Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Life sucks

Visionary
Apr 18, 2018
2,136
Life sucks. Why should we bring children to something that sucks so bad.

Anyway, yea, I don't hate people personally (unless they try to push their natalist agenda) but reproduction is wrong. There are countless logically consistent arguments for antinatalism but most people avoid logical thinking and truth.

I've noticed many people are confused about antinatalism and its stance. Antinatalism supports pro-choice for suicidals while natalism actually is anti-choice, forcing others to exist and continue living and forcing them to continue the loop of reproduction.

Most of what would be written here about suicide and suffering is well understood by antinatalists. But no, lets ignore all of the possible support and keep the natalist and prolife delusions that actually made people ctb or come here in the first place.

Also antinatalism has no gatekeeping, even if you are a parent, you could conclude how life is bad and make your kids life better while stopping the natalist lies. You don't need to justify life and suffering
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Umbrellaterm, deadgirlahsatan, Pupu and 5 others
W

who doesn't matter

Student
Jun 17, 2019
190
In my honest opinion, it's not wrong to have kids and start a family "IF YOU REALLY WANT IT." But sadly, no one follows this route. For many, having kids is like an obligation. We want kids because, well the society said so. But the "society" doesn't ask them to raise their kids well. Just put your sperms to use and completely obliterate a young one's life, that has been the trending ideology for centuries now.
 
Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,622
Life sucks. Why should we bring children to something that sucks so bad.

Anyway, yea, I don't hate people personally (unless they try to push their natalist agenda) but reproduction is wrong. There are countless logically consistent arguments for antinatalism but most people avoid logical thinking and truth.

I've noticed many people are confused about antinatalism and its stance. Antinatalism supports pro-choice for suicidals while natalism actually is anti-choice, forcing others to exist and continue living and forcing them to continue the loop of reproduction.

Most of what would be written here about suicide and suffering is well understood by antinatalists. But no, lets ignore all of the possible support and keep the natalist and prolife delusions that actually made people ctb or come here in the first place.

Also antinatalism has no gatekeeping, even if you are a parent, you could conclude how life is bad and make your kids life better while stopping the natalist lies. You don't need to justify life and suffering
Reproduction is wrong? Are you sure you're not just sexually frustrated? How do you feel about other species?
In my honest opinion, it's not wrong to have kids and start a family "IF YOU REALLY WANT IT." But sadly, no one follows this route. For many, having kids is like an obligation. We want kids because, well the society said so. But the "society" doesn't ask them to raise their kids well. Just put your sperms to use and completely obliterate a young one's life, that has been the trending ideology for centuries now.
I agree with this. Having them to get a house or whatever. Terrible. Biologically speaking though it's not wrong at all.
Yes. I believe having kids is totally wrong.
Fuck parents up their a**
That's one way of avoiding it
 
Last edited:
EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
Never mind the assumption that people raise children for purely selfish reasons. Lol. Think hard about that one for a minute...

People can have good intentions for having children, but it does not mean that their actions are rational or that they are good. I'm sure that there are plenty of parents that have children with the belief that they can give their child a good life or at least a better one than they had but it's a belief born out of being naive about reality.

not worth picking apart this argument but there is plenty of hypocrisy and safe to say this board represents an extremely skewed view of life and others, in a radically negative way. Expressing subjective opinion as fact because it's written academically and the argument makes sense to your lived experience is not theoretically sound. Nor does the existence of suffering take away the existence of joy, a rewarding state you chose to ignore. Never mind the assumption that people raise children for purely selfish reasons. Lol. Think hard about that one for a minute...

The negative bias is quite egocentric. As is the tone. It's something I struggle with too and correlates nicely with suiciders.

What you call negative bias; I call depressive realism. Pretending that the overhwhelmingly terrible aspects of life don't exist for your own psychological well being does not make those things disappear. Life does not guarantee happiness, but it does guarantee suffering for even the most lucky among us (grief, illness, old age, etc).

I'd recommend you listen to this short story titled "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas"



Here's an easy litmus test: what % of the population wishes they were never born? Ignoring exact figures, the lack of a uniform desire to not experience life should stand as evidence against many points in your argument.


From "Every Cradle Is A Grave":

"The second most common preferentist body of evidence, as presented in the wild, is the Imaginary Survey. The nature of this evidence is that it feels obvious to interlocutors that everyone is very glad to have been born, and they are expected to say so if asked. They perform an "imaginary survey" of people worldwide, and the results are clear: people prefer to be alive.

How realistic is this Imaginary Survey? In 1932, sociologist Ruth Shonle Cavan published a paper detailing the responses of 7,852 children from diverse geographic, economic, and racial backgrounds.115 Each child was asked if he had experienced having the wish to never have been born. Around 30% of children indeed reported having had this wish.

