Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[outrider567]

Just looking back at some of those older posts that you referred to. While that FromGermany guy seemed ignorant and arrogant, he claims he tested a few EEBD hoods and seemed convinced the EEBD method wasn't worth the risk. Seems to think the hoods won't be filled fast enough or continuous enough with the inert gas.

Also seemed convinced that at least 20lpm was needed. He might have come across as a bit of an asshole, but did he have any reason to bullshit people?

As someone with EEBD setup, it puts a little bit of doubt in my head.

Why would you read posts from somebody that is banned?? You should only read Greenberg, he says absolutely 15 LPM is enough, and he challenged anybody to go on Google and show Nitrogen failures with Exitbag or EEBD Hood at 15 LPM---If you are in doubt yourself, guess what? Just change the flowmeter to 25 LPM!! Greenberg himself said 25 LPM is ok, just that its louder--Enough already

 

[Falling Slowly]

Why would you read posts from somebody that is banned?? You should only read Greenberg, he says absolutely 15 LPM is enough, and he challenged anybody to go on Google and show Nitrogen failures with Exitbag or EEBD Hood at 15 LPM---If you are in doubt yourself, guess what? Just change the flowmeter to 25 LPM!! Greenberg himself said 25 LPM is ok, just that its louder--Enough already

Was he banned for being an asshole to people? Or some other reason? He seemed to have a major spat with that Greenberg guy.

Not that I'm particularly hung up on the LPM, was just taken with how against the EEBD hood setup he was. He said he tested cheap Chinese hoods, like EM ones, but also expensive German one. And recommended not using them.

But obviously according to some posters, some have ctb using EEBD, (e.g. @bennydiazapine, @vizzy). SCBA might be a bit more fullproof though, given that there isn't a hood to fill with the gas.

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

So if you have no problem with that adapter, that adapter will be the next solution for the SCBA setup.

I'll do some tests and post the results here as soon as I receive my order. The order includes a pressure gauge.

 

[anonaon]

Was he banned for being an asshole to people? Or some other reason? He seemed to have a major spat with that Greenberg guy.

Not that I'm particularly hung up on the LPM, was just taken with how against the EEBD hood setup he was. He said he tested cheap Chinese hoods, like EM ones, but also expensive German one. And recommended not using them.

But obviously according to some posters, some have ctb using EEBD, (e.g. @bennydiazapine, @vizzy). SCBA might be a bit more fulproof though, given that there isn't a hood to fill with the gas.

The EEBD, like SCBA, is literally an emergency escape device designed to prevent users from breathing in external air including smoke, poisionus gas... and thousands of ships across several countries have them onboard. I dare you find me a single case where an EEBD has failed &/or resulted in death. SCBA is a bit more robust than the EEBD cuz its desgined to be used in actual firefighting missions but they both kill in roughly the same amount of time. Also, the EEBD kit from EM had gone out of stock several times (not all of those buyers post/comment on SASU - who i'm sure we would hear from them had the EEBD failed). Go figure!

Regarding the flowrate, anywhere from 15-25LPM is perfect. Less than 15, you won't be unconscious from insuffcient gas flow. More than 25, you're simply wasting gas (unless you're in movement - what it was designed for). @bennydiazpine CTB'd using 15LPM, @Vizzy CTB'd using 25LPM. Both work. Soon I will get my O2 meter and record the time taken for the o2 inside the hood to reach 0 at 15, 20, and 25LPM.

I also trust the words of @Greenberg and @GasMonkey over some rando on the forum making unproven claims

 

[ztem]

I'll do some tests and post the results here as soon as I receive my order. The order includes a pressure gauge.

jacrispy said the SCUBA equipment was almost 2000$,with this price they can buy the best PP SCBA equipment in the US.
How much did you pay for it?

 

[lion4000b]

I'm not going with this method, have rescue hood setup, but it seems you've got everything covered. I don't think I'll bother checking the O2 levels of the cylinder either, will take the reputable retailer at their word also. If you're ctb soon, good luck!

Thanks :) Any reason why you choose the rescue hood?

 

[Falling Slowly]

Thanks :) Any reason why you choose the rescue hood?

Far cheaper, and easier to source.
Though am wondering if SCBA might be the more reliable method.

