Discussion Some one explain to me the cause of Ukraine Vs Russia war in simple terms..like you are explaining to a 10 year old

[GrumpyFrog]

I found out that one of group's member supports a person named Stepan Bandera who organized Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and fought along with Nazy Germany doing the dirty jobs for them by torturing and killing hundreds of thousands of polish people when victims were subject to animalistic tortures before dying. They were also responsible for slaughter of 1.5 million Ukrainian jews. I haven't mention how many Russian armed and unarmed people they killed but do you own research.

I found Polish archive recently and saw photos, pictures, information. When I saw it, an anger started to build inside me for atrocities these people committed and to this day deny what they did. Ukraine nationalists here see that person as their leader to this day and I saw that on Facebook page of group's member. With recent demonstration, they basically sold out my country because they are proponents of their leader's ideals to this day which is to survive and become independent at all costs.

I take no sides in their conflict between Russia but now that I see a true face of these rats and their entitled and audacious behavior in countries who accept them today as refugees I despise them and would side with Russia only if it had good intentions for their own people which they don't.

Whatever country you live in, would you say you don't have people with stupid political/historical opinions?
Would you say you do not have any nationalist/far right?

 

[diyCTB]

@Nessie We don't have people who conduct anti-Semitic events or events with hatred towards other ethnic groups of population.

 

[Depressed Cat]

What about your nationalists though? Have they not got any skeletons in their closets and pretend like nothing happened?

...

Don't bring your conflict in other countries and learn to behave. They do not own you anything! Especially poles and jews.

Have you gone absolutely crazy?

Just because I proudly fly the Ukrainian flag that doesn't mean I'm a Ukrainian. And I'm not one, FYI.

What do you have to say about the genocide & heinous crimes against humanity being committed by the barbaric Russian invaders, crimes that are being committed right in front of your eyes?

What do you have to say about the cowardly Russians who are cheering on the crimes of their fellow Russian barbarians by using the letter 'Z' as the new symbol for evil, fascism, Nazism, genocide and war crimes, just as the Nazis used the swastika 卐 ???

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Okay. I digress. All of us deserve to die a horrible death then. Collective responsibility or whatever. I get it. Fine.
Fuck this shit.

 

[Depressed Cat]

Okay. I digress. All of us deserve to die a horrible death then. Collective responsibility or whatever. I get it. Fine.
Fuck this shit.

No, Nessie! Don't be disheartened, please! Remember when I told you of irredeemable people who have been brainwashed hopelessly by the new fascist-Nazi genocidal dictator Poo-tin's propaganda machine? Just ignore them, they are lost and irredeemable.

They don't even happen to know that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the democratically elected President of Ukraine, happens to be Jewish himself, and a descendant of Holocaust survivors at that. How can Bandera's followers even elect a Jewish President, or rally behind one? They don't even think about such things, because they have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Kremlin's horrible lies.

 

[YourNeighbor]

It's kind of funny that everyone with a pulse fancies themselves an expert in history and political science.

Putin's Russia just passed a law criminalizing (with up to 15 years) anyone who presents explanations of the invasion that do not match up to the official Russian line. That's a good indicator that the government of Russia, and anyone repeating its lies, is full of shit. Objective truths do not need censorship and criminal laws to protect them.

Short answer to the original question: in 2013-2014, the Ukrainian people overthrew a corrupt and brutal puppet of the Russian regime, and as a people declared their intention to integrate with the West. The benefits of such integration are clear to anyone who compares the development of Ukraine, Belarus, or Russia after 1991 to Poland, Czech Republic, the Baltic states, etc. European integration -> far less corruption, better general welfare, and freedom to live and think.

Putin has always openly lamented the fall of the Soviet Union, and cannot tolerate a large democracy with a large Russian speaking population on Russia's borders, because it would threaten his dictatorship. Russians would want freedom and modernization too. So he invaded Ukraine to prevent its integration with the West, as the EU and especially NATO would be unlikely to accept a member in active war with Russia.

NATO is a defensive alliance, so is not a threat to Russia. It only threatens Russia's ability to invade its neighbors. If NATO was a threat to Russia, it could be in Moscow by now as half the Russian army is stuck in Ukraine.