What caused children to wish they had never been born? The biggest predictor was what was then called neuroticism —81% of highly neurotic children expressed the wish to never have been born, whereas only 7% of well-adjusted, non-neurotic children reported so wishing. Poverty and family trouble, such as being from a broken home and having a poor relationship with parents, was correlated somewhat with girls, but not boys, wishing they had never been born. Perhaps the most disturbing finding was that the wish to never have been born was spread fairly evenly among all children, urban and rural, white, black, and Mexican, rich and poor, from happy or broken homes. Girls were more likely to express the wish to never have been born than boys, even though men commit suicide more often than women. Based on this sample, it appears that the wish to never have been born is a poor predictor of suicide later in life."
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Pupu, Iwanttooffmyself, Lost in a Dream and 2 others
C

ceelo

Experienced
May 18, 2020
298
As we are mostly genetic fuck ups in one way or other we like to project hatred of those succeeding where we fail thus the anti natalist attitude.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Secrets1 and Mr2005
Stavrogin

Stavrogin

If God not be, then this world dies with me
Jul 1, 2020
201
I can't for the life of me understand why someone who knows they're genetically and/or mentally fucked would pluck a soul from peaceful nothingness and bring it here. My mother was one of them, she should never of had children. Please don't fucking do it, it's selfish.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Élégie, disabledandhopeless, Angina and 7 others
S

Secrets1

Specialist
Nov 18, 2019
359
People can have good intentions for having children, but it does not mean that their actions are rational or that they are good. I'm sure that there are plenty of parents that have children with the belief that they can give their child a good life or at least a better one than they had but it's a belief born out of being naive about reality.



What you call negative bias; I call depressive realism. Pretending that the overhwhelmingly terrible aspects of life don't exist for your own psychological well being does not make those things disappear. Life does not guarantee happiness, but it does guarantee suffering for even the most lucky among us (grief, illness, old age, etc).

I'd recommend you listen to this short story titled "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas"






From "Every Cradle Is A Grave":

"The second most common preferentist body of evidence, as presented in the wild, is the Imaginary Survey. The nature of this evidence is that it feels obvious to interlocutors that everyone is very glad to have been born, and they are expected to say so if asked. They perform an "imaginary survey" of people worldwide, and the results are clear: people prefer to be alive.

How realistic is this Imaginary Survey? In 1932, sociologist Ruth Shonle Cavan published a paper detailing the responses of 7,852 children from diverse geographic, economic, and racial backgrounds.115 Each child was asked if he had experienced having the wish to never have been born. Around 30% of children indeed reported having had this wish.

What caused children to wish they had never been born? The biggest predictor was what was then called neuroticism —81% of highly neurotic children expressed the wish to never have been born, whereas only 7% of well-adjusted, non-neurotic children reported so wishing. Poverty and family trouble, such as being from a broken home and having a poor relationship with parents, was correlated somewhat with girls, but not boys, wishing they had never been born. Perhaps the most disturbing finding was that the wish to never have been born was spread fairly evenly among all children, urban and rural, white, black, and Mexican, rich and poor, from happy or broken homes. Girls were more likely to express the wish to never have been born than boys, even though men commit suicide more often than women. Based on this sample, it appears that the wish to never have been born is a poor predictor of suicide later in life."


You come across as intelligent. Why try to explain away bias as something else? It is negative bias! You can describe as depressive realism, fine, but doesn't change the makeup of this group compared to the overall population.

Interesting study, good contribution. I may check it out. There are lots of problems with using that as a measuring stick to support this argument though. Overall it simply doesn't. Also unique point in modern history for results to be used in broader sense. Itd be nice to see what adults think. Maybe even senior citizens who choose to live despite increased challenges with age? Is their perspective more valuable due to life sample size and maturity level? Necessary data to move towards an accurate answer.

Having found no relation to a wish for dying with socioeconomic and cultural standing also contradicts the much larger sample of data we've compiled since then showing strong correlations between these factors, suicide attempts and completions. Not the same exact thing but suggestive of more at play. Point is this study from 1932 should be taken with a grain of salt, like pretty much all studies. This one throws up obvious red flags in the context of supporting an anti-natalist argument. The author of quoted passage also frames the imaginary survey inaccurately to support their narrative.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DyslexicForeigner and Mr2005
rhiino

rhiino

Arcanist
May 13, 2020
462
All I'll say is do you really think having kids is what's wrong with the world?
Not everything, but in the face of overpopulation and spreading mental illness having kids is one part of what's wrong with the world. In my country 25 % of people get an mental illness until they are 25 and it keeps increasing. That is quite the bad prospect.


