What Is Your Sexuality?

[Brink]

Genital preferences are valid, excluding all transgender people from the dating pool on principle isn't.

Doublethink.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Doublethink.

And there you go, exposing your own bias while you make assumptions about all trans people and their genitals based on stereotypes and rumors. That's hilarious for someone who tried to come at me for "neurosexist" science. You're as progressive as a loaf of bread.

 

[Brink]

And there you go, exposing your own bias while you make assumptions about all trans people and their genitals based on stereotypes and rumors. That's hilarious for someone who tried to come at me for "neurosexist" science. You're as progressive as a loaf of bread.

It was neurosexist from the perspective of many in academia and the scientific community.

I'm coming from the perspective of a gay man who is attracted to masculinity in males and the male-form. I will never let you invalidate me (a minority in society) to validate another minority community.

Arguing against (a type of) homosexuality isn't very progressive either.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[RainAndSadness]

It was neurosexist from the perspective of many in academia and the scientific community.

I'm coming from the perspective of a gay man who is attracted to masculinity in males and the male-form. I will never let you invalidate me (a minority in society) to validate another minority community.

Arguing against (a type of) homosexuality isn't very progressive either.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

No it wasn't and if you had read the study you would know that it said that trans people have a brain structure that "resembles" that of their desired gender. I never implied that brains are binary, that was your assumption and that's your fault for not reading the study.

Sure but I don't care about your identity. I'm not a big fan of identity politics so your own identity doesn't matter in this discussion. If you exclude all black men or all trans men from the dating pool, the difference is minimal and according to scientific observations, it's a bias. That's my point.
Plus when you do that, you agree that trans men aren't men because as someone who is attracted to men, you shouldn't feel much of an issue there, right? This just shows what you truly think of trans people then.

That's you when you're assuming to know what genitals all trans people have:


But it's interesting that you mention that you're gay, as someone who was excluded and treated differently by society for decades, it must surely feel empowering to give back that same oppression to trans people. Have fun, glad to know where our allies stand.

 

[◄✵火✵〇°Ø•WÅR•Ī°〇✵火✵►]

Just coming back to say that the reason why I defended op is because I personally believe that some trans people want to, for whatever reason, be transparent and upfront in regards to the gender they were born as... Something along the lines of "I am a female but I am a trans female. I was born a male but I *insert life experiences*. I like *insert prefered type of beings*. Therefore, I am *insert label that the person finds appopriate for themselves*"

So, in my opinion, the options MtoF prefers M, etc. are relevant... And op said they were trying to be inclusive and I see how. It may appear a bit clumsy but the feature to add unlimited amounts of options in a poll isn't available (yet...maybe...). However, they did add the "Other" option...

It makes me sad to see so much misunderstanding and arguing but it is what it is, I guess. Peace to all.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Just coming back to say that the reason why I defended op is because I personally believe that some trans people want to, for whatever reason, be transparent and upfront in regards to the gender they were born as... Something along the lines of "I am a female but I am a trans female. I was born a male but I *insert life experiences*. I like *insert prefered type of beings*. Therefore, I am *insert label that the person finds appopriate for themselves*"

I agree with you but when someone says "I don't trans people because I'm not attracted to them", why would any of us need to disclose our trans background in the first place? Apparently, you can see and feel that we're trans, so why would that be necessary? Because we all know, that's not the reality, there are so many trans people with a decent passing. Also I hate to break it to you but we're not obligated to tell anyone what's on our birth certificate and I know plenty of trans people that don't do that because they're "stealth". And if you can't figure out that someone is trans, that's your problem, sorry. It's possible some of you even had sex with a trans person without knowing, what a shame.

 

[Breakout92]

Isn't some of the weirdness of the poll that it implies that the sexuality of trans people is different than the sexuality of cis people?

Like everyone's talking about being attracted to trans people differently to cis people, but the poll implies that trans people feel attraction to others differently from the way cis people do.