 

[lion4000b]

The EEBD, like SCBA, is literally an emergency escape device designed to prevent users from breathing in external air including smoke, poisionus gas... and thousands of ships across several countries have them onboard. I dare you find me a single case where an EEBD has failed &/or resulted in death. SCBA is a bit more robust than the EEBD cuz its desgined to be used in actual firefighting missions but they both kill in roughly the same amount of time. Also, the EEBD kit from EM had gone out of stock several times (not all of those buyers post/comment on SASU - who i'm sure we would hear from them had the EEBD failed). Go figure!

Regarding the flowrate, anywhere from 15-25LPM is perfect. Less than 15, you won't be unconscious from insuffcient gas flow. More than 25, you're simply wasting gas (unless you're in movement - what it was designed for). @bennydiazpine CTB'd using 15LPM, @Vizzy CTB'd using 25LPM. Both work. Soon I will get my O2 meter and record the time taken for the o2 inside the hood to reach 0 at 15, 20, and 25LPM.

I also trust the words of @Greenberg and @GasMonkey over some rando on the forum making unproven claims

Am I right in that the hood demands a constant flow of Nitrogen, but the SCBA mask via the demand value will only use enough nitrogen from the tank to maintain100% saturation?

So I open the cylnder and my SCBA will fill with 100% nitro. I will breathe out Co2 and the cylnder will replace it immediately.

When my breathing becomes shallow the mask will still maintain 100% full with nitro but do so slowly. Once Im dead and no longer expelling co2 the mask will be full with nitro but the cylnder will not be emptying.

Conversely, with the hood method the cylnder will be constantly emptying.

Is this accurate?

Gasmonkey said: "Yeah the demand valve maintains a positive pressure inside the mask, just using the necessary gas.|

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

jacrispy said the SCUBA equipment was almost 2000$,with this price they can buy the best PP SCBA equipment in the US.
How much did you pay for it?

Around 1300 euro excluding gas cylinder and adapter. But money was not the reason why I did chose SCUBA.
1. The DIN 300 adapter was/is not available, so I bought the DIN 200 adapter which I thought was okay for SCUBA and not for SCBA (that was before our discussion from a few hours ago). 2. SCUBA materials are available in my country, SCBA not. I found SCBA somewhere abroad with 30 days delivery time. 3. PP causes the cylinder to drain faster when doing a black out test and SCUBA while not being PP also has been proven to be effective by several users. See quote:

What SCUBA equipment do you have? I'd say that a well fine-tuned SCUBA with a comfortable mask is better than the manually crafted ExitBag, it was used by SlovakGuy, likely by @Diver_K_A, and by @LetzteAusfahrt to assist suicide. To use SCUBA apart from the mask you need a regulator (1st stage) and demand valve (2nd stage).

So I don't get the negativity around SCUBA. I didn't see any failed attempts with SCUBA or people talking about CO2 buildup.

 

[puffnstuff]

I have done several practice runs, 15 LPM N2, EB (turkey roasting bag), hyperventilate for about a minute and breath all the way out, elastic is not too tight and I still feel like I am suffocating. I wonder if I should use a larger bag?

 

[Willthishelp?]

Greetings : To others using the EEBD hood I did a dry test and need to ask those of you in the same position if the hood's moulded mouth/nosepeice needs to be sitting snugly against my face. Being glued into the hood, there exists some clearance between the edges of the moulded breathing mechanism & the contours of my face. It crossed my mind to use a wide elastic strap pulled over the outside the hood to hold it close. Having said this the hood fills & collapses very effectively with regular inhalation/exhalation so there is snug fit round the neck & the hood is clearly well designed for the job. Best to everyone & please chime in on this issue of fit.

Which hood do you have I have a pss drager one

 

[Das Nichts]

I have done several practice runs, 15 LPM N2, EB (turkey roasting bag), hyperventilate for about a minute and breath all the way out, elastic is not too tight and I still feel like I am suffocating. I wonder if I should use a larger bag?

You should never feel the sense of suffocation. This means CO2 is not purged from the bag either by not having a constant flow or no gap in the neck region.

You should be unconscious < 30 seconds. Otherwise your nitrogen is not pure enough or you don't have sufficient lung capacity.

Post a picture of your bag.

