Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[kudaphillips]

Question

During the recommended process to successfully ctb with exit bag and nitrogen , it's recommended to hyperventilate, then exhale all air out of lungs , then take deepest breath possible ..

why would it not be recommended to exhale all the air out of your lungs , and THEN literally fight the urge to breathe for a while , maybe even as long as you can …THEN when desperate for air , pull bag down and take the deepest breath possible.

Seems to me your way more likely to quickly die, and quickly black out …

Am I missing something ?

 

[limeoctave]

Question

During the recommended process to successfully ctb with exit bag and nitrogen , it's recommended to hyperventilate, then exhale all air out of lungs , then take deepest breath possible ..

why would it not be recommended to exhale all the air out of your lungs , and THEN literally fight the urge to breathe for a while , maybe even as long as you can …THEN when desperate for air , pull bag down and take the deepest breath possible.

Seems to me your way more likely to quickly die, and quickly black out …

Am I missing something ?

quick guess — maybe it's not recommended because, when you hold your breath the amount of co2 will be increasing in your lungs (or in the blood idk)

and when you will be desperate for air you actually want to exhale co2 and not inhale smth, so i guess in that case anyway you will be needed to exhale first

 

[itsme777]

I saw a video of a pig breathing inert gas in a box. It fainted in 20-30 seconds without hyperventialing etc. It appears to have died in about 1 minute I think.

 

[limeoctave]

I saw a video of a pig breathing inert gas in a box. It fainted in 20-30 seconds without hyperventialing etc. It appears to have died in about 1 minute I think.

I'm sure that it's not possible to die within 1 minute from inert gas

 

[itsme777]

I have seen several state that it is. One being a scientist who worked with killing animals using argon etc

 

[limeoctave]

I have seen several state that it is. One being a scientist who worked with killing animals using argon etc

can you send them?
are you talking about animals or humans?

oh I'm sorry, i haven't seen 'pig', then in that case idk

 

[kudaphillips]

quick guess — maybe it's not recommended because, when you hold your breath the amount of co2 will be increasing in your lungs (or in the blood idk)

and when you will be desperate for air you want to exhale co2 and not inhale smth, so i guess in that case anyway you will be needed to exhale first

Air you breathe is converted to CO2 by inhaling and exhaling. To me it doesn't seem like cO2 would be build8ng if you aren't breathing, your out of air..this is why cO2 builds in the bag because you are breathing / exhaling in the bag But maybe your right and my science is way off I dunno

 

[limeoctave]

Air you breathe is converted to CO2 by inhaling and exhaling. To me it doesn't seem like cO2 would be build8ng if you aren't breathing, your out of air..this is why cO2 builds in the bag because you are breathing / exhaling in the bag But maybe your right and my science is way off I dunno

co2 would be building by metabolism in cells from left oxygen in your blood, i guess. there's always some small amount of oxygen in your blood

i guess @Kapsyl is already writing their well argumented answer

 

[Kapsyl]

I have seen several state that it is. One being a scientist who worked with killing animals using argon etc

Pigs are quite similar to humans strictly physically I'm quite sure their brains are able to survive longer than a minute without oxygen. But I don't doubt they becoming unconscious within a minute.

Air you breathe is converted to CO2 by inhaling and exhaling. To me it doesn't seem like cO2 would be build8ng if you aren't breathing, your out of air..this is why cO2 builds in the bag because you are breathing / exhaling in the bag But maybe your right and my science is way off I dunno

The urge to take a breath is co2 building up inside your bloodstream, the same co2 will be inside the bag which will be inhaled again if not purged somehow. The reason to hyperventilate is to use up the oxygen in your bloodstream which will be replenished by nitrogen when taking a deep breath inside of the bag. Basically speeding up the process to loose unconsciousness quicker and avoiding unpleasant co2 build up in the bag.

 

[itsme777]

Search for inert gas pig on youtube. An 8 year old video with someone in a helmet and labcoat
There was also a documentary on best way to die where a scientist mentioned death within a minute

 

[limeoctave]

Pigs are quite similar to humans strictly physically I'm quite sure their brains are able to survive longer than a minute without oxygen. But I don't doubt they becoming unconscious within a minute.



The urge to take a breath is co2 building up inside your bloodstream, the same co2 will be inside the bag which will be inhaled again if not purged somehow. The reason to hyperventilate is to use up the oxygen in your bloodstream which will be replenished by nitrogen when taking a deep breath inside of the bag. Basically speeding up the process to loose unconsciousness quicker and avoiding unpleasant co2 build up in the bag.

there's also another one side effect from hyperventilation:

During hyperventilation the rate of removal of carbon dioxide from the blood is increased. As the partial pressure of carbon dioxide in the blood decreases, respiratory alkalosis, characterised by decreased acidity or increased alkalinity of the blood, ensues. In turn, alkalosis causes constriction of the small blood vessels that supply the brain.