 

[Brink]

I won't respond to most of your message because we disagree on so much, and I don't know if this is the place for that. We're both suicidal, after all.

I will defend my rights and the rights of others, but I don't see the point in arguing further with you. We have very different worldviews.

But it's interesting that you mention that you're gay, as someone who was excluded and treated differently by society for decades, it must surely feel empowering to give back that same oppression to trans people. Have fun, glad to know where our allies stand.

I will say that this doesn't feel fun or good in any way. That you feel oppressed after hearing my opinions and boundaries genuinely makes me feel sad.

I am an ally. I support trans rights and have had many trans friends over the years. Many trans people agree with me and reject this gender ideology and radical trans activism.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I won't respond to most of your message because we disagree on so much, and I don't know if this is the place for that. We're both suicidal, after all.

I will defend my rights and the rights of others, but I don't see the point in arguing further with you. We have very different worldviews.

I will say that this doesn't feel fun or good in any way. That you feel oppressed after hearing my opinions and boundaries genuinely makes me feel sad.

I am an ally. I support trans rights and have had many trans friends over the years. Many trans people agree with me and reject this gender ideology and radical trans activism.

Sure. But if you, as a gay person say that you're attracted to men and in the same breath, you exclude trans men from the dating pool, you imply that you don't see them as men. That's why allies started to spread the term "trans women are women, trans men are men" because there should be no difference in treatment and perception. That's my criticism. I hope you understand my angle and point of view and why I don't believe that this kind of exclusion resembles support. I also don't believe that your trans friends would agree with you there.

I don't think asking for equal treatment in social situations is "radical trans activism" but the same arguments against trans activists were put forward by the anti-gay community against gay people that asked for equal rights many years ago so I don't judge you. I know that many gay people step into the same shoes of people that rejected social progress decades ago when it came to homosexuality. It's just sad to see that people in allied communities defend the outdated views that were expressed in this thread.

 

[Tortured_empath]

Not-getting-any-sex-ual

 

[motel rooms]

But if you, as a gay person say that you're attracted to men and in the same breath, you exclude trans men from the dating pool, you imply that you don't see them as men.

But most gay men (cis or trans) are not sexually attracted to all the other (cis or trans) men. Each person has their own sexual preferences. Just because I'm not sexually attracted to all kinds of human beings doesn't make me their enemy or disqualify me from being able to be their ally

 

[RainAndSadness]

But most gay men (cis or trans) are not sexually attracted to all the other (cis or trans) men. Each person has their own sexual preferences. Just because I'm not sexually attracted to all kinds of human beings doesn't make me their enemy or disqualify me from being able to be their ally

That's exactly my point. It's alright to have preferences. For example if you have a desire for offspring, it would make sense that you're not compatible with a trans woman because most of us aren't fertile. That's totally valid but this reason has nothing to do with them being trans because this very same condition also applies to some cis-women. It's related to their fertility and inability to have children. That's my point and it's very important how you justify and express exclusion of people when it comes to dating. There are transphobic and understandable reasons why you wouldn't date certain people. Them being trans is never a valid reason.

 

[Celerity]

Sigh. Genital preferences are valid, excluding all transgender people from the dating pool on principle isn't. It's very discriminatory to make a distinction between cis and trans people in a poll about sexual orientation because these two things have nothing to do with each other. That's not just my opinion, that's the opinion of all trans people I've asked this question so far. They also pointed out that including "transsexuals" in such poll while excluding transgender and nonbinary people is quite problematic. Not sure why we're having this discussion in the 21. century and why people are defending such an outdated poll in the first place. Trans people simply want to get treated like any other people on this planet yet for some reason, the ones who mean "best" are the ones who constantly exclude us and put an emphasis on us being trans. This isn't the only defining factor of us as humans. If you don't understand that, there is nothing I can do for you.



And should we be proud that most people have a bias when it comes to dating? How can anyone use this study to justify the options in this poll?

