Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[DeadHead]

The amount of liters is what matters. So a bottle of 5L 200bar contains 5*200 = 1000 Liter of uncompressed air.

Is a 5l cylinder at 137bar better than a 2l cylinder at 200bar?

 

[anonaon]

Is a 5l cylinder at 137bar better than a 2l cylinder at 200bar?

both will do the job but the 5L cylinder provides a greater safety margin

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

Is a 5l cylinder at 137bar better than a 2l cylinder at 200bar?

PPeH recommends for Europe 2L 200 bar which is 400 liters, so a bottle of 5L*137bar = 685 liter is more then they recommend. But many people here want to mitigate the risks as much as possible and go for 5L 200 bar, which I did too. It also gives you more room for testing (if you think it's necessary).

 

[Glandular]

My food grade nitrogen e945 cylinder has a best before 2026. I have to do some research into the reasoning.

According to my research Nitrogen doesn't expire in the traditional sense of the word. Since it is non-reactive it doesn't break down over time or react with anything else. However, the purity of nitrogen gas can decrease over time, due to the absorption of moisture and other gases from the atmosphere. That shelf life is only mentioned in the context of using Nitrogen for calibration. I don't think that it should matter for ctb but I think I would only use a cylinder that hasn't expired yet. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Falling Slowly]

PPeH recommends for Europe 2L 200 bar which is 400 liters, so a bottle of 5L*137bar = 685 liter is more then they recommend. But many people here want to mitigate the risks as much as possible and go for 5L 200 bar, which I did too. It also gives you more room for testing (if you think it's necessary).

I've got a 2L cylinder at 200 bar that I'm waiting to be refilled. Going by what they said in the PPeH, that 400 litres should last ~25 mins if set to 15lpm. It said that it's more than enough for a peaceful death. I'm wondering now if I should go for 5L just to be sure?

 

[outrider567]

Please PM with online suppliers of industrial inert gases. weldingsupply.com used to be a thing but it doesn't look like they ship gas anymore? In the US.

Are you in the US? Please PM with online suppliers of industrial inert gases. weldingsupply.com used to be a thing but it doesn't look like they ship gas anymore?

Is it possible to also use this method with inert gas? I like the CPAP idea



I don't know the answer to your question, but definitely curious about that as well! The CPAP masks do seem pretty bulky. Are you from the US? If so, can you message me a supplier for gas, especially if it is online. I am having a tough time finding one.

@GasMonkey can you PM me suppliers for the inert gases. I had weldingsupply.com as an option, but it looks like they don't sell it online anymore? Anyone with an idea can PM. TIA!

Thanks for this resource! so all that is needed for this method is the rebreather and nitrogen cartridges? Has anyone purchased it from their site, is it legit? Do they ship to the US?

Thanks for this resource! Has anyone bought the ReBreather online? Is this site legit? Do they ship to the US? & all you need for this method is the rebreather and nitrogen cartridge?

Same question! Please pm me if anyone knows where to get the intert gas tanks shipped to you. I am in the US, specifically AZ and it looks like airgas doesn't ship to me??

Have you found somewhere to buy online? I'm from the US too, and having the same problem. Please PM me if so!

You need 10 posts to PM

 

[NoFutureAnymore]

I've got a 2L cylinder at 200 bar that I'm waiting to be refilled. Going by what they said in the PPeH, that 400 litres should last ~25 mins if set to 15lpm. It said that it's more than enough for a peaceful death. I'm wondering now if I should go for 5L just to be sure?

No that should be sufficient, it just leaves less room for error. It also depends on the method, but if you execute it well there shouldn't be a problem:

The 40mins thing comes from the Dignitas study (where they studied subjects CTBing with Non-ReBreather masks) coz 1 subject took 40mins to die due to issues with the mask's fit/placement in the face (she had Air leaking into the mask). NRB masks, even tho they are plausible to CTB and likely to work, they are not explicitly designed to protect you from the external air and can cause issues.

Needless to say that would NEVER happen with EEBD or SCBA (or a proper ExitBag). SCBA/EEBD would be completely useless in their real world applications (firefighting and emergency escape) if they let ANY external gas to be breathed by the user.​

 

[Falling Slowly]

No that should be sufficient, it just leaves less room for error. It also depends on the method, but if you execute it well there shouldn't be a problem:

I'm hoping it'll be fine. The vendor where I bought the 2L cylinder sells 9L cylinders. I probably should have ordered one of those just to be sure.