At the end of the 19th Century, carbon dioxide was found to influence the bond between oxygen and haemoglobin. If the levels of carbon dioxide in arterial blood are lower than normal, this leads to difficulties in releasing oxygen from haemoglobin. This is known as the Bohr Effect, first described by Christian Bohr in 1904.

i guess it's from PPH, my old screenshot, not sure about how correct it is

 

[outrider567]

Question

During the recommended process to successfully ctb with exit bag and nitrogen , it's recommended to hyperventilate, then exhale all air out of lungs , then take deepest breath possible ..

why would it not be recommended to exhale all the air out of your lungs , and THEN literally fight the urge to breathe for a while , maybe even as long as you can …THEN when desperate for air , pull bag down and take the deepest breath possible.

Seems to me your way more likely to quickly die, and quickly black out …

Am I missing something ?

I didn't hyperventilate, nor did I take deep breaths, and still my Oxygen plummeted from 98 to 40 in 30 seconds at 25 LPM, Nitrogen is more lethal and is more effective at ridding the body of Oxygen than most people realize

 

[kudaphillips]

I didn't hyperventilate, nor did I take deep breaths, and still my Oxygen plummeted from 98 to 40 in 30 seconds at 25 LPM, Nitrogen is more lethal and is more effective at ridding the body of Oxygen than most people realize

What about 15 lpm? I spent a lot on this max dog regulator now I'm seeing stuff about 20-25 lpm

I didn't hyperventilate, nor did I take deep breaths, and still my Oxygen plummeted from 98 to 40 in 30 seconds at 25 LPM, Nitrogen is more lethal and is more effective at ridding the body of Oxygen than most people realize

I'll just buy one, could this be right ? Only 22$??

 

[outrider567]

What about 15 lpm? I spent a lot on this max dog regulator now I'm seeing stuff about 20-25 lpm

View attachment 137160

I'll just buy one, could this be right ? Only 22$??

Mad Dog Regulators are supposedly unreliable, as per Greenberg, I wasted $330 on one--Even tho it was supposed to be a Nitrogen Regulator, it said 'Oxygen Regulator' on it

What about 15 lpm? I spent a lot on this max dog regulator now I'm seeing stuff about 20-25 lpm

View attachment 137160

I'll just buy one, could this be right ? Only 22$??

15 LPM is still perfectly acceptable to CTB, as per Greenberg--My tests with 15 LPM were almost the same as 25 LPM--I'll only use 25 LPM because I have a big tank, 2200 Liters of Nitrogen

 

[kudaphillips]

Mad Dog Regulators are supposedly unreliable, as per Greenberg, I wasted $330 on one--Even tho it was supposed to be a Nitrogen Regulator, it said 'Oxygen Regulator' on it

15 LPM is still perfectly acceptable to CTB, as per Greenberg--My tests with 15 LPM were almost the same as 25 LPM--I'll only use 25 LPM because I have a big tank, 2200 Liters of Nitrogen

Actually ya, mine says oxygen on it and it doesn't even say max dog..but I ordered it from them

 

[rigbone]

US SCBA:
Drager 2216 psi PAS Lite
Drager FPS 7000(R56200)
CGA-580 to CGA-346 adapter
~2000$

US hood setup:
Drager rescue hood~250$
Drager CEJN 344 coupler~140$
ACU-200 reg~100$
Middle adapter(CGA-032 to 1/4 NPT)~15$

Both will kill you,the choice is yours

Looking at the pics of PAS Lite models sold by US vendors, the connection appears to be male, which wouldn't pair with the CGA-580 to CGA-346 adapter as it is also male. Below is a pic from a vendor's site of the tank connector on a PAS Lite (PN 3358743), and the "Western Enterprises#830, PKGD: Adaptor CGA-580-346" adaptor that I have. I don't have the PAS Lite yet as I am not sure that it will be compatible with the CGA-580 to CGA-346 adapter.

 

[Authentic13]

What kind of method are you considering which doesn't purge the co2, just a bag?

The unconsciousness from inert hypoxia is a result of to little oxygen to support cognitive functions and basically shuts down to save resources. If there are any involuntary reflexes they would be quite basic and easily stopped with some tie downs on the hands.

But with a high co2 level the body respond much more drastically since it's highly aware of the immediate danger it's under. Even if you would last so long that your the brink of unconsciousness, it's quite possible the last cognitive thought would be to rip of the bag/hood whatever to survive. You can't trust the body to reason when the survival instincts kicks in and takes over rational thoughts.

That's the real benefit of inert gas, your body doesn't know only your mind.

