Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[AnonAnon1234]

I should have clarified that the 2L cylinder I paid for only incurs a rental charge if the empty cylinder is not returned or refilled within 24 months. So there's no monthly or yearly rent charge. A yearly rental charge only kicks in after the 24 months if I haven't returned/refilled the cylinder.

Yeah, I guess if you're not ctb any time soon then buying a cylinder outright suits better.

Got me thinking I'd better check my paperwork. I'm sure I just paid more upfront and there's not even a 24 month limit before it needs returning/refilling. Cheers.

 

[Falling Slowly]

Got me thinking I'd better check my paperwork. I'm sure I just paid more upfront and there's not even a 24 month limit before it needs returning/refilling. Cheers.

So you've currently got a 2L cylinder and are gonna do tests for the time being?
What method/setup are you going to go with?

 

[AnonAnon1234]

So you've currently got a 2L cylinder and are gonna do tests for the time being?
What method/setup are you going to go with?

Correct. Got to test my regulator, flow rates, hood etc. Just using a regular home made hood rather than scuba or other masks I've seen of the forum. Then get the cylinder refilled when needed.

 

[DeadHead]

Came across eBay sellers that ship to EU. Do none of them ship to UK since Brexit?

The 2L nitrogen cylinder I'm refilling is a rental. I've decided to cancel the refill order, and get a 9L instead. Though I might buy a 9L outright online as opposed to rental.

You say that a rental is no good for a person looking to ctb like you. After you ctb the cylinder can obviously be returned by others. Are you taking into consideration that the company may be told afterwards that it was used to ctb? And are worried about the impact on seller?
And/or that there may be a clampdown on future sales/rental to individuals? Or are you just worried about a rental not being returned after you ctb? ( The cylinder I rented has a tag around it stating that it's the property of the vendor I bought it from. You could obviously leave a note asking for its return).

None of the above, it's that my affairs are very complex and the person executing my will already has their hands full with their own problems, selling my house, disposing of my assets, applying for probate, dealing with my tax affairs, etc. I don't care about not getting the deposit back, it was the fact this one supplier says in their terms they will start legal proceedings if you dont return it in a year, i don't need legal proceedings against my deceased estate.

I'm UK based as well and found a 2L at 200bar was the most accessible as I am not a business. The legal proceedings for not returning cylinders is because most gas suppliers make money from a rental model where a business rents the cylinder for a set time then gets a new one so you can't keep the cylinder. This of course is no good for a person looking to ctb such as me.

There are sources that offer rent free gas cylinders and don't need to be a business but I found you either get a small (but still enough for the job) cylinder or a massive cylinder. So I'm testing my set up/equipment with a small cylinder then having it refilled when the time comes.

The 'bar' is simply how much pressure the gas inside the cylinder is under. The more pressure, the more gas can be fit into a cylinder. So for example:
2 litres at 1 bar = 2 litres of gas
2 litres at 137 bar = 274 litres of gas
2 litres at 200 bar = 400 litres of gas

Thanks, so bar is irrelevant in terms of flow rate and other things? I can find a 2litre at 200 bar but some people say that's not enough. But I can't find a 5l or 10l at 200bar

 

[AnonAnon1234]

Thanks, so bar is irrelevant in terms of flow rate and other things? I can find a 2litre at 200 bar but some people say that's not enough. But I can't find a 5l or 10l at 200bar

Correct. Bar won't affect flow rate etc, it just helps fit more gas into a given container. Your cylinder doesn't NEED to be 200 bar. What's more important is how many litres of gas you have in whatever size cylinder you choose.

2 litres at 200 bar is 400 litres. At a flow rate of 15 litres a minute that's 26.6 minutes worth of gas. That's more than enough to ctb as long as you've ensured your hood doesn't have leaks for example and start with a full tank when you want to ctb. That's what I'm doing, completing tests etc knowing I'll have to have it refilled later.

9 litres at 137 bar is the other common size I came across which is around 1,200 litres. At the same flow rate that's 80 minutes worth of gas. So far more gas to play with for testing etc and probably still have more than enough to ctb.

