Discussion Ask a mortician.

[Skathon]

I'll answer all three of those with one statement:
Visual identification of the body by a family member or loved one is *rarely* necessary or required.

I meant any kind of identification, not just visual. So... Will it remain unidentified, then? I still have the same three questions, unfortunately... Especially the third one. I mean... Is it legally allowed to just hang up immediatelly when contacted/asked to identify one's presumed relative?

 

[Rocket]

I appreciate your insightful thread; it's been an educational experience. My Dad had friends who worked at Frank E. Campbell in New York City. They half-jokingly advised against passing away in NYC due to the disrespectful behavior of the union rastas towards the deceased. They experienced the loss of a son, which changed them forever. I attended the service and the repast afterward. All the morticians in the tri-state area gathered to show their respect. I joined them downstairs, where they were engaged in fascinating "shop talk". They discussed their experiences preparing celebrities for their final journey, sharing their techniques, mistakes, and the pride they took in their work. I have immense respect for your profession, serving both the living and the departed. Thank you for your service and for answering our questions about what happens "backstage".

This year, I lost both my parents, just two months apart. My Dad had a heart attack, and my Mom had dementia and was in a care facility but had to be rushed to a main hospital and passed just 2 days later. I'm an only child, and still struggling to cope with their absence. Unlike my grandparents, who preferred traditional burials, both my parents ultimately chose cremation, a decision I plan to follow. Have you noticed a generational shift towards this practice? The cost difference was significant, with each cremation costing around $4K compared to over $10K for a burial. They already had plots, so the only additional cost was updating the gravestones, which was surprisingly expensive as they charge per letter. I've been through this process twice already, but any advice on cost-saving measures or commonly overlooked aspects would be appreciated.

Many people have been discussing SN, and while you've addressed some queries, could you elaborate on the process? The discoloration and bluish tint are often mentioned, but what do you believe were the individuals' experience? Are there signs of panic similar to hanging? Is it possible to determine how long it took for them to pass away? Stan's guide provides a setup, but there's little information on the aftermath, what families might see, and how peaceful this method might be.

"There have been cases of people being found alive in a mortuary cooler after being pronounced dead by a hospital or nursing home. There have been cases where it was clear that someone actually died in the mortuary cooler, not prior to being put into it. These are extremely rare."

You've touched on this, but it sounds like a horror movie plot. It's a horrifying experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. Dying in a cooler must be one of the most terrifying ways to go. Couldn't they install simple life-detecting monitors in those coolers?

On a lighter note, I've started watching Six Feet Under, which recently arrived on Netflix. I've managed to watch a few episodes despite my ongoing grieving process. Some parts even made me laugh, including the "commercials". Have you seen it? Does it accurately represent the industry, or is it just dramatic license?

Thank you once again for taking the time to share your insights here. This has been one of the most enlightening threads I've read. Sending a big hug your way.

 

[mehdone]

I meant any kind of identification, not just visual. So... Will it remain unidentified, then? I still have the same three questions, unfortunately... Especially the third one. I mean... Is it legally allowed to just hang up immediatelly when contacted/asked to identify one's presumed relative?

To clarify, a loved one does not need to identify you, period.

You will be identified through other means, if possible.

A next of kin, if one can be found, will be notified of the death and then asked what they would like to do with the body. That next of kin is not required to claim the body.

If unclaimed, you would be cremated or buried, depending on your location, through an indigent program.

 

[mehdone]

I appreciate your insightful thread; it's been an educational experience. My Dad had friends who worked at Frank E. Campbell in New York City. They half-jokingly advised against passing away in NYC due to the disrespectful behavior of the union rastas towards the deceased. They experienced the loss of a son, which changed them forever. I attended the service and the repast afterward. All the morticians in the tri-state area gathered to show their respect. I joined them downstairs, where they were engaged in fascinating "shop talk". They discussed their experiences preparing celebrities for their final journey, sharing their techniques, mistakes, and the pride they took in their work. I have immense respect for your profession, serving both the living and the departed. Thank you for your service and for answering our questions about what happens "backstage".

This year, I lost both my parents, just two months apart. My Dad had a heart attack, and my Mom had dementia and was in a care facility but had to be rushed to a main hospital and passed just 2 days later. I'm an only child, and still struggling to cope with their absence. Unlike my grandparents, who preferred traditional burials, both my parents ultimately chose cremation, a decision I plan to follow. Have you noticed a generational shift towards this practice? The cost difference was significant, with each cremation costing around $4K compared to over $10K for a burial. They already had plots, so the only additional cost was updating the gravestones, which was surprisingly expensive as they charge per letter. I've been through this process twice already, but any advice on cost-saving measures or commonly overlooked aspects would be appreciated.

Many people have been discussing SN, and while you've addressed some queries, could you elaborate on the process? The discoloration and bluish tint are often mentioned, but what do you believe were the individuals' experience? Are there signs of panic similar to hanging? Is it possible to determine how long it took for them to pass away? Stan's guide provides a setup, but there's little information on the aftermath, what families might see, and how peaceful this method might be.

"There have been cases of people being found alive in a mortuary cooler after being pronounced dead by a hospital or nursing home. There have been cases where it was clear that someone actually died in the mortuary cooler, not prior to being put into it. These are extremely rare."

You've touched on this, but it sounds like a horror movie plot. It's a horrifying experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. Dying in a cooler must be one of the most terrifying ways to go. Couldn't they install simple life-detecting monitors in those coolers?

On a lighter note, I've started watching Six Feet Under, which recently arrived on Netflix. I've managed to watch a few episodes despite my ongoing grieving process. Some parts even made me laugh, including the "commercials". Have you seen it? Does it accurately represent the industry, or is it just dramatic license?