Btw I really despise the may ad hominems in this thread. They are everywhere: "negative bias", "hatred", "sexually frustrated", "PEOPLE WITH NO KIDS WHO DONT HAVE A CLUE". It's always easier to attack the person instead of the argument they made.
 
  • Like
  • Love
  • Hugs
Reactions: Pupu, disabledandhopeless, NoPlaceForme and 6 others
T

TotallyIsolated

Mage
Nov 25, 2019
590
The pro-natalists here seem to have taken this rather personally. Its a shame since this is quite fertile ground for discussion.

I'm not so stupid as to think one could just stop people from procreating overnight, but that in itself doesn't stop it from being morally problematic, either.

Btw I really despise the may ad hominems in this thread. They are everywhere: "negative bias", "hatred", "sexually frustrated", "PEOPLE WITH NO KIDS WHO DONT HAVE A CLUE". It's always easier to attack the person instead of the argument they made.
Agreed. It just makes these people look even more ignorant and irresponsible TBH.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Iwanttooffmyself, Lost in a Dream, suffering and 1 other person
ithappens

ithappens

Live free or die
Aug 9, 2018
159
I don't think most people who are happy with life see things like most here would, so they wouldn't even really think about whether having children is immoral or not. What I really can't stand when it comes to parents is those who have kids just to abuse and/or neglect them. I don't get it; why? Why do people do this? A lot of people act like children are purely property, but they are conscious, feeling organisms of their own. They need a "parent" of some sort to learn how to survive and be provided for while they can't, but they are human as well. WTF is the point of having kids just to abuse them? Birth control and abortion are a thing (at least where I live) so people have the choice, some just choose to live like that for reasons I cannot fathom.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: FriendofDeath, SSlostallhope, EmbraceOfTheVoid and 3 others
M

MyStateKilledMe

Arcanist
Apr 23, 2020
463
Birth control and abortion are a thing (at least where I live) so people have the choice, some just choose to live like that for reasons I cannot fathom.
Many parents have kids in order to have someone to boss around, knowing that it's illegal for the child to leave home for 18 years. It's basically a guaranteed, unearned way to feel like a god: large and in charge. "Unearned" because you don't need to do anything beyond a little horizontal action. It's a common American trope for people to dislike their boss, for being too, well, bossy. But at home, they get to "balance the scales" and treat their kids the same way:
* "You are not leaving the table until you eat all your broccoli!"
* "If you don't clean your room right now, we'll donate all your toys to charity!"
* "If you get another bad grade, you're grounded for two weeks!"

Furthermore, when the child develops mental health problems, and their parents put them into therapy, MHP's don't help the child. They just repeat everything back to them, make "aww, how cute!" noises to allegedly show "empathy", ask stupid questions about feelings, and always, always, ALWAYS side with the parents.
 
  • Like
  • Love
  • Aww..
Reactions: FriendofDeath, TotallyIsolated and ithappens
deadgirlahsatan

deadgirlahsatan

Specialist
Jun 5, 2020
373
I don't understand how people think having kids in a hellhole world is a good idea ever. This world is complete shit ;-; :mmm: i will never understand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Umbrellaterm, disabledandhopeless, NoPlaceForme and 4 others
I

Intheo

Student
Jul 1, 2020
119
Not having children is the most compassionate thing I can do. Not just for myself and the child, but for the environment. I am convinced 7.7 billion people on this planet is the biggest contributor to most of the ailments of this world, in particular environmental destruction. Soon this planet will not be able to sustain such a population, and life itself will be threatened.

I don't know how we would implement this ethically, but I think human beings should stop breeding.
Not having a child is the biggest action you can take to reduce your carbon footprint.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: NoPlaceForme, Lost in a Dream, deadgirlahsatan and 1 other person
ithappens

ithappens

Live free or die
Aug 9, 2018
159
Many parents have kids in order to have someone to boss around, knowing that it's illegal for the child to leave home for 18 years. It's basically a guaranteed, unearned way to feel like a god: large and in charge. "Unearned" because you don't need to do anything beyond a little horizontal action. It's a common American trope for people to dislike their boss, for being too, well, bossy. But at home, they get to "balance the scales" and treat their kids the same way:
* "You are not leaving the table until you eat all your broccoli!"
* "If you don't clean your room right now, we'll donate all your toys to charity!"
* "If you get another bad grade, you're grounded for two weeks!"