Thanks a bunch for that response Kap. It sort of confirms what I've been thinking as a result of reading here.

 

[k1w1]

What about 15 lpm? I spent a lot on this max dog regulator now I'm seeing stuff about 20-25 lpm

View attachment 137160

I'll just buy one, could this be right ? Only 22$??

What about 15 lpm? I spent a lot on this max dog regulator now I'm seeing stuff about 20-25 lpm

View attachment 137160

I'll just buy one, could this be right ? Only 22$??

Nitschke is just a good businessman, he oversimplifies the whole process. Yes...that regulator from Amazon with built in ball gauge is absolutely available, it is at the cheaper end but it is for one use only so should be fine. Similar are available in welding shops for under a $100 AUS.
As for his touting two breaths and one is unconcious, this definitely is not the case. Everything one needs is available ex-China including the click-style nitrogen regs....BUT, if one uses a eebd hood, or for reasons I dont understand, a MIN of 25lpm would be my recommended flow....more with a bigger tank. I found myself starving for gas at 15lpm, no leaks, well put together system.

ok… new member longtime suicide venturer but I have ridiculous SI , huge fear of failure and being vegetable because I do not trust anything in life especially after how it's gone . To wimpy for firearms but might go this route because less chance of SI ruining the attempt , but it's freaking tough to do. Prob got mentally closest with shotgun method , Nembutal owner but can't figure out the exit test kits, never works, and my brain is fucked and doesn't metabolize drugs correctly and I get horrendous unspeakable reactions from this drug class ( gaba agonists ) . Anyway…the exit bag method

I've had a 20 cf nitrogen tank for a few years , made several exit bags , different elastics , headband , I pull it over my head most nights to try and get used to it , never started the gas though. After reading through the thread I decided to get a 40 cf , starting to feel a little better about it because gas running out was a large fear. My questions are

1. Size of the chord..I cannot find a toggle large enough for the half inch elastic recommend …anywhere ..tried hard… I have pretty small elastic( less than the recommended 5/8 inch), but this shouldn't really matter right ? As long as not too tight and not too lose , you should be able to slip a finger under it , it should be fine ? This doesn't seem to be a main source of failure but want to make sure

2. Gone crazy with the step of taping the tubing to the bag. Ppeh had a ridiculous complex explanation of this ( cut two slits in duct tape and feed a wire tie through it ) etc, also says the Betty video shows how to do this..took me forever to find the Betty video and it doesn't say anything about this . Shouldn't you just tape the tube inside the bag 5-8 cm from ththe bottom and that be totally fine ?this shouldn't matter much I feel?

3.the use of micropore tape. I feel it sticks pretty well…but duct tape and packing tape seem to stick way better ..is there a reason other than sticking power that these tapes aren't used?

4. Failures.. and why they happen. If the nitrogen is tested,40 cf tank, max dog regulator at 15 lpm, turkey exit bag made correctly , bag filled up till it's like a balloon on forehead, rapid hyper breathing for 2 minutes, huge exhale even longer than you usually exhale , then biggest breath you can possibly take , sitting upright in a chair , tank strapped down so it won't fall, this shouldn't fail right?
I think maybe people don't take a big enough breath and it takes longer to blackout and they get SI ?
For something such heavily advocated in th community , I see an awful lot of failure stories , some horror stories with the brain damage . I understand there's failure with any method and it's just about finding one you're comfortable with to do nature best chance

5. Is it a good practice to follow the procedure , and if you don't pass out in a breath or two than bail on the attempt ? This thinking I feel will help my SI restrictions possibly. Or is this not recommended ? I've seen people say you don't get brain damage unless you pass out , and the attempt is subsequently botched for other reasons

Passing out in 'a breath or two is a myth started by PPH. We are all different. I started to fade in 30 sec. Like yourself I tend towards bigger is better with the tank. But the fact remains noone can survive without oxygen for more than 15 mins.

 

[kudaphillips]

Nitschke is just a good businessman, he oversimplifies the whole process. Yes...that regulator from Amazon with built in ball gauge is absolutely available, it is at the cheaper end but it is for one use only so should be fine. Similar are available in welding shops for under a $100 AUS.
As for his touting two breaths and one is unconcious, this definitely is not the case. Everything one needs is available ex-China including the click-style nitrogen regs....BUT, if one uses a eebd hood, or for reasons I dont understand, a MIN of 25lpm would be my recommended flow....more with a bigger tank. I found myself starving for gas at 15lpm, no leaks, well put together system.

Passing out in 'a breath or two is a myth started by PPH. We are all different. I started to fade in 30 sec. Like yourself I tend towards bigger is better with the tank. But the fact remains noone can survive without oxygen for more than 15 mins.