Thank you once again for taking the time to share your insights here. This has been one of the most enlightening threads I've read. Sending a big hug your way.

Because of privacy for the dead and their families, we typically only talk shop to other morticians. We do have a wickedly dark sense of humor, you have to in this profession.

I'm able to answer questions here because they are not about a specific case, just my general experience and knowledge. It's actually refreshing to be able to talk about what I do and answer questions- most people avoid the topic of death. It's like they think that talking about it, and acknowledging it, will some how make it happen sooner. But, all of us here obviously have a different perspective on death than most.

My condolences, losing a loved one is difficult.

There is absolutely a generational shift towards cremation. There is also a shift towards not having a viewing/visitation. The lack of a viewing or visitation is a shame, it can significantly help the grieving process. Even if one is cremated, they can still be embalmed and have a viewing prior to cremation.

As far as cost saving measures, by far the best one is making a pre-plan and prepaying it. It locks in the price. Inflation hits every industry- including my own- and prices will continue to rise.

SN- no visible signs of panic on the body, however, please keep in mind that I see and handle the body after death, so I cannot say how peaceful the death itself was, or what they went through. But they do not have the visible signs of panic that we see with a hanging where they didn't break their neck and died slowly of asphyxiation.

Dying in a cooler is incredibly rare, but it would be terrifying. You would wake up zipped into, or taped, into a large plastic body bag. If you were weak enough to be declared dead, you would likely be too weak to get yourself out of that bag. I'm not sure what kind of life detection alarm could be used. Perhaps sound detection?

If you'd like to get an idea of what my profession is actually like, I would suggest watching the show The Casketeers. It is available on Netflix.

You are very welcome.

Oh... But if there is absolutely no other way to identify the corpse, and the presumed relatives are either uncertain or unable/unwilling to identify it? Will it remain unidentified or simply unclaimed?

Then it will likely remain unidentified, and cremated or buried as an indigent.

 

[RicoFR]

In the case of suicide victims as opposed to natural/accidental deaths, does the family seem especially devastated?

 

[lastcuriosity]

Thank you for the thorough replies @mehdone, this is a fascinating thread. I do have some questions of my own:

1. The economic situation currently is permeating through most aspects of life, but does it also bleed into aspects of death? Is there inflationary death costs and greedflation in the death industry similarly as any other industry currently? Considering death is such a final and serious topic, how do people react to the financial aspects of death and how do you handle cases where the costs can't be recovered? Who is the final payer of the deaths of the poor and destitute?

2. Do you find it ironic that you deal with death everyday professionally, yet are considering personally to CTB? Do you think being a mortician has caused this or at the very least strongly encouraged these feelings? How do you combine the seemingly contradictory knowledge of death physically as you always see on the job with the notion of death philosophically in your mind as a peaceful way out?

3. Do you work alone most of the time or are you in a team handling the dead?

4. Since you talked about bottling it up, do you consider this place to be kinda of the missing vent and safe space that would benefit the morticians community as a whole?

5. Even though obviously, political thoughts are very individual, certain occupations always attract certain people with very similar characters and political philosophies. For example law enforcement and the military tend to attract and produce highly conservative, authority liking and usually right-wing personalities. Entertainment, especially avantgarde entertainment meanwhile usually attracts heavily liberalist, individualistic and almost anarchic kinds of people. Does the profession of being a mortician also tend to lean towards a certain type of personality?

 

[mehdone]

In the case of suicide victims as opposed to natural/accidental deaths, does the family seem especially devastated?

Death devastates, period. It is brutal for those left behind.

I'd say that it is certainly much harder in the case of suicide, or an unexpected sudden trauma such as a car accident or stray bullet.

Thank you for the thorough replies @mehdone, this is a fascinating thread. I do have some questions of my own:

1. The economic situation currently is permeating through most aspects of life, but does it also bleed into aspects of death? Is there inflationary death costs and greedflation in the death industry similarly as any other industry currently? Considering death is such a final and serious topic, how do people react to the financial aspects of death and how do you handle cases where the costs can't be recovered? Who is the final payer of the deaths of the poor and destitute?

2. Do you find it ironic that you deal with death everyday professionally, yet are considering personally to CTB? Do you think being a mortician has caused this or at the very least strongly encouraged these feelings? How do you combine the seemingly contradictory knowledge of death physically as you always see on the job with the notion of death philosophically in your mind as a peaceful way out?

3. Do you work alone most of the time or are you in a team handling the dead?

4. Since you talked about bottling it up, do you consider this place to be kinda of the missing vent and safe space that would benefit the morticians community as a whole?

5. Even though obviously, political thoughts are very individual, certain occupations always attract certain people with very similar characters and political philosophies. For example law enforcement and the military tend to attract and produce highly conservative, authority liking and usually right-wing personalities. Entertainment, especially avantgarde entertainment meanwhile usually attracts heavily liberalist, individualistic and almost anarchic kinds of people. Does the profession of being a mortician also tend to lean towards a certain type of personality?

1. Inflation absolutely effects the funeral industry. When the cost of materials goes up, the cost of coffins/caskets, urns, cremation trays, outer burial containers, everything from the memorial folders to the flowers goes up- and the cost of funeral arrangements rise. There is also typically a yearly increase in prices due to general inflation.

I do unfortunately see "greedflation", primarily with corporate funeral homes. This isn't something I typically see in family owned funeral homes.

Most funeral homes require payment at time of service. If the family cannot immediately afford it, we will work out a payment plan with the family. If we can see that there is truly a need, we will waive costs beyond what the family can afford- understandably, this means it won't be an elaborate service and merchandise will be simpler.