 

[DeadHead]

Correct. Bar won't affect flow rate etc, it just helps fit more gas into a given container. Your cylinder doesn't NEED to be 200 bar. What's more important is how many litres of gas you have in whatever size cylinder you choose.

2 litres at 200 bar is 400 litres. At a flow rate of 15 litres a minute that's 26.6 minutes worth of gas. That's more than enough to ctb as long as you've ensured your hood doesn't have leaks for example and start with a full tank when you want to ctb. That's what I'm doing, completing tests etc knowing I'll have to have it refilled later.

9 litres at 137 bar is the other common size I came across which is around 1,200 litres. At the same flow rate that's 80 minutes worth of gas. So far more gas to play with for testing etc and probably still have more than enough to ctb.

Thanks for clarifying. I plan to use an argon regulator so I believe the flow rate needs to be set slightly differently but it won't be that much different from what you've explained very well.

 

[cerealandmilk]

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for someone attempting this method to have.

The idea behind using an exit bag with inert gas is to create an atmosphere around your head that is both free of life-sustaining O2 and can carry away the exhaled CO2 that would activate your hypercapnic alarm.

The Gas:

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you’ll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas. In the past this would have been helium (He), but due to the uncertain availability of genuinely pure He, the best current options are nitrogen (N2) and argon (Ar). Both are reliably available in pure form (no air contamination) from stores that supply welders. N2 is also available from some brewery supply houses, but the purity of the gas should be confirmed to your satisfaction. Both N2 and Ar should work to ctb and are similar enough in their properties to be treated identically for use with an exit bag.

Pressurized gas cylinder sizes are not standardized across the industry, nor internationally, and it can be difficult, if not impossible, to tell how much gas they contain from a photograph on a website.

In the US, a 20 cubic foot (cf) cylinder is the smallest you should use for ctb; a 40cf will allow some margin for flinching, practicing, etc. “A 20cf” and “a 40cf”, or “a 20” and “a 40” is nomenclature US welding supply houses will recognize, so asking for either should get you the desired product. A 20cf cylinder is quite small for industrial use; I’ve had clerks tell me, “well, we have a 40, but we’ll need to special order a 20.” It’s up to you what you do in that situation. Personally, I have a 40cf cylinder. It has allowed me to flinch and abort my attempt three times now, and I don’t need to worry about refilling it. I bought my N2 at AirGas, a national company here in the US. They do not demand any sort of professional certification for purchasing inert gas, and no more than the usual forms of ID depending on payment method.

I know nothing of gas cylinders outside the US, so if you are using other than US-typical cylinders, you’ll need to call and ask to make sure whatever tank you’re contemplating holds 600L of compressed gas. Hopefully knowledgeable forum members will add cylinder sizing information to this knowledge base.

Cover story: N2 and Ar are both used for welding. N2 is used in beer brewing. In my day job, I use both N2 and Ar to flood partial cans of expensive paint, to displace the O2 in the cans and prevent the paint from skinning over and going bad. It’s a cost saving measure. The clerks I’ve bought gas from have never heard of that trick, which has meant they don’t know enough to interrogate me on my motives or to try and quiz me on my welding knowledge. They have merely said, “huh! That’s a new one!”

The store clerk may ask how you’re carrying the pressurized cylinder “back to your shop,” since pressurized cylinders can be very hazardous to transport (the valve is vulnerable to damage in an accident). I haven’t had any trouble when I have told the clerk, “in the back footwell of my car, and very carefully padded!” What they really want to know is that you are aware that a pressurized cylinder is a missile waiting to explode if anything damages it, and that you know enough to not let that happen.

Thanks for the detailed message, this or beachy is my approach

 

[AnonAnon1234]

Thanks for clarifying. I plan to use an argon regulator so I believe the flow rate needs to be set slightly differently but it won't be that much different from what you've explained very well.

Correct. From everything I've read the difference between Argon & Nitrogen is so marginal that regulators for each are interchangeable and 15 litres per minute flow rate applies to both.

