Breeders

[Mr2005]

You can't fix the hellhole, though. Even if humans didn't exist, the world would still be a horrible place to live. Just look at the amount of suffering animals go through daily.

Yeah, that's the main utilitarian argument.

All so they can live. Strange isn't it. I think natures beautiful. You could say the problem is life itself but without it they'd be no one here to appreciate it so it's a catch 22. Everything should have been made herbivore from the get go, that would solve just about everything

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

Antinatalism is entirely correct.

People here are claiming that suicide is rare? The situation we deal with here is not in any way rare.

Suicide is very common. Leading cause of death for men under 45 in the UK is suicide. I can't believe there is an atmosphere of naive optimism here.

In 2017, 10.6 million American adults seriously thought about suicide, 3.2 million made a plan, and 1.4 million attempted it, according to the CDC.

The leading cause of death, heart disease, killed 647,000 people that year.... So, if all suicide attempts were successful, suicide would be the leading cause of death!! People just don't talk about this for some reason.

What is a good life? People always complain about horrifying world events and life events. People don't actually think the world is good. Please find me these people who have good lives. I'm very interested in knowing more about them, because I've never heard of them.

I'd personally guess that the numbers for suicide are higher than the world likes to admit. Suicide is taboo everywhere, especially in religious countries which forces people to often hide their attempts and have them covered up so they aren't ostracized.

Our society also censors humane suicide methods so many people like myself avoid making attempts for years for fear of ending up disabled. There are billions of people who live in terrible and often inescapable situations where they deal with war, hunger, poverty, etc and end up dying from those things. I have to wonder how many of them would have committed suicide because of their circumstances had their circumstances not killed them in the first place.

TLDR: The numbers for suicide are skewed and it's a much bigger problem than we realize.

 

[Meditation guide]

Life it terrible and this entire existence is a cosmic joke. It took me a very long time to finally see through it all. We are all trapped like rats, without a way to escape.

I think natures beautiful.

I love nature too and yes it IS beautiful but not so much for all those fish, squirrels and other animals who get grabbed, ripped apart and eaten sometimes while still alive. I've thought about this my entire life, how is it that such beauty ends up for little animals and fish in getting torn apart eaten and swallowed while still alive in some cases.

Here is the answer; nature is a very cruel but tempting joke. Just as life it. Enjoying the beauty overlooks the terrible suffering under it all. It is the very idea life or nature is so precious that traps us in this endless stage of suffering, hundreds and thousands of times, over and over.

 

[Mr2005]

Life it terrible and this entire existence is a cosmic joke. It took me a very long time to finally see through it all. We are all trapped like rats, without a way to escape.


I love nature too and yes it IS beautiful but not so much for all those fish, squirrels and other animals who get grabbed, ripped apart and eaten sometimes while still alive. I've thought about this my entire life, how is it that such beauty ends up for little animals and fish in getting torn apart eaten and swallowed while still alive in some cases.

Here is the answer; nature is a very cruel but tempting joke. Just as life it. Enjoying the beauty overlooks the terrible suffering under it all. It is the very idea life or nature is so precious that traps us in this endless stage of suffering, hundreds and thousands of times, over and over.

Are you implying you believe in reincarnation? If we have to come back to this then what are we going to do about it? The only control we have is on what we come back to. Why were we made self aware if not to be able to rise above it?

 

[Heavy]

Are you implying you believe in reincarnation? If we have to come back to this then what are we going to do about it? The only control we have is on what we come back to. Why were we made self aware if not to be able to rise above it?

The thing that makes me wanna go shotgun CTB before N or (D) is the thought of reincarnation. I don't want to be reincarnated and I think shothun CTB ends that possibility.

 

[Mr2005]

The thing that makes me wanna go shotgun CTB before N or (D) is the thought of reincarnation. I don't want to be reincarnated and I think shothun CTB ends that possibility.

I've no idea what you're basing that on but it's an interesting theory

 

[Meditation guide]

Are you implying you believe in reincarnation?

I have believed or rather actually known about it since I was a small child. Memories of a previous life, some aspects of it that were confirmed a few years ago when I remembered the actual name of the farm I lived on. Looked up the odd name and I also knew the location. I still remember the constant feeling as a child of "how did I get in this place? What am I doing here? " and also knowing my previous first name and wanting to be called that. Even my own child's body felt detached from me, like it wasn't really my body. The entire experience of all that in childhood was really strange. Always wondering how this all happened to me, why was I here, with these people in this house etc.

I dread reincarnation again, and again, and again. As long as we feel attachment, remorse, longing, it happens.

 

[ManWithNoName]

The fact that there are people currently living happy lives isn't a good reason to reject anti-natalist views because there is no guarantee that their happiness is going to be permanent,

Sorry man, and I mean no disrespect, but I just find that remark absurd. There are no gaurentees in any aspect of life, period. As was already mentioned in this thread, those of us here are unique in the sense that we are seriously reconsidering the Human condition because it simply is not working out for us. I chose not to have children because I do not have the mental fortitude to be a father. But there are the vast majority out there who are not of ctb mindset and are in a family way, and it suits them just fine. I have no issue with those who can find happiness in this thing called life.