Many families struggle to suddenly come up with thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. I do see the relief in the family when their loved one took the time to pre-plan and prepay their funeral arrangements. It takes that off of their shoulders during a difficult time.

The final payer for the costs of the poor and indigent and unclaimed is the taxpayers, through the county/municipality.

2. I don't find it ironic. I see death as an end to suffering. I have wanted to ctb long before I started working in this profession.

3. It's a combination. During removal/pickup, it is typically a team of two. While embalming, I am alone. While casketing, etc- it is a team of two. Funeral services are typically a team of at least 3, more if it is a large service.

4. Absolutely. We do not have many options for mental healthcare.

5. For those who are not born into it and instead choose this industry, the common thread is that most of us have experienced a lot of loss or trauma in our own lives, and/or struggle with mental illness. I am both of those things.

 

[DeadManLiving]

Thank you for being so engaging with members of the forum. Your answer have been insightful and appreciated.

Can I ask if you have any resentments for being in such an overwhelming occupation, as being the bearer of the worst news a family could hear, and how you handle their grievances in the sense of feeling underappreciated for such important work? Do you feel as you're being shot as the messenger and getting heat for some causes of death in certain religions, such as suicide being taboo in exhaustion of being the liaison between the examiner and determinant adjudicator of the final cause of death in made in compliace and in conformity with accepted best practices which do not necessary align with the family's expectations as a source of frustration.

Again than you for being so engaged with answering questions. I hope you find your peace in life or in death.

In one particular unanswered question, is there a way to rule out death by asphyxiation from inert gas cryogenic spill such as liquid nitrogen>

What about pure pharmaceutical nicotine contact (as in reagent technical grade) ... which causes instant deth transdermally in ammouns as small as a few drops?

In the absence of any evidence (tanks of LN2/nicotine reagent bottles) ... how would one make a determination for a cause of death where the there is no evidence of possible etimology to test for?

Also for a "last rites" question - can you give us some collegial coronor dark humor jokes?

How do you feel at BBQ parties? Has being a coronor made you Vegan, could you ever become a fresh local meat butcher? lol

 

[RicoFR]

What funeral arrangements would you make for yourself?

 

[gbi2]

Should a single person who has no next of kin, or who doesn't belive any relatives will know or be affected by their suicide, do anything other than just go? I mean, does it amke any difference to a mortician or anyone involved in anything after the suicide if the person just jumps. Can they wear anything, write anything or do anything that will make life easier for a mortician (even like maybe not eat cabbage for a few days)?

 

[mehdone]

Thank you for being so engaging with members of the forum. Your answer have been insightful and appreciated.

Can I ask if you have any resentments for being in such an overwhelming occupation, as being the bearer of the worst news a family could hear, and how you handle their grievances in the sense of feeling underappreciated for such important work? Do you feel as you're being shot as the messenger and getting heat for some causes of death in certain religions, such as suicide being taboo in exhaustion of being the liaison between the examiner and determinant adjudicator of the final cause of death in made in compliace and in conformity with accepted best practices which do not necessary align with the family's expectations as a source of frustration.

Again than you for being so engaged with answering questions. I hope you find your peace in life or in death.

In one particular unanswered question, is there a way to rule out death by asphyxiation from inert gas cryogenic spill such as liquid nitrogen>

What about pure pharmaceutical nicotine contact (as in reagent technical grade) ... which causes instant deth transdermally in ammouns as small as a few drops?

In the absence of any evidence (tanks of LN2/nicotine reagent bottles) ... how would one make a determination for a cause of death where the there is no evidence of possible etimology to test for?

Also for a "last rites" question - can you give us some collegial coronor dark humor jokes?

How do you feel at BBQ parties? Has being a coronor made you Vegan, could you ever become a fresh local meat butcher? lol

You're very welcome. This place, and answering everyone's questions, has become a little refuge for me. It has helped me immensely.

I don't feel resentment- but as I've said previously, I do not recommend this profession. I have had family members take their grief and rage out on me. During removals, when we are removing the body from the place of death- I have had family members suddenly snap and assault me or throw things at me, because in that moment, they feel that *I* am taking their loved one away from them. Yes, I absolutely feel under-appreciated- that family will never know how many hours and how much effort I lovingly put into making their loved one look the best they possibly can for them. But that is okay. I'm not doing this for myself, I am doing it for them- and I do occasionally get thank you notes from families.

Keep in mind that I am a mortician, not a coroner. The way to rule out death by inert gas would be to find another cause of death- heart attack, etc.

Nicotine overdose could absolutely be detected via bloodwork during the autopsy. Whether or not it would be ruled accidental would depend on the scene.

In the absence of evidence, other possible causes of death would be ruled out until the most likely cause of death was determined. A death certificate will never show the cause of death as, "unknown", but that cause of death may not be accurate.

This is going to sound sick- and please know that human flesh is not appetizing in the slightest- way back when I was in mortuary college, anytime that we embalmed an autopsied body, a number of us would have a strong craving for ribs or steak afterwards, so we would go out to lunch at a local steak joint. It certainly hasn't turned me vegan, or vegetarian.

I couldn't be a butcher. While I have no problem cutting up a human body, I would struggle to cut up an animal.

What funeral arrangements would you make for yourself?

I will be either cremated or "water cremated" (this is called aquamation, although the technical term is alkaline hydrolysis, see the article linked to below:)

Could Water Cremation Become the New American Way of Death?

A sustainable option for what to do with our remains is trickling into popular consciousness

www.smithsonianmag.com

My cremated remains will then be scattered in a place that holds a special part of my heart.

