Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Placo]

I found a way to make this method work partially without the need for a lot of equipment, in this post I explain how to do it, it doesn't guarantee the same purity of gas as a more elaborate method but I'm satisfied, for me it's a good compromise.

Unfortunately I have to give some bad news, even the helium cylinders sold in Europe is not true that they are 100% pure, I noticed this from the fact that I still had hypercapnia, so having hypercapnia is because oxygen is present which in turn with metabolism produces CO2, I would dare to say that they are at 50/50, they study them all to make our lives difficult but I still have a plan B even if it's off topic to talk about it here.

I think nitrogen cylinders are definitely more reliable, but if I buy one, is a pressure reducer necessary? Can't I just let the air go into a plastic bag and then put it over my head like I planned with the helium tank? Would the pressure be so strong that it would break the bag? It seems there is a valve, maybe the pressure can be adjusted from there.

 

[devils~advocate]

I think nitrogen cylinders are definitely more reliable, but if I buy one, is a pressure reducer necessary? Can't I just let the air go into a plastic bag and then put it over my head like I planned with the helium tank? Would the pressure be so strong that it would break the bag? It seems there is a valve, maybe the pressure can be adjusted from there.

Yes a regulator (reducer) would be needed to reduce the pressure down to something manageable.
It also provides a way of being a sort of adapter as well btwn the tank and hose.
The tanks require a specific connection & typically only regulators fit these anyway.
This thread goes into specifics about this.

 

[Placo]

Yes a regulator (reducer) would be needed to reduce the pressure down to something manageable.
It also provides a way of being a sort of adapter as well btwn the tank and hose.
The tanks require a specific connection & typically only regulators fit these anyway.
This thread goes into specifics about this.

View attachment 142141

So there's no question of using it without a depressurizer? Too risky?

Unfortunately I have to give some bad news, even the helium cylinders sold in Europe is not true that they are 100% pure, I noticed this from the fact that I still had hypercapnia, so having hypercapnia is because oxygen is present which in turn with metabolism produces CO2, I would dare to say that they are at 50/50, they study them all to make our lives difficult but I still have a plan B even if it's off topic to talk about it here.

I think nitrogen cylinders are definitely more reliable, but if I buy one, is a pressure reducer necessary? Can't I just let the air go into a plastic bag and then put it over my head like I planned with the helium tank? Would the pressure be so strong that it would break the bag? It seems there is a valve, maybe the pressure can be adjusted from there.

However, thinking about it, perhaps the purity of 50% is a bit low estimate, if it was mixed with 50% helium and 50% oxygen the balloons wouldn't even take flight while in the reviews people complain that they deflate easily and that there is little gas in the tank but not much about balloons which don't take flight, 100% helium obviously not even, at this point I would say something like 80% helium and 20% air, in short more or less these percentages but still with helium in the majority, I don't know whether to implement it in my method anyway or not, I would swear to having seen my hand cyanotic yesterday for a moment so even if we are not 100% the percentage is higher than 50%.

 

[devils~advocate]

So there's no question of using it without a depressurizer? Too risky?

However, thinking about it, perhaps the purity of 50% is a bit low estimate, if it was mixed with 50% helium and 50% oxygen the balloons wouldn't even take flight while in the reviews people complain that they deflate easily and that there is little gas in the tank but not much about balloons which don't take flight, 100% helium obviously not even, at this point I would say something like 80% helium and 20% air, in short more or less these percentages but still with helium in the majority, I don't know whether to implement it in my method anyway or not, I would swear to having seen my hand cyanotic yesterday for a moment so even if we are not 100% the percentage is higher than 50%.

Yes, inert gas tanks are all under pressure.....at least 2000 psi (140 bar). The gases are compressed in the tanks and at normal atmospheric pressure, they would fill a much larger area (i.e. 80 cubic feet or 3 cubic meters, etc etc)
The regulator brings that pressure down to a workable level in the trades that they are used in.
Helium in tanks would be pressurized as well. It was my initial method 20 years ago when I started thinking about all this.
I got a large tank of helium at the time....still have it.
The process is still the same as any other inert gas used....to displace oxygen.

Some have mentioned using an oxygen meter to test if a setup would work well or not. These are available to purchase.
Letting some of the gas flow to the setup one has and then measuring the oxygen levels.
I dont remember the recommended results to look for, but this thread might have it.