If preferences are bigoted, then I'm going to accept the label of bigot. Acceptance isn't enough? We have to want to fuck you too? Do you realize how entitled you sound?

But most gay men (cis or trans) are not sexually attracted to all the other (cis or trans) men. Each person has their own sexual preferences. Just because I'm not sexually attracted to all kinds of human beings doesn't make me their enemy or disqualify me from being able to be their ally

Exactly. I don't understand this argument at all. I am not going to change my sexuality to be a "good ally". Absolutely not. I shouldn't have to want to fuck you to respect your rights.

 

[RainAndSadness]

If preferences are bigoted, then I'm going to accept the label of bigot. Acceptance isn't enough? We have to want to tuck you too? Do you realize how entitled you sound?

I never said that but I've heard reading and understanding is a very difficult task. Learn how to read, bigot.

Genital preferences are valid

Genital preferences are valid, excluding all transgender people from the dating pool on principle isn't.

having genital preferences isn't the same thing as excluding all trans people from the dating pool on principle

I've said it often enough, sexual preferences aren't the controversy here.

It's alright to have preferences.

 

[Celerity]

I never said that but I've heard reading and understanding is a very difficult task.



Learn how to read, bigot.

How can genital preferences get along with including trans people in the dating pool? If you prefer genitals to match gender identity, that's not going to work. And yeah, I love being a bigot if it means excluding rude, entitled people like you.

 

[RainAndSadness]

How can genital preferences get along with including trans people in the dating pool? If you prefer genitals to match gender identity, that's not going to work.

Genitals of transgender people do match gender identity though.

And yeah, I love being a bigot if it means excluding rude, entitled people like you.

Dude, I knew you were a bigot when I first saw this thread lol. You think I'm surprised after you've acted like a transphobe for the last 4 pages.

 

[Celerity]

Genitals of transgender people do match gender identity though. Dude, I knew you were a bigot when I first saw this thread lol.

Wtf? Because I tried to be inclusive by adding trans options in the poll? Why don't you fuck off? Not in the mood for girl dick or boy vagina, bro/chick (not trying to offend, don't see gender in your profile).
If you have a problem, @AngelGoddess, why don't you say something instead of hiding behind someone else?

 

[RainAndSadness]

Wtf? Because I tried to be inclusive by adding trans options in the poll? Why don't you fuck off? Not in the mood for girl dick or boy vagina, bro/chick.

You're free to exclude trans people from dating but you're not gonna exclude me from this thread, buddy. Trans women have a working vagina, as I explained before, they self-lubricate, experience multiple orgasms, allow penetration and much more. I've also explained before that neo-vaginas are often more aesthetically pleasing than vaginas of cis-women because it's basically a free plastic surgery performed on their genitals by surgeons specialized in vaginoplasty - therefore you can design a vagina after your wishes and desires. You can modify anything to your pleasure. Size of labia, clitoris, etc.

 

[Celerity]

You're free to exclude trans people from dating but you're not gonna exclude me from this thread, buddy. Trans women have a working vagina, as I explained before, they self-lubricate, experience multiple orgasms, allow penetration and much more. I've also explained before that neo-vaginas are often more aesthetically pleasing because it's basically a plastic surgery performed on genitals, therefore you can design a vagina after your wishes and desires. You can modify anything to your pleasure. Size of labias, clitoris, etc.

You're free to stay in the thread (not like I can stop you), but I really don't see the point in continuing this conversation. I am not the only person here with this very common position but have received 10X the backlash because I started the thread.

 

[RainAndSadness]

You're free to stay in the thread (not like I can stop you), but I really don't see the point in continuing this conversation. I am not the only person here with this very common position but have received 10X the backlash because I started the thread.

Well, a position being common doesn't justify it. Racial segregation was common too at some point in history. I've debunked your arguments in great detail, that's all I care about.