Furthermore, when the child develops mental health problems, and their parents put them into therapy, MHP's don't help the child. They just repeat everything back to them, make "aww, how cute!" noises to allegedly show "empathy", ask stupid questions about feelings, and always, always, ALWAYS side with the parents.
That certainly always seemed to be the case in my childhood except more, well, outright abuse. I know some parents love their kids, but an awful lot just seem to like having someone to boss around and have under their thumb. To "mold in my image" as I heard from many a parent who showed their kids conditional love or no love at all.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: Lost in a Dream, TotallyIsolated, MyStateKilledMe and 1 other person
Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,622
I don't understand how people think having kids in a hellhole world is a good idea ever. This world is complete shit ;-; :mmm: i will never understand.
I'm just saying why not fix it being a hellhole and why not blame the people who make it one
 
  • Like
  • Aww..
Reactions: FriendofDeath, SSlostallhope, deadgirlahsatan and 1 other person
EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
You come across as intelligent. Why try to explain away bias as something else? It is negative bias! You can describe as depressive realism, fine, but doesn't change the makeup of this group compared to the overall population.

Interesting study, good contribution. I may check it out. There are lots of problems with using that as a measuring stick to support this argument though. Overall it simply doesn't. Also unique point in modern history for results to be used in broader sense. Itd be nice to see what adults think. Maybe even senior citizens who choose to live despite increased challenges with age? Is their perspective more valuable due to life sample size and maturity level? Necessary data to move towards an accurate answer.

Having found no relation to a wish for dying with socioeconomic and cultural standing also contradicts the much larger sample of data we've compiled since then showing strong correlations between these factors, suicide attempts and completions. Not the same exact thing but suggestive of more at play. Point is this study from 1932 should be taken with a grain of salt, like pretty much all studies. This one throws up obvious red flags in the context of supporting an anti-natalist argument. The author of quoted passage also frames the imaginary survey inaccurately to support their narrative.

I'd call a great deal of the overall population as naive optimists; people like to believe that they are in control of their life and the world around them because it is psychologically convenient even if it isn't true. The illusion of it is enough to make them keep going and believing that life is worth living on the surface. Of course, that only works up until the point where they experience a extreme form of adversity that they have to deal with head on(genetic defect of a child, illness, war, rape, death, etc). In the context of anti-natalism, I am not sure I'd value the opinion of people who have not had to face any obstacles beyond the basic ones that everyone deals with as it's not an accurate representation of life.

We have over 3 billion people that live in poverty around the world and many people pretend that these types of things don't exist because it isn't affecting them directly. Look at corona virus for example; people can't ignore something that is affecting everyone and now they spout they cliches like: "we are all in this together." These same people had no issue ignoring the war "pandemic", the homelessness pandemic, suicide pandemic, etc. Of course life is going to seem great to people who don't experience those things and actively ignore that they exist; much like the abandoned child in the basement of Omelas.

The author admits that it isn't a good enough study or reason to justify the idea that life is a bad thing but I unfortunately didn't include that section. I'd highly recommend the book but frankly some sections of it were way over my head or the author had a very strange way of explaining some things. Some of her arguments are extremely compelling including the ones about why all forms of life are bad.

I'm not very good at articulating myself so I'm going to throw a quote at you from a very intelligent Reddit user that gets my earlier point across:


I don't think there's a motive, atleast not one that is operating at a conscious level, per-se. People in any civilization are inculcated with a set of beliefs just as members of a cult - they are raised with a rather static lens they are taught is the "correct" way to experience, perceive, and make sense of reality; this can be something as simple as "things fall down because of gravity", to "money is a very important pursuit in life", or "communism is evil". Taught repeatedly both explicitly and implicitly, one begins to lose themselves in these messages, and the differentiation between "self" and this static perception becomes very fluid - an attack on this perception, even in the form of a piece of information that creates a stark juxtaposition, triggers a fear response, much like that of an animal encountering a predator. The idea is, we may have incredibly advanced technology, but we still operate psychologically at the level of tribespeople; we become incredibly attached to cultural belief systems the same way we attach to our mothers and fathers as children, even if they abuse and berate us.

This comes to the heart of the problem, in my mind. Our cultural apparatus no longer seems to have answers for us, and the chase of money, status, materialism, et al - the hollow idolatry of late capitalism - is failing writ large to satiate our existential fears, if in large part because the system pumping it out has become so corrupt and inequitable that it is losing its legitimacy, and with it, its ability to hold us under the "civilized" spell. But even so, you have billions who have been raised to believe in its wicked fairy tale, to see and judge themselves and others through its objectifying, atomizing, reductionistic lenses, and for the most part know no other way to perceive reality. This is a large part of why "mental illnesses", suicide, and childlessness have skyrocketed and continue to - these are perhaps natural reactions to perceiving reality accurately, beyond any cultural spell.

This said, how does one continue to exist in a world that is not only rapidly changing for the worse - where an extinction crisis is looming large not so far over the horizon, where one is more likely than ever to be socially isolated, exposed to toxic levels of pollution, live in a terribly unhealthy fashion, work an unrewarding, mundane job that barely pays enough - and NOT want to kill yourself, or at the very least be chronically depressed?