You seem to be discussing the 'Hood' method. Actually helium was the gas suggested by the author that wrote a book about the topic.
I dont see why it wouldnt work fine. His suggestion was to use helium for balloons...the small tanks are sold at party supply stores and other places.
For effectiveness, keeping the gas from escaping the hood is most important. So the manufacture of the hood is the most crucial part.

 

[heavenplzhelp77]

Yes, inert gas tanks are all under pressure.....at least 2000 psi (140 bar). The gases are compressed in the tanks and at normal atmospheric pressure, they would fill a much larger area (i.e. 80 cubic feet or 3 cubic meters, etc etc)
The regulator brings that pressure down to a workable level in the trades that they are used in.
Helium in tanks would be pressurized as well. It was my initial method 20 years ago when I started thinking about all this.
I got a large tank of helium at the time....still have it.
The process is still the same as any other inert gas used....to displace oxygen.

Some have mentioned using an oxygen meter to test if a setup would work well or not. These are available to purchase.
Letting some of the gas flow to the setup one has and then measuring the oxygen levels.
I dont remember the recommended results to look for, but this thread might have it.

You seem to be discussing the 'Hood' method. Actually helium was the gas suggested by the author that wrote a book about the topic.
I dont see why it wouldnt work fine. His suggestion was to use helium for balloons...the small tanks are sold at party supply stores and other places.
For effectiveness, keeping the gas from escaping the hood is most important. So the manufacture of the hood is the most crucial part.

Speaking of helium tanks the ones made for filling balloons are under a lower pressure than needed for ctb like the helium balloon filling system is 28 bar and has 7 liters So that's much lower than what's needed right?! So do I definitely need a bigger tank to use? What's the real necessary number is it 600 liters overall

 

[devils~advocate]

Speaking of helium tanks the ones made for filling balloons are under a lower pressure than needed for ctb like the helium balloon filling system is 28 bar and has 7 liters So that's much lower than what's needed right?! So do I definitely need a bigger tank to use? What's the real necessary number is it 600 liters overall

Yep thats what I remember as well that they are lower pressures. Actually in the book, it just shows one of those balloon tank (or maybe it was two in series) with hose to a hood setup.
The recommended flow that has been discussed in this forums (and in the book) is 15 L/m....and time needed, which is about 15-20 minutes at least.
Thats about 300 L minimum....but my thoughts is to have more than needed just in case of leaks, etc.

(Btw, I know helium is used for slaughtering pigs in the meat industry, especially I think in the EU.
There are videos on YT that show this in Germany. The pigs don't even know what is happening.
Im not sure if the links can be posted.)

 

[Placo]

Nothing to do, helium is apparently expensive and it is convenient for the producers to sell you as little of it as possible by mixing it with normal air I imagine, if you are thinking of buying a cylinder of helium for balloons for this method, know that it will almost certainly not be pure.

 

[devils~advocate]

Nothing to do, helium is apparently expensive and it is convenient for the producers to sell you as little of it as possible by mixing it with normal air I imagine, if you are thinking of buying a cylinder of helium for balloons for this method, know that it will almost certainly not be pure.

Yes helium for balloons will probably be mixed with air etc. It can be tested to verify though.
But the helium used for certain trades, it is pure. It has to be due to requirements for certain industrial applications.

 

[devils~advocate]

Nothing to do, helium is apparently expensive and it is convenient for the producers to sell you as little of it as possible by mixing it with normal air I imagine, if you are thinking of buying a cylinder of helium for balloons for this method, know that it will almost certainly not be pure.

Helium for trades is in pressurized tanks like other inert gases.
Trades such as welding use this and other inert gases.
These trades get these gases everyday from retail shops that sell them. It is a common daily activity.
Any of it (gases, regulators, etc) can be obtained fairly easily by anyone. You do not have to be a trades person to obtain it.
The cost might be higher than one might expect.
This is because the tank itself is more expensive item. The gas itself is inexpensive.
Total cost might cost around €250 for a 80 cf or 2.2 cubic meter tank and a regulator.

 

[k1w1]

What's in Peru? Euthanasia ? Or N?

N

I bought one of those gym backpacks but unfortunately it lets the air through, at this point I'm wondering what I can invent for the helium without having to buy too much equipment.