Prior to cremation, while I don't particularly want a service or viewing, my family is welcome to do so if it will help them accept my death and begin the grieving process.

Should a single person who has no next of kin, or who doesn't belive any relatives will know or be affected by their suicide, do anything other than just go? I mean, does it amke any difference to a mortician or anyone involved in anything after the suicide if the person just jumps. Can they wear anything, write anything or do anything that will make life easier for a mortician (even like maybe not eat cabbage for a few days)?

It would be ideal if they pre-planned and prepaid for their funeral arrangements, and then put that paperwork into a sealed plastic bag in their pocket. This would serve two purposes:

It would keep the costs of final disposition from falling on the taxpayers- and it would keep their body from being stored in a cooler for 30 to 90 days while every effort is made to locate a next of kin or someone to claim the body.

You mentioned jumping. If someone were to jump, it would be ideal if they were wearing denim or other durable clothing. It would help to contain their bits, and it would make clean up easier.

 

[AllCatsAreGrey]

I will be either cremated or "water cremated"

In your experience, is there a big difference in cost?

 

[mehdone]

In your experience, is there a big difference in cost?

Depending on location, there is a slight increase in cost- a few hundred up to a thousand more. In addition, because the service isn't wide spread or widely available, there may also be a transportation cost, which may add a couple hundred more.

 

[Beyond_Repair]

Thank you for taking the time to answer everyone's questions.

I apologize if this has been more thoroughly answered already, but you mentioned that someone who died by SN looks discolored. Would you mind elaborating on in what way it is discolored? Like a little bit so you would know something's off but not awful, or extremely discolored?

 

[lastcuriosity]

Wow thanks for answering all these questions, very interesting indeed. I feel like this is actually information that would help the public in creating a more honest discussion about death.

Many families struggle to suddenly come up with thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. I do see the relief in the family when their loved one took the time to pre-plan and prepay their funeral arrangements. It takes that off of their shoulders during a difficult time.

The final payer for the costs of the poor and indigent and unclaimed is the taxpayers, through the county/municipality.

1. Would you say that the price of death has become so much higher throughout the years that "dying with dignity" has become a luxury product for the wealthy? Do you see an increase in the proportion of cases where people die and the state and thus the taxpayer ultimately pays for all of it over the years or has it been relatively stable?

This is going to sound sick- and please know that human flesh is not appetizing in the slightest- way back when I was in mortuary college, anytime that we embalmed an autopsied body, a number of us would have a strong craving for ribs or steak afterwards, so we would go out to lunch at a local steak joint. It certainly hasn't turned me vegan, or vegetarian.

I couldn't be a butcher. While I have no problem cutting up a human body, I would struggle to cut up an animal.

2. And I thought I was the only one who's had that thought! I sound super inappropriate and kinda psycho but I actually looked up pictures of autopsies of deceased people and if they are not totally mangled up like in high-speed traffic accidents, some of those pictures without context look kinda like pictures from a butchers halving his pigs. Especially when you cut open the ribs! Kinda eerily fascinating.

If you get autopsied bodies, do the organs just come....in a kind of bag stuffed inside of them like those whole chickens you buy at the supermarket sometimes?

3. Do morticians also have "high seasons" like grocery stores, where holiday seasons are particularly lucrative and busy so everbody does overtime in that period?

4. What would you say is the most commonly held myth that you have to dispell over and over again when families approach you?

 

[mehdone]

Thank you for taking the time to answer everyone's questions.

I apologize if this has been more thoroughly answered already, but you mentioned that someone who died by SN looks discolored. Would you mind elaborating on in what way it is discolored? Like a little bit so you would know something's off but not awful, or extremely discolored?

Extremely.

Blue-gray body, lips and tongue almost black.

Wow thanks for answering all these questions, very interesting indeed. I feel like this is actually information that would help the public in creating a more honest discussion about death.


1. Would you say that the price of death has become so much higher throughout the years that "dying with dignity" has become a luxury product for the wealthy? Do you see an increase in the proportion of cases where people die and the state and thus the taxpayer ultimately pays for all of it over the years or has it been relatively stable?


2. And I thought I was the only one who's had that thought! I sound super inappropriate and kinda psycho but I actually looked up pictures of autopsies of deceased people and if they are not totally mangled up like in high-speed traffic accidents, some of those pictures without context look kinda like pictures from a butchers halving his pigs. Especially when you cut open the ribs! Kinda eerily fascinating.

If you get autopsied bodies, do the organs just come....in a kind of bag stuffed inside of them like those whole chickens you buy at the supermarket sometimes?

3. Do morticians also have "high seasons" like grocery stores, where holiday seasons are particularly lucrative and busy so everbody does overtime in that period?

4. What would you say is the most commonly held myth that you have to dispell over and over again when families approach you?

Unfortunately, the public doesn't typically want to have any kind of discussion about death. It's a shame.

1. Unless someone has prearranged their funeral services, yes, dying with dignity is unfortunately more for the wealthy. What I see is a significant increase in direct cremations, with no services. It is the cheapest option. I have not seen an increase in unclaimed/indigent cases.

2. Yes, in an autopsied body, all of the organs are put into a biohazard bag and placed back in the stomach/chest cavity. Keep in mind that at this point, they are dissected organs- cut up, not a whole heart/liver/kidney etc.

3. We do. Holiday seasons are typically very busy. Summer as well- more accidental deaths. Death typically comes in cycles- no deaths for a while, and then suddenly a number of deaths all at once.