 

[Celerity]

Well, a position being common doesn't justify it. Slavery was common too at some point in history. I've debunked your arguments in great detail, that's all I care about.

"Debunked". Keep telling yourself that. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Breakout92]

I've never in my life felt pressured to be attracted to or have sex with someone I'm not interested in and i really don't understand where people get that idea. Nothing in RainAndSadness's posts, nor any prior e.g. twitter arguments I've seen put that pressure on me. I have preferences that probably exclude a lot of FtMs, but I'm not going to say that I'm not attracted to FtMs as a catch all because that's ridiculous. Those preferences probably exclude a lot of cis guys too, and there's probably a lot of FtMs that wouldn't be excluded by those preferences.

Also there's a distinction between being attracted to someone and being willing to have sex/date them. If a woman can't have kids does that really make them less attractive to some men, or does it just affect willingness to date?

 

[RainAndSadness]

"Debunked". Keep telling yourself that. We'll have to agree to disagree.

You said trans people don't have genitals matching their gender identity. I debunked that statement. There are plenty of trans women with very beautiful vaginas for example, you wouldn't even know it's a neo-vaginas unless someone told you.

 

[Celerity]

You said trans people don't have genitals matching their gender identity. I debunked that statement. There are plenty of trans women with very beautiful vaginas, you wouldn't even know it's a neo-vaginas unless someone told you.

Sure. Alright. This convo was over a while ago. You really like to hear yourself talk, clearly.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Sure. Alright. This convo was over a while ago. You really like to hear yourself talk, clearly.

This might be true but then again, there are actual arguments in my posts, not just flaming and outrage and pity attempts to invalidate trans people.

 

[Fragile]

This came out a bit argumentative on my part, but I want to remind everyone before they read that I strongly support trans people, or anyone who wants to do whatever they want with their bodies for whatever reason they have, I just hate the entire wokeness of this topic and the accusations that are constantly thrown at anyone who challenges their narrative.
I also highly enjoy this discussion even if my brain is literally turning into mush.

You're missing the point... being pro-choice has nothing to do with being biased. Like you have every right to make decisions based on personal preferences but don't expect to get applause if you, for example, exclude all black people (to use a more visual example) from the dating pool. Such exclusive ideas are considered a racial bias by the scientific community - don't believe me? I can show you studies that examine such preferences from a scientific standpoint. And I don't care what arguments you propose to justify racial or sexual bias. It's shady and I'm gonna call that out, deal with that.



What's your point? You even acknowledge that trans people can achieve a great passing right in your second sentence. So in what way does that correlate to people that exclude all trans people from the dating pool? If it's about looks, I can assure you that you've probably walked past trans people without even noticing. So you'd have no reason to reject them unless they told you about their trans background... or to put it extremely simple because the concept of bias seems to be very difficult to grasp for some people in this thread, let me express myself in form of a meme.

View attachment 66824



Why are you talking about genitals now? Do you know what genitals I have in my pants? Do you know what genitals all trans people have in their pants? Why does that matter when we're talking about trans people? Do you ask cis-people about their genitals on your first date or what's that obsession with genitals about? Once again you're expressing your bias because you make assumptions about all trans people and their genitals based on stereotypes and rumors, in other words, nothing but hot hair. And what do you know about genital surgery in the first place? You're not trans and I doubt you've ever seen a neo-vagina in real life. But that's quite interesting, maybe you start to give me some details about what's "not satisfactory" about the results of these surgeries, according to your post you seem to know a lot about that process, right? I'm sure your opinion is solely based on experience and scientific facts, right? Anything else would just confirm that you're arguing from a biased point of view.

And I can assure you, you wouldn't know the difference between a neo-vagina and a natal-vagina anyway. Trans women people can have multiple orgasms, squirt, experience penetration, self-lubricate, the list goes on - the biological functions are there. I'd even make the case that neo-vaginas are more aesthetic than natal-vaginas because their vagina is designed by surgeons that are specialized in vaginoplasty, so it's basically a free plastic surgery on genitals and they take your own wishes and suggestions about your optimal, personal vagina into account when performing the surgery. Quite an upgrade compared to natal-genitals, right?