Well, the answer, which also includes the answer to your question, is to double-down and become even more insane in the ways of the culture. The role of culture itself is transcendence - to deny death itself and give life a sense of permanency; culture becomes the self and the self becomes culture, but by becoming so intertwined, one becomes a part of its hypervigilant immune system. The problem is, no one really benefits from this arrangement in the long run; but in the short run, the constant denial of reality keeps one in a state of blissful, willfully ignorant cognitive dissonance. To anyone not insane in the ways of our culture, anthropogenic climate change is the Sword of Damocles hanging over life itself, making everything we need to do to sustain life in modern civilization seem absurdly Sisyphisean.

And yet, the denial of reality serves a dual purpose - it allows one to sink into learned helplessness, and it allows one to avoid the existential crises that come with awakening to the fact they are utterly codependent and individually helpless (much like an abused child who ultimately conforms to its treacherous parents' whims, once it realizes they're the hand that feeds and it has nobody else). To illustrate, right now it is estimated some 60% of the world's population lives near a coastline, with nearly 2.4 billion people living and working within 100km, and some 634 million living only 10m above sea level. The majority of these individuals live in the mega-cities that themselves are the major arteries of modern civilization. These cities are neither sustainable nor self-sufficient, and depend on a fragile global logistics chain to continue functioning.

Imagine yourself to be a decently well-off middle class resident in one of these coastal regions, or cities. You have an advanced degree and a great white collar job - let's say you're a family practice physician at a small doctor's office and although you don't save much, you do make ends meet, have an alright social life, overall things don't seem too bad. You never struggle to put food on the table, you're relatively happy with your life, more or less. You feel "successful" in the eyes of your culture because of the two letters after your name, the size of your paycheck, the fact you "own" your property and a nice car from the last 5 years. You're the envy of your less fortunate friends and peers, who are struggling in the gig economy and paying $1100 for a bunk bed in a small room; they look at you and tell you, "you've made it, man!" - its a similar admiration you experience with the opposite sex, who perk up after you mention your career. So, things seem relatively stable in your life. Economic crises seem to come and go, the world seems to be getting scarier by the day but you don't notice much - sure, groceries are always getting more expensive and the packaged goods keep shrinking, sure, you keep seeing friends from your peer group drop off the map or appear in obituaries you scroll past on Facebook, regardless more and more of them are speaking openly of their "mental health" struggles, and sure, people seem to be driving a little crazier, more of your patients are uninsured or on Medicaid, and the weather seems to be more chaotic than ever. But for the most part, you get up in the morning, get dressed and drive to work like everyone else, and although you can't dismiss this tickle in the back of your mind that something isn't quite right, your life seems rewarding enough to keep the tickle repressed. You might get a surge of anxiety now and then - or maybe that's just another pothole on the slowly degrading, neglected highway you take to work, but eventually you forget it until the next time, and the next.

The point is, if you live in any measure of comfort like the above story, belief in the status quo IS your "self", it not only enables your life, it provides you a stable sense of identity and status. To consider climate change is to collapse that lens upon itself, reveal it as a dream, an illusion, and with it, everything you have come to see as fixed and rigid and sensible about your life, every answer you've ever had to those late night existential questions that keep you up. It is to awaken to the stark reality you are a helpless cog in a massive mechanism, who operates a machine you don't understand, that runs on a fuel you can't create yourself, to work a job that is only possible because of a global logistics chain, to shop at a grocery store full of food and drink from who knows where, made by who knows who, to return to your domicile in the evening powered by who knows what from who knows where - all you know is as long as you keep your bills paid, the lights will magically turn on, the food stays cold in your fridge, and you can veg out to the latest sitcom on Netflix after a long day at work. Besides, what could you really do about rising sea levels or a splitting polar vortex, individually?

If we return to the story, imagine yourself that person again - and you've brought up similar subjects with your friends, or your professional-class colleagues, but they tell you you're being a downer, so you eventually drop it, and maybe even begin doubt it's even real or that it matters at all. "The scientists will figure it out," you tell yourself, clutching the Bible that's actually a cellphone streaming the latest climate denial or techno-hopium to your eyes, as you drift off to a dreamless sleep. Anyway, you've got work in the morning and the clocks always ticking and the bills aren't gonna pay themselves.