I could buy the balloons and then inflate them and explode them in a plastic bag and then put it in so I'm sure there is a good percentage of helium, or inflate the bag directly with helium as if it were a balloon and then put it in, the helium should being lighter than air while CO2 is heavier so by keeping the bag in the right position I shouldn't lose large quantities before placing it.

I'm sure the bag doesn't let air pass through, I've already done experiments, one thing I wonder is if breathing helium CO2 is produced by the body anyway, I know it's produced by oxygen but if one inhales air which is mainly composed of helium and nitrogen, would it be produced anyway? So I could tie the bag tightly around my neck to prevent gas from escaping and at the same time not feel the effects of the rising CO2.

I just asked Google's AI and it responded like this:


Good news I'd say.

why not just make an exit bag or buy a hood from China, there is a well trodden path for this method in this thread that has meandered lately. Check the user set up pics. Its very simple and not at all expensive.

 

[heavenplzhelp77]

Yep thats what I remember as well that they are lower pressures. Actually in the book, it just shows one of those balloon tank (or maybe it was two in series) with hose to a hood setup.
The recommended flow that has been discussed in this forums (and in the book) is 15 L/m....and time needed, which is about 15-20 minutes at least.
Thats about 300 L minimum....but my thoughts is to have more than needed just in case of leaks, etc.

(Btw, I know helium is used for slaughtering pigs in the meat industry, especially I think in the EU.
There are videos on YT that show this in Germany. The pigs don't even know what is happening.
Im not sure if the links can be posted.)

How hard is it to connect the regulator with a eebd mask? I mean why does everybody keep talking about leakage how hard can it be to pull that together and ensure it's done right! by the way straps and stuff are just an unnecessary addition right

 

[devils~advocate]

How hard is it to connect the regulator with a eebd mask? I mean why does everybody keep talking about leakage how hard can it be to pull that together and ensure it's done right! by the way straps and stuff are just an unnecessary addition right

Not hard at all. Some regulators come with an outlet that is a barb connection. A hose or tubing is pushed over the barb.
One can also use a hose clamp at the intersection to ensure a tight fit.

Then the tubing goes to a hood or whatever the system.

There will be leakage of some sort, since the hood method is a constant flow system.
The breathe exhaust and excess gas have to go somewhere since new gas is entering the hood.
For a hood, I think the idea is for the exhaust/excess to flow out to a remote part of the hood.
New gas should be introduced close to breathe intake.

The idea of the hood is to try to keep new gas close to breathe intake & keep away regular air (thus O2) away as much as possible,

 

[suffering_mo]

There's a ton of people who left timer messages saying Theyr exiting and never posted again. The gurus who have contributed a lot to this thread like vizzy, gasmonkey , etc likely gone .
If you scroll up, there seems to be an example of permanent injury from a failure…but note this failure did not follow the appropriate accepted protocol, not even close

So we have examples of people succeeding with pretty high tech setups, mostly with SCBA, SCUBA, and Vizzy with the hood but what about with exit bags? Any CTBs with Hoods besides Vizzy?

 

[Kapsyl]

So we have examples of people succeeding with pretty high tech setups, mostly with SCBA, SCUBA, and Vizzy with the hood but what about with exit bags? Any CTBs with Hoods besides Vizzy?

Exit bag is Nitschke bread and butter, he pioneered the method and swears by it. It's the most researched of the inert methods and I've read about successful ctbs with them. But ever since the easily obtained high purity helium disappeared the popularity has dropped, people now choose more advanced setups with nitrogen instead.

The thing with exit bag was that it was easily obtained, before the helium shortage. You could buy everything in one day and successfully ctb the same evening. Now with mostly nitrogen available exit bag isn't the best choice since I believe helium works better in that kinda setup.

Read this tread, there's at least two exit bags users who I believe ctb. Not everyone chooses to acknowledge their departure.

Inert gas setups gallery. Show your setup

Just ratchet straps/tie-down straps that you can get in most hardware stores: . And you tighten it after you adjust the mask or is it preset?

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[suffering_mo]

Exit bag is Nitschke bread and butter, he pioneered the method and swears by it. It's the most researched of the inert methods and I've read about successful ctbs with them. But ever since the easily obtained high purity helium disappeared the popularity has dropped, people now choose more advanced setups with nitrogen instead.

The thing with exit bag was that it was easily obtained, before the helium shortage. You could buy everything in one day and successfully ctb the same evening. Now with mostly nitrogen available exit bag isn't the best choice since I believe helium works better in that kinda setup.