Nobody denied that. You're completely missing the point. Once again, and maybe you'll understand it if I repeat myself just often enough: having genital preferences isn't the same thing as excluding all trans people from the dating pool on principle - and that's the point I'm trying to make here. If you decide not to date an individual because there are specific aspects you don't like about them, that's your right. But excluding them all from the dating pool because they belong to a specific group of people is discriminatory.

And don't come at me with homosexuality, I've heard this argument plenty of times. It's an entirely different subject but it proves you wrong. There are countless of lesbian and gay people that date trans people just fine - because their genitals match their preferences and they're not an asshole about what genitals they had 20 years ago. Some food for thought.

Like the difference between a trans lesbian and a cis lesbian are minor. It's the birth certificate, completely irrelevant when it comes to dating.



I've said it often enough, sexual preferences aren't the controversy here. The transphobia and obvious bias that's implied with statements like "I don't date trans people" is the issue.

With all of this you are proving my point. Because it's clear and undeniable that you are extremely biased towards the trans perspective, and that's fine. Different perspectives are what define the human experience, and the way I see it, being pro-choice has everything to do with being biased and accepting the inherent bias of other people.

You are trans, you have a lot of trans friends and you spend time on trans echo chambers like trans-twitter judging by the "meme" you posted (twitter captures are Not memes, fight me) It's obvious that you have a different and biased perspective, but your perspective is not absolute and the people who don't share it are NOT phobic, racist or bigots.

Are people who follow their reproductive needs and want offspring inherently transphobic?
Are gay or lesbian people who prefer natural genitals transphobic?
Am I, as an asexual, the biggest phobe of all because I don't want to have relationships?

There are many reasons as to why you would exclude a group of people from your dating pool, it's that simple, preference.

What's your point? You even acknowledge that trans people can achieve a great passing right in your second sentence. So in what way does that correlate to people that exclude all trans people from the dating pool? If it's about looks, I can assure you that you've probably walked past trans people without even noticing. So you'd have no reason to reject them unless they told you about their trans background... or to put it extremely simple because the concept of bias seems to be very difficult to grasp for some people in this thread, let me express myself in form of a meme.

Why are you talking about genitals now? Do you know what genitals I have in my pants? Do you know what genitals all trans people have in their pants? Why does that matter when we're talking about trans people? Do you ask cis-people about their genitals on your first date or what's that obsession with genitals about? Once again you're expressing your bias because you make assumptions about all trans people and their genitals based on stereotypes and rumors, in other words, nothing but hot hair. And what do you know about genital surgery in the first place? You're not trans and I doubt you've ever seen a neo-vagina in real life. But that's quite interesting, maybe you start to give me some details about what's "not satisfactory" about the results of these surgeries, according to your post you seem to know a lot about that process, right? I'm sure your opinion is solely based on experience and scientific facts, right? Anything else would just confirm that you're arguing from a biased point of view.

And I can assure you, you wouldn't know the difference between a neo-vagina and a natal-vagina anyway. Trans women people can have multiple orgasms, squirt, experience penetration, self-lubricate, the list goes on - the biological functions are there. I'd even make the case that neo-vaginas are more aesthetic than natal-vaginas because their vagina is designed by surgeons that are specialized in vaginoplasty, so it's basically a free plastic surgery on genitals and they take your own wishes and suggestions about your optimal, personal vagina into account when performing the surgery. Quite an upgrade compared to natal-genitals, right?

I've done more than enough and thorough research into this topic, NO, neovaginas and neopenises do not look like real ones, they function in completely different ways and not all people are into them because of that. They are an imitation, not the real ones.