Is this accurate

Yes

As someone with EEBD setup, it puts a little bit of doubt in my head

Forget about what from Germany said. All he did was fest mongering.
That's why we have this ridiculous flow rate discussion.

Did he ever provide any explanation why a hood will not fill up as needed ?

 

[Falling Slowly]

2. SCUBA materials are available in my country, SCBA not. I found SCBA somewhere abroad with 30 days delivery time.

You say SCBA materials are not available in your country. Are the SCBA masks & regulators hard for the general public to get a hold of in some places, given their uses in firefighting etc

Did he ever provide any explanation why a hood will not fill up as needed ?

I don't think he did.
It seems he just felt that there wouldn't be enough of a continuous flow of the gas in EEBD hoods to ctb. He seemed to think that they were designed to be used at 40lpm.

He even seemed to think that exit bag was better than EEBD hoods, so he advised either using them or a proper SCUBA mask.

 

[MG_39]

You say SCBA materials are not available in your country. Are the SCBA masks & regulators hard for the general public to get a hold of in some places, given their uses in firefighting etc

I don't think he did.
It seems he just felt that there wouldn't be enough of a continuous flow of the gas in EEBD hoods to ctb. He seemed to think that they were designed to be used at 40lpm.

He even seemed to think that exit bag was better than EEBD hoods, so he advised either using them or a proper SCUBA mask.

When they are used as their main purpose (not ctb) a quick google search show 35-40lpm of oxygen. (Not saying 15-20lpm wouldn't be enough, just sharing what I found)

 

[Falling Slowly]

When they are used as their main purpose (not ctb) a quick google search show 35-40lpm of oxygen. (Not saying 15-20lpm wouldn't be enough, just sharing what I found)

Yeah, that's why he seemed to be saying that normal advice for LPM for ctb(15-25lpm) wouldn't be enough to fill the hood for the required time needed to ctb. He was also saying that <20 LPM wasn't enough for any method. But while he said he tested several hoods, he didn't seem to back up anything he was saying with a proper explanation of how he came to his conclusions.

His other issue with hoods was just against cheap Chinese hoods that, according to him, EM sourced to sell. Seemed to be saying they weren't fit for use.

 

[MG_39]

Yeah, that's why he seemed to be saying that normal advice for LPM for ctb(15-25lpm) wouldn't be enough to fill the hood for the required time needed to ctb. He was also saying that <20 LPM wasn't enough for any method. But while he said he tested several hoods, he didn't seem to back up anything he was saying with a proper explanation of how he came to his conclusions.

His other issue with hoods was just against cheap Chinese hoods that, according to him, EM sourced to sell. Seemed to be saying they weren't fit for use.

Just to clarify, I'm no expert. But the purpose for these hoods are to be used in for example places where you have CO (a building on fire as example) and if you sit down now and breathe you will consume way less air than if you would walk quickly. So I can see how around 40lpm would be suitable when used with a breathing air mixture.

But this method still scare me, the thought of something going wrong after passing out could result in really bad brain damage. And I'm not talking about mistakes in the setup like leaks, not enough gas, being interrupted, falling and dislodge/kink the tube. Or an unlikely scenario with a failed diaphragm in the regulator (which is unlikely with a new quality regulator) I would just be scared that I for some reason would wake up again in an hypercapnic response from a co2 build up or something, confused and brain damaged to a level where I'm stuck here on earth suffering.

 

[Falling Slowly]

Just to clarify, I'm no expert. But the purpose for these hoods are to be used in for example places where you have CO (a building on fire as example) and if you sit down now and breathe you will consume way less air than if you would walk quickly. So I can see how around 40lpm would be suitable when used with a breathing air mixture.

But this method still scare me, the thought of something going wrong after passing out could result in really bad brain damage. And I'm not talking about mistakes in the setup like leaks, not enough gas, being interrupted, falling and dislodge/kink the tube. Or an unlikely scenario with a failed diaphragm in the regulator (which is unlikely with a new quality regulator) I would just be scared that I for some reason would wake up again in an hypercapnic response from a co2 build up or something, confused and brain damaged to a level where I'm stuck here on earth suffering.

I get what you're saying. That probably does put some people off these methods alright. But I guess there's a fear with many methods out there that could go wrong.

