Breeders

[Zappfe lover]

Tha

All so they can live. Strange isn't it. I think natures beautiful. You could say the problem is life itself but without it they'd be no one here to appreciate it so it's a catch 22. Everything should have been made herbivore from the get go, that would solve just about everything

Why does nature need to be appreciated, though? Without life, the world is just a sppining rock.
The worst part? There's no winner. The lion will eat, but he's still going to die someday. He can delay his failure, but it will come.

 

[Secrets1]

Yeah, it just makes zero sense. It's so dumb but somehow people (parents, breeders) find meaning in this and make shit up that there is something good to be made out of creating life that just dies.

Then the chances of this life having a good life is like 2% thats absolutely fine by them.
You see how fucking skewed breeders are?
Disgusting breeders.

wait... make shit up like 2% of people have a good life?

annnd a major problem with creating life that could be good is certainty of death?

 

[TotallyIsolated]

Its funny how this subject brings out people's true colours. I'm not sure why these people who think life is so beautiful and worth living are on a suicide forum.

 

[Secrets1]

Its funny how this subject brings out people's true colours. I'm not sure why these people who think life is so beautiful and worth living are on a suicide forum.

Your analysis is funny

 

[person123]

Its funny how this subject brings out people's true colours. I'm not sure why these people who think life is so beautiful and worth living are on a suicide forum.

Neil Degrasse Tyson lives a happy life.

 

[Deleted member 17949]

Its funny how this subject brings out people's true colours. I'm not sure why these people who think life is so beautiful and worth living are on a suicide forum.

True that. These people who think life is so special are somehow also okay with suicide. I understand not fundamentally disliking the idea of having children, but going beyond that and insisting that continuing humanity is inherently a good thing is just dumb.

 

[SSlostallhope]

There's assumptions here that parents felt suicidal / depressed prior to having children no?

you don't know what people have gone through to get here.

why judge? We are suppose to kind to each other. Aren't we?

 

[Fragile]

Its funny how this subject brings out people's true colours. I'm not sure why these people who think life is so beautiful and worth living are on a suicide forum.

This is NOT a suicide forum, it's a PRO-CHOICE forum. please stop saying that, some people want to shut down this forum and they use this argument as ammunition.

and I agree, it really shows people's true colors. all of those who want the right to die because it's their choice can't see the irony in arguing against the reproductive freedom of other people.

 

[TotallyIsolated]

This is NOT a suicide forum, it's a PRO-CHOICE forum. please stop saying that, some people want to shut down this forum and they use this argument as ammunition.

and I agree, it really shows people's true colors. all of those who want the right to die because it's their choice can't see the irony in arguing against the reproductive freedom of other people.

Well, SS does have suicide in the name. You know what I mean. Plus as I've said before, I am NOT arguing against a person's reproductive freedom.

I'm sorry to have upset people, but its being taken far too personally. I can see how the things we've talked about could be upsetting or triggering to those members who have children, but SS is a safe space for more than just you.

 

[Epsilon0]

Neil Degrasse Tyson lives a happy life.

Well, the man has a brain the size of a planet. And more humour than all the comedians put together. I bet even something as simple as his inner monologue about what to cook for dinner is more fascinating than half the books ever published.

(Yes, I am a fan, in case it isn't obvious.)

 

[person123]

Well, the man has a brain the size of a planet.

Among famous atheists, Richard Dawkins is also smart, but gets frustrated easily. The attitude is important.

 

[Epsilon0]

Among famous atheists, Richard Dawkins is also smart, but gets frustrated easily. The attitude is important.

I think he is Superman to be able to debate as many creationists as he has, and keep a polite tone. I, for one, would just throw my hands up in air and leave the scene.

 

[Fragile]

Well, SS does have suicide in the name. You know what I mean. Plus as I've said before, I am NOT arguing against a person's reproductive freedom.

I'm sorry to have upset people, but its being taken far too personally. I can see how the things we've talked about could be upsetting or triggering to those members who have children, but SS is a safe space for more than just you.

I never said that I want children or a safe space. and that part about reproductive freedom wasn't about you specifically, more about some members who are truly arguing against it because of their own bias.

I'm just pointing out some people's hypocrisy when it comes to this issue, specially when those same members are very vocal about their choice to die and such. and of course, this goes both ways.

 

[person123]

I think he is Superman to be able to debate as many creationists as he has, and keep a polite tone. I, for one, would just throw my hands up in air and leave the scene.

