384523452f67ed&afSmartRedirect=y

 

[devils~advocate]

The concentration is written on the abel. Industrial gas is 99.99
Do a search on AB for this beauty......35 bucks for the mask and ldv. This would have been inconcievable at this price even a year ago. The image is mobile and wont paste so you can look for yourselves. Soft rubber inner mask unlike the yellow hood....and a LDV. Ill order and report back.
Positive pressure air breathing apparatus mask and RHZK 6.8 / 30mpa air supply valve

Good find. Would still need some sort of 1st stage pressure reducer.
But I would think that shouldnt be hard to find.
The hose connection on the ldv is a quick connect kind. I think it would be the high flow (Euro) kind. Type V style (the major D manuf ldv are)
Then its just connecting that to the regulator/reducer. Regulator would need to have an outflow of at least 100 psi.

 

[Amish]

I'm considering the EB or SN to CTB method, depending on how much material I can gather. I have questions and concerns about the EB method:

- I found a bottle of nitrogen for sale on a beer brewing equipment website. It's a 2l x 240 bar bottle, or 480l of compressed nitrogen if I'm correct. The bottle is labelled "food-grade nitrogen". Could this have an impact on the success of the EB method?

- Is 480l enough? At 15/min, that's 32 minutes of gas, which is more than the PPHE recommends.

- Is the EB method still reliable? Is there another method like EEBD, SCUBA, SBA or does it require a larger quantity of gas?

Sorry if my english is not good, I'm using Deepl

 

[limeoctave]

The concentration is written on the abel. Industrial gas is 99.99
Do a search on AB for this beauty......35 bucks for the mask and ldv. This would have been inconcievable at this price even a year ago. The image is mobile and wont paste so you can look for yourselves. Soft rubber inner mask unlike the yellow hood....and a LDV. Ill order and report back.
Positive pressure air breathing apparatus mask and RHZK 6.8 / 30mpa air supply valve
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...e137cd546cf8a384523452f67ed&afSmartRedirect=y

so this mask should work with regulator? on constant flow?

 

[devils~advocate]

so this mask should work with regulator? on constant flow?

Yes with a regulator. But its not a constant flow like a hood method, it is a on-demand type of system. See image above for possible layout.
The LDV,(lung demand valve) which is the item with the big red button. It is sort of a magical valve. It only allows air (or gas) to flow when one breathes in.
The mask has ports that are one way for exhale.
This would require some sort of regulator to bring the pressure from the gas cylinder down to a level that the LDV can use.
The LDV operates at about 85-130 psi. The pressure in the gas cylinder is at least 2200 psi.
(One couldn't connect this directly to a cylinder without having some kind of regulator...the pressure alone would either blow the mask off or damage the LDV.)

 

[limeoctave]

Yes with a regulator. But its not a constant flow like a hood method, it is a on-demand type of system. See image above for possible layout.
The LDV,(lung demand valve) which is the item with the big red button. It is sort of a magical valve. It only allows air (or gas) to flow when one breathes in.
The mask has ports that are one way for exhale.
This would require some sort of regulator to bring the pressure from the gas cylinder down to a level that the LDV can use.
The LDV operates at about 85-130 psi. The pressure in the gas cylinder is at least 2200 psi.
(One couldn't connect this directly to a cylinder without having some kind of regulator...the pressure alone would either blow the mask off or damage the LDV.)

oh i see, thank you. so it works similar to TIG gas welding, when you did setup needed pressure on regulator, and then the pressure is held in the hose, and only opens when you press the button, but here it opens when you inhale

 

[devils~advocate]

oh i see, thank you. so it works similar to TIG gas welding, when you did setup needed pressure on regulator and then it holds it, and only opens when you press the button, but here it opens when you inhale

Yes kind of like that. TIG would have an electronic switch (foot or finger) that would open a solenoid valve.
This LDV is all mechanical and seems to be balanced with inhale of breathe to open the valve.
Its like the mouthpiece used for scuba diving. But like scuba, this system would also need a regulator/reducer to bring that pressure down.

The scba system that Gas Monkey discusses has its own regulator (called a reducer in that industry, fire fighting) that brings the pressure down to a certain level without the need of adjustments or knobs etc.

This system that k1w1 describes, doesnt have that reducer included with it. But one could use a reducer from any the scba manuf. I think they are all compatible with each other. The image I have in the post above, is a possible work-around for this reducer...to just use a conventional regulator. It just has to be one that has the connection to the cylinder tank and its capable of at least 100 psi (note some only go up to 60 psi or so).
This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.

 

[limeoctave]

Yes kind of like that. TIG would have an electronic switch (foot or finger) that would open a solenoid valve.
This LDV is all mechanical and seems to be balanced with inhale of breathe to open the valve.
Its like the mouthpiece used for scuba diving. But like scuba, this system would also need a regulator/reducer to bring that pressure down.