Had Russia adopted a liberal democracy in the 90s and 2000s, it too could have sought EU and NATO membership. Imagine how great that would be. Instead, Russia has been captured by a dictator and turned into a mafia state, and that dictator is willing to do everything to stay in power regardless of whether it is good for Russia and its people.

Nationalism (sayings like Ukraine is Russia, etc.) is mainly a cover to confuse and mobilize the ignorant. It's a way to make a group seem like "the others," and so easy to target and dehumanize. Ignore the noise.

 

[whywere]

The one aspect that seems that so many people are missing is that we are ALL the same, we are ALL one and we are ALL together on this world.

Unless we want to be like the dinosaurs and become extinct, we better learn to work, live and evolve together, as ONE species period.

Human nature is such that there is the preverbal two edge sword of intelligence and the negative of such. We are BETTER than what is going on now or what might happen any time in our history or in the future.

We are always going to have a battle because of ego, greed and the like, BUT maybe, just maybe we can work away from such bad emotions and behavior and become a better species that is able to go to the stars and move forward.

I pray for the ENTIRE human race; we are BETTER than all of this.

Walter

 

[diyCTB]

Have you gone absolutely crazy?

Just because I proudly fly the Ukrainian flag that doesn't mean I'm a Ukrainian. And I'm not one, FYI.

Just because I find requests of Ukrainian government from my country ridiculous and some of their people audacious who organized demonstrations next to president's house (most of whom are new citizens here) undermining country's security does not imply that I am absolutely crazy "brainwashed hopelessly by the new fascist-Nazi genocidal dictator Poo-tin's propaganda machine".

I am not going to discuss what country has more skeletons to hide because the war will be hopefully over by the time. People can research and those who seek shall find.

I have shown my perspective of what I have observed locally. I condemn behavior of government who suck in other countries into their own conflict even if it means undermining their security while some of its people who act privileged and demanding causing internal unrest in other countries who accepted them and offered help. Ukraine condemned my country's right to self-defense at UN by the way last time it had conflict while my country condemned Russia for invasion instead of staying neutral knowing the risks and still goes far accepting refugees, offering help and sending delegation of medical personnel to a war zone. And yet this is still not enough.

Call me crazy if it makes you fell better.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

Just because I find requests of Ukrainian government from my country ridiculous

Since I don't know which country you're from - not sure what those are, but this is probably reasonable. Most of the requests to foreign countries have been ridiculous lately, but I hope you do understand that this is simply because they're cornered and at this stage anything goes.

and some of their people audacious who organized demonstrations next to president's house (most of whom are new citizens here) undermining country's security

Also perfectly reasonable.
However, I feel stupid AF continuing this argument, but I just want to point out that

I take no sides in their conflict between Russia but now that I see a true face of these rats and their entitled and audacious behavior in countries who accept them today as refugees I despise them and would side with Russia only if it had good intentions for their own people which they don't.

pretty much implies that by "these rats" you mean absolutely every person living anywhere on the Ukrainian territory. Since, as you say, you would support what Putin is doing as long as it wouldn't harm Russians, and what he is doing is targeting Ukrainian civilians indiscriminatory. Ballistic missiles that are so precise they only kill people who support Bandera or any other controversial ideas haven't been invented yet. If the majority of population was antisemitic and agressively anti-russian we wouldn't have a president that openly states he is Jewish, had a TV show in Russian language and was very obviously collaborating with Russian businesses (pretty publicly, he was in a romantic comedy filmed IN Russia just a few years ago). Zelensky is by no means a saint that was sent to save the world, but if he is secretly a Nazi than this secret is extremely well kept from the general population, which are the ones that are suffering right now.

Even if we talk about people that are protesting in your country, most of them are idiots that are either misimformed about what they are supporting with their protest, or have a severe case of moral myopia. They need to be educated on why they are wrong and publicly shamed for their behaviour, and particularly stubborn and shameless ones probably deserve a couple of whacks on the head with a rubber stick and a couple of nights in jail to think things over. However, wouldn't you agree that even they do not deserve to die under rubble or in a fire along with their loved ones?

 

[diyCTB]

@Nessie God how people love to interpret everything worse than implied and make it a great deal. Why from everything I mentioned so far you only pick things that give you more reasons to interpret what I said in a negative light, associating me with your enemy without understanding my perspective and my country's political standing? I said my country helped with all it can yet Ukraine's government who stood with UN and condemned my county's right to self-defense demands more, knowing it will undermine its security. It's been in the news and people who demonstrated are like talking to a wall.