It's far easier to accept the one reality that is farcical and mundane and be united with your atomized peers in that, to feel the power your status and money grants you, to do the steps of the dance of "normality" - than to stand completely alone in the other reality, in which you are a dependent child in an adult's body, subsisting in a world that is not only bewildering and complex beyond your imagination, but utterly terrifying and unpredictable beneath it all. In that reality there are no answers, only the fact that there doesn't seem to be a place for you in it, and your life is virtually unimaginable without the forms of modern civilization - the grocery stores, the gas stations, cars, two day shipping, fire and police departments. Most would sooner forget that is the world that is threatened and fading than imagine living in a world would it.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: televised_suicide, Iwanttooffmyself, Intheo and 2 others
deadgirlahsatan

deadgirlahsatan

Specialist
Jun 5, 2020
373
I'm just saying why not fix it being a hellhole and why not blame the people who make it one
Very hard to fix. Probably impossible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: disabledandhopeless, rhiino and EmbraceOfTheVoid
H

Heavy

Student
Jun 20, 2020
160
Very hard to fix. Probably impossible.
You simply can't make order of "crazy". Crazy is always crazy.

In Brooklyn there are drugaddicts prostituting their own children for god sake. For what?? Another FIX. Fucking disgusting.
 
  • Aww..
Reactions: FriendofDeath and deadgirlahsatan
Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,622
  • Like
Reactions: Brink and FriendofDeath
EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
Probably but we can do our best. I feel part of the reason for antinatalsm is so that way they don't have to

I believe this is from a reddit user:

for countless of hundreds of millions of years (maybe even more than that). With humans or without humans. With capitalism or without capitalism. Why? One of the laws of thermodynamics some people don´t know exist but maybe is one (if not **the**) most powerful in our universe is **entropy**. What is it? Well, it basically consists of the fact that it is easier to break something than fix something. It´s easier to create and spread a plague than cure it. It´s easier to write a corrupt law for your own benefits than to create a good one with no loopholes. It´s easier to take a good life than a evil life. You see this in action in our universe constantly because shit breaks contantly, but nothing **ever** miraculously improves. Have you ever noticed that?


This, collaborating with the existence of natural selection and game theory, has given birth to a psychopathic (evil) and psychotic (delusional, strongly prone to optimism bias, wishful thinking, false beliefs, etc) species. We enslave those weaker than thus, both [animals](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=3315) and humans, the majority of which are forced to work shitty labor jobs, with a childhood involving neglect, trauma, ostracism, bullying, and a generally poor quality of life. This is the 'pulse' of our species, we abuse our children, teenagers and the weak and traumatize them to have the same evil, systematic nature we have. Note: this is **not** exclusive to humans; you can see this sort of behavior in lions, tigers, and other great predators that exhibit this kind of evil behavior, even if irrationally. And the worse is that I believe if another animal species raised to sentience and became "advanced", they would be the same as us.

Let us say, just imagine if having actual concern for humanity or life is even possible with the idea of extreme success as a CEO or high-ranking corporate figure. It's just complete fantasy. The degree to which this is a fantasy, is like someone saying "An antelope could be just as successful being a carnivore as a Lion can." You simply don't arrive at the positions in those places without being 'carnivorous' towards human beings. Because if you were, you would suffer from the same thing that natural selection punishes a Lion that sucks at killing things would suffer from-- you'd just starve and die, because this is a [**competition**](https://youtu.be/95c5GTp__AU). A kind, benevolent, caring, concerned, charitable CEO would just get eaten alive. The laws of biology(which, **reminder**: Human beings are subject to) and the laws of physics, **prevent** good people from becoming CEO's or high ranking corporate figures. It's simply the way the universe works.

Evil **always** works its way to the top in **any** system given enough time-- there's no other way for it not to, in a competition game which says, "The *sneakiest*, most *dominant*, selfish person climbs, while the most *honest*, most *humble* and *selfless* person gets climbed on."

Entropy constantly empowers that which is empowered by virtue of being the perfect distillation of evil, like the Lion, like the predator, like the apex psychopath who is, has always, and will always sit on the throne of all sentient systems in this block of spacetime moving towards greater entropy. Evil thrives once it achieves power because the powerless must work against entropy, where evil only plows forward exhibiting its nature effortlessly. Good must go *against* nature to be good. Evil does not need to do anything special to go *with* nature.


