Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[devils~advocate]

oh i see, thank you. so it works similar to TIG gas welding, when you did setup needed pressure on regulator and then it holds it, and only opens when you press the button, but here it opens when you inhale

Yes kind of like that. TIG would have an electronic switch (foot or finger) that would open a solenoid valve.
This LDV is all mechanical and seems to be balanced with inhale of breathe to open the valve.
Its like the mouthpiece used for scuba diving. But like scuba, this system would also need a regulator/reducer to bring that pressure down.

The scba system that Gas Monkey discusses has its own regulator (called a reducer in that industry, fire fighting) that brings the pressure down to a certain level without the need of adjustments or knobs etc.

This system that k1w1 describes, doesnt have that reducer included with it. But one could use a reducer from any the scba manuf. I think they are all compatible with each other. The image I have in the post above, is a possible work-around for this reducer...to just use a conventional regulator. It just has to be one that has the connection to the cylinder tank and its capable of at least 100 psi (note some only go up to 60 psi or so).
This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.

 

[limeoctave]

Yes kind of like that. TIG would have an electronic switch (foot or finger) that would open a solenoid valve.
This LDV is all mechanical and seems to be balanced with inhale of breathe to open the valve.
Its like the mouthpiece used for scuba diving. But like scuba, this system would also need a regulator/reducer to bring that pressure down.

The scba system that Gas Monkey discusses has its own regulator (called a reducer in that industry, fire fighting) that brings the pressure down to a certain level without the need of adjustments or knobs etc.

This system that k1w1 describes, doesnt have that reducer included with it. But one could use a reducer from any the scba manuf. I think they are all compatible with each other. The image I have in the post above, is a possible work-around for this reducer...to just use a conventional regulator. It just has to be one that has the connection to the cylinder tank and its capable of at least 100 psi (note some only go up to 60 psi or so).
This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.

thank you, very informative

This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.

yeah, i understand, i'm just curious. anyway, i have the eebd hood and the regulator with flowmeter and without the possibility to adjust the pressure, so in my case it won't work, and the mask isn't shipped to my country

 

[devils~advocate]

The shiny metal part on the right hand side of the black wheel, is the 'reducer' or regulator for a scba system.
It brings the pressure from the cylinder down from 2200 psi to around 100 psi.
Then from there the hose from the LDV is connected to it.


Some of the LDVs have their hose directly connected to this reducer.
While other LDVs (newer ones) have this kind of quick connection at the end that allows one to attach or unattach the hose line quickly.
I think the quick connection is the V style. Ive tested it and this appears to be the case. (background info: there are several styles of quick-connect parts...industrial, automotive, high flow V, etc)

thank you, very informative


yeah, i understand, i'm just curious. anyway, i have the eebd and the regulator with flowmeter and without the possibility to adjust the pressure, so in my case it won't work, and the mask isn't shipped to my country

Well if you are in Europe, India (which where I got an LDV from)...I would imagine one could obtain a full scba system.
One would need to check out fire fighting groups as a possible source. They are always getting rid of used equipment.
Well since you know about TIG welding...there are regulators available that allow for micro control of the flow.

 

[outrider567]

Outrider567, have you tested the purity of the Nitrogen gas?
There has been some thought that the purity varies greatly.
My thoughts were that it usually is around 99% in most cases. Its just the number of 9s past this where different grades come into play.
Is there a particular grade & tank size one should ask for? I thought regular Industrial would work fine. This is regards to SCBA method.

I'm not familiar with the SCBA method--The company that I bought the Nitrogen Tank from said they are not allowed to sell it to anybody unless the purity is 99.0%(and since my Oxygen Level plummeted from 98 to 40 after just 5 or 6 breaths confirms this)--Greenberg said 450 Liter tank is enough(25 LPM at 15 minute mark is 375 Liters), but my own tank is much larger than that

 

[youareforgiven]

Hi,

I have a question. I have the 8l 1,5m3 150 bar nitrogen tank with the EEBD and Europe kit regulator from esc…. I see the company does not exist anymore (is this kit/regulator still safe??!)

I was testing the kit at 15lpm. What I noticed when i opened up the valve is that a lot of nitrogen is being lost and the more I opened the valve the more nitrogen went away. Pressure went up to 500 bar.

can anybody explain how open I have to set the valve and what bar should it be?

I made a video if needed.

 

[limeoctave]

Well if you are in Europe, India (which where I got an LDV from)...I would imagine one could obtain a full scba system.
One would need to check out fire fighting groups as a possible source. They are always getting rid of used equipment.

yeah, i'd like to upgrade to scba, i just don't have enough money, and time to research it, and energy actually, but anyway, thank you a lot

Well since you know about TIG welding...there are regulators available that allow for micro control of the flow.

what regulators do you mean? that allows to adjust the needed pressure and not the flow?

---

Hi,

I have a question. I have the 8l 1,5m3 150 bar nitrogen tank with the EEBD and Europe kit regulator from esc…. I see the company does not exist anymore (is this kit/regulator still safe??!)

I was testing the kit at 15lpm. What I noticed when i opened up the valve is that a lot of nitrogen is being lost and the more I opened the valve the more nitrogen went away. Pressure went up to 500 bar.

can anybody explain how open I have to set the valve and what bar should it be?

I made a video if needed.

hi,
what type of regulator do you have? with flowmeter? or pressure gauge?

sorry, i just don't really understand how you're controlling the pressure/flow

firstly, you should close the valve on the regulator, then fully open the valve on the tank, then open the valve on the regulator according to the pressure gauge/flowmeter. i don't know what pressure is equal to 15 lpm

 

[devils~advocate]

yeah, i'd like to upgrade to scba, i just don't have enough money, and time to research it, and energy actually, but anyway, thank you a lot


what regulators do you mean? that allows to adjust the needed pressure and not the flow?

Well I would say that the regulator needs to be able to handle the pressure that the cylinder has.
In the USA, cylinders of nitrogen are about 2200 psi (pounds per square inch) or about 150 bar.
This photo below is of a regulator made for a nitrogen cylinder. I believe this one is made for brewing beer.
It has a gauge for the cylinder tank pressure (maximum 3000 psi / 200+ bar).
And a gauge for the out put (maximum 100 psi / 700 kPa),

From what I have seen from the manufacturer data on the SCBA system, the pressure range output from the regulator to the LDV is about 87-130 psi.

Controlling the flow is something based on outlet size etc.....it can get complicated.
One would have to find data on the regulator about the flow rates etc.







There are other regulators for C02/Argon that have a flowmeter on them. They will work with nitrogen or helium cylinders (cga-580)
Most seem to go to about 60cfh max (or 30 L/m)....I just dont know if they would work with a LDV.




Major Manufacturer SCBA Data

 

[Amish]

Can a bottle of Helium >95% pure according to the seller work for the EB method?

It's sold to inflate balloons, so I think it's okay, no?

 

[youareforgiven]

yeah, i'd like to upgrade to scba, i just don't have enough money, and time to research it, and energy actually, but anyway, thank you a lot


what regulators do you mean? that allows to adjust the needed pressure and not the flow?

---

hi,
what type of regulator do you have? with flowmeter? or pressure gauge?

sorry, i just don't really understand how you're controlling the pressure/flow

firstly, you should close the valve on the regulator, then fully open the valve on the tank, then open the valve on the regulator according to the pressure gauge/flowmeter. i don't know what pressure is equal to 15 lpm

Hi!

I have the one visable in the picture. If i connect it to my nitrogen and put it open, the a loud noise comes from it and I feel nitrogen escaping. That's why I am not trusting my set up. Is this normal and to what psi should it be set?

Thanks for the responds.

 

[Kapsyl]

Hi!

I have the one visable in the picture. If i connect it to my nitrogen and put it open, the a loud noise comes from it and I feel nitrogen escaping. That's why I am not trusting my set up. Is this normal and to what psi should it be set?

Thanks for the responds. View attachment 143113

What you have there is a simple click style operated regulator/flowmeter. You set the desired L/pm using the dial on the left (it's currently set to 15/lpm). The gauge on the right is a pressure gauge, which shows the current pressure in the tank when fitted. This isn't something you adjust, it simply tells you how much pressure is left in the tank (like a fuel gauge).

Since you all ready have it set at 15/lpm, it's going to deliver nitrogen as soon as you turn on the gas. If you dial it down to zero or off it should not make any sounds.

How high does it go, is 15/lpm the max output?

 

[youareforgiven]

What you have there is a simple click style operated regulator/flowmeter. You set the desired L/pm using the dial on the left (it's currently set to 15/lpm). The gauge on the right is a pressure gauge, which shows the current pressure in the tank when fitted. This isn't something you adjust, it simply tells you how much pressure is left in the tank (like a fuel gauge).

Since you all ready have it set at 15/lpm, it's going to deliver nitrogen as soon as you turn on the gas. If you dial it down to zero or off it should not make any sounds.

How high does it go, is 15/lpm the max output?

Thanks for the responds! Okay is this a safe regulator you think?

Okay i made a video. You can see that it is going empty ver quickly. I feel air/nitrogen coming from the connection. See second picture. Could it be that it here is the problem?

It goes to 25 lpm.

Kind regards,

 

[Kapsyl]

Thanks for the responds! Okay is this a safe regulator you think?

Okay i made a video. You can see that it is going empty ver quickly. I feel air/nitrogen coming from the connection. See second picture. Could it be that it here is the problem?

It goes to 25 lpm.

Kind regards,

Yea that's leaking like crazy, when set to zero on the flowmeter it shouldn't make any sounds at all, when set to 15/lpm in your case it should only be a small hiss and nitrogen only coming from the attached hose. Something is definitely wrong and shouldn't be use until this issue is fixed.

I haven't dealt with such a connection so maybe someone else could chip in?

But have you used a wrench to tighten down the connection onto the cylinder? Some lubricant could also be used to make the oring more effective but only a small amount on the oring nothing else.

An adjustable wrench is what is commonly used to tighten down the connection.

 

[devils~advocate]

Thanks for the responds! Okay is this a safe regulator you think?

Okay i made a video. You can see that it is going empty ver quickly. I feel air/nitrogen coming from the connection. See second picture. Could it be that it here is the problem?

It goes to 25 lpm.

Kind regards,

Ive seen these types of regulators used for the hood method. I think it was sold in a kit for this purpose a few years ago but came from a brewing equipment website.

If you turn the regulator off using the black knob on the left side (turn down to 0)........No gas should be coming out of the hose...Can you tell where the gas is escaping from?
Is it from the regulator itself or at the cylinder connection?
If is the regulator itself, I'd say it is toast.
If its at the connection to the cylinder, it can be tightened as what Kapsy above suggests, otherwise I'd say it is toast as well.
(You can use liquid thread sealant that is meant for high pressure pneumatic applications. But I'd say that would be for small or almost unnoticeable leaks at the threads.)

 

[kudaphillips]

No
99% or higher is what's recommended .
Better chance of failure when you go under this

Can a bottle of Helium >95% pure according to the seller work for the EB method?

It's sold to inflate balloons, so I think it's okay, no?

 

[Amish]

No
99% or higher is what's recommended .
Better chance of failure when you go under this

Ok thanks

What justification could I give for buying pure helium, knowing that I don't work in the industry. Same question for argon nitrogen.

I'm also afraid of looking like a complete beginner and attracting suspicion when I pick up the gas cylinder from the depot and load it into a car without necessarily having the right equipment. Do you have any advice?

 

[kudaphillips]

Ok thanks

What justification could I give for buying pure helium, knowing that I don't work in the industry. Same question for argon nitrogen.

I'm also afraid of looking like a complete beginner and attracting suspicion when I pick up the gas cylinder from the depot and load it into a car without necessarily having the right equipment. Do you have any advice

Argon 100% for welding I know. Nitrogen is only used for laser welding , which is kind of obscure, so I'd maybe do a little research if you want to have a story . Industrially these gases are uses as displacing gases to displace oxygen for whatever purpose . it could be best to just say I'm picking it up for a friend of a fam8ly member and he wants 99.99 nitrogen not sure what he uses it for etc

 

[limeoctave]

Ok thanks

What justification could I give for buying pure helium, knowing that I don't work in the industry. Same question for argon nitrogen.

I'm also afraid of looking like a complete beginner and attracting suspicion when I pick up the gas cylinder from the depot and load it into a car without necessarily having the right equipment. Do you have any advice?

as i know, nitrogen is used for pressure testing of refrigerators and AC, also, I heard that it can be used in brewery and for the wine, but im not sure

i'd also say that it's not for me, and i was asked to buy it with high purity

and be careful with the valve and secure the cylinder well in the car

 

[Amish]

So I did my research and discovered that nitrogen can be used to serve draught beer. It's used for stouts. I can use an event or a wedding as an excuse to say that we're going to serve draught beer, if someone bothers me to collect the gas.


I have another question:
This type of regulator is calibrated for Ar/CO2. Do you think I can still use it on a nitrogen bottle and convert the 15l/min to Ar/Co2, or won't it be accurate enough?



There's a regulator for nitrogen with flow rate, but it's 6x more expensive. Do you think the 15l/min needs to be very precise or is a margin of error ok?

 

[kudaphillips]

So I did my research and discovered that nitrogen can be used to serve draught beer. It's used for stouts. I can use an event or a wedding as an excuse to say that we're going to serve draught beer, if someone bothers me to collect the gas.


I have another question:
This type of regulator is calibrated for Ar/CO2. Do you think I can still use it on a nitrogen bottle and convert the 15l/min to Ar/Co2, or won't it be accurate enough?

View attachment 143272

There's a regulator for nitrogen with flow rate, but it's 6x more expensive. Do you think the 15l/min needs to be very precise or is a margin of error ok?

Argon regulators work fine . 15 lpm for argon is prob around 17-18 lpm for nitrogen since it's heavier . There is a conversion table 8n this thread somewhere maybe another member has it.

 

[limeoctave]

Argon regulators work fine . 15 lpm for argon is prob around 17-18 lpm for nitrogen since it's heavier . There is a conversion table 8n this thread somewhere maybe another member has it.

1.19 is coefficient i guess

Exit bag and inert gas megathread

You can use an argon regulator (with flowmeter) on a nitrogen cylinder if the cylinder connection for nitrogen in your region is the same as an argon cylinder connection. ... You seem like you've done a lot of research. Do you know if a US (CGA580 flowmeter connection [like this one]) works...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[reno883]

Hello,
i am a new member and have been working on the topic of exit bags and nitrogen for some time, i made an exit bag and would like to hear your opinions as to whether it is okay for this method and used rubber band and adhesive tape for this,
fixed the elastic band with a knot, on my neck adjusted and left a small splat 2-3 fingers

 

[devils~advocate]

Hello,
i am a new member and have been working on the topic of exit bags and nitrogen for some time, i made an exit bag and would like to hear your opinions as to whether it is okay for this method and used rubber band and adhesive tape for this,
fixed the elastic band with a knot, on my neck adjusted and left a small splat 2-3 fingers

Looks workable. Did you follow a guideline to make this? There are few out there that go step by step on how to produce one.
There are many documented cases of this method being used. It is one of the several methods that is discussed by the International Exit group.

 

[kudaphillips]

Hello,
i am a new member and have been working on the topic of exit bags and nitrogen for some time, i made an exit bag and would like to hear your opinions as to whether it is okay for this method and used rubber band and adhesive tape for this,
fixed the elastic band with a knot, on my neck adjusted and left a small splat 2-3 fingers

View attachment 143553

Looks workable like DA said…I would definitely buy a fastener/ toggle. I think a guy a few pages back was having big problems getting it to work , had no toggle,…though he also didn't hav elastic which it looks like you do.
So I think workable, but could be better. Also can't really tell how big it is, needs to be turkey oven bag size

 

[Schmopo]

After getting a better sized double joiner to connect from the tube to EEBD tube, I now have got airflow into the mask. One issue I found is there's a deliberate(?) leak point from the regulator itself. There's a hole in the nut point that gets attached to the cylinder and it bleeds the N.

Is this normal or do I need to cover it somehow or buy a different regulator?

 

[reno883]

@devils~advocate, @kudaphillips,
thank you for your feedback, i got the instructions for the exit bag from a book that i bought from Amazon,
later i found this forum and also a video on how to make the exit bag, the bag is a turkey bag

 

[devils~advocate]

After getting a better sized double joiner to connect from the tube to EEBD tube, I now have got airflow into the mask. One issue I found is there's a deliberate(?) leak point from the regulator itself. There's a hole in the nut point that gets attached to the cylinder and it bleeds the N.

Is this normal or do I need to cover it somehow or buy a different regulator?