I guess the main draw of inert gas method is a painless and peaceful ctb, if everything goes right.

 

[ztem]

1. The DIN 300 adapter was/is not available, so I bought the DIN 200 adapter which I thought was okay for SCUBA and not for SCBA (that was before our discussion from a few hours ago).

DIN300 SCUBA regs are much more common than DIN200 SCUBA regs,the only difference is that you can find DIN200 SCUBA regs but there's no DIN200 reg for SCBA and you can simply connect the DIN300 reg to the DIN200 valve(or adapter) and there will be no gas leakage but you can't connect the DIN200 reg to the DIN300 valve(or adapter).There is no adapter difference between the SCBA or SCUBA setup.

 

[Das Nichts]

His other issue with hoods was just against cheap Chinese hoods that, according to him, EM sourced to sell. Seemed to be saying they weren't fit for use.

Yeah that's totally plausible. You can't even get helium that isn't watered down with oxygen nowadays because so many people offed themselves in combination with roasting bags but a rescue hood that is built for this kind of stuff poses magical properties that suddenly make it unviable.

I would just be scared that I for some reason would wake up again in an hypercapnic response from a co2 build up or something, confused and brain damaged to a level where I'm stuck here on earth suffering.

You have a flawed reasoning. You assume after a successful exit it will be the end of everything and there will be peace. On an unsuccessful exit however you wake up with brain damage thinking: oh noes I fd up.

Why do you take the first one for granted ? If science holds any ground in this universe, the same science you apply for your nitrogen exit, then all fear of brain damage is completely pointless.

And to be precise, you won't wake up. Your body will. You, your personality, yourself will be erased after 5 minutes without oxygen.

 

[MG_39]

You have a flawed reasoning. You assume after a successful exit it will be the end of everything and there will be peace. On an unsuccessful exit however you wake up with brain damage thinking: oh noes I fd up.

Why do you take the first one for granted ? If science holds any ground in this universe, the same science you apply for your nitrogen exit, then all fear of brain damage is completely pointless.

And to be precise, you won't wake up. Your body will. You, your personality, yourself will be erased after 5 minutes without oxygen.

What happens after a successful exit is something that maybe not belong in this thread, but more in a thread about existential questions.

And no I don't assume that a failure after passing out is a certainty for brain damage, I see it as a risk (something that scare me)

If the flow of gas isn't enough to flush co2 in correlation to the consumption of gas and expelled co2, so it results in a build up of inert gas and co2 to a level where it's not possible to freely breathe the gas. Let's say this happens after being passed out, and someone wake up from an hypercapnic response, I fully respect if you believe that it can't result in brain damage. I do believe it can though.

Tbh, sometimes this forum can be annoying, if someone question risks about something, important questions that need to be discussed, then some people tend to "protect their method" and like "Say anything negative about this and it's fear mongering"

Btw do you have any measurements of co2 levels at different flow rates like 15-20-40lpm when breathing over minutes (with breathing oxygen and not inert gas of course) that would have more value, than what you just think, or rather what you feel so certain about.

 

[ztem]

If the flow of gas isn't enough to flush co2 in correlation to the consumption of gas and expelled co2, so it results in a build up of inert gas and co2 to a level where it's not possible to freely breathe the gas. Let's say this happens after being passed out, and someone wake up from an hypercapnic response, I fully respect if you believe that it can't result in brain damage. I do believe it can though

A person like you who is very afraid of that should go with a 10L/200bar(or 50L/200bar if you are still not sure) cylinder and the best SCBA equipment.

 

[Das Nichts]

What happens after a successful exit is something that maybe not belong in this thread, but more in a thread about existential questions.

And yet you take it for given that exactly that happens what you imagine or what you trying to escape by CTB.

And no I don't assume that a failure after passing out is a certainty for brain damage, I see it as a risk (something that scare me)

A risk for whom ?

If the flow of gas isn't enough to flush co2 in correlation to the consumption of gas and expelled co2, so it results in a build up of inert gas and co2 to a level where it's not possible to freely breathe the gas. Let's say this happens after being passed out, and someone wake up from an hypercapnic response,

All that is established in the pph. If you're using Rescue Hood with exhalation valve the flow rate purging is irrelevant.
Some people, myself included, are pushing Rescue Hood for that very reason.