Anger is bad for health. The debates come and go, but you only have one health. I like Neil Degrasse Tyson attitude, he never gets angry, regardless of what people are saying to him.

 

[CynicalHopelessness]

Reproduction involves a third party who is unable to express consent at all. It's implicitly taken that kids agree to come to this world, but it's a question whether it should. A lot of parents also reproduce for selfish reasons with zero regards to person they are bringing into this world - to "fulfill a biological purpose", have a "meaning of life", get a "mini me" or god forbid to "save the marriage". I'm willing to bet that a lot of people here are children of parents who we'd prefer to have used a condom or had an abortion, or at least studied a bit on how to be a parent and not be neglectful to our emotional needs.

Whatever you say about freedom, parents are the one starting the causal link that ends up in their kids' death, and involves all of suffering their kids will ever experience. It's a philosophical question of whether they have a moral right to do that to other person where the alternative is for other person to never exist at all.

 

[rhiino]

"Freedom to reproduce" got mentioned here. I am always sceptical when it comes to "freedom", when people claim their freedom to do something. Most of the time said freedom affects others and thus is not only about oneself.
In this case the freedom to reproduce affects firstly the baby and its wellbeing throughout life. Secondly it affects everybody on the planet, as an additional human being uses resources and by that advance climate change and destruction of ecosystems. Future generations will wish we had limitations of reproduction.

 

[Zappfe lover]

"Freedom to reproduce" got mentioned here. I am always sceptical when it comes to "freedom", when people claim their freedom to do something. Most of the time said freedom affects others and thus is not only about oneself.
In this case the freedom to reproduce affects firstly the baby and its wellbeing throughout life. Secondly it affects everybody on the planet, as an additional human being uses resources and by that advance climate change and destruction of ecosystems. Future generations will wish we had limitations of reproduction.

That's the reason antinatalism won't ever payoff.

Conservatives will be against it because... well, they are against everything. Liberals hate it because it hurts the "individual freeom" (and that's when they don't say it's eugenics).

Just look at abortion. The pro-choice rarely focus on the well being of the baby, it's always about the parents. It's the correct end (aborting) achieved through the wrong means.

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

This is NOT a suicide forum, it's a PRO-CHOICE forum. please stop saying that, some people want to shut down this forum and they use this argument as ammunition.

and I agree, it really shows people's true colors. all of those who want the right to die because it's their choice can't see the irony in arguing against the reproductive freedom of other people.

I love this. The question that I kept asking as I read through this thread is; are we pro-choice or anti-life?
We constantly complain about pro-lifers wanting to take away our right to choose to die. Yet here we are trying to argue against the human rights of others to procreate. Are we really better than the pro-lifers? I mean next we'll have a prolonged thread arguing that people who resist genocide are evil.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

We are suppose to kind to each other. Aren't we?

That is what we are supposed to be doing, but most of this thread thread has turned into a screaming match. I would have preferred that this entire thread been a philosophical discussion about whether or not having kids in our world is a good idea. Even if we all left the thread without changing our minds about anything, I would have liked it if everyone made well thought-out points that would cause outsiders to change their minds about anti-natalism, whether they adopt that view or not. I guess I should have known better than to participate in a thread called "Breeders" from the very start.

This is not what we should be doing, but most of the participants are:

I love this. The question that I kept asking as I read through this thread is; are we pro-choice or anti-life?
We constantly complain about pro-lifers wanting to take away our right to choose to die. Yet here we are trying to argue against the human rights of others to procreate. Are we really better than the pro-lifers? I mean next we'll have a prolonged thread arguing that people who resist genocide are evil.

I'm definitely pro-choice in regards to euthanasia or suicide, but it's very easy to become anti-life in general from seeing all of the horrors that exist in our world. It is NOT a beautiful place. There might be parts of our world that appear beautiful when you see them but for me it's begun to feel like a facade that hides what is going on beneath the surface. I don't want to take away the right to procreate from anyone, but would prefer to at least convince them that doing so might be a bad idea. If they still go ahead and do it, then that's fine, but people need to understand that the potential human life they would be creating could still end up living a miserable life due to things beyond their control. Most people don't even stop to think about it, they just do it, without knowing or even caring about the risks, so it would be nice to change that somehow.