Thanks for the compliment on the clarity of my posts 😊

 

[Falling Slowly]

None of the above, it's that my affairs are very complex and the person executing my will already has their hands full with their own problems, selling my house, disposing of my assets, applying for probate, dealing with my tax affairs, etc. I don't care about not getting the deposit back, it was the fact this one supplier says in their terms they will start legal proceedings if you dont return it in a year, i don't need legal proceedings against my deceased estate.

Without getting into your personal affairs, do bank accounts not close after someones death? And funds transferred?

It seems that I can only get nitrogen cylinders on rental in my country, can't buy outright. And when looking up cylinders for sale in the EU that ship to here, they all seem to have an EU standard connection on their cylinders, not British standard. The regulator I have has a BSP ( British standard ) connection, so it won't fit an EU standard cylinder.
I'm not sure of adapters that convert EU standard to British standard for cylinder connections. Seem hard to get.

I think I'll just stick to rental (9L) , dispose of anything that mentions the vendor, and maybe not mention the return of the cylinder at all. I presume my bank account will be closed, and vendor can't pursue.

I think it may be for the best for a vendor not to know that his product was used for ctb.

 

[DeadHead]

Without getting into your personal affairs, do bank accounts not close after someones death? And funds transferred?

It seems that I can only get nitrogen cylinders on rental in my country, can't buy outright. And when looking up cylinders for sale in the EU that ship to here, they all seem to have an EU standard connection on their cylinders, not British standard. The regulator I have has a BSP ( British standard ) connection, so it won't fit an EU standard cylinder.
I'm not sure of adapters that convert EU standard to British standard for cylinder connections. Seem hard to get.

I think I'll just stick to rental (9L) , dispose of anything that mentions the vendor, and maybe not mention the return of the cylinder at all. I presume my bank account will be closed, and vendor can't pursue.

I think it may be for the best for a vendor not to know that his product was used for ctb.

No your account is not just closed. Your direct debits still go out, etc until your executor applies for probate. It can take a long time. Then once probate has been completed, your executor arranges transfer of your funds in accordance with your will- after any debts,tax etc has been settled.

 

[cerealandmilk]

Probably going with this method but it will take long to gather everything together

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for someone attempting this method to have.

The idea behind using an exit bag with inert gas is to create an atmosphere around your head that is both free of life-sustaining O2 and can carry away the exhaled CO2 that would activate your hypercapnic alarm.

The Gas:

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you’ll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas. In the past this would have been helium (He), but due to the uncertain availability of genuinely pure He, the best current options are nitrogen (N2) and argon (Ar). Both are reliably available in pure form (no air contamination) from stores that supply welders. N2 is also available from some brewery supply houses, but the purity of the gas should be confirmed to your satisfaction. Both N2 and Ar should work to ctb and are similar enough in their properties to be treated identically for use with an exit bag.

Pressurized gas cylinder sizes are not standardized across the industry, nor internationally, and it can be difficult, if not impossible, to tell how much gas they contain from a photograph on a website.

In the US, a 20 cubic foot (cf) cylinder is the smallest you should use for ctb; a 40cf will allow some margin for flinching, practicing, etc. “A 20cf” and “a 40cf”, or “a 20” and “a 40” is nomenclature US welding supply houses will recognize, so asking for either should get you the desired product. A 20cf cylinder is quite small for industrial use; I’ve had clerks tell me, “well, we have a 40, but we’ll need to special order a 20.” It’s up to you what you do in that situation. Personally, I have a 40cf cylinder. It has allowed me to flinch and abort my attempt three times now, and I don’t need to worry about refilling it. I bought my N2 at AirGas, a national company here in the US. They do not demand any sort of professional certification for purchasing inert gas, and no more than the usual forms of ID depending on payment method.

I know nothing of gas cylinders outside the US, so if you are using other than US-typical cylinders, you’ll need to call and ask to make sure whatever tank you’re contemplating holds 600L of compressed gas. Hopefully knowledgeable forum members will add cylinder sizing information to this knowledge base.