 

[rhiino]

There are no gaurentees in any aspect of life, period.

I have to disagree, there are: death and suffering, every life contains that.

 

[AlreadyGone]

I have to disagree, there are: death and suffering, every life contains that.

And taxes.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

Yes I agree because I am one of those people. but I disagree that it happens to the majority of people.

Even if the people that it happens to are the minority, it doesn't change the fact that everyone is at risk of it happening to them. Of course, they are only a minority now, but all it would take is for new natural disasters or wars to take place in different areas and that could change instantly. We really don't know what the future holds and it's my fear of it that prevents me from ever being happy, even if circumstances in my life improve. I admit that this is a huge part of why I am an anti-natalist and it probably means that I am biased about it, but I can't get rid of the idea that there would be no suffering if there was no life, which is why it upsets me that new life keeps coming into the world.

What i really want to say at the end of the day is, no one ends up here in this forum by chance, we're all fucking miserable.
Let's not make things worse for one another, please, everyone.

It really would be nice if everyone could be nicer to each other. When it comes to controversial topics like this, it always seems to start fights. I've been trying to avoid using the word "breeders" as much as possible, even though there is a part of me that wants to come unglued and spam it everywhere because I have strong feelings about this sort of thing. I don't let myself do that because it would be the same as trying to convince someone with a different ethnicity that my opinion is correct, while addressing them with racial slurs every time they disagree with me.

It would be nice if everyone could be logical all the time and leave emotions out of every discussion, but we're not Vulcans unfortunately. Even I have this problem sometimes and I hate it.

 

[demon bunny]

i think you have to be responsible to have kids but there are plenty of people that lead fulfilling lives, they just aren't us. i don't hate those people at all and i do believe there's hope in the world, it just often doesn't feel like there's hope for me. ive made it through another few months and i see a possibility of hope and i feel like things can be okay. i would like to have children to love, and it would make me happy if the love i gave them was shared to the rest of the world. i dont actually hate life or think its bad i just suffer an incredible amount and ive had an extremely rough time living. i think that its possible to live in a world where everything is okay and i think that love is a big part of that. i am never mean to anybody unless they are trying to hurt my loved ones. i think we need more people like that. i think having kids is just fine if you're a considerate person with emotional depth.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

Sorry man, and I mean no disrespect, but I just find that remark absurd. There are no gaurentees in any aspect of life, period.

It is correct that there are no guarantees in life, therefore it makes no sense to force life on people who can't even consent to having it. I don't understand how that is absurd.

 

[EmbraceOfTheVoid]

It is correct that there are no guarantees in life, therefore it makes no sense to force life on people who can't even consent to having it. I don't understand how that is absurd.

There is one guarantee in life; it's called suffering.

 

[Worthless_nobody]

This topic has been weighing heavy on my mind since loosing my only child is what finally broke me. I was essentially raped by my ex bf during a time when I ran out of my birth control pills. I ended up pregnant. At fist I wanted an abortion because I had never wanted kids (antinatalist)...then I just didn't have the heart to do it. I was supposed to have a girl but she died before birth. I had been suicidal since 14 due to abuse but that event is what made me give up completely.

I never wanted kids and still don't..I'm a firm antinatalist so the emotions of being so devastated over the loss of my would be child don't make sense to me. I think what hurts the most is that I thought I finally had a purpose in life. But I just cannot ever willingly bring another life into this world for my own selfish reason of trying to find meaning and purpose...I just rather ctb.

 

[person123]

Antinatalism would never work, because of extinction of its followers. What the world needs, is that everyone has a right to euthanasia. This way only people who like living, remain alive.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

Antinatalism would never work, because of extinction of its followers. What the world needs, is that everyone has a right to euthanasia. This way only people who like living, remain alive.

You say that like extinction is a negative thing. I don't necessarily think that extinction is the goal for most anti-natalists, but for me, I would love it if humans went extinct. The same goes for all other living things. If there is no life then there can be no suffering and then there would be no need for euthanasia.

 

[person123]

You say that like extinction is a negative thing. I don't necessarily think that extinction is the goal for most anti-natalists, but for me, I would love it if humans went extinct. The same goes for all other living things. If there is no life then there can be no suffering and then there would be no need for euthanasia.

It's better to be born a human, than an animal, life will never extinct, because it will sprung up on some other planet, out of primordial soup.

 

[Mr2005]

You say that like extinction is a negative thing. I don't necessarily think that extinction is the goal for most anti-natalists, but for me, I would love it if humans went extinct. The same goes for all other living things. If there is no life then there can be no suffering and then there would be no need for euthanasia.

You think extinction of our wildlife is a good thing? We were doing them a favour?

 

[person123]

You think extinction of our wildlife is a good thing? We were doing them a favour?

Hyenas torture their prey.

 

[Mr2005]

Hyenas torture their prey.