4. That we will harvest their loved one's gold teeth. I actually preempt this by asking the family if their loved one has any metal in their body and then explain what happens to that metal- it will melt and lose its identity during the cremation process. That metal is then separated from the cremated remains and collected, then recycled- and the proceeds are then donated to a local charity, typically a food bank. We are not little dark gold tooth fairies collecting up teeth to fund our next vacation. ;)

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Extremely.

Blue-gray body, lips and tongue almost black.

Are you still able to restore some semblance of a natural complexion like you can with the effects of general decomposition or is it still too much for mortuary magic? I recall someone saying they attended the funeral of a relative who had used SN and she didn't look too bad, but that must have been by virtue of that aforementioned magic.

It can be distressing to imagine yourself discolored as well as being dissected but I console myself with the idea that once you black out nothing has to matter again.

Still that must be a pretty bad sight to have to come across. Still what suicide method doesn't leave a bad sight? Certainly not hanging by a rope, a shotgun blast to the head, or smashed up at the bottom of a cliff.

Just a symptom of the problem that the clandestine nature of suicide forces upon us.


Some miscellaneous questions:

What are some examples of some wicked dark humor you have used or encountered, if you can name some without violating people's privacy?

This is probably moot by now but do you find yourself feeling squeamish or grossed out by anything you encounter even today?

A new movie about the funeral business called The Burial (a legal movie more accurately) has come out; have you seen it?

2. Yes, in an autopsied body, all of the organs are put into a biohazard bag and placed back in the stomach/chest cavity. Keep in mind that at this point, they are dissected organs- cut up, not a whole heart/liver/kidney etc.

I've heard the brains aren't returned though, since they need preparation before they can be dissected.

 

[R.F.]

Thank you for sharing your insights, it's been very informative and interesting to read. I'd like to ask a few questions too:

1. You've said that you would not recommend your profession due to the physical and mental toll it takes, but you've also mentioned high competition among the peers in the industry.

How do you expect your field to develop overall in the coming decades? With aging Western demographics and (allegedly) rising suicide rates in teens and young adults, one would expect a continous increase in workload for morticians and everyone else that deals with dead people for a living. Do you feel like that's actually the case?

2. Are there any emerging technologies, or just changes in the way you do your job, that have the potential to reduce a mortician's individual stress level/increase efficiency? If so, do you think they have a future?

3. How do you see yourself and peers of your age group compared to older/younger morticians? Are there things your former/current mentors did better than you, at a level that you for whatever reasons aren't able to match? Are there things your "generation" of morticians has mastered to a greater extent than your predecessors? And likewise, what are the aspects you like or dislike about the generation that is just starting out in the field?

 

[mehdone]

Are you still able to restore some semblance of a natural complexion like you can with the effects of general decomposition or is it still too much for mortuary magic? I recall someone saying they attended the funeral of a relative who had used SN and she didn't look too bad, but that must have been by virtue of that aforementioned magic.

It can be distressing to imagine yourself discolored as well as being dissected but I console myself with the idea that once you black out nothing has to matter again.

Still that must be a pretty bad sight to have to come across. Still what suicide method doesn't leave a bad sight? Certainly not hanging by a rope, a shotgun blast to the head, or smashed up at the bottom of a cliff.

Just a symptom of the problem that the clandestine nature of suicide forces upon us.


Some miscellaneous questions:

What are some examples of some wicked dark humor you have used or encountered, if you can name some without violating people's privacy?

This is probably moot by now but do you find yourself feeling squeamish or grossed out by anything you encounter even today?

A new movie about the funeral business called The Burial (a legal movie more accurately) has come out; have you seen it?

I've heard the brains aren't returned though, since they need preparation before they can be dissected.

We are able to completely cover the effects and make them look normal.

We can make a body look presentable to the family in almost any case. There will be a significant charge/cost for the restorative art, though. There are even a small number of us who have the skills to make a burn victim presentable. We can rebuild a head, and a face. How good it will look is up to the skill level of the mortician.

The dark humor- I don't have any examples, it just comes out- like the dark tooth fairy comment in my above reply. We don't joke about the dead, however. They are treated with dignity and respect.

Not much grosses me out. It's hard to feel squeamish about anything when you have literally had your hands in the chest cavity of hundreds of bodies. Human feces does still gross me out, though

I have not seen The Burial.

Thank you for sharing your insights, it's been very informative and interesting to read. I'd like to ask a few questions too:

1. You've said that you would not recommend your profession due to the physical and mental toll it takes, but you've also mentioned high competition among the peers in the industry.

How do you expect your field to develop overall in the coming decades? With aging Western demographics and (allegedly) rising suicide rates in teens and young adults, one would expect a continous increase in workload for morticians and everyone else that deals with dead people for a living. Do you feel like that's actually the case?

2. Are there any emerging technologies, or just changes in the way you do your job, that have the potential to reduce a mortician's individual stress level/increase efficiency? If so, do you think they have a future?

3. How do you see yourself and peers of your age group compared to older/younger morticians? Are there things your former/current mentors did better than you, at a level that you for whatever reasons aren't able to match? Are there things your "generation" of morticians has mastered to a greater extent than your predecessors? And likewise, what are the aspects you like or dislike about the generation that is just starting out in the field?

1. There is only high competition in this industry if you are located near a mortuary college. All other locations are in need of more morticians- especially rural locations.

There will be a significant increase in workload as the baby boomers start to die off, and then I expect it to taper back down a bit.

There is alway demand for good morticians, and this is an industry that will always exist.

2. Not that I am aware of. The best way to reduce stress would be for companies to hire more morticians, to spread the workload out. Compartmentalization can also help- ie: having employees who just embalm, having employees that just arrange and direct services. This is only feasible in large, typically corporate, funeral homes.

