Sodium azide megathread

[Arak]

Although I have read a lot about sodium azide, it has been a while.
If I recall correctly two types of situations have been described, one a quick drop in blood pressure followed by a quick loss of consciousness.
The other reaction ´ominous´ (Nitschke) later and more brutal.

It´s a lot of material and I will read later, but does anyone know how fast it will kill (minutes/time) ? Presumably this is dose dependent.

 

[quantumdynamics]

The majority of this thread dealt with obtaining the substance. I would like to address this method's side-effects.

In one of the posts linked in the opening post of this thread, a broad review of case studies and experiments were referenced (I accessed it using https://sci-hub.tw). Over there are mentioned side effects such as nausea and diarrhea.
Also, it asserted that delayed (i.e, 1 hour or more after ingestion) hypotension is linked with death. So (AFAIU) you're expected to suffer through all these side effects for at least an hour. This contradicts the PPeh and its claim of "rapid death". This just makes me angry.
An important quote from that paper:

The time between exposure
and detection of hypotension can predict outcome. Fatal doses occur
with exposures of¸700 mg (10 mg/kg). Nonlethal doses ranged
from 0.3 to 150 mg (0.004 to 2 mg/kg). Onset of hypotension within
minutes or in less than an hour is indicative of a pharmacological response
and a benign course. Hypotension with late onset (>1 hour)
constitutes an ominous sign for death. All individuals with hypotension
for more than an hour died. Additional health effects included
mild complaints of nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headache, dizziness,
temporary loss of vision, palpitation, dyspnea, or temporary
loss of consciousness or mental status decrease. More severe symptoms
and signs included marked decreased mental status, seizure,
coma, arrhythmia, tachypnea, pulmonary edema, metabolic acidosis,
and cardiorespiratory arrest.

Could any members of the EXIT forums confront Dr. Nitschke with those concerns and post back? Would be much appreciated.

 

[Arak]

@quantumdynamics ,

Thank you for that. I briefly looked at an article, likely you're referring to 'Human Health Effects of Sodium Azide Exposure: A Literature Review and Analysis'.
All high dose suicides (10gr>) seem to have a lethal outcome.

There is one thing I find confusing in particular. A quote 'Onset of hypotension within minutes or in less than an hour is indicative of a pharmacological response and a benign course. Hypotension with late onset (>1 hour) constitutes an ominous sign for death.' There is more of that further in the article. To me, it looks like it is stated that 1) a quick effect of hypotension is not lethal and 2) a slow onset will kill you.

Previously, I had interpreted that as 1) a quick onset of hypotension leading to quick loss of consciousness and death and 2) a slow onset leading to a slower and more painful death.

A longer quote ' Rapid onset of hypotension occurs within minutes (usually up to 5 minutes) and may be accompanied or followed up with headache and associated symptoms such as dizziness, weakness, blurred vision, palpitation, tachycardia, shortness of breath, and sudden collapse (faint) that results in full recovery. These symptoms and signs are consistent with sudden lowering of blood pressure. In contrast, late development of hypotension (>1 hour), usually preceded or accompanied central nervous system (CNS) toxicity (seizure, decreased mental status, and/or coma), cardiac toxicity (tachycardia, arrthymia, bradycardia, or a systole), tachypnea, and metabolic acidosis. Late onset of hypotension constitutes an ominous sign of death. The difference in the onset of hypotension might be related to the dosage and route of exposure.'

I have ordered this stuff ....

I'm just not sure what to think of that. 'indicative of a pharmacological response and a benign course' Maybe I'm not reading that right. It doesn't seem to make sense that a quick onset of hypotension would not lead to death. Anyone ? I second @quantumdynamics suggestion. The article is somewhat confusing.

 

[Arak]

So I managed to get this substance, even though it's almost unavailable in the EU.

It's more brutal, no less lethal but also slower than cyanide. I'm not exactly relishing the thought, but with proper preparation/antiemetics it's 100 % lethal. Or at least very close to 100 %.
I checked Nitschke's PPEH October edition. The ratings seem wrong. It doesn't seem peaceful in any way, it's easy to prepare. Speed ? For speed, he rates it as better than SN. I doubt that.

Anyway, at the risk of being repetitive I repeat the question in #71 'Could any members of the EXIT forums confront Dr. Nitschke with those concerns and post back? Would be much appreciated.'

 

[Arak]

After reading a bit more.

Article as mentioned above.