I know this is gonna be a long read, but it is needed to explain the hellish conditions we are in this universe. The problem is **not** capitalism, the problem is **not** humanity itself, the problem will **never** be what the majority of people tell you the true cause of all problems and all the suffering in this world the is nature and the laws of the universe we exist in. It uproots evil and gives it a way to conquer good and use it for its advantage. **This** is the reality that Disney and most media tries to obfuscate to you with systematically spread happy ending stories, even politics and other distractions are there to obfuscate the hellworld that we live in. People have always been trying to find a problem, when the problem is simple: we are in *Hell.*

Almost no one holds this reality up for examination daily. We are allergic. Most of us have near-zero understanding of the gravity, and those who have glimmers, ignore this fact about the quality of our reality because it's not conducive to living another day. Why must we live another day? Because genes which give rise to culture, all of which is determined by game theory which more or less says, "Psychopathy wins and holds dominion over this game". Natural selection is a game where evil wins, not good. Good is kept around for the purpose of evil wearing it's skin like a mask. Good is not adaptive, in the precise way that the cow in cow hell has no adaptive trait. It's alive. It will bear children. Those children will bear children. But nothing "adaptive" is going on. How? The fact of the matter is, a psychopathic species has kept the herbivore alive for its own gain. This is the precise relationship that evil has to goodness. Goodness is kept alive. Buddhism is kept alive. Any genuine benevolent religious idea, is kept alive. All because evil, which is powerfully [camouflaged](https://i.imgur.com/ri1sTPL.gifv),dominates reality and presses onto it in a way which goodness can never overcome.


There´s *even more* material that I could just keep elaborating on, but the true information is that this life is some kind of evil dystopian hell with no winning moves, because almost all of them empower evil. The worse is that we are delusional evil apes that evolved with brains to blind us to the true, *crushing* gravity of the situation we found ourselves into in this spherical concentration camp. If we were to take our delusional apes glasses off and truly take enough time to analyze our circumstances here on Earth, we would just yell **HOLY FUCKING SHIT** and jump off a window. If everyone was truly aware of *how* bad things are, suicide rates would skyrocket worldwide. Everyone would be killing each other, and everyone would be killing themselves. It would be a suicide epidemic of *biblical* proportions. And everyone would be doing it, not just the poor people, but the CEO´S and other powerful "kings" of Earth, because even **they** would be horrified with the revelation.

TL;DR: Life´s even worse than you think and we are in Hell.

You are pushing your point under the assumption that it's humans that make the world a bad place. Human beings make things worse but I'd agree with his point that at its core the very nature of existence is based on cruelty and evil.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: Zappfe lover and Lost in a Dream
Mr2005

Mr2005

Don't shoot the messenger, give me the gun
Sep 25, 2018
3,622
I believe this is from a reddit user:
I agree with most of that. I don't kid myself about things. I think more people realize that than that person says they just don't care because carings hard. That's what I get from that, that it's just easier not to. Designed by the universe? I don't know about that, I thought it had no meaning except what we assign it. There needs to be incentive to be better, it needs to hurt their ego not to be. If hell exists here so does heaven. Certainly nothing hellish about clouds, trees and rainbows. Expecting it to be waiting for them afterwards is ignoring what's in front of them
 
S

Secrets1

Specialist
Nov 18, 2019
359
I'd call a great deal of the overall population as naive optimists; people like to believe that they are in control of their life and the world around them because it is psychologically convenient even if it isn't true. The illusion of it is enough to make them keep going and believing that life is worth living on the surface. Of course, that only works up until the point where they experience a extreme form of adversity that they have to deal with head on(genetic defect of a child, illness, war, rape, death, etc). In the context of anti-natalism, I am not sure I'd value the opinion of people who have not had to face any obstacles beyond the basic ones that everyone deals with as it's not an accurate representation of life.

We have over 3 billion people that live in poverty around the world and many people pretend that these types of things don't exist because it isn't affecting them directly. Look at corona virus for example; people can't ignore something that is affecting everyone and now they spout they cliches like: "we are all in this together." These same people had no issue ignoring the war "pandemic", the homelessness pandemic, suicide pandemic, etc. Of course life is going to seem great to people who don't experience those things and actively ignore that they exist; much like the abandoned child in the basement of Omelas.

The author admits that it isn't a good enough study or reason to justify the idea that life is a bad thing but I unfortunately didn't include that section. I'd highly recommend the book but frankly some sections of it were way over my head or the author had a very strange way of explaining some things. Some of her arguments are extremely compelling including the ones about why all forms of life are bad.

I'm not very good at articulating myself so I'm going to throw a quote at you from a very intelligent Reddit user that gets my earlier point across:

Lot of truth. Nice addition. I don't believe it renders life futile though. My main issue is how assumptions are made about about motivation and reward that are not universally true, in the quoted passage and more prevalently on this board. Blanket statements ITT to the effect of "parents only selfishly want xyz ..." are false and incomplete.
 
  • Like
Reactions: EmbraceOfTheVoid
EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
Lot of truth. Nice addition. I don't believe it renders life futile though. My main issue is how assumptions are made about about motivation and reward that are not universally true, in the quoted passage and more prevalently on this board. Blanket statements ITT to the effect of "parents only selfishly want xyz ..." are false and incomplete.