Thanks so much for the reply.
So what I gather is that those cheap argon regulators with flowmeter of 25lpm in your opinion will suffice for eebd / exit bag, since they basically only getting single or just a few uses.


Hearing a lot of not great stuff about nitchke lately…so while he may be over simplifying how quickly you pass out and die , do you see any issues with his general exit bag procedure, other than maybe a higher recommended LPM flow?

 

[limeoctave]

I recently haggled and was able to buy a new Drager Saver SF on the secondary market for about 20 euros. I had a hard time putting it on and had a hard time taking it off. It fits very snugly on my head, I wasn't expecting that. There is no connector on the end of the hose, I think only the Drager PSS hood has one. I don't have a caliper, I measured with a regular ruler and I got that the inside diameter of the hose is about 7 millimeters, it's probably 1/4 inch. I have attached a couple of pictures for those who might be interested in looking at it
View attachment 125959View attachment 125960
View attachment 125969

i got the same hood. just to addition to previous post, the inner hose diameter is 7.3 mm, outer diameter is 13.3 mm, and the length of the hose is 75 cm

 

[kudaphillips]

Is there any concern of pets being killed by large amounts of nitrogen being released into the house? I had zero concern about this with 20cf and 40cf, but I'm considering using 80 cf depending on method , and don't want cats to die

 

[itsme777]

Is there any video or image showing how tightly to close the exit bag?

 

[kudaphillips]

Is there any video or image showing how tightly to close the exit bag?

Man we picked the wrong time to be active in this thread . Vizzy, gasmonkey prob woulda had a great answer for this. I think practicing and making sure there's positive pressure, enough to inflate the bag fully , but purge enough at the bottom to where the bag isn't popping, and to error on th side of to loose rather than to tight .

 

[kudaphillips]

I got eebd hood in like less than a week from china, pretty amazing . Here's the setup. Tbh..I don't like it , the purge valve works if it snug it up against my face in 5 perfect spot, but if I move a little bit, my exhales purge through the sides of the orinasal mask.

 

[outrider567]

I got eebd hood in like less than a week from china, pretty amazing . Here's the setup. Tbh..I don't like it , the purge valve works if it snug it up against my face in 5 perfect spot, but if I move a little bit, my exhales purge through the sides of the orinasal mask.
View attachment 137977

looks similar to mine

 

[limeoctave]

I got eebd hood in like less than a week from china, pretty amazing . Here's the setup. Tbh..I don't like it , the purge valve works if it snug it up against my face in 5 perfect spot, but if I move a little bit, my exhales purge through the sides of the orinasal mask.
View attachment 137977

can you show your connection between hoses? if you don't mind

btw i have eebd hood as well and in mine also not all exhaled air goes through exhalation valve, but maybe if there will be nitrogen flow to hood, then the purge will be better, but idk

how did you test it? without air flow?

 

[kudaphillips]

can you show your connection between hoses? if you don't mind

btw i have eebd hood as well and in mine also not all exhaled air goes through exhalation valve, but maybe if there will be nitrogen flow to hood, then the purge will be better, but idk

how did you test it? without air flow?

Yes without air flow, yes maybe it functions better with pressure . I think gas monkey might have said something about this but everything is a blur so much information .
So the connection between the hoses, I'll,probably just use hose clamps , but I don't think it's gonna leak even without them it was pretty hard to get the hoses on the ferrule , I kinda stopped putting it together because I think I'm gonna feel more comfortable with exit bag tbh, overkill with the cylinder, at a higher lpm flow .

 

[limeoctave]

Yes without air flow, yes maybe it functions better with pressure . I think gas monkey might have said something about this but everything is a blur so much information .
So the connection between the hoses, I'll,probably just use hose clamps , but I don't think it's gonna leak even without them it was pretty hard to get the hoses on the ferrule , I kinda stopped putting it together because I think I'm gonna feel more comfortable with exit bag tbh, overkill with the cylinder, at a higher lpm flow .View attachment 137984

thank you

 

[final weekz]

Hello everybody. I just got 1400L of N2 (it was the smallest amount i could get lol) but aint no way im finding a flowmeter before my birthday (3 weeks) so i want to ask the experts here if you think i could just use a pressure controller and just use an airflow that seems right? (not so little that the bag loses volume and not so much that it poops). Or maybe a bit more of the usual as i have 1400L

 

[kudaphillips]

Hello everybody. I just got 1400L of N2 (it was the smallest amount i could get lol) but aint no way im finding a flowmeter before my birthday (3 weeks) so i want to ask the experts here if you think i could just use a pressure controller and just use an airflow that seems right? (not so little that the bag loses volume and not so much that it poops). Or maybe a bit more of the usual as i have 1400L

Why can't you get a flowmeter sooner than 3 weeks? Im not a pro but no one is gonna recommend doing this without a flowmeter .