Snippet '
Rapid onset of hypotension occurs within minutes (usually up to 5 minutes) and may be accompanied or followed up with headache and associated symptoms such as dizziness, weakness, blurred vision, palpitation, tachycardia, shortness of breath, and
sudden collapse (faint) that results in full recovery. These symptoms and signs are consistent with sudden lowering of blood
pressure. In contrast, late development of hypotension (>1 hour), usually preceded or accompanied central nervous system (CNS)
toxicity (seizure, decreased mental status, and/or coma), cardiac toxicity (tachycardia, arrthymia, bradycardia, or a systole),
tachypnea, and metabolic acidosis. Late onset of hypotension constitutes an ominous sign of death. The difference in the onset
of hypotension might be related to the dosage and route of exposure. Cases exposed to doses of 700 mg or above and those
with oral or direct contact exposures (45% body burn) developed late onset of hypotension.'

I get the impression that lethal doses can last hours or even days till actual death. Likely, extremely brutal. How could this possibly be peaceful ? Compared to this , cyanide is bliss.

It's a biocide. It kills living organisms.
Done 'properly', it works. But you do not want to spend your final hours this way ...

Feedback ?

 

[Arak]

Per @Sayo 's post somewhere, look up sodium azide at toxnet:

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search2/f?./temp/~X9DLUH:1

' Case 2.23-year-old male ingested 10 g of sodium azide 1.5 hours prior to admission to hospital. At the beginning, the patient's condition was good, but it changed to critical state within the first hours of hospitalization. He developed a deep coma, respiratory and circulatory insufficiency, metabolic acidosis, cardiac dysrrhythmias and anuria. Cardiac activity monitoring showed alternating tachycardia (140 beats per minute) and bradycardia (48 beats per minute), numerous additional supraventricular and ventricular extrasystoles and sinus dysrrhythmia. Cardiac arrest (asystolia) occurred twice, the second incident with fatal outcome'

Toxnet does not give a clear picture about time to death.

 

[WayOut]

@Chinaski Haha, I said it confirmed to have barbiturates presence, because that is what the test kit I ordered can tell you.
Not all barbiturates are lethal. Not all of them are pentobarbital aka Nembutal.
Also, your automatic skepticism, cynicism and close-mindedness are baseless. Why on earth would I lie?

Really? You said something very different here, about the N you sourced from 'Patrick':

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...onfirmed-to-have-barbiturates-presence.10785/

Oh ffs, quantum as well? How many alts does this fucker have?

Can hardly wait until "311" confirms his powder contains s. pentobarbital. He'll post positive results any time now. I'll believe him.

It's raining N.

 

[WayOut]

What would be better, that I wouldn't share my information?!

Yes.

The Chem lab has two partners in the discord I'm in. They are both verified "chemists" who had to send samples of research chemicals to reviewers to gain that status. I asked one lady who said she didn't have pentobarbital, after asking her boss and showing me a list of what she had. Then I asked her partner who said they did and sent me a picture Of her powder. She offered me a free sample of 1 gram so I could test it. Then I asked her other partner why there was this discrepancy and she said they don't have it and her partner was wrong. I think it's the language barrier. I'm still searching for labs tho. Eventually I will find one I think. If you're already making sketchy designer drugs why not make pentobarbital? It's not a difficult drug to make.

Yeah. I believe this. Really, I do. It doesn't sound at all like a last ditch go at saving the narrative of a scam in the making.

 

[WayOut]

For people interested in the lethal salts, if you would like to know how PN "discovered" the new method, you may want to read this:

https://exitinternational.net/critique-of-the-new-dutch-euthanasia-powder/

It's worth reading carefully. It's short article that appeared in the Dutch press at the time, and PN re-published it through Exit - I guess because he got a mention. Fucked if I know why he's so proud of it.

Note the date of this publication, because it's the first time PH started heavily promoting his lethal salts "new entry" in the PPeH. I read the original entry, and PH claimed that method was peaceful. He claimed that he knew everything about the biophysical mechanism causing death.

Yet at the time PN agreed with Chabot that it was a "horrible death".

He forgot to mention this when he was flogging his handbook.

 

[WayOut]

They mostly develop cathinones and amphetamine derivatives but they listed illegal substances as well, so i inquired.

Dude, seriously? This is your evidence that they are legit?

 

[iHeartRockArt]

Closed thread temporarily for a clean up.

 

[Arak]

@WayOut ,

As I understand that 'coorporation' 's method was sodium azide. PN has been pimping sodium nitrite. Somehow that got messed up. Likely, that coorporation originally intended to use sodium nitrite.

People deserve to know what sodium azide does. It looks to me it's much more brutal than sodium nitrite. I think that even Chabot doesn't realize how brutal sodium azide really is, per that article.

 

[Arak]

Okay, something about what 'Exit' seems to know but that is not in the PPEH nor has Philip stated a similar thing:

https://www.worldrtd.net/sites/default/files/newsfiles/EXIT INT newsletter april 2018.pdf

'Sodium azide is lethal but it is not particularly peaceful.
As with cyanide, one must be prepared to swap
peacefulness with speed, