Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[MG_39]

Yes true if I lacked the understanding how this method works, and if I had no experience with gas (Do have a lot of experience though) then increasing the amount of available gas could maybe give me some piece of mind.

You wrote "A person like you who is very afraid of that should go with a 10L/200bar(or 50L/200bar" I can't see why 10000l gas would give me any piece of mind. I tried to discuss a very important topic, the flow rate. I don't care if Nitschke (who I don't trust at all, ffs him even showing that Rebreather give a very good hint to take his words with a pinch of salt.) or if some people here believe 15-20lpm will be fine, is not a valid reason to not be able to discuss this.

Why do you think the producers of EEBD-hoods recommend around 40lpm flow rate of breathing oxygen, if 20lpm was enough? It would be better for them if their kits would be possible to use for a longer time.

I don't say that 15-20lpm isn't enough, but it's still an important question, could double the lpm decrease the risk of an hypercapnic response after passing out. Of course people will react different, some people will consume less air, some will feel extreme panic and consume more air, and exhale more co2 that need to be flushed.

And yes with 40lpm 10L/200bar could be suitable (50 minutes, compared to 25 minutes with 5L which would most likely be enough, but some margins for tests and filling hood and such)

 

[Dying Knight]

According to the PPH, with an Exit Bag you become unconscious after 1 or 2 breaths (having previously hyperventilated before pulling down the bag).

Sometimes passing out may be caused solely by hyperventilation, and in case if blackout really takes place after 1 - 2 breaths, it probably has a little to no relation to inhaling an inert gas. Even if you immediately remove all oxygen from your lungs, some time should pass before the blood with a lack of oxygen in it reaches your brain.

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

Why do you think the producers of EEBD-hoods recommend around 40lpm flow rate of breathing oxygen, if 20lpm was enough? It would be better for them if their kits would be possible to use for a longer time.

I guess they recommend that, because you probably need more oxygen while trying to get out of a burning building (the goal is to keep you alive). You are in a resting position while ctbing and the goal is to get O2 to a minimum. So 2 different situations with two different goals.

 

[MG_39]

I guess they recommend that, because you probably need more oxygen while trying to get out of a burning building (the goal is to keep you alive). You are in a resting position while ctbing and the goal is to get O2 to a minimum. So 2 different situations with two different goals.

Yes absolutely I agree with you. But even in a resting position you will probably consume more air than normal because you are stressed and in panic. It would be interesting to see how different lpm impact co2 levels in the hood. I actually consider testing it with breathing oxygen.

 

[outrider567]

Yes true if I lacked the understanding how this method works, and if I had no experience with gas (Do have a lot of experience though) then increasing the amount of available gas could maybe give me some piece of mind.

You wrote "A person like you who is very afraid of that should go with a 10L/200bar(or 50L/200bar" I can't see why 10000l gas would give me any piece of mind. I tried to discuss a very important topic, the flow rate. I don't care if Nitschke (who I don't trust at all, ffs him even showing that Rebreather give a very good hint to take his words with a pinch of salt.) or if some people here believe 15-20lpm will be fine, is not a valid reason to not be able to discuss this.

Why do you think the producers of EEBD-hoods recommend around 40lpm flow rate of breathing oxygen, if 20lpm was enough? It would be better for them if their kits would be possible to use for a longer time.

I don't say that 15-20lpm isn't enough, but it's still an important question, could double the lpm decrease the risk of an hypercapnic response after passing out. Of course people will react different, some people will consume less air, some will feel extreme panic and consume more air, and exhale more co2 that need to be flushed.