Why have I done so much research into this? because at some point when I was younger I felt different, and this was some rhetoric that my woke friends got me into, then after seeing the procedure, the way it fails to imitate real genitals and the amount of care that you have to take after the surgery, plus the possibility that it may cause some great harm to the nerves and other stuff, I just said "nah, I'm good and this is not the person I want to be". I grew out of it for a multitude of reasons, like many people do.

And about your point about trans being difficult to tell from people of their preferred gender in the street, I have long hair, fair complexion and a slender body, people have mistaken me many times for a female even if I'm not trying to look like one. But upon a closer look they can instantly tell that I have inherent masculine features. The same goes for the vast majority of trans people, yes there are some that absolutely look the part, but with the majority you can tell, weather it's the voice, bone structure or other secondary features of their biologic gender, it's really hard to hide or change some things about our bodies.

No it wasn't and if you had read the study you would know that it said that trans people have a brain structure that "resembles" that of their desired gender. I never implied that brains are binary, that was your assumption and that's your fault for not reading the study.

You've mentioned brain structure in other post, I didn't wanted to get into it since this is a sensitive topic, but I can't have it no more.

The studies and information that you presented are merely evidence, not real and definitive conclusions, just the foundation of something that is still highly theoretical. As far as I know, even the multiple genders question is something that is still up to debate.

Science is something that is constantly evolving, changing and broadening itself, the thing that has disproven science the most is science itself by that same process. And it's also highly susceptible to political, religious or other ideological parties putting their own bias into it.

You don't need science to validate yourself, specially not controversial and debated science that is still a long way from giving us a real answer.

Brain anatomy is especially hard to figure out, it's funny, because the things you presented about trans having similar brain structures to the ones in the gender they believe they are, are also consistent in autism, which is actually one of the most common diagnoses in trans and queer identities.

Here's an interesting research about this, they scaned many autistic people in the high functioning category and found that they have similar patterns to the other gender https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884321/

And don't even get me started on the corrupt DSM-5 with it's economic interest and moral bankruptcy, and the academic mafia that will chase you out the moment that you stop singing praises about trans people, there is no way to prove or disprove them since some people are now treating science as a religion, which it should be the opposite of.

This entire mindset has really killed science for me, not because of trans, but because the religious aspect of postmodern science.

 

[RainAndSadness]

[...] I strongly support trans people, or anyone who wants to do whatever they want with their bodies for whatever reason they have[...]

I've heard this so often in this thread from the very same people that think it's completely fine to reduce trans people into a label and exclude them from the dating pool completely or believe that we can't possibly have genitals that match our gender identity. Sorry, I hope this doesn't come across as insulting but I think actions speak louder than words in this case. Declaring that you're an ally or supportive of trans people doesn't make it true, you know what I mean? I'm so done with empty platitudes of so-called allies just to have them stab my back when it's convenient or when it requires self-reflection of their behavior.

With all of this you are proving my point. Because it's clear and undeniable that you are extremely biased towards the trans perspective, and that's fine. Different perspectives are what define the human experience, and the way I see it, being pro-choice has everything to do with being biased and accepting the inherent bias of other people.

Yeah but I don't base my arguments of the fact that I'm trans, I actually make solid scientific arguments that prove my point. I don't like identity politics and I've never argued with my own personal feelings, so I'm gonna disagree with you there. I'm explicitly trying to avoid making my own identity the front and center of this debate. I care a lot about the substance, not so much about your background.

You are trans, you have a lot of trans friends and you spend time on trans echo chambers like trans-twitter judging by the "meme" you posted (twitter captures are Not memes, fight me) It's obvious that you have a different and biased perspective, but your perspective is not absolute and the people who don't share it are NOT phobic, racist or bigots.

Also, I don't actually spend time on trans-echo chambers at all. I've had so much beef with trans people and that's because we're a very diverse group with different beliefs, so you're wrong there.
We'll get back to your claim that having certain perspectives isn't -phobic, racist or bigotry in a bit.