Rats are people who survive even if it means at expense of other people and before you assume what something is implied you are supposed to confirm it's what I meant which people do in real life and not hurl stones at me but internet makes it easy. I mentioned audacious people who are in Ukrainian government and privileged demonstrators who held demonstration repeating same requests as Ukraine's government disregarding country's security. I mentioned people Ukrainian refugees who exhibit barbaric behavior towards countries who came to their help. And I mentioned the rest of refugees that ended up in a mess, lost everything and want to start a normal life who I don't condemn. Those are decent and appreciative people that deserve help but the other ones I condemned above undermine reputation of a whole.

What else do you want to hear? Will you be willing to hear or instead finding stuff to criticize me further and lumping me with Russia hating on Ukraine? Like I said I don't have dogs in this fight and I share my perspective. If you don't like it, ignore it because this discussion is moving in the wrong direction.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

If you don't like it, ignore it because this discussion is moving in the wrong direction.

Okay. This really is pointless. The only point I am trying to make is that supporting bombing cities is wrong for ANY reason. As for all other points made, I did hear you out and only comment I can make is

this is probably reasonable

Not much more to say about that. I am perfectly fine with other countries and people from those countries not wanting to be involved in this conflict. I am not making an argument that everyone must want to help. As for arguing against supporting Russia - whatever, I give up, be right if you want to.

 

[AnnyMyr]

Basically the Russians want a small piece of land back from Ukraine, and that small land from Ukraine is divided between people who suppott Putin and others who support their own land from Ukraine, all of this because of a small piece of land. The Eastern Europeans countries fought so hard for the independence from the USSR. And now Putin wants it back. Like a spoiled little kid. Someone correct me if I'm not totally right.

You are wrong. I am from Donbass. 90 percent of the population is Russian and wants to join Russia. Ukraine bombed Donbass for 8 years. They killed a lot of civilians. They hate us because we are Russians. Ukraine was preparing to start a war on March 8, 2022, but Russia found out about it and attacked first.

 

[noaccount]

Rival empires trying to intimidate each other along with get control of shipping routes and oil (which is quickly running out and the use of which is quickly making the plant uninhabitable no matter who uses it)

 

[motel rooms]

I am from Donbass. 90 percent of the population is Russian and wants to join Russia.

 

[AnnyMyr]

my mother is Ukrainian, my father is Russian, am I an ethnic Russian? or am I an ethnic Ukrainian? These statistics are false. We are one people. We are distinguished only by who we think we are and whose side we are on. I'm telling you - 90 percent of the population of Donbass want to join Russia. You can come and see for yourself.

 

[Painless_end]

You are wrong. I am from Donbass. 90 percent of the population is Russian and wants to join Russia. Ukraine bombed Donbass for 8 years. They killed a lot of civilians. They hate us because we are Russians. Ukraine was preparing to start a war on March 8, 2022, but Russia found out about it and attacked first.

I have been hearing of a lot of civilians in Ukraine killed by Russian soldiers

 

[Weebster]

Land expansion.

 

[motel rooms]

We are one people. We are distinguished only by who we think we are

Of course. Since when does it matter who people think they are?! Ukrainians & Belarusians (& their respective languages) don't exist, they're nothing but delusional Russians who are just imagining they're Ukrainians & Belarusians. I'm not really gay, I'm actually a delusional heterosexual who's been having consensual sex with other males for more than 20 years. I wonder if that "fact" would stop Putin's thugs from beating me up if I had sex with another man in Russia.

 

[whywere]

Of course. Since when does it matter who people think they are?! Ukrainians & Belarusians (& their respective languages) don't exist, they're nothing but delusional Russians who are just imagining they're Ukrainians & Belarusians. I'm not really gay, I'm actually a delusional heterosexual who's been having consensual sex with other males for more than 20 years. I wonder if that "fact" would stop Putin's thugs from beating me up if I had sex with another man in Russia.

100% agree with you. You are a really smart person. Ukrainians ARE Ukrainians NOT Russians, simple and direct. I know a guy who married a gal from Kiev and her dad is a retired Soviet army person NOT a Russian army person, he retired before 1991 and he is 100% Ukrainian and gets a Soviet pension and he considers himself and his family a Ukrainian NOT a Russian citizen. even thou he gets a pension from the now Russian Gov't.