How kind of us to kill them off. That beef we eat is because of the harm they cause grass

 

[agentgeez]

I really can't understand the natalist position. There's no existence to satisfy until one is created by reproducing in the first place, it's essentially creating a problem only to solve it and claim that life is a great success. Not to mention that happiness is a lot more nuanced than it seems; I can't look at my life, somehow quantify my feelings and then conclude whether my life was 'worth it' or not. Even my feelings at the end of my life can be contradictory to what my life was actually like. In fact, even throughout life, people's optimism bias make them assess their life as better as it is and make them want to go on living. My family members are all clearly miserable and lose their temper at a hair trigger and yet they say they like their lives. Speaking of family, creating life really is not just a 'personal decision', you're creating a whole new being whose suffering can ultimately be traced back to the parent's decision to create them. It's not something where you can just let people's opinions slide. You're fulfilling a need for happiness that didn't have to be there in the first place, while needlessly creating the capacity to suffer.

 

[person123]

I really can't understand the natalist position. There's no existence to satisfy until one is created by reproducing in the first place, it's essentially creating a problem only to solve it and claim that life is a great success. Not to mention that happiness is a lot more nuanced than it seems; I can't look at my life, somehow quantify my feelings and then conclude whether my life was 'worth it' or not. Even my feelings at the end of my life can be contradictory to what my life was actually like. In fact, even throughout life, people's optimism bias make them assess their life as better as it is and make them want to go on living. My family members are all clearly miserable and lose their temper at a hair trigger and yet they say they like their lives. Speaking of family, creating life really is not just a 'personal decision', you're creating a whole new being whose suffering can ultimately be traced back to the parent's decision to create them. It's not something where you can just let people's opinions slide. You're fulfilling a need for happiness that didn't have to be there in the first place, while needlessly creating the capacity to suffer.

Without people, you would be born as an animal, on some other planet.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

You think extinction of our wildlife is a good thing? We were doing them a favour?

The extinctions that have taken place due to deforestation and pollution are the result of people being greedy and I don't think that is a good thing. For the species that have gone extinct already, I do think they are in better shape than the animals that are still suffering because of human greed, but I still feel like they suffered far too much in the process of becoming extinct, which was definitely NOT doing them a favor.

If there was a peaceful way to make everything go extinct in an instant (including humans) and someone did that, then I would say yes to your question, but so far, no species has gone extinct in that manner so I have to say no.

 

[agentgeez]

Without people, you would be born as an animal, on some other planet.

How would I be that animal? It certainly wouldn't have my mind. Can you really say that if I didn't exist my consciousness would inhabit some alien animal? I'll use that logic and say without people I would be born as a peaceful creature on a peaceful planet, in a constant state of euphoria.

 

[person123]

How would I be that animal? It certainly wouldn't have my mind. Can you really say that if I didn't exist my consciousness would inhabit some alien animal? I'll use that logic and say without people I would be born as a peaceful creature on a peaceful planet, in a constant state of euphoria.

If there are only animals, then everyone gets born as an animal, if there are humans, then some would get born as humans, and being human is better than animal.

 

[agentgeez]

If there are only animals, then everyone gets born as an animal, if there are humans, then some would get born as humans, and being human is better than animal.

It seems like you believe that people are made by taking already made 'souls' from the void and putting them inside any available meat puppets. I heavily disagree with that. It's not like my personality and my consciousness jumped into my body; I am who I am in terms of identity because of my genetics and upbringing influencing and creating my self as an individual. As for my consciousness, I think that's part of the brain too, but even if it wasn't and I really had to experience life from some other point of view, I don't see why I'd have to be a suffering animal when it's just as likely that I'd be a happy animal. It's just like how you can experience life from a miserable human or a well-off human. Regardless, talking about my consciousness jumping around alien animals wasn't the point of my original argument, so I'll leave it there.

 

[person123]

It seems like you believe that people are made by taking already made 'souls' from the void and putting them inside any available meat puppets. I heavily disagree with that. It's not like my personality and my consciousness jumped into my body; I am who I am in terms of identity because of my genetics and upbringing influencing and creating my self as an individual. As for my consciousness, I think that's part of the brain too, but even if it wasn't and I really had to experience life from some other point of view, I don't see why I'd have to be a suffering animal when it's just as likely that I'd be a happy animal. It's just like how you can experience life from a miserable human or a well-off human. Regardless, talking about my consciousness jumping around alien animals wasn't the point of my original argument, so I'll leave it there.

A planet of humans is better, than planet of animals, so humans should reproduce. I would not want to be born as a zebra.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

A planet of humans is better, than planet of animals, so humans should reproduce. I would not want to be born as a zebra.

How are humans better than zebras? What criteria do you use to define what "better" even is? Right now I think I would prefer to be a zebra on a planet full of other zebras. I've never heard of zebras murdering or torturing other living things because they think it's fun, but humans do it all the time.

Maybe if I was a zebra, my mind wouldn't be so fucked up that I think about suicide all the time.

 

[person123]

How are humans better than zebras? What criteria do you use to define what "better" even is? Right now I think I would prefer to be a zebra on a planet full of other zebras. I've never heard of zebras murdering or torturing other living things because they think it's fun, but humans do it all the time.

Zebras die of old age, while humans can get euthanasia.