Cover story: N2 and Ar are both used for welding. N2 is used in beer brewing. In my day job, I use both N2 and Ar to flood partial cans of expensive paint, to displace the O2 in the cans and prevent the paint from skinning over and going bad. It’s a cost saving measure. The clerks I’ve bought gas from have never heard of that trick, which has meant they don’t know enough to interrogate me on my motives or to try and quiz me on my welding knowledge. They have merely said, “huh! That’s a new one!”

The store clerk may ask how you’re carrying the pressurized cylinder “back to your shop,” since pressurized cylinders can be very hazardous to transport (the valve is vulnerable to damage in an accident). I haven’t had any trouble when I have told the clerk, “in the back footwell of my car, and very carefully padded!” What they really want to know is that you are aware that a pressurized cylinder is a missile waiting to explode if anything damages it, and that you know enough to not let that happen.

 

[Eudaimonic]

is it really contain that much gas? it's a small tank only weight 11kg.

Given those numbers, yes.

i can afford these two, are these ok?
is regulator really needed? there's a knob on top of the canister.
is there anything else that i should know, like connectors type or something?

For an exit bag, you don't need a pressure regulator, only a flow regulator. A pressure regulator is needed for SCUBA/SCBA because of the demand valve.

 

[Das Nichts]

For an exit bag, you don't need a pressure regulator, only a flow regulator. A pressure regulator is needed for SCUBA/SCBA because of the demand valve.

Pressure regulator is a viable term. To be pendantic you need a pressure regulator/reducer with a flowmeter.

 

[リンさん]

Will buying Nitrogen raise any suspicions? What should I say if someone asks me the purpose of purchasing it?

For reference, I’m a woman living in Eastern Europe. I definitely don’t come off as a professional lol.

 

[anonaon]

Will buying Nitrogen raise any suspicions?

Not really

What should I say if someone asks me the purpose of purchasing it?

Nitrogen has a lot of food applications like making cold brew coffee at home or preserving bulked goods like beans, wheat, even chips...

If youre confident enough you can even make up random bs like trying to create a cyrogenic reptile tank for your new pet snake or smth

 

[curtaincall]

Does the cylinder have to be vertical?

I may need to put it on its side. Online advice says don’t do this but does anyone know if it really has any impact?

 

[outrider567]

Does the cylinder have to be vertical?

I may need to put it on its side. Online advice says don’t do this but does anyone know if it really has any impact?

no idea, but mine will be standing up

 

[sensenmann]

Does the cylinder have to be vertical?

I may need to put it on its side. Online advice says don’t do this but does anyone know if it really has any impact?

It should be stored vertical for long term, when transporting it is fine to put horizontal if the transport cap is screwed on.

When it is horizontal, there is more pressure being put on the valve, and that get dangerous if there is liquid gas in the cylinder.

 

[Mare Imbrium]

When it is horizontal, there is more pressure being put on the valve, and that get dangerous if there is liquid gas in the cylinder.
[/QUOTE]
I think gas, that is not liquid, like Nitrogen, can be used horizontal?

 

[Falling Slowly]

In previous posts, some people were wondering about the coupling/coupler that goes with a Scott 3M ELSA hood hose connection, to hook up to a regulator with a BSP (British Standard) connection. The Rectus 95ks female coupling DOES fit that hood hose connection, I checked it today. (Mine is a 3/8" female coupling that hooks up to a regulator with a 3/8" outlet. )

So any hood/mask with a CEN-type hose connection, use a Rectus 95ks coupling with a British standard regulator; in the U.S. use a CEJN 340 series female coupling to hook up to a U.S. standard regulator.

And if your hood hose is too short, just buy a 3M Scott extension hose with the same CEN-type connection. No need to go cutting hoses and messing with adapters, it's all click-and- connect from hose to coupling/coupler. Then screw on the coupler to the regulator.

Thanks to @GasMonkey and others for pointing me in the right direction for that coupling.

 

[sensenmann]

When it is horizontal, there is more pressure being put on the valve, and that get dangerous if there is liquid gas in the cylinder.