Read this tread, there's at least two exit bags users who I believe ctb. Not everyone chooses to acknowledge their departure.

Inert gas setups gallery. Show your setup

Just ratchet straps/tie-down straps that you can get in most hardware stores: . And you tighten it after you adjust the mask or is it preset?

sanctioned-suicide.net

Ahhh, I see. So with nitrogen, it's more critical that there are no leaks at all versus with helium, it was less of an issue?

 

[Kapsyl]

Ahhh, I see. So with nitrogen, it's more critical that there are no leaks at all versus with helium, it was less of an issue?

The helium has the advantage that it's lighter than air, so sitting vertically with a bag full of helium, it isn't keen on escaping downwards. Nitrogen which is almost the same as air easily blends with the oxygen and isn't as forgiving as helium.

I don't really have any scientific proof of this but it makes sense in my mind.

 

[suffering_mo]

Ah I see....I was wondering how it would be possible to close all those gaps with the exit bag, with the tubes sticking out the bottom.... wouldn't seem very air tight. Your theory makes sense.

 

[suffering_mo]

Are you looking at a hood from one of the Chinese websites, like in Vizzy's EEBD hood guide? He ctb'd with those yellow EEBD hoods.
View attachment 131301
Are you worried about the nitrogen/inert gas escaping out the fabric?
Both the inner mask and hood itself will be full of nitrogen. Any oxygen initially in the hood will be pushed out by the nitrogen.
Once you pass out, the inner mask will still be snugly against your mouth.
See pics of hood inner masks:

Chinese Alibaba hood:
View attachment 131306View attachment 131305

Draeger CF:
View attachment 131307View attachment 131308

Scott ELSA:
View attachment 131309

@Tears in Rain and anyone else.....How are these inner pieces of the hoods held on tight onto the face to keep any oxygen out and give a good "seal" like what is needed for nitrogen?

 

[limeoctave]

@Tears in Rain and anyone else.....How are these inner pieces of the hoods held on tight onto the face to keep any oxygen out and give a good "seal" like what is needed for nitrogen?

the draeger cf has elastic inside, it forces mask to the face, you can see it on the photo, don't know about other hoods, i have this one. and anyway it can't be tight because there are holes in the mask to let the nitrogen flow into the hood, and i guess some exhaled air can go there too, don't know how significant it is

and the neck elastic prevents the air to get inside

 

[suffering_mo]

@limeoctave Have you tested yours out yet?

 

[limeoctave]

@limeoctave Have you tested yours out yet?

only without nitrogen, just put it on

and to addition to my previous reply, there's exhalation valve in the hood ofc

@limeoctave Have you tested yours out yet?

as i remember @outrider567 made some tests with hood

 

[suffering_mo]

Ya I dunno. It prob would work but exit bag still is the winner for me . I have. Scuba setup that should be complete today, but I doubt I'll even use it because I get drenched with sweat during the process ( not sure if it's an anxiety si sweat or involuntary nervous system reaction to low oxygen ) and whenever I've worn masks sweat makes the mask slide off /really effects the air tight seal .

@kudaphillips What kind of mask did you have for SCUBA? So was that like $600 down the drain?

One of my concerns with investing in this method with hood or SCUBA is that it's going fail.

 

[Placo]

I asked the AI out of curiosity and it told me that even the least expensive cylinders, namely the disposable ones for parties, still have a helium percentage between 80 and 90, I thought even less to be honest.

 

[suffering_mo]

I finally found an US-based EEBD hood seller. Should be coming in within two weeks. In the meantime, did some more practice runs to continue to get comfortable with the whole process. On my last practice run I decided to go for a real trial. I set the flow at 30 LPM, had the 3M hood on my forehead filling with gas, hyperventilated for a minute or so, took a final big exhale, and inserted my whole face in the hood.

I didn't have any issues breathing, no pain or discomfort again, but this time I actually got lightheaded (like I was getting high) and felt tingles. The blood oxygen levels were dropping slower than usual, but I didn't hyperventilate/suffocate/panic this time around. I guess increasing the flow rate and emptying my lungs help purge the CO2 better so I didn't experience that panic.

I'm still choosing to use the EEBD hood over the 3M when it gets here since the EEBD hood is a full mask that wraps around the neck instead of the 3M which only wraps around the face, and the EEBD has the exhalation valve to my CO2 purging a simpler process. At least I know the 3M hood may not be a bad backup.