The scba system that Gas Monkey discusses has its own regulator (called a reducer in that industry, fire fighting) that brings the pressure down to a certain level without the need of adjustments or knobs etc.

This system that k1w1 describes, doesnt have that reducer included with it. But one could use a reducer from any the scba manuf. I think they are all compatible with each other. The image I have in the post above, is a possible work-around for this reducer...to just use a conventional regulator. It just has to be one that has the connection to the cylinder tank and its capable of at least 100 psi (note some only go up to 60 psi or so).
This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.

thank you, very informative

This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.

yeah, i understand, i'm just curious. anyway, i have the eebd hood and the regulator with flowmeter and without the possibility to adjust the pressure, so in my case it won't work, and the mask isn't shipped to my country

 

[devils~advocate]

The shiny metal part on the right hand side of the black wheel, is the 'reducer' or regulator for a scba system.
It brings the pressure from the cylinder down from 2200 psi to around 100 psi.
Then from there the hose from the LDV is connected to it.


Some of the LDVs have their hose directly connected to this reducer.
While other LDVs (newer ones) have this kind of quick connection at the end that allows one to attach or unattach the hose line quickly.
I think the quick connection is the V style. Ive tested it and this appears to be the case. (background info: there are several styles of quick-connect parts...industrial, automotive, high flow V, etc)

thank you, very informative


yeah, i understand, i'm just curious. anyway, i have the eebd and the regulator with flowmeter and without the possibility to adjust the pressure, so in my case it won't work, and the mask isn't shipped to my country

Well if you are in Europe, India (which where I got an LDV from)...I would imagine one could obtain a full scba system.
One would need to check out fire fighting groups as a possible source. They are always getting rid of used equipment.
Well since you know about TIG welding...there are regulators available that allow for micro control of the flow.

 

[outrider567]

Outrider567, have you tested the purity of the Nitrogen gas?
There has been some thought that the purity varies greatly.
My thoughts were that it usually is around 99% in most cases. Its just the number of 9s past this where different grades come into play.
Is there a particular grade & tank size one should ask for? I thought regular Industrial would work fine. This is regards to SCBA method.

I'm not familiar with the SCBA method--The company that I bought the Nitrogen Tank from said they are not allowed to sell it to anybody unless the purity is 99.0%(and since my Oxygen Level plummeted from 98 to 40 after just 5 or 6 breaths confirms this)--Greenberg said 450 Liter tank is enough(25 LPM at 15 minute mark is 375 Liters), but my own tank is much larger than that

 

[youareforgiven]

Hi,

I have a question. I have the 8l 1,5m3 150 bar nitrogen tank with the EEBD and Europe kit regulator from esc…. I see the company does not exist anymore (is this kit/regulator still safe??!)

I was testing the kit at 15lpm. What I noticed when i opened up the valve is that a lot of nitrogen is being lost and the more I opened the valve the more nitrogen went away. Pressure went up to 500 bar.

can anybody explain how open I have to set the valve and what bar should it be?

I made a video if needed.

 

[limeoctave]

Well if you are in Europe, India (which where I got an LDV from)...I would imagine one could obtain a full scba system.
One would need to check out fire fighting groups as a possible source. They are always getting rid of used equipment.

yeah, i'd like to upgrade to scba, i just don't have enough money, and time to research it, and energy actually, but anyway, thank you a lot

Well since you know about TIG welding...there are regulators available that allow for micro control of the flow.

what regulators do you mean? that allows to adjust the needed pressure and not the flow?

---

Hi,

I have a question. I have the 8l 1,5m3 150 bar nitrogen tank with the EEBD and Europe kit regulator from esc…. I see the company does not exist anymore (is this kit/regulator still safe??!)

I was testing the kit at 15lpm. What I noticed when i opened up the valve is that a lot of nitrogen is being lost and the more I opened the valve the more nitrogen went away. Pressure went up to 500 bar.

can anybody explain how open I have to set the valve and what bar should it be?

I made a video if needed.

hi,
what type of regulator do you have? with flowmeter? or pressure gauge?

sorry, i just don't really understand how you're controlling the pressure/flow

firstly, you should close the valve on the regulator, then fully open the valve on the tank, then open the valve on the regulator according to the pressure gauge/flowmeter. i don't know what pressure is equal to 15 lpm

 

[devils~advocate]

yeah, i'd like to upgrade to scba, i just don't have enough money, and time to research it, and energy actually, but anyway, thank you a lot


what regulators do you mean? that allows to adjust the needed pressure and not the flow?

Well I would say that the regulator needs to be able to handle the pressure that the cylinder has.
In the USA, cylinders of nitrogen are about 2200 psi (pounds per square inch) or about 150 bar.
This photo below is of a regulator made for a nitrogen cylinder. I believe this one is made for brewing beer.
It has a gauge for the cylinder tank pressure (maximum 3000 psi / 200+ bar).
And a gauge for the out put (maximum 100 psi / 700 kPa),

From what I have seen from the manufacturer data on the SCBA system, the pressure range output from the regulator to the LDV is about 87-130 psi.