Like others have said, my fellow anti-natalists in this thread are making SS look like the evil forum that the pro-life people think it is and I wish it wasn't that way. I agree with some of the ideas they have posted here, but not the hatred that is dripping from their posts. Sometimes I feel that same hatred, but I try to keep it in check. In my case the hatred that I have for my own dad, who was a horrible father to me, is a huge influence in the anti-natalist views that I have, but I can't let myself have that same hatred for ALL parents because some of them are good ones and I do realize that their kids can sometimes grow up to live happy and healthy lives. It's a gamble for sure, but sometimes it pays off, even though it goes horribly wrong a lot of times too.

 

[Intheo]

I will say something that will probably be misconstrued as evil.
I am not in support of any human authority taking away the right to procreate, as human authority structures are inherently sinister and any attempt to control reproduction will have sinister motives behind it. In an ideal world, humans should see the pointlessness and evil of life in this world and voluntarily opt out and spare any new souls from being polluted by this toxic existence.

And if a higher form of consciousness took away our ability to breed, I would not fight it. Be it AI, a more evolved alien species, a god, or whatever, I would welcome their curing of this planet from an infectious pathogen.

 

[rhiino]

are we pro-choice or anti-life?

anti-suffering!?

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

That is what we are supposed to be doing, but most of this thread thread has turned into a screaming match. I would have preferred that this entire thread been a philosophical discussion about whether or not having kids in our world is a good idea. Even if we all left the thread without changing our minds about anything, I would have liked it if everyone made well thought-out points that would cause outsiders to change their minds about anti-natalism, whether they adopt that view or not. I guess I should have known better than to participate in a thread called "Breeders" from the very start.

This is not what we should be doing, but most of the participants are:
View attachment 38941



I'm definitely pro-choice in regards to euthanasia or suicide, but it's very easy to become anti-life in general from seeing all of the horrors that exist in our world. It is NOT a beautiful place. There might be parts of our world that appear beautiful when you see them but for me it's begun to feel like a facade that hides what is going on beneath the surface. I don't want to take away the right to procreate from anyone, but would prefer to at least convince them that doing so might be a bad idea. If they still go ahead and do it, then that's fine, but people need to understand that the potential human life they would be creating could still end up living a miserable life due to things beyond their control. Most people don't even stop to think about it, they just do it, without knowing or even caring about the risks, so it would be nice to change that somehow.

Like others have said, my fellow anti-natalists in this thread are making SS look like the evil forum that the pro-life people think it is and I wish it wasn't that way. I agree with some of the ideas they have posted here, but not the hatred that is dripping from their posts. Sometimes I feel that same hatred, but I try to keep it in check. In my case the hatred that I have for my own dad, who was a horrible father to me, is a huge influence in the anti-natalist views that I have, but I can't let myself have that same hatred for ALL parents because some of them are good ones and I do realize that their kids can sometimes grow up to live happy and healthy lives. It's a gamble for sure, but sometimes it pays off, even though it goes horribly wrong a lot of times too.

Thank you for your post. I'm no anti-natalist, if anything, I'm a parent. You have presented your argument in a mature, intelligent way. I like that you didn't resort to weird statements like "all breeders are evil". That's the kind of irresponsible posting that gets us such a bad reputation in the real world. It's refreshing for me to meet posters on here that have the self control to present differing view points in a clear, well thought out manner without resulting to nasty language.

I have been tempted by anti-natalist views quite a few times in my life. My social anxiety has caused me to get into nasty situations and to see the ugly side of society. The inequality, bigotry, violence, crime, intolerance of this version of humanity that surrounds us is truly astounding. It's easy to get caught up in it. I have suffered a lot but admittedly, I've had glorious moments as well, like holding my newborn. I'll try and sum up my views on life in the paragraph below.

I am strictly pro-choice in the sense that adults should be allowed to decide what to do with their lives and bodies. No matter what. I support abortion within certain limits. I believe it's wrong to force an adult to live against their will as long as they want to die. But I also have faith in humanity. Think of all the calamities we've suffered in the past like the plague. What if they'd looked at the death toll and decided never to give birth again. We'd never have made important medical advances that ended this and other pandemics. Slavery used to be commonplace, now it's practiced only in secret even in the Arab countries. We also have democracy in most states now, among other things.

I feel that in future they will gradually discover solutions to most, if not all the issues causing us so much suffering. In that case, it would be wrong to stop giving birth. As much as I want to end my own life, I'd like to others to continue being raised so that they can have a chance to keep ending the evils in the world one at a time. This is why I stay around and act normal, for my daughters sake. I hope I'll make it until she's an adult, if not, I'll do the best job as a dad as long as possible.

anti-suffering!?

An activist fighting for the lives of the Rohinya in Myanmar is anti-suffering. A person who wants new lives to stop being created is anti-life.