Oh, and I tested out the sandblasting hood as a possible alternative since it does have an air intake and exhalation valve. It was not viable. Would not recommend.

Anyone know why the 3M Elsa hood didn't work for this guy? Doesn't look like he's around anymore.

Posting on this thread because there's not much activity, etc on the SCUBA thread. Does anyone know if the 2 piece adapters that are needed for SCUBA (125997, 125998) fit together properly and to the regulator and tank?

 

[Placo]

I asked the AI out of curiosity and it told me that even the least expensive cylinders, namely the disposable ones for parties, still have a helium percentage between 80 and 90, I thought even less to be honest.

The tank is already finished anyway, I generally advise against taking one of those helium tanks to inflate balloons, however I don't think I'll use the method in this topic because I live with my family and I can't attract suspicion, as I was saying, I already took a risk with the tank for balloons, I'll end up with brutal hypercapnia, which is not that brutal because I read that once a certain limit is exceeded the feeling of panic vanishes and the CO2 begins to have a narcotic effect.

 

[jiaaa_02]

Hi all, I've been following this thread for a while now and am contemplating a couple of methodologies based on equipment available to me. At the moment, I have the following:

1. 2x 220L nitrogen tanks with regulator and flow meter that goes up to 12lpm
2. Plastic drawstring bag (thick, good size for my head)
3. Duct tape
4. Oximeter
5. Equipment for a CO method, including gas stoves, briquettes, CO gauge

I understand that you typically need 600L to allow for flexibility as well as a flow rate of 15lpm, but I was only able to procure the above in my locale. Would it be a recipe for failure if I set up two nitrogen tanks at 10-12pm each? I want to be careful about accidentally blowing up the bag due to too much flow. I also plan to directly have the hose close to my nose so that my first breath inside the bag is simply nitrogen.

I would appreciate any critiques of the method so that I can get this foolproof.

On a side note, what would be the logistical downside of coupling both the CO and nitrogen methods? I presume CO in the room around me would help induce hypoxia and if one doesn't cause ctb, the other will.

 

[devils~advocate]

I wonder if a high flow nasal cannula with a mouth guard (that is made to circumvent mouth breathing) would work with a hood?
The high flow cannula is made for up to 60 lpm. A regular nasal cannula can do 4-6 lpm.
Normal breathing is about 0.5L per breath at a rate of 12-20 times per minute, which is about 6-10 lpm.

 

[limeoctave]

I wonder if a high flow nasal cannula with a mouth guard (that is made to circumvent mouth breathing) would work with a hood?
The high flow cannula is made for up to 60 lpm. A regular nasal cannula can do 4-6 lpm.
Normal breathing is about 0.5L per breath at a rate of 12-20 times per minute, which is about 6-10 lpm.
View attachment 142377

can you describe in more detail how it should work?

 

[Kapsyl]

I wonder if a high flow nasal cannula with a mouth guard (that is made to circumvent mouth breathing) would work with a hood?
The high flow cannula is made for up to 60 lpm. A regular nasal cannula can do 4-6 lpm.
Normal breathing is about 0.5L per breath at a rate of 12-20 times per minute, which is about 6-10 lpm.
View attachment 142377

How would it benefit from using the regular inner mask of the hood? Or are you referring to the exit bag?

I can tell from experience from using a closed constant flow setup that 10/lpm is not nearly enough, even with shallow breath 25/lpm was just enough to feel comfortable 30-35/lpm is what I'm going to use most likely.

 

[devils~advocate]

Yes, with a exit bag setup I suppose. Just trying to be efficient with the gas usage and point of discharge.
With the cannula it could be delivered straight to the point of intake.
There are high flow nasal cannula that can deliver up to 60 lpm. Then the idea is to limit the ability to mouth breath with a mouth guard device that would inhibit that from happening...rebreathing CO2. (They are used for people who tend to sleep and breath thru their mouths.)

The mouth device may be a non-issue, since exhaust breath would also have inert gas as well.
Just thinking about ideas for those that plan on an exit bag or hood with constant flow system.

I think though the limiting factor is the regulator for the gas flow. The flow meters on them tend to top out at about 60 scfh which is about 30 l/m.
I guess the other limiting factor is the size of the inert gas tank. It has to be big enough to deliver 20-30 l/m for 15-20 minutes.