 

[Das Nichts]

I'm hoping it'll be fine. The vendor where I bought the 2L cylinder sells 9L cylinders. I probably should have ordered one of those just to be sure.

Are you going with SCBA ?

 

[Falling Slowly]

Are you going with SCBA ?

I ordered a 3M Scott hood last week, should receive it in next couple of days. Though I was thinking over the weekend that SCBA might be the more efficient method.

 

[uniqueusername4]

There is a dedicated thread for the rebreather and the users couldn't make it work.

rebreather.

I just ordered the new rebreather. no order confirmation from the initial site and you have to use a separate site for shipping info. nothing from there either. cost me about $300+ being in the U.S. I emailed the shipping site immediately after asking for information. after reading the other...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Aw man :/ sounded too good to be true! Thanks for the info :)

You need 10 posts to PM

10 posts of my own or 10 replies?

 

[anonaon]

Aw man :/ sounded too good to be true! Thanks for the info :)

10 posts of my own or 10 replies?

Either or. Head over to the games section and come back when you have 10-30+ replies

 

[uniqueusername4]

Aw man :/ sounded too good to be true! Thanks for the info :)

10 posts of my own or 10 replies?

You need 10 posts to PM

Either or. Head over to the games section and come back when you have 10-30+ replies

Okay, thanks! :)

 

[Das Nichts]

I'm hoping it'll be fine. The vendor where I bought the 2L cylinder sells 9L cylinders. I probably should have ordered one of those just to be sure.

While 2 Liter is viable for CTB I might add a little headroom is not bad if you're getting used to the equipment. It took me some time to fill
the exit bag correctly.

 

[Rinmo]

What's your method ? Exit bag ?

Gas volume should suffice. The purity needs to be 99,8 minimum.

You need a regulator with a flowmeter otherwise you can't set lpm. If your in the us/CA you can get a reg with schf and convert that to lpm.

probably just exit bag, i'm not sure i can afford scba or eebd mask
it's 99.2%, is that okay?
and is that amount enough if the exit bag seal aren't the best?

6.7L * 137.89 bar (2000 psi = 137.89 bar) = ~924L of uncompressed gas. This is plenty. A flowmeter is needed if your setup calls for it. For example, SCUBA/SCBA does not require one (they instead require a pressure regulator since there is a demand valve), but an exit bag or constant flow hood does.

is it really contain that much gas? it's a small tank only weight 11kg.



i can afford these two, are these ok?
is regulator really needed? there's a knob on top of the canister.
is there anything else that i should know, like connectors type or something?

 

[DeadHead]

PPeH recommends for Europe 2L 200 bar which is 400 liters, so a bottle of 5L*137bar = 685 liter is more then they recommend. But many people here want to mitigate the risks as much as possible and go for 5L 200 bar, which I did too. It also gives you more room for testing (if you think it's necessary).

Can't find 5l at 200 bar, gas is hard to come by in UK as most vendors will only sell to trade addresses or have this weird thing where they will start legal proceedings against you if you don't return the cylinder within a certain period.

both will do the job but the 5L cylinder provides a greater safety margin

so the fact the bar is different doesn't matter?

 

[Das Nichts]

it's 99.2%, is that okay?

Nope, like I said a *minimum* of 99,8!

is it really contain that much gas? it's a small tank only weight 11kg.

The gas is compressed at 200 bar pressure. Ambient pressure at sea level (the air that you breathe) is 1,01325 bar. Go figure.

is regulator really needed? there's a knob on top of the canister.

Of course! If you try to breathe 200bar you will rupture you're lungs.

is there anything else that i should know, like connectors type or something?

A lot, in fact. Go read the PPH intert gas chapter first. It's linked in the resource section of this forum.

so the fact the bar is different doesn't matter?

The bar is the indication how much compressed the gas is in the cylinder. The higher the compression is the more water volume you have.

5L * 200 bar ~ 1000 litres
5L * 150 bar ~ 750 litres

 

[AnonAnon1234]

Can't find 5l at 200 bar, gas is hard to come by in UK as most vendors will only sell to trade addresses or have this weird thing where they will start legal proceedings against you if you don't return the cylinder within a certain period.

so the fact the bar is different doesn't matter?

I'm UK based as well and found a 2L at 200bar was the most accessible as I am not a business. The legal proceedings for not returning cylinders is because most gas suppliers make money from a rental model where a business rents the cylinder for a set time then gets a new one so you can't keep the cylinder. This of course is no good for a person looking to ctb such as me.