And yes with 40lpm 10L/200bar could be suitable (50 minutes, compared to 25 minutes with 5L which would most likely be enough, but some margins for tests and filling hood and such)

Greenberg reports many many successful 15 to 20 LPM Nitrogen CTB's--Vizzy CTB'ed at 21 LPM--40 LPM is ridiculous, as Greenberg warned could create other problems, anything over 25 LPM is not wise as per Greenberg--15, 20, 25, its up to the individual to which flow rate they want and believe in--Das_Nichts passed out at 25 LPM

 

[MG_39]

Greenberg reports many many successful 15 to 20 LPM Nitrogen CTB's--Vizzy CTB'ed at 21 LPM--40 LPM is ridiculous, as Greenberg warned could create other problems, anything over 25 LPM is not wise as per Greenberg--15, 20, 25, its up to the individual to which flow rate they want and believe in--Das_Nichts passed out at 25 LPM

What was his reasoning behind

anything over 25 LPM is not wise

I'm asking because I'm curious, I can't really see why it wouldn't be wise when it's suitable when it's used for the real purpose of a eebd hood. And I don't say that 25lpm wouldn't work good, but when around 40lpm is recommended for breathing oxygen, and you can breathe it freely, I can't see why it would be a bad idea with an inert gas. (Ps not trying to argue, just discuss)

 

[winterparty]

So I've put on the 3m scott hood for a while and I've noticed the hood is breathing itself and you get the feeling that you barely get any oxygen if you don't attach anything to the hose. Is it the same with nitrogen? It's a difficult feeling to think you don't get enough oxygen with the mask on without anything attached to it. I just want to know how it will feel with nitrogen. I will CTB tomorrow or so.

 

[ztem]

It's a difficult feeling to think you don't get enough oxygen with the mask on without anything attached to it

If you can't breathe easily, this means that there is no problem with the hood and it is airtight.

I just want to know how it will feel with nitrogen

Like the air you breathe.

 

[outrider567]

So I've put on the 3m scott hood for a while and I've noticed the hood is breathing itself and you get the feeling that you barely get any oxygen if you don't attach anything to the hose. Is it the same with nitrogen? It's a difficult feeling to think you don't get enough oxygen with the mask on without anything attached to it. I just want to know how it will feel with nitrogen. I will CTB tomorrow or so.

Inhaling Nitrogen feels exactly the same as the air you breathe, done 5 tests with it

 

[Glandular]

Inhaling Nitrogen feels exactly the same as the air you breathe, done 5 tests with it

To add to that: Nitrogen makes up most of the air that we breath (78 %). So it is only natural that we don't feel a difference while breathing it.

 

[Alpercino]

Hello is it possible to order everything needed in germany?

 

[anonaon]

What was his reasoning behind

Stop asking this. Several people, including me, have answered your question already. Doubting 15-25LPM cuz of stress/panic during your CTB is literally the definition of fear mongering when people in this forum have CTB'd with it. Stress/panic will NOT affect how much air you breathe (not enough to make a significant difference).

As others have said, when youre in movement, you require more air. High performance athelets or people running out of a burning building may require more than 25LPM of air. Unless you plan on CTB'ing doing jumping jacks or running a mile with a large nitrogen tank on your back, between 15-25LPM will suffice

At rest, the average male breathes anywhere from only 5-10 litres per minute. 25LPM is 2.5x that larger amount. Its more than enough No amount of stress or any other mental gymnastics you do in your head can change that.

If you are somehow still unsatisfied, get a regulator that allows 40LPM or 100LPM or whatever number satisfies you and use it.

Its perfectly valid to be skeptical and have your concerns but for fucks sake the fear mongering is running rampant lately

 

[Minsu]

I think inert is the best method for me so I would like to order rebreather III since it seems pretty handy and easy to operate.
If you find any reliable site with the stuff, just send me a link pls. Thanks

 

[Falling Slowly]

I think inert is the best method for me so I would like to order rebreather III since it seems pretty handy and easy to operate.
If you find any reliable site with the stuff, just send me a link pls. Thanks

Some people had problems with the rebreather a few weeks back. Look at this thread if you haven't already.

 

[ClownWorld2023]

I think inert is the best method for me so I would like to order rebreather III since it seems pretty handy and easy to operate.
If you find any reliable site with the stuff, just send me a link pls. Thanks

Apparently there were some problems with it.

rebreather.