Walter

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Putin also wants to secure the offshore resources off the southern coast of Ukraine. He knows Ukraine doesn't yet have the capabilities to harvest them, but would with Nato help. That would make Europe far less dependent on Russian energy. After his relative success in Georgia and Crimea, I can understand why he feels emboldened.

 

[motel rooms]

Putin also wants to secure the offshore resources off the southern coast of Ukraine.

Ukraine has only one coast. It's redundant to call it southern!!!

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Ukraine has only one coast. It's redundant to call it southern!!!

Says the guy with "gay" in his tag line. AND I'm giving you an informative emoji, because I hate that one.

 

[motel rooms]

AND I'm giving you an informative emoji, because I hate that one.

You belligerent bitch! Everyone knows that "i" stands for "ironic/insult"!

 

[AnnyMyr]

Of course. Since when does it matter who people think they are?! Ukrainians & Belarusians (& their respective languages) don't exist, they're nothing but delusional Russians who are just imagining they're Ukrainians & Belarusians. I'm not really gay, I'm actually a delusional heterosexual who's been having consensual sex with other males for more than 20 years. I wonder if that "fact" would stop Putin's thugs from beating me up if I had sex with another man in Russia.

you can sleep with anyone you want in Russia, . We have enough people with non-traditional orientation. This is not a reason for joy, but these people are not beaten. We have a lot of gay people in politics, in art. We have banned gay parades, we have no propaganda of homosexuality, because homosexuality is not the norm for humanity. Of course, this is prohibited in the Caucasus. Homosexuals are killed in Chechnya, but this is the mentality of the Caucasian peoples, there are very strict rules.

 

[motel rooms]

In Russia, you can sleep with anyone you want. We have enough people with non-traditional orientation. This is not a reason for joy, but these people are not touched. We have banned gay parades, we have no propaganda of homosexuality, because homosexuality is not the norm for humanity.

I know exactly how the Russian LGBTQ population is treated. Fuck you & your "norm for humanity".

We have a lot of gay people in politics

That's just cynical.

 

[AnnyMyr]

I know exactly how the Russian LGBTQ population is treated. Fuck you & your "norm for humanity".



That's just cynical.

I sympathize with you and the hardships you have endured. I am so sorry. And I am very sorry that the whole world turns a blind eye to the suffering of my people - the people of Donbass.

 

[motel rooms]

I sympathize with you and the hardships you have endured. I am so sorry. And I am very sorry that the whole world turns a blind eye to the suffering of my people - the people of Donbass.

Thank you. I'm sorry that you've lost your relatives & that you're suicidal, I really am. I'm also horrified that the Russian Army has destroyed Mariupol, a large city in Donbas, & killed 21,000 Ukrainian civilians who lived in it... Like I said, it angers me when Russians claim that Ukrainians aren't a nation & that every Ukrainian who refuses to accept that "fact" is brainwashed by Nazis.

 

[Quinlor]

Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Donbass spoke: I want it too! And Russia said: I can't annex you but I support you with weapons. After 8 years of separatist war, Russia finally decided to save Donbass and as revenge decided to kill the Ukrainian Nazis who tormented the Russian population of Donbass during all these years. End of story.

 

[houseofleaves]

Putin lived in the USSR and loved it. USSR ended. Putin became the president and decided to restore USSR in its former glory. To do it, he had (has) to do many things, including (but not limited to) conquering territories that belonged to USSR. For some weird reason he decided to start with conquering Ukraine. First he took Crimea, just to see what happens. Almost nothing happened, he got a slap on the wrist and that was it. Now he strengthened his army and tried [tries] to take all of Ukraine.

We have banned gay parades, we have no propaganda of homosexuality, because homosexuality is not the norm for humanity.

 

[motel rooms]

Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Donbass spoke: I want it too!

No, the entire Donbas most certainly did not do that because most people who live in it are not ethnic Russians. It's clear that you don't understand that Donbas is not the same thing as the two self-proclaimed Russian republics in the eastern part of Donbas. Many ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language, but they identify as ethnic Ukrainians, not as ethnic Russians. Putin doesn't get to call them Russians if they say they are Ukrainians. Get it? Are the Irish, the Welsh & the Scottish actually English because most of them speak only English? No, & no sane English person would claim otherwise.