3. Not all, but most of the older morticians are kind of stuck in their ways. The mid and new generation are much more capable, especially with embalming and restorative art. There are numerous new techniques and tools and chemicals that weren't available back in the day. The field of embalming and restorative art has evolved exponentially- we don't just inject the body with formaldehyde, slap some makeup on them and call it done anymore.

 

[DeadManLiving]

I'm glad your here still with us, and hopefully the questions have not been mentally taxing. I had a feeling the families would shoot you as the messenger (instead of the message) as a form of finding a sacrificial lamb to burn at the stake in a rush for judgement when anything bad happens.

Wow thanks for answering all these questions, very interesting indeed. I feel like this is actually information that would help the public in creating a more honest discussion about death.

This is an excellent and important point! And having a mortician (maybe a suicidal coroner lurking peer weigh in, if any willing. Maybe the ... Most so afraid of death but take comfort in the Goden Years of old age retirement, the absurdity of it, as Schopenhauer best put it summarily improvising from vuage memory on his Death masterstroke:

While death may take away the good things, it also takes away the desire for them, extinguishsing the flame of sentient deprivations and urges insatiable of the human condition.

The supreme evil is not death but old age, which rapidly overtakes us ever closer without warning, in the mounting of the debts of regrets we experience in hindsight, and in depreciation of all of the pleasures of life in hindsight, leaving us only with the appetite for them, and bringing with it all it sufferings. And yet, how absurd that we fear death and desire old age.


One could only imagine the insane amount of underpaid, unnoticed, unaccounted for, and underappreciated hours and energy you spend on certain (if not most) cases going above and beyond in the embalmment - only to become a wrongful target lamb for as sacrificial scapegoat over a family affairs/religeous/other conflict, butchering the messenger, not the message is appears. Others may never know how much work you've done beyond the minimum nesessary, let alone recall your name as involved in the lionshare of the post-mortem process. Is it so, and how do you manage? Do you get thank you cards, or look forward to the day you receive them deservingly, in the absence of any expectation for one? I hope you've gotten at least a few.

On the topic of Body Brokers, these for-profit NGOs that advertise terminal patients "Donate Your Body to Science" to Advance Medical Research with you election do donate your corpse an "Anotomical Gift" upon death in exchange for the company offering free-cost covered cremation with the planting of a tree and antics of the life.

Any oppinions or qualms? I could imagine a ballistic test blasted body embalment request seems like a nightmare.

For the few who know, body brokers are legal NGO or quasi-commercial companies profiting form the sale of body parts, operating under the auspices and guise that the terminal can donate their body for science and in exchange for Free of Cost cremated at no cost with the Planting of a Tree" effect cherry on top to appeal to all falacies for your signature (no guarantee next of kin will get the decedent's ashes in whole, as there's little regulatory oversight).

These companies like ScienceCares.com target the terminal to donate their body for since, to support "research in Alzhimers" and other deceptive claims of advancing medical science, and many sign away without reading the grimsly fine-print.

The truth (after reading the very small fine print myself, corroborated by an expose) is that most of their business comes from the DoD, car crash testing, and obscure end-users as human cadavers for ballistics armor penetration testing, often blown to smitheries in simulated explosions and decimated in tactical vehicle blasts to measure the strength of armor materials science resiliance, effects on certain testing of weapons and various body armor shootouts for engineering data on exhaustion testing in the misrepresentation of what these pre-mortem subjects thought they were signing up for.

Some families have sought to confirm evidence on how their son or daughter were used as dead human crash test vehicle subjects since the human data is better than the plastic crash test dummy data. These raise both ration and moral questions on the proper disposition and profiting of the dead, anticipatory full disclosure, right of election on mode of disposition, informed consent and Right of Access to information to know how loved one's corpses were used, and if used as advertised for research "antonomical gifts," or as commercial or defense industry purposes. And even


Although it could be understood from the other side's position (grieving family), their altered mental status will snap at any and all in such times. I'm sorry you have to be the wrong target of abuse, but I hope the public becomes aware of the behind-the-scenes effort that goes into such beneficent work that lacks the altruistic recognition and appreciation it deserves. I would not doubt you've gone above and beyond the standard of care, with pro bono effort, only to be dismissed as another end-of-life "problem" to deal with by the family, unbeknown that your discretion could have very well to be a dead and cold as stone in caring for ex parte affairs, beyond compliance with best practices in respecting and handing of the individual corpse in your own due professional judgement.

It seems like most people just don't understand you and the value of your role, maybe only few. The great lengths and often triple time (anatomical body brokers, hell) in the respecting but great effort to embalming complex cases, but you still do as one would want their own (or other's) in kind, which is not always possible in perfect conformity with the family wishes.

Hoping you find your peace in life or death.

 

[mehdone]

I do receive occasional thank you cards, and it does warm my heart.

Body brokers disgust me. It is a bait and switch- families are not giving true informed consent, because the body brokers aren't giving proper information. It's also a largely unregulated industry, which should absolutely not be the case. I did briefly allude to it earlier in this thread when I mentioned that people need to research if they plan on donating their body to "science".

 

[gbi2]

It would be ideal if they pre-planned and prepaid for their funeral arrangements, and then put that paperwork into a sealed plastic bag in their pocket. This would serve two purposes:

It would keep the costs of final disposition from falling on the taxpayers- and it would keep their body from being stored in a cooler for 30 to 90 days while every effort is made to locate a next of kin or someone to claim the body.

You mentioned jumping. If someone were to jump, it would be ideal if they were wearing denim or other durable clothing. It would help to contain their bits, and it would make clean up easier.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[lastcuriosity]

I keep pestering you with questions, I hope you don't mind.