There are sources that offer rent free gas cylinders and don't need to be a business but I found you either get a small (but still enough for the job) cylinder or a massive cylinder. So I'm testing my set up/equipment with a small cylinder then having it refilled when the time comes.

The 'bar' is simply how much pressure the gas inside the cylinder is under. The more pressure, the more gas can be fit into a cylinder. So for example:
2 litres at 1 bar = 2 litres of gas
2 litres at 137 bar = 274 litres of gas
2 litres at 200 bar = 400 litres of gas

 

[Falling Slowly]

Can't find 5l at 200 bar, gas is hard to come by in UK as most vendors will only sell to trade addresses or have this weird thing where they will start legal proceedings against you if you don't return the cylinder within a certain period.

Came across eBay sellers that ship to EU. Do none of them ship to UK since Brexit?

I'm UK based as well and found a 2L at 200bar was the most accessible as I am not a business. The legal proceedings for not returning cylinders is because most gas suppliers make money from a rental model where a business rents the cylinder for a set time then gets a new one so you can't keep the cylinder. This of course is no good for a person looking to ctb such as me.

2 litres at 200 bar = 400 litres of gas

The 2L nitrogen cylinder I'm refilling is a rental. I've decided to cancel the refill order, and get a 9L instead. Though I might buy a 9L outright online as opposed to rental.

You say that a rental is no good for a person looking to ctb like you. After you ctb the cylinder can obviously be returned by others. Are you taking into consideration that the company may be told afterwards that it was used to ctb? And are worried about the impact on seller?
And/or that there may be a clampdown on future sales/rental to individuals? Or are you just worried about a rental not being returned after you ctb? ( The cylinder I rented has a tag around it stating that it's the property of the vendor I bought it from. You could obviously leave a note asking for its return).

 

[AnonAnon1234]

The 2L nitrogen cylinder I'm refilling is a rental. I've decided to cancel the refill order, and get a 9L instead. Though I might buy a 9L outright online as opposed to rental.

You say that a rental is no good for a person looking to ctb like you. After you ctb the cylinder can obviously be returned by others. Are you taking into consideration that the company may be told afterwards that it was used to ctb? And are worried about the impact on seller?
And/or that there may be a clampdown on future sales/rental to individuals? Or are you just worried about a rental not being returned after you ctb? ( The cylinder I rented has a tag around it stating that it's the property of the vendor I bought it from. You could obviously leave a note asking for its return).

A bit of poor wording on my part. I think rent free is a better option for a few reasons:

- Gives you time to test, tinker, plan etc without paying each month. I'm not looking to ctb immediately. If you are I guess it makes no difference.
- The supplier won't come chasing if they don't get their cylinder back in time. So if someone ctb's and they don't get a cylinder back then find it's been used inappropriately they might tighten their policies.
- Whereas if you've paid for the cylinder it still belongs to them but they'll never come looking for it (and probably make more money by keeping your deposit).

 

[Falling Slowly]

A bit of poor wording on my part. I think rent free is a better option for a few reasons:

- Gives you time to test, tinker, plan etc without paying each month. I'm not looking to ctb immediately. If you are I guess it makes no difference.
- The supplier won't come chasing if they don't get their cylinder back in time. So if someone ctb's and they don't get a cylinder back then find it's been used inappropriately they might tighten their policies.
- Whereas if you've paid for the cylinder it still belongs to them but they'll never come looking for it (and probably make more money by keeping your deposit).

I should have clarified that the 2L cylinder I paid for only incurs a rental charge if the empty cylinder is not returned or refilled within 24 months. So there's no monthly or yearly rent charge. A yearly rental charge only kicks in after the 24 months if I haven't returned/refilled the cylinder.

Yeah, I guess if you're not ctb any time soon then buying a cylinder outright suits better.

 

[AnonAnon1234]

I should have clarified that the 2L cylinder I paid for only incurs a rental charge if the empty cylinder is not returned or refilled within 24 months. So there's no monthly or yearly rent charge. A yearly rental charge only kicks in after the 24 months if I haven't returned/refilled the cylinder.

Yeah, I guess if you're not ctb any time soon then buying a cylinder outright suits better.

Got me thinking I'd better check my paperwork. I'm sure I just paid more upfront and there's not even a 24 month limit before it needs returning/refilling. Cheers.

 

[Falling Slowly]

Got me thinking I'd better check my paperwork. I'm sure I just paid more upfront and there's not even a 24 month limit before it needs returning/refilling. Cheers.