Ive noticed this hole in the threads on a few adapters as well. I believe it is for pressure relief. But it serves no purpose for this use.
I'd say try to get another adapter or regulator. One could use a sealant that is made for high pressure pneumatic parts and threads.
In your case, Im not sure what can be used....maybe some sort of tape could be used to block/cover the hole...a tape that has a high adhesion & resistance to tearing.

 

[justme1]

no


yes

at least mine (Draeger Saver CF)

if i remember correctly, when I closed the hole in the hose and tried to inhale, a vacuum was created, and the air did not enter the hood through the valve and elastic on the neck, even a little

@limeoctave

I have a drager hood (https://www.tmsup.com/products/drager-cf-saver-hood-assembly-se-drager-3359265), which I think... is the same you have. I thought I had a solid / ready to go setup, but then I read a post today (which I cannot find now) that has me concerned. The person was quoting a prior post (perhaps from gasmonkey) wherein it was noted you need some sort of relief valve (akin to an on-demand breather because a constant flow setup was prone to failure. Do you have any further info. re: this topic? As noted, I think / thought I had everything together, but that has me concerned. Thanks!
I'm hoping to get some clarification re: my plan please.

I have:

- a drager hood (https://www.tmsup.com/products/drager-cf-saver-hood-assembly-se-drager-3359265). The hood has an inlet hose, a snug facemask inside, a nice rubberized elastic seal around the neck area, and appears to have a small valve to expell expressed air (though I can't actually feel the air coming through).

- a size 40 industrial grade N2 container. I can't get 100% confirmation this is the 99.9 purity. I got it from Airgas, and I can see it's the industrial-grade (not the food grade). Assuming the purity is okay, I think the 40 is sufficient from my research here.

- I got an argon regulator, and additional components to link everything together, and didn't find any leaks when I did so.

My two main concerns:
1. Pertains to the N2. Is it "pure" enough? Do I have sufficient supply? I "think" I'm okay on both, but would love feedback.

2. The mask setup. I've recently seen some posts indicating a need for an on-demand valve (like with a scuba setup) or some sort of reservoir. I understand how an on-demand valve works, but I "thought" the setup I put together was generally thought to be sufficient (based on reading posts). I'm now having some second thoughts whether I'd run into an issue. I haven't tested the setup, aside from putting an oxygen sensor in the mask, sealing it, and confirming the reading did promptly drop when I turned on the N2. My understanding is the real issue comes down to whether the particular setup is going to avoid the SI.

I'd love some feedback on any of these concerns. Thanks!

 

[limeoctave]

I have a drager hood (https://www.tmsup.com/products/drager-cf-saver-hood-assembly-se-drager-3359265), which I think... is the same you have.

Hi, yes, I think it's the same one I have

Do you have any further info. re: this topic?

No, I haven't read about this

If we are talking about the EEBD method, I don't know why any kind of reservoir is needed here. I think the internal reservoir of the hood is sufficient. It can be calculated, I guess. I don't know much about on-demand valve, but EEBD system works with constant flow as far as I know, and I don't even know how to combine on-demand valve and EEBD hood, and if it's even possible, and why it's needed. Or am I missing something?

I haven't tested the setup, aside from putting an oxygen sensor in the mask, sealing it, and confirming the reading did promptly drop when I turned on the N2.

Thank you for sharing

---

Oh, I see, sorry, you mean this person said that constant flow systems are prone to failure as opposed to on-demand systems, not about mixing EEBD hood and on-demand valve. I don't think so. I don't see why constant flow wouldn't work if done properly, but I'd like to see this person's arguments

 

[reno883]

I want to use this pressure reducer for nitrogen and attach a silicone hose to the outlet with 2 cable ties, is that okay?
pressure reducer Maximum pressure bottle gauge: 0-315 bar Flow rate: 0-30 liters/minute

 

[Schmopo]

Ive noticed this hole in the threads on a few adapters as well. I believe it is for pressure relief. But it serves no purpose for this use.
I'd say try to get another adapter or regulator. One could use a sealant that is made for high pressure pneumatic parts and threads.
In your case, Im not sure what can be used....maybe some sort of tape could be used to block/cover the hole...a tape that has a high adhesion & resistance to tearing.

Sadly it's not easy to find the right regulator in-stores where I am. If I tried sealing, isn't there a possible risk of the regulator shooting out from the tank or some sort of intense pressure buildup that could cause problems?