Are people who follow their reproductive needs and want offspring inherently transphobic?
Are gay or lesbian people who prefer natural genitals transphobic?
Am I, as an asexual, the biggest phobe of all because I don't want to have relationships?

No.
Yes.
No.

It's valid to reproduce and pick a partner based on that desire but I already clarified that before.
Yes, it's transphobic to seek out "natural" genitals because that doesn't exist. It's an empty talking point, as I've explained previously - neo-vaginas have the same biological functions as a natal-vagina. Trans women can experience multiple orgasms, penetration, squirt and even self-lubricate. There is no functional difference between both vaginas.

Also, the vagina and the penis are made out of the same parts, here is a visual explanation.



The surgery simply takes those parts, for example a penis, changes size and location, and it's basically a vagina. It's not that complicated, you simply reduce the size of all those parts a lot in the case of a vaginoplasty. That's why creating a neo-vagina is much easier than creating a neo-penis because there simply isn't as much tissue available that way around. The clitoris is basically the glans, so yeah, talking about genital preferences there...

If you're asexual, that's your beer. But being asexual doesn't mean you don't enter relationships, it's more an aversion towards sexual interaction with other people, as far as I know.

There are many reasons as to why you would exclude a group of people from your dating pool, it's that simple, preference.

Alright, so if the justification never plays any role whatsoever, would you say it's okay if a white person says they don't date black people? I'm curious. I'd say the explanation as to why that might be the case would be interesting but it seems like excluding all people of color from the dating pool could never be racist, according to your post? Is it really THAT simple, Fragile? Do you REALLY believe that?

I've done more than enough and thorough research into this topic, NO, neovaginas and neopenises do not look like real ones, they function in completely different ways and not all people are into them because of that. They are an imitation, not the real ones.

Now, explain to me, what scientific evidence do you have for these claims? You said you did research, what kind of research? I've talked to doctors, to trans people, to surgeons, to a shitload of experts because I have to deal with them regularly - they all agree that a neo-vagina looks like a natal-vagina. Obviously, there is a range of good and bad outcomes of that surgery but generally speaking, a neo-vagina comes close to a natal-vagina. I've seen more than enough examples and I've read studies that observed this topic from a scientific point of view. I had partners that had a neo-vagina and I had partners that had a natal-vagina. Both worked just fine. So I'm curious, what's your scientific source here?

Why have I done so much research into this? because at some point when I was younger I felt different, and this was some rhetoric that my woke friends got me into, then after seeing the procedure, the way it fails to imitate real genitals and the amount of care that you have to take after the surgery, plus the possibility that it may cause some great harm to the nerves and other stuff, I just said "nah, I'm good and this is not the person I want to be". I grew out of it for a multitude of reasons, like many people do.

You need to elaborate, Fragile. In what ways does it fail to imitate a real genital? How many examples did you observe? How many years ago did that happen? Like, there are so many questions to ask after such a generalization. You know that there are different techniques to create a neo-vagina, which will lead to different results, right? Did you dig into this subjec, really? I don't think so. I could show you vaginas that just look like natal-vaginas, no problem - you couldn't tell them apart. I bet 100 dollars on that. Sadly, that would break the rules, not sure if showing female genitalia for "scientific purposes" would justify posting such content here.

It's true, you have to take a lot of care of the neo-vagina but trust me, any vagina requires attention. Go ask some cis-women.

And about your point about trans being difficult to tell from people of their preferred gender in the street, I have long hair, fair complexion and a slender body, people have mistaken me many times for a female even if I'm not trying to look like one. But upon a closer look they can instantly tell that I have inherent masculine features. The same goes for the vast majority of trans people, yes there are some that absolutely look the part, but with the majority you can tell, weather it's the voice, bone structure or other secondary features of their biologic gender, it's really hard to hide or change some things about our bodies.