So you've currently got a 2L cylinder and are gonna do tests for the time being?
What method/setup are you going to go with?

 

[AnonAnon1234]

So you've currently got a 2L cylinder and are gonna do tests for the time being?
What method/setup are you going to go with?

Correct. Got to test my regulator, flow rates, hood etc. Just using a regular home made hood rather than scuba or other masks I've seen of the forum. Then get the cylinder refilled when needed.

 

[DeadHead]

Came across eBay sellers that ship to EU. Do none of them ship to UK since Brexit?

The 2L nitrogen cylinder I'm refilling is a rental. I've decided to cancel the refill order, and get a 9L instead. Though I might buy a 9L outright online as opposed to rental.

You say that a rental is no good for a person looking to ctb like you. After you ctb the cylinder can obviously be returned by others. Are you taking into consideration that the company may be told afterwards that it was used to ctb? And are worried about the impact on seller?
And/or that there may be a clampdown on future sales/rental to individuals? Or are you just worried about a rental not being returned after you ctb? ( The cylinder I rented has a tag around it stating that it's the property of the vendor I bought it from. You could obviously leave a note asking for its return).

None of the above, it's that my affairs are very complex and the person executing my will already has their hands full with their own problems, selling my house, disposing of my assets, applying for probate, dealing with my tax affairs, etc. I don't care about not getting the deposit back, it was the fact this one supplier says in their terms they will start legal proceedings if you dont return it in a year, i don't need legal proceedings against my deceased estate.

I'm UK based as well and found a 2L at 200bar was the most accessible as I am not a business. The legal proceedings for not returning cylinders is because most gas suppliers make money from a rental model where a business rents the cylinder for a set time then gets a new one so you can't keep the cylinder. This of course is no good for a person looking to ctb such as me.

There are sources that offer rent free gas cylinders and don't need to be a business but I found you either get a small (but still enough for the job) cylinder or a massive cylinder. So I'm testing my set up/equipment with a small cylinder then having it refilled when the time comes.

The 'bar' is simply how much pressure the gas inside the cylinder is under. The more pressure, the more gas can be fit into a cylinder. So for example:
2 litres at 1 bar = 2 litres of gas
2 litres at 137 bar = 274 litres of gas
2 litres at 200 bar = 400 litres of gas

Thanks, so bar is irrelevant in terms of flow rate and other things? I can find a 2litre at 200 bar but some people say that's not enough. But I can't find a 5l or 10l at 200bar

 

[AnonAnon1234]

Thanks, so bar is irrelevant in terms of flow rate and other things? I can find a 2litre at 200 bar but some people say that's not enough. But I can't find a 5l or 10l at 200bar

Correct. Bar won't affect flow rate etc, it just helps fit more gas into a given container. Your cylinder doesn't NEED to be 200 bar. What's more important is how many litres of gas you have in whatever size cylinder you choose.

2 litres at 200 bar is 400 litres. At a flow rate of 15 litres a minute that's 26.6 minutes worth of gas. That's more than enough to ctb as long as you've ensured your hood doesn't have leaks for example and start with a full tank when you want to ctb. That's what I'm doing, completing tests etc knowing I'll have to have it refilled later.

9 litres at 137 bar is the other common size I came across which is around 1,200 litres. At the same flow rate that's 80 minutes worth of gas. So far more gas to play with for testing etc and probably still have more than enough to ctb.

 

[DeadHead]

Correct. Bar won't affect flow rate etc, it just helps fit more gas into a given container. Your cylinder doesn't NEED to be 200 bar. What's more important is how many litres of gas you have in whatever size cylinder you choose.

2 litres at 200 bar is 400 litres. At a flow rate of 15 litres a minute that's 26.6 minutes worth of gas. That's more than enough to ctb as long as you've ensured your hood doesn't have leaks for example and start with a full tank when you want to ctb. That's what I'm doing, completing tests etc knowing I'll have to have it refilled later.

9 litres at 137 bar is the other common size I came across which is around 1,200 litres. At the same flow rate that's 80 minutes worth of gas. So far more gas to play with for testing etc and probably still have more than enough to ctb.

Thanks for clarifying. I plan to use an argon regulator so I believe the flow rate needs to be set slightly differently but it won't be that much different from what you've explained very well.