I think gas, that is not liquid, like Nitrogen, can be used horizontal?
[/QUOTE]
It should be fine, just secure it somehow to make sure it doesn't roll away.

 

[Willthishelp?]

both will do the job but the 5L cylinder provides a greater safety margin

Is 5 liter enough for eebd?

 

[Falling Slowly]

Is 5 liter enough for eebd? 2

Plenty enough. 2 litre is probably enough if you have your setup done properly and don't waste any gas. But I switched from a 2 litre to a 9 litre(next one up in the place I purchased) just to give room to test the whole setup out, and not be worried I don't have enough gas to ctb.

 

[Willthishelp?]

Plenty enough. 2 litre is probably enough if you have your setup done properly and don't waste any gas. But I switched from a 2 litre to a 9 litre(next one up in the place I purchased) just to give room to test the whole setup out, and not be worried I don't have enough gas to ctb.

I am still scared it’s not enough.. it’s only like 40 minutes at 25 lpm right

 

[Falling Slowly]

I am still scared it’s not enough.. it’s only like 40 minutes at 25 lpm right

Well, according to the PPH, death from hypoxia occurs in 5-10 mins (@15 LPM). So 40 mins at 25 lpm is plenty.

 

[ipmanwc0]

Do people favor SCBA/SCUBA/EEBD over the exit bag because they're more reliable? Additionally, after reading PPH I inferred that with the exit bag you can pull it down and take a deep breath and lose consciousness after only a couple breaths whereas SCBA/SCUBA/EEBD takes at least 30 seconds. So with the latter, you are more likely to succeed but have half a minute of discomfort and time to back out (which is I consider a bad thing)? Also SCBA/SCUBA/EEBD needs a higher flow rate (25 lpm vs exit bag 15lpm according to pph)? Please advise in detail and thank you.

 

[outrider567]

Do people favor SCBA/SCUBA/EEBD over the exit bag because they're more reliable? Additionally, after reading PPH I inferred that with the exit bag you can pull it down and take a deep breath and lose consciousness after only a couple breaths whereas SCBA/SCUBA/EEBD takes at least 30 seconds. So with the latter, you are more likely to succeed but have half a minute of discomfort and time to back out (which is I consider a bad thing)? Also SCBA/SCUBA/EEBD needs a higher flow rate (25 lpm vs exit bag 15lpm according to pph)? Please advise in detail and thank you.

EEBD Hood does not need a higher flow rate, 15 LPM is fine(but be warned at testing it on yourself at 25 LPH)-- and you will not lose conciousness after just 2 breaths using the exit bag, ridiculous

 

[ipmanwc0]

EEBD Hood does not need a higher flow rate, 15 LPM is fine(but be warned at testing it on yourself at 25 LPH)-- and you will not lose conciousness after just 2 breaths using the exit bag, ridiculous

PPeH page 116 "Within one or two breaths consciousness will be lost"

 

[outrider567]

PPeH page 116 "Within one or two breaths consciousness will be lost"

Total bullshit, I've self tested many times with Exit Bags and EEBD Hood, taken 5 breaths and never came close to passing out, all but one time were at 15 LPM, and once at 25 LPM--Ask Dach Nichts how many breaths he took before he passed out(25 LPM)

 

[ipmanwc0]

Total bullshit, I've self tested many times with Exit Bags and EEBD Hood, taken 5 breaths and never came close to passing out, all but one time were at 15 LPM, and once at 25 LPM--Ask Dach Nichts how many breaths he took before he passed out(25 LPM)

Yeah you're right probably now that I think of it it doesn't actually make sense to lose consciousness that fast. Guess I blindly believed that mistake in the handbook. But still the exit bag should be faster right because it is already full of nitrogen whereas the alternatives aren't. Can you answer my other questions? Is the time before you pass out uncomfortable? Are the exit bag alternatives so much more reliable as to be worth the hassle (I'm seeing that the exit bag is just a hose whereas the alternatives require weird connections that kind of confuse me when I read about them earlier in the thread)? Is there a specific EEBD/SCUBA/SCBA that is popular/known to be reliable here?