I just ordered the new rebreather. no order confirmation from the initial site and you have to use a separate site for shipping info. nothing from there either. cost me about $300+ being in the U.S. I emailed the shipping site immediately after asking for information. after reading the other...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[Minsu]

Some people had problems with the rebreather a few weeks back. Look at this thread if you haven't already.

Thank you, I've not read the thread yet!

Apparently there were some problems with it.

rebreather.

I just ordered the new rebreather. no order confirmation from the initial site and you have to use a separate site for shipping info. nothing from there either. cost me about $300+ being in the U.S. I emailed the shipping site immediately after asking for information. after reading the other...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Thanks

 

[ClownWorld2023]

On the topic of LPM, earlier today I did my first testing with the exit bag over my head.
This was done while in lying down position.

I used around 15-20 LPM, and with the exit bag on and pulsemetter attached, it took approx. 30 seconds to go down to 58% O2 saturation.
After that I took off the exit bag out fears of passing out etc... I didn't really notice any signs, or perhaps they were just too subtle.
Will test it again later after fixing up my exit bag setup.

I think the flow used is fine, but I myself ran into practical issues with the exit bag, such as gas hose being taped onto the wrong position, and also the gas hose displacing the plastic bag easily, because the hose weighs much more.

I will need to fix my plastic bag setup to ensure it actually works for CTB.


I'll also look into Vizzy's EEBD hood guide again.
The first time I saw it and read things about hoses, crimping and clamps I immediately noped out, but maybe it's better than dealing with the gymnastics involved with getting this plastic bag working properly.

 

[groucho]

Has EM been shutdown? Their website is directing to a domain seller.

 

[anonaon]

Has EM been shutdown? Their website is directing to a domain seller.

Yup

 

[ClownWorld2023]

Are there any 50L cylinders that weigh below 60kg?

Does anyone know?

I found a source that claims to be so.
But my 10L cylinder weighs approx. 17kg and another 20L type weighed 37kg, so how can this be?

 

[anonaon]

Are there any 50L cylinders that weigh below 60kg?

Does anyone know?

I found a source that claims to be so.
But my 10L cylinder weighs approx. 17kg and another 20L type weighed 37kg, so how can this be?

Why do you need 50L? Are you trying to kil godzilla?

 

[Cheffo]

Car, small room ... not much of a difference ?

Cars have spaces to leak. I am sure that room was in research lab setting. It would have needed a huge amount of nitrogen and would have to be air tight or close to it. No expert here at all, but I think you would have to suck the oxygen out before putting the Nitrogen in, or they would mix. From what I read on the PP Forum (I am over 50 so I can chat there) anything but the bag is impracticle and untested. Apparently thousands of people have used the exit bag effectively, any other method is simply experimenting. You can use turkey bags from Amazon, they are very clear, when you put them on they don't feel clostrophic. You can see everything clearly. If you have someone with you can look at them.

 

[groucho]

Now that EM has gone does anyone know a source of the barrel style regulators? Or their technical name?

 

[Falling Slowly]

Now that EM has gone does anyone know a source of the barrel style regulators? Or their technical name?

Are you referring to nitrogen click-style regulators, that look like this:

 

[MG_39]

Stop asking this. Several people, including me, have answered your question already. Doubting 15-25LPM cuz of stress/panic during your CTB is literally the definition of fear mongering when people in this forum have CTB'd with it. Stress/panic will NOT affect how much air you breathe (not enough to make a significant difference).

As others have said, when youre in movement, you require more air. High performance athelets or people running out of a burning building may require more than 25LPM of air. Unless you plan on CTB'ing doing jumping jacks or running a mile with a large nitrogen tank on your back, between 15-25LPM will suffice

At rest, the average male breathes anywhere from only 5-10 litres per minute. 25LPM is 2.5x that larger amount. Its more than enough No amount of stress or any other mental gymnastics you do in your head can change that.