 

[rhiino]

Think of all the calamities we've suffered in the past like the plague. What if they'd looked at the death toll and decided never to give birth again. We'd never have made important medical advances that ended this and other pandemics. Slavery used to be commonplace, now it's practiced only in secret even in the Arab countries. We also have democracy in most states now, among other things.

This can be turned around completely for anti-natalism. If they decided to stop having kids, they would also have ended the pandemic and the suffering. There will always be suffering like that, there always was and it will not suddenly stop. As old problems get solved, new problems arise. It was always like that and will always be. Especially with new technology there will be new, unimaginable problems and the quota of mentally ill people in the population today affirm that it does not go upwards with humanity right now.

The slavery you mention has been reintroduced, just in a different form. I think of all the people that call themselves slaves or wage slaves today. They live for their job that they hate and do their job to stay alive.

And the democracy we have in most countries is a joke, really.

A person who wants new lives to stop being created is anti-life.

It is called anti-natalism for a reason. It is about human beings, not life in general, so you just cannot suitably call it anti-life.

Furthermore this is not only a black and white topic. The amount of people on this planet is crucial for their own quality of life and suffering at this point and thus fewer people is better, even without saying humans should die out altogether.

 

[Zappfe lover]

This can be turned around completely for anti-natalism. If they decided to stop having kids, they would also have ended the pandemic and the suffering. There will always be suffering like that, there always was and it will not suddenly stop. As old problems get solved, new problems arise. It was always like that and will always be. Especially with new technology there will be new, unimaginable problems and the quota of mentally ill people in the population today affirm that it does not go upwards with humanity right now.

The slavery you mention has been reintroduced, just in a different form. I think of all the people that call themselves slaves or wage slaves today. They live for their job that they hate and do their job to stay alive.

And the democracy we have in most countries is a joke, really.

It is called anti-natalism for a reason. It is about human beings, not life in general, so you just cannot suitably call it anti-life.

Furthermore this is not only a black and white topic. The amount of people on this planet is crucial for their own quality of life and suffering at this point and thus fewer people is better, even without saying humans should die out altogether.

Actually, antinatalism does aply to all sentient life.

I think that the genesis of the problem is that most people see life as something inherentely good, so an ideology that treats life as something that should never have existed is completely diesregarded. Another problem may be that we always try to paint things as morally wrong or right, so an utilitarian perspective tends to make humans feel personally atacked, considering that from that perpective, a parent would be more "evil" than a killer. We are more worried to hold people accountable for arbitrary standards of morality than reducing suffering.

 

[Zappfe lover]

If anyone feels bad after reading this thread, I can assure you that that's not my intention and I feel genuinely bad for that. The last thing that people who browse this place needs is more pain. I just want suffering to vanish from this universe.

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

I am curious, sorry if it sounds cruel and it's definitely insensitive, but I'm asking in a good faith as I never felt any desire to have children of my own:
If your daughter approaches you and says that she doesn't want to live anymore, would you help her with your knowledge of methods and means you have as a senior, even if you try to talk her out of it, or would you do anything possible at all to make sure she stays happy?

First of all, you're right, not only is this unusually insensitive for a suicidal person to ask another, it's also unbelievably offensive. I had to take time to decide what to do. After all, internet trolls always turn amiable discussions into endless arguments and can do anything to win. Noone ever wins those things.

I'm suicidal, which does not make me lacking in empathy. Even so, I've elected answer your question.

As a couple we have considered the possibility of my daughter inheriting my disorder. We have done research and consultations regarding how to handle it if she does. Unlike me, she won't grow up surrounded by condescending relatives in denial. If it ever comes to her wanting to end it:

1. I won't handle it like a quote spouting pro-lifer.
2. I won't also hand her a rope and tell her, "Hey, see that tree, just tie, and jump."

I've been suicidal long enough to know how not to handle a suicidal person. Wow, this thread.

 

[CynicalHopelessness]

Thanks for replying, @CarbonMonoxide. I'm happy to see you being more responsible than a lot of people I interacted with wrt. potential inherited conditions, and hope it never comes to the point that you have to use that knowledge.

 

[Deleted member 14573]

Hi guys,

I'm locking this thread since it has become infested with disparaging and insensitive comments about all parents.

Any further use of derogatory terms such as "breeders", or rude comments about parents in general will result in a harsh warning or ban.

Users on this forum come from all walks of life, and we will not tolerate disrespect to other members.

Thank you.