 

[cerealandmilk]

Exit Bag and Inert Gas Basics —A very, very long post, I know, but I feel like I've fielded a lot of questions about this, so I figured I'd spell out everything I know. Others on the forum should please add to this thread whatever reliable technical information they feel is appropriate for someone attempting this method to have.

The idea behind using an exit bag with inert gas is to create an atmosphere around your head that is both free of life-sustaining O2 and can carry away the exhaled CO2 that would activate your hypercapnic alarm.

The Gas:

You will need to keep the inert gas flowing at 15 liters per minute (Lpm) for 40 minutes to be confident of ending your life —in other words, you'll need a minimum of 600 liters of inert gas. In the past this would have been helium (He), but due to the uncertain availability of genuinely pure He, the best current options are nitrogen (N2) and argon (Ar). Both are reliably available in pure form (no air contamination) from stores that supply welders. N2 is also available from some brewery supply houses, but the purity of the gas should be confirmed to your satisfaction. Both N2 and Ar should work to ctb and are similar enough in their properties to be treated identically for use with an exit bag.

Pressurized gas cylinder sizes are not standardized across the industry, nor internationally, and it can be difficult, if not impossible, to tell how much gas they contain from a photograph on a website.

In the US, a 20 cubic foot (cf) cylinder is the smallest you should use for ctb; a 40cf will allow some margin for flinching, practicing, etc. "A 20cf" and "a 40cf", or "a 20" and "a 40" is nomenclature US welding supply houses will recognize, so asking for either should get you the desired product. A 20cf cylinder is quite small for industrial use; I've had clerks tell me, "well, we have a 40, but we'll need to special order a 20." It's up to you what you do in that situation. Personally, I have a 40cf cylinder. It has allowed me to flinch and abort my attempt three times now, and I don't need to worry about refilling it. I bought my N2 at AirGas, a national company here in the US. They do not demand any sort of professional certification for purchasing inert gas, and no more than the usual forms of ID depending on payment method.

I know nothing of gas cylinders outside the US, so if you are using other than US-typical cylinders, you'll need to call and ask to make sure whatever tank you're contemplating holds 600L of compressed gas. Hopefully knowledgeable forum members will add cylinder sizing information to this knowledge base.

Cover story: N2 and Ar are both used for welding. N2 is used in beer brewing. In my day job, I use both N2 and Ar to flood partial cans of expensive paint, to displace the O2 in the cans and prevent the paint from skinning over and going bad. It's a cost saving measure. The clerks I've bought gas from have never heard of that trick, which has meant they don't know enough to interrogate me on my motives or to try and quiz me on my welding knowledge. They have merely said, "huh! That's a new one!"

The store clerk may ask how you're carrying the pressurized cylinder "back to your shop," since pressurized cylinders can be very hazardous to transport (the valve is vulnerable to damage in an accident). I haven't had any trouble when I have told the clerk, "in the back footwell of my car, and very carefully padded!" What they really want to know is that you are aware that a pressurized cylinder is a missile waiting to explode if anything damages it, and that you know enough to not let that happen.

Thanks for the detailed message, this or beachy is my approach

 

[AnonAnon1234]

Thanks for clarifying. I plan to use an argon regulator so I believe the flow rate needs to be set slightly differently but it won't be that much different from what you've explained very well.

Correct. From everything I've read the difference between Argon & Nitrogen is so marginal that regulators for each are interchangeable and 15 litres per minute flow rate applies to both.

Thanks for the compliment on the clarity of my posts

 

[Falling Slowly]

None of the above, it's that my affairs are very complex and the person executing my will already has their hands full with their own problems, selling my house, disposing of my assets, applying for probate, dealing with my tax affairs, etc. I don't care about not getting the deposit back, it was the fact this one supplier says in their terms they will start legal proceedings if you dont return it in a year, i don't need legal proceedings against my deceased estate.

Without getting into your personal affairs, do bank accounts not close after someones death? And funds transferred?

It seems that I can only get nitrogen cylinders on rental in my country, can't buy outright. And when looking up cylinders for sale in the EU that ship to here, they all seem to have an EU standard connection on their cylinders, not British standard. The regulator I have has a BSP ( British standard ) connection, so it won't fit an EU standard cylinder.
I'm not sure of adapters that convert EU standard to British standard for cylinder connections. Seem hard to get.

I think I'll just stick to rental (9L) , dispose of anything that mentions the vendor, and maybe not mention the return of the cylinder at all. I presume my bank account will be closed, and vendor can't pursue.

I think it may be for the best for a vendor not to know that his product was used for ctb.