Controlling the flow is something based on outlet size etc.....it can get complicated.
One would have to find data on the regulator about the flow rates etc.







There are other regulators for C02/Argon that have a flowmeter on them. They will work with nitrogen or helium cylinders (cga-580)
Most seem to go to about 60cfh max (or 30 L/m)....I just dont know if they would work with a LDV.




Major Manufacturer SCBA Data

 

[Amish]

Can a bottle of Helium >95% pure according to the seller work for the EB method?

It's sold to inflate balloons, so I think it's okay, no?

 

[youareforgiven]

yeah, i'd like to upgrade to scba, i just don't have enough money, and time to research it, and energy actually, but anyway, thank you a lot


what regulators do you mean? that allows to adjust the needed pressure and not the flow?

---

hi,
what type of regulator do you have? with flowmeter? or pressure gauge?

sorry, i just don't really understand how you're controlling the pressure/flow

firstly, you should close the valve on the regulator, then fully open the valve on the tank, then open the valve on the regulator according to the pressure gauge/flowmeter. i don't know what pressure is equal to 15 lpm

Hi!

I have the one visable in the picture. If i connect it to my nitrogen and put it open, the a loud noise comes from it and I feel nitrogen escaping. That's why I am not trusting my set up. Is this normal and to what psi should it be set?

Thanks for the responds.

 

[Kapsyl]

Hi!

I have the one visable in the picture. If i connect it to my nitrogen and put it open, the a loud noise comes from it and I feel nitrogen escaping. That's why I am not trusting my set up. Is this normal and to what psi should it be set?

Thanks for the responds. View attachment 143113

What you have there is a simple click style operated regulator/flowmeter. You set the desired L/pm using the dial on the left (it's currently set to 15/lpm). The gauge on the right is a pressure gauge, which shows the current pressure in the tank when fitted. This isn't something you adjust, it simply tells you how much pressure is left in the tank (like a fuel gauge).

Since you all ready have it set at 15/lpm, it's going to deliver nitrogen as soon as you turn on the gas. If you dial it down to zero or off it should not make any sounds.

How high does it go, is 15/lpm the max output?

 

[youareforgiven]

What you have there is a simple click style operated regulator/flowmeter. You set the desired L/pm using the dial on the left (it's currently set to 15/lpm). The gauge on the right is a pressure gauge, which shows the current pressure in the tank when fitted. This isn't something you adjust, it simply tells you how much pressure is left in the tank (like a fuel gauge).

Since you all ready have it set at 15/lpm, it's going to deliver nitrogen as soon as you turn on the gas. If you dial it down to zero or off it should not make any sounds.

How high does it go, is 15/lpm the max output?

Thanks for the responds! Okay is this a safe regulator you think?

Okay i made a video. You can see that it is going empty ver quickly. I feel air/nitrogen coming from the connection. See second picture. Could it be that it here is the problem?

It goes to 25 lpm.

Kind regards,

 

[Kapsyl]

Thanks for the responds! Okay is this a safe regulator you think?

Okay i made a video. You can see that it is going empty ver quickly. I feel air/nitrogen coming from the connection. See second picture. Could it be that it here is the problem?

It goes to 25 lpm.

Kind regards,

Yea that's leaking like crazy, when set to zero on the flowmeter it shouldn't make any sounds at all, when set to 15/lpm in your case it should only be a small hiss and nitrogen only coming from the attached hose. Something is definitely wrong and shouldn't be use until this issue is fixed.

I haven't dealt with such a connection so maybe someone else could chip in?

But have you used a wrench to tighten down the connection onto the cylinder? Some lubricant could also be used to make the oring more effective but only a small amount on the oring nothing else.

An adjustable wrench is what is commonly used to tighten down the connection.

 

[devils~advocate]

Thanks for the responds! Okay is this a safe regulator you think?

Okay i made a video. You can see that it is going empty ver quickly. I feel air/nitrogen coming from the connection. See second picture. Could it be that it here is the problem?

It goes to 25 lpm.

Kind regards,

Ive seen these types of regulators used for the hood method. I think it was sold in a kit for this purpose a few years ago but came from a brewing equipment website.

If you turn the regulator off using the black knob on the left side (turn down to 0)........No gas should be coming out of the hose...Can you tell where the gas is escaping from?
Is it from the regulator itself or at the cylinder connection?
If is the regulator itself, I'd say it is toast.
If its at the connection to the cylinder, it can be tightened as what Kapsy above suggests, otherwise I'd say it is toast as well.
(You can use liquid thread sealant that is meant for high pressure pneumatic applications. But I'd say that would be for small or almost unnoticeable leaks at the threads.)

 

[kudaphillips]

No
99% or higher is what's recommended .
Better chance of failure when you go under this

Can a bottle of Helium >95% pure according to the seller work for the EB method?

It's sold to inflate balloons, so I think it's okay, no?