1. What do you think would be sensible policies to make dying with dignity cheaper? What is the single largest cost driver for the death industry?

2. So when the opened bodies come with a bag of what is essentially chopped up organs, do you just...keep it inside the body and burn it together for cremation? What would be the procedure for people who do viewings and burials in caskets? Does that mean autopsied bodies for viewings are actually just containing a wobbly plastic biohazard bag under the suitures?

3. Do you care about the life of the dead? Obviously you don't choose what cases you get but if you get the impression the person was quite despicable during their lifetimes, do you secretly judge them when they are in front of you? When balancing the "right for everybody to have a dignified death", do you also apply this to people who you think don't deserve that right?

4. How do morticians go about sensitive issues like gender identity and sexuality? These topics are bound to come up and cause issues with the family right? How do you deal with the more extreme cases where families are very indignant about the deads sexuality or don't want trans people to be dressed/viewed in a certain way during funerals?

 

[ThisUnrest]

After my husband died, a body donation place called me within hours, with high pressure tactics to say Yes. After i asked for all the details, i said NO to all of it. They read out the terms on the phone at very very fast pace, hoping you dont hear them properly at such a traumatic time. They said that if the body is judged to not be usable for medical donation purposes (subjectively judged), it can be used by companies for research. Including genetic research (eek), including for-profit companies. They sell you on the idea of helping a family in need, when in actuality a for-profit company could use your loved one's body for many horrific purposes. It's sickening that people are tricked in their weakest moments by such a sinister organization. It totally creeped me out!!!!! This organization has a monopoly on all donations in that entire state (in the midwest US). Sorry for the sidetrack, but it's good to hear a professional who is equally disgusted by it.

 

[Rocket]

My condolences, losing a loved one is difficult.

Thank you so much for your kindness. Losing both so soon after each other was what really spiraled me. Reading your comment about kids going before their parents, that was a huge concern of mine. It's changed my perspective on ctb but I'm taking it a day at a time.

There is absolutely a generational shift towards cremation. There is also a shift towards not having a viewing/visitation. The lack of a viewing or visitation is a shame, it can significantly help the grieving process. Even if one is cremated, they can still be embalmed and have a viewing prior to cremation.

I had no idea about an embalming and viewing before cremation, neither funeral home ever brought it up. My Dad was on the East Coast and Mom on the West Coast. If it had been offered, I might have considered it.

Dying in a cooler is incredibly rare, but it would be terrifying. You would wake up zipped into, or taped, into a large plastic body bag. If you were weak enough to be declared dead, you would likely be too weak to get yourself out of that bag. I'm not sure what kind of life detection alarm could be used. Perhaps sound detection?

Sound detection sounds like a possible solution -- anything that would help. I'm sure it's incredibly rare, but just to save the terror of one poor person sounds worth it. This could be an invention that makes somebody wealthy.

If you'd like to get an idea of what my profession is actually like, I would suggest watching the show The Casketeers. It is available on Netflix.

You are very welcome.

Will be checking The Casketeers out, thanks for the recommendation! There's so much on Netflix I never would have found it.

Thank you again, I'm really glad to hear that this topic is somewhat cathartic for you as well. I'd never want to see you overtaxed. It's a fascinating discussion and I agree with a previous poster -- everyone should have access to this true and important information. Truly one of the great threads here, the moderators should consider pinning it. Big hug to you mehdone.

 

[RicoFR]

You're very welcome. This place, and answering everyone's questions, has become a little refuge for me. It has helped me immensely.

I don't feel resentment- but as I've said previously, I do not recommend this profession. I have had family members take their grief and rage out on me. During removals, when we are removing the body from the place of death- I have had family members suddenly snap and assault me or throw things at me, because in that moment, they feel that *I* am taking their loved one away from them. Yes, I absolutely feel under-appreciated- that family will never know how many hours and how much effort I lovingly put into making their loved one look the best they possibly can for them. But that is okay. I'm not doing this for myself, I am doing it for them- and I do occasionally get thank you notes from families.

Keep in mind that I am a mortician, not a coroner. The way to rule out death by inert gas would be to find another cause of death- heart attack, etc.

Nicotine overdose could absolutely be detected via bloodwork during the autopsy. Whether or not it would be ruled accidental would depend on the scene.

In the absence of evidence, other possible causes of death would be ruled out until the most likely cause of death was determined. A death certificate will never show the cause of death as, "unknown", but that cause of death may not be accurate.

This is going to sound sick- and please know that human flesh is not appetizing in the slightest- way back when I was in mortuary college, anytime that we embalmed an autopsied body, a number of us would have a strong craving for ribs or steak afterwards, so we would go out to lunch at a local steak joint. It certainly hasn't turned me vegan, or vegetarian.

I couldn't be a butcher. While I have no problem cutting up a human body, I would struggle to cut up an animal.

I will be either cremated or "water cremated" (this is called aquamation, although the technical term is alkaline hydrolysis, see the article linked to below:)

Could Water Cremation Become the New American Way of Death?

A sustainable option for what to do with our remains is trickling into popular consciousness

www.smithsonianmag.com

My cremated remains will then be scattered in a place that holds a special part of my heart.

Prior to cremation, while I don't particularly want a service or viewing, my family is welcome to do so if it will help them accept my death and begin the grieving process.

It would be ideal if they pre-planned and prepaid for their funeral arrangements, and then put that paperwork into a sealed plastic bag in their pocket. This would serve two purposes:

It would keep the costs of final disposition from falling on the taxpayers- and it would keep their body from being stored in a cooler for 30 to 90 days while every effort is made to locate a next of kin or someone to claim the body.