That's also not true and it's quite brave to make such a generalization of millions of trans people, don't you think? Is that something an ally would say? "The vast majority", what does that mean, Fragile? Where do you take these numbers from? Did you conduct a scientific study to measure passing of trans people? Do all trans people fail equally in their attempt to pass? Odd, such harsh sentences so far away from the truth coming from a "supporter". Did you maybe realize that you don't notice well-passing trans people because they pass and therefore are stealth? Do these people appear in your statistics about passing trans people? Some food for thought, Fragile.

You know, I just had FFS and obviously, it's a matter of effort. There are privileged trans women that can afford surgery to erase all the masculine facial features and there are trans women that don't have that amount of money to afford these procedures. Once again, I know plenty of trans people that pass, without any big struggles. I'd love to post pictures here but that would violate their privacy rights so there isn't much I can do in that regards. Also, a person that's been transitioning for 5 years will have a much better passing than someone who just started, that's obvious. And I can tell you that trans men have no issues at all when it comes to passing. The hormones alone do a lot of work, in most cases there is no surgery needed.

Now, you said you're supporting trans rights. What's your opinion of puberty blockers?

You've mentioned brain structure in other post, I didn't wanted to get into it since this is a sensitive topic, but I can't have it no more.

The studies and information that you presented are merely evidence, not real and definitive conclusions, just the foundation of something that is still highly theoretical. As far as I know, even the multiple genders question is something that is still up to debate.

The study I've posted have been replicated a lot, that's not even controversial.

Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Brain activity and structure in transgender adolescents more closely resembles the typical activation patterns of their desired gender, according to new research. The findings suggest that differences in brain function may occur early in development and that brain imaging may be a useful tool...

www.sciencedaily.com

Mike Colagrossi

bigthink.com

Science is something that is constantly evolving, changing and broadening itself, the thing that has disproven science the most is science itself by that same process. And it's also highly susceptible to political, religious or other ideological parties putting their own bias into it.

Well, I believe in science and I base my worldview on empirical data. So if you reject scientific evidence, that's your problem, not mine.

And don't even get me started on the corrupt DSM-5 with it's economic interest and moral bankruptcy, and the academic mafia that will chase you out the moment that you stop singing praises about trans people, there is no way to prove or disprove them since some people are now treating science as a religion, which it should be the opposite of.

Do you think the academic mafia, as you call them, maybe supports trans people because there is scientific evidence that suggest that they're valid and the best way to treat them is actually confirming their gender identity and supporting their transition? I mean, you have a shitload of transphobic, anti-scientific talking points for someone who claims to be supportive, Fragile. Tell me, what exactly makes you an ally? Do you actually step in and defend the rights of trans people or do you just like to brag about being an ally on suicide forums, just like other people in this thread?
You said the genitalia of trans people doesn't look natural. You said the vast majority of trans people don't pass. None of those statements are factual and supported by evidence, it's simply an opinion based on hot air. You also said it's always okay to exclude groups of people from the dating pool, completely denying that bias or bigotry even exists.

It's just so depressing that we always have to justify and explain standing up for our rights. We're not talking about your rights, Fragile, we're talking about ours. It's always trans people that need to stand up for themselves and listen to discriminatory and degrading bullshit. And allies like you make claims like we can't have natural looking/real genitals or the majority of us don't pass, which is absolutely insulting. We don't need allies like you, Fragile. In fact, it's people like you that harm us the most because your world view isn't that much different than the world view of a transphobe. You just don't say it in such a nasty way as they do. But your talking points in your posts were absolutely disgusting. Yikes man. That certainly fuels my depression. It's that sentiment that drives so many of us into suicide ideation, by the way - just in case, you didn't notice.

 

[Celerity]

I would like to request that this thread be closed because it has gotten wildly off-topic and combative. Probably should have closed it on page 2.

 

[RainAndSadness]

I would like to request that this thread be closed because it has gotten wildly off-topic and combative. Probably should have closed it on page 2.

You're right.