Tbh, sometimes this forum can be annoying, if someone question risks about something, important questions that need to be discussed, then some people tend to "protect their method" and like "Say anything negative about this and it's fear mongering"

I'm not protecting anything. It also is not my method, it's the one I choose after reading all the available information.
And that's exactly the point, there is a finite amount of information available.

All other questions, like your hypercapniac response or winterpartys pain receptiveness after being unconscious will not get an answer because no one knows.

Btw do you have any measurements of co2 levels at different flow rates like 15-20-40lpm when breathing over minutes (with breathing oxygen and not inert gas of course) that would have more value, than what you just think, or rather what you feel so certain about.

No I don't but feel free to get the equipment and measure it yourself!

 

[MG_39]

A person like you who is very afraid of that should go with a 10L/200bar(or 50L/200bar if you are still not sure) cylinder and the best SCBA equipment.

I can't really see your point here. Aren't most SCBA's LDV, so would require way less gas than a hood.

 

[ztem]

I can't really see your point here. Aren't most SCBA's LDV, so would require way less gas than a hood.

Yes 5/200bar is more than enough but you know why I said that,you are very afraid of this method and have very intense mental gymnastics,for people like you I think increasing the numbers will give you peace of mind.

 

[anonaon]

Wasn't he that guy was who was selling cheap oxygen regulators that were rebranded and sold for $300

Thats Philip Nitschke, owner of Exit International & MaxDogBrewing

Wasn't he scmode?

No, Greenberg has no affiliations with EscMode. EM was founded by Kenneth Law

Guys please be very careful about trusting people on this site especially if they are directing you what to buy specifically.

Whats your solution? How would you direct someone who questions EEBD's, Rescue hoods, flowrates, unconsciousness, etc for no reason besides fearmongering?

 

[Meditation guide]

Thats MaxDogBrewing

No, Greenberg has no affiliations with EscMode. EM was founded by Kenneth Law

Whats your solution? How would you direct someone who questions EEBD's, Rescue hoods, flowrates, unconsciousness, etc for no reasons besides fearmongering?

Escmode was reselling rebranded cheap regulators at a jacked up price. I found them online for a fraction of the price.
I don't have a solution I am simply saying that people may not be trustworthy or have an ulterior motive.

 

[anonaon]

Escmode was reselling rebranded cheap regulators at a jacked up price. I found them online for a fraction of the price.

I bought from Escmode & Ive also seen the same regulator online for 1/8th the price but thats whats happens when you have a monopoly in a niche market. Regardless, the reason why people kept pushing Escmode is because it was convinient. No need to find additional adapters, couplings, no need to extend & clamp hoses... everything was ready to go. Now that EM is no longer available, the next most convinient method is the Drager resuce hood, or SCBA depending where you're from, which is why its being rightfully pushed

 

[Meditation guide]

I bought from Escmode & Ive also seen the same regulator online for 1/8th the price but thats whats happens when you have a monopoly in a niche market. Regardless, the reason why people kept pushing Escmode is because it was convinient. No need to find additional adapters, couplings, no need to extend & clamp hoses... everything was ready to go. Now that EM is no longer available, the next most convinient method is the Drager resuce hood, or SCBA depending where you're from, which is why its being rightfully pushed

I just now read that someone was complaining that regulator wouldn't fit her canister. The coupling was completely different from the actual ones that worked. She said she was going to buy a Max Dog one.
At first the escmode one was the oxygen one with an adaptor on it but it looks like he realized he could just sell the oxygen one with no adapter. What a guy.

Kenneth Law was arrested first in May. When did Greenberg close his account here?

 

[anonaon]

I just now read that someone was complaining that regulator wouldn't fit her canister.

If her regulator & cylinder have the same connections but it didnt fit, she did something wrong

At first the escmode one was the oxygen one with an adaptor on it but it looks like he realized he could just sell the oxygen one with no adapter.

What adapter are you referring to?

 

[Meditation guide]

If her regulator & cylinder have the same connections but it didnt fit, she did something wrong


What adapter are you referring to?

It had an adapter to make the oxygen regulator fit a nitrogen tank. How did she do something wrong if it wouldn't fit the tank? she shows a pic of it and one that fits and they look different.