If you are somehow still unsatisfied, get a regulator that allows 40LPM or 100LPM or whatever number satisfies you and use it.

Its perfectly valid to be skeptical and have your concerns but for fucks sake the fear mongering is running rampant lately

This is my last post in this thread, I will leave it to the small group of experts we have here, me as an amateur with zero understanding of this method, and close to no technical knowledge/experience (comparing to you guys of course) that question things will just result in fear mongering, and I don't see it likely that I can be a part of a productive discussion.

But don't tell people what they can discuss or not.

The answer you gave was not an answer to my question. I asked about "What was his reasoning behind this" According to Greenberg it could apparently cause other problems. And if it can then it's certainly a VERY valid question, because I can't see the risks with 40lpm with an inert gas, when it's not a risk for breathing oxygen (Or maybe it is, and you need to contact the large producers of EEBD rescue hoods so they can hire you as consultants.

I mean it could save them from a possible law suit if for example the lung pressure mm Hg is so high so it could cause damage.

And this comment from you

If you are somehow still unsatisfied, get a regulator that allows 40LPM or 100LPM or whatever number satisfies you and use it.

do you think that's a good comment, if someone read this and use 100lpm in a eebd hood, going up to levels as high as 100lpm, that would be something that could cause problems because of the pressure.

I think some people here need to climb down from their high horses. I DON'T see myself as an expert, I don't have enough data to see what is suitable or not, and neither have you guys, so people who are interested in discussing even things that you might see as small details that doesn't matter, should be allowed to discuss without you screaming "fearmongering"

Ps. I'm not interested in discussing more here, I do my tests myself with breathing oxygen and measure co2 levels at different lpm.

 

[ClownWorld2023]

Why do you need 50L? Are you trying to kil godzilla?

Haha.

I'm actually considering the full room air displacement method.
My room is suitable for it, because it's well insulated and there are no ventilation methods apart from opening the door.

With this method I wouldn't have to worry about the plastic bag or SI causing failure.

What was his reasoning behind

I'm asking because I'm curious, I can't really see why it wouldn't be wise when it's suitable when it's used for the real purpose of a eebd hood. And I don't say that 25lpm wouldn't work good, but when around 40lpm is recommended for breathing oxygen, and you can breathe it freely, I can't see why it would be a bad idea with an inert gas. (Ps not trying to argue, just discuss)

This thread discusses the matter of flow rate a bit: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/inert-gas-cylinder-regulator-general-refresher-summary.30657
It also has some replies by @Greenberg. Especially page 2 contains some important information you might want to see.



About the matter of discussing, I think the best one can do is use the search feature of the forum to gather as much information as possible from all the previous threads about inert gas and do testing yourself, then draw conclusions yourself.

 

[anonaon]

I'm actually considering the full room air displacement method.

You might be intrested in liquid nitrogen. It's what the Sacro uses (more details on the PPH)

 

[ClownWorld2023]

You might be intrested in liquid nitrogen. It's what the Sacro uses (more details on the PPH)

I wish it was readily accessible for me.
I looked around for a while, but apparently you can't easily buy liquid nitrogen as a private person in my country.
I don't know whether it's because of laws/regulations or the companies just refusing service for whatever reason.

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

The answer you gave was not an answer to my question. I asked about "What was his reasoning behind this" According to Greenberg it could apparently cause other problems. And if it can then it's certainly a VERY valid question, because I can't see the risks with 40lpm with an inert gas, when it's not a risk for breathing oxygen (Or maybe it is, and you need to contact the large producers of EEBD rescue hoods so they can hire you as consultants.

I think nobody knows the answer to this question. Maybe the risk of something ripping apart increases at a higher flow.

 

[winterparty]

I want to CTB today. Any recommendations? I will test for leaks now and I will test it on a dummy head with a gas detector. I will not use a oximeter as I think that's enough.