I don't think life is futile either; there are some good things if you are lucky enough to have them but that isn't enough justification to continue bringing more beings into a world to continue a cycle of perpetual suffering. The worst part isn't even that people continue having children; it's that they refuse to let those children(who grow into adults) freely commit suicide. Parents need to be held accountable for their actions and they need to respect the actions of those who choose to leave this awful place.
 
Ipassbutter

Ipassbutter

Member
Feb 24, 2019
49
I think this forum, that I also contributed to to share my thoughts, has become really toxic and upsetting.
I feel that a lot of comments are invalidating, accusatory, and written in bad faith. This has been upsetting for me to see on here since I believed this site is where were supposed to learn from and support each other.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: Secrets1, FriendofDeath, SSlostallhope and 1 other person
S

Secrets1

Specialist
Nov 18, 2019
359
they need to respect the actions of those who choose to leave this awful place.

Easier said than done. It's like saying we need to respect the actions of people who have contributed to negative aspects of our life. This thread = exhibit A. We can ignore it but killing ourselves gives our parents a preexisting, traumatic condition with all sorts of negative health implications. Why... because they care about their kids. You understand this but some members of the board dont. I'm genuinely sorry they had such consistently negative experiences leading to those black or white feelings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FriendofDeath and EmbraceOfTheVoid
Soulless_Angel

Soulless_Angel

existence is futile
Jul 10, 2019
2,225
Fucking hate these threads....
Can't ram pro life down ya throats, (not that I would)
but ya can ram at me how I am a piece of shit for *breeding* (not that you should)

everyone's circumstance is different. If I had a crystal ball for the future, I wouldn't have children, but I didn't so I do,
I know a lady who's never had children, but she loves mine.
I respect those that don't like children, I have no judgement on your choice, likewise I have children (whether I like them or not is a different matter :pfff:) you should have no judgement on my choice.


Download
 
  • Like
  • Love
  • Hugs
Reactions: voyager, Woodnote, Brink and 5 others
s3gfault

s3gfault

No Brain No Pain
Jun 29, 2020
114
The older I get (I'm 26 now) I see parents (breeders) as more and more crazy for every day I spend living this life.
I mean, how fucking crazy do you have to be to ignore life is a absolute horror story beyond compare and THEN breed and FEEL GOOD about it?
Like holy fuck, like I know people are dumb as f so thats why we have so many breeders but it's strange to me there's not a big stigma on getting kids.
On the contrary, it's elevated and glorified to have kids. But then - when the kid is 25 he is SHUNNED by society and spat on.

It's kind of funny actually.

Whats your view on parents (breeders) in general ?

Do they make you suicidal?

I mean, it's kind of silly to expect people not to breed. Literally the only real purpose of life is to pass on your genetic material to your offspring, so they can do the same. If people stopped having children then we would die out as a species, which in terms of evolution means we failed. Evolution has programmed us to celebrate having children for this exact reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FriendofDeath
T

TotallyIsolated

Mage
Nov 25, 2019
590
Easier said than done. It's like saying we need to respect the actions of people who have contributed to negative aspects of our life. This thread = exhibit A. We can ignore it but killing ourselves gives our parents a preexisting, traumatic condition with all sorts of negative health implications. Why... because they care about their kids. You understand this but some members of the board dont. I'm genuinely sorry they had such consistently negative experiences leading to those black or white feelings.
For a start, this is tantamount to "other people's feelings are more important than yours". Its not true, and its extremely unhelpful.

Furthermore, the evidence VERY CLEARLY points to the parents being at fault. Adverse childhood experiences are a leading indicator of the development of depression and ultimately of death. Abuse and neglect are SHOCKINGLY common. Why are we to care more about the impact our suicide will have on our parents, than we do about the impact our upbriging had on us?

Fucking hate these threads....
Can't ram pro life down ya throats, (not that I would)
but ya can ram at me how I am a piece of shit for *breeding* (not that you should)

everyone's circumstance is different. If I had a crystal ball for the future, I wouldn't have children, but I didn't so I do,
I know a lady who's never had children, but she loves mine.
I respect those that don't like children, I have no judgement on your choice, likewise I have children (whether I like them or not is a different matter :pfff:) you should have no judgement on my choice.


View attachment 38679
Sorry but GET OVER IT. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. STOP TAKING IT SO PERSONALLY FFS.
 
  • Like
  • Hmph!
  • Hugs
Reactions: pthnrdnojvsc, Brink, Iwanttooffmyself and 1 other person
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Warlord's Pulse
Replies
2
Views
175
Recovery
Warlord's Pulse
Warlord's Pulse
pretzelsandballoons
Replies
0
Views
130
Offtopic
pretzelsandballoons
pretzelsandballoons
O
Replies
2
Views
297
Suicide Discussion
katyusha_kat
katyusha_kat