You mentioned jumping. If someone were to jump, it would be ideal if they were wearing denim or other durable clothing. It would help to contain their bits, and it would make clean up easier.

You mention this place being a refugee to you.
What do you find helpful about being here?

 

[mehdone]

I keep pestering you with questions, I hope you don't mind.

1. What do you think would be sensible policies to make dying with dignity cheaper? What is the single largest cost driver for the death industry?

2. So when the opened bodies come with a bag of what is essentially chopped up organs, do you just...keep it inside the body and burn it together for cremation? What would be the procedure for people who do viewings and burials in caskets? Does that mean autopsied bodies for viewings are actually just containing a wobbly plastic biohazard bag under the suitures?

3. Do you care about the life of the dead? Obviously you don't choose what cases you get but if you get the impression the person was quite despicable during their lifetimes, do you secretly judge them when they are in front of you? When balancing the "right for everybody to have a dignified death", do you also apply this to people who you think don't deserve that right?

4. How do morticians go about sensitive issues like gender identity and sexuality? These topics are bound to come up and cause issues with the family right? How do you deal with the more extreme cases where families are very indignant about the deads sexuality or don't want trans people to be dressed/viewed in a certain way during funerals?

I don't mind at all.

1. The best way to make dying with dignity cheaper is to pre-plan and prepay it now. Payment plans are available, and it locks in the price at the time you make it.

The largest cost driver in my industry is actually the employees. Even when there is a lull in deaths, employees still need to be paid. In a slow year, that means the business may not be profitable.

2. When an autopsied body is cremated, the bag is cremated inside of them.

In the case of embalming/viewing, there are two different methods that can be used:

- the organs are soaked in cavity fluid (this is a much stronger solution of formaldehyde than what we use for arterial embalming. Cavity fluid is 40%), then the bag is tied off and placed back in the body cavity.

Or:

- the organs first soaked in cavity fluid. They are then layered inside the body cavity with no bag, and parafomaldehyde (powered formaldehyde) is sprinkled heavily on each layer.

I prefer and use the second method- it preserves better, and it also removes the possibility of piercing the bag when suturing the Y incision back up.

3. I care about the lives of the dead. And I do believe that *everyone*, despite how despicable they may have been in life, deserves dignity in death.

4. This is another reason to pre-plan and prepay. If you don't, then your legal next of kin makes the decisions on how you are dressed, et cetera. Unfortunately, with out that pre-planned and prepaid arrangement in place, I am legally bound to follow the wishes of the next of kin. And it is heartbreaking.

After my husband died, a body donation place called me within hours, with high pressure tactics to say Yes. After i asked for all the details, i said NO to all of it. They read out the terms on the phone at very very fast pace, hoping you dont hear them properly at such a traumatic time. They said that if the body is judged to not be usable for medical donation purposes (subjectively judged), it can be used by companies for research. Including genetic research (eek), including for-profit companies. They sell you on the idea of helping a family in need, when in actuality a for-profit company could use your loved one's body for many horrific purposes. It's sickening that people are tricked in their weakest moments by such a sinister organization. It totally creeped me out!!!!! This organization has a monopoly on all donations in that entire state (in the midwest US). Sorry for the sidetrack, but it's good to hear a professional who is equally disgusted by it.

Exactly. It is disgusting, and it is preying on families when they are vulnerable. It is not okay.

I am an organ donor- but certainly not a body donor.

Thank you so much for your kindness. Losing both so soon after each other was what really spiraled me. Reading your comment about kids going before their parents, that was a huge concern of mine. It's changed my perspective on ctb but I'm taking it a day at a time.



I had no idea about an embalming and viewing before cremation, neither funeral home ever brought it up. My Dad was on the East Coast and Mom on the West Coast. If it had been offered, I might have considered it.



Sound detection sounds like a possible solution -- anything that would help. I'm sure it's incredibly rare, but just to save the terror of one poor person sounds worth it. This could be an invention that makes somebody wealthy.



Will be checking The Casketeers out, thanks for the recommendation! There's so much on Netflix I never would have found it.

Thank you again, I'm really glad to hear that this topic is somewhat cathartic for you as well. I'd never want to see you overtaxed. It's a fascinating discussion and I agree with a previous poster -- everyone should have access to this true and important information. Truly one of the great threads here, the moderators should consider pinning it. Big hug to you mehdone.

You're very welcome.

It's unfortunate that neither funeral home even brought it up. I've offered it to every single family I have ever arranged a cremation for. Viewings can help incredibly with the grieving process.

The Casketeers is a great show, and is the only one I've seen so far that accurately portrays my industry.

You mention this place being a refugee to you.
What do you find helpful about being here?

It helps me to not feel alone- and to be able to openly discuss my feelings and desire to ctb.

I'm also enjoying helping you folks by getting accurate information out there. It's not thankless, like my day to day.

 

[RicoFR]

Do you think your professional exposure to death has increased your desire to CTB?
I.e. were you already determined to CTB before you became a mortician?

 

[mehdone]

Do you think your professional exposure to death has increased your desire to CTB?
I.e. were you already determined to CTB before you became a mortician?

I was determined far prior to becoming a mortician- however, this profession has certainly given me a much deeper respect for death, as well as its impact on the survivors.

 

[viadolorosa]

Thanks for your contributions, mehdone!

My question is about firing a shotgun towards the heart. (Likely 12 gauge US3-5 if that matters.)

Will it just be a hole in the chest and lots of blood? Or will the chest blow open with flesh and bones all over the place?

Can a normal mortician make the body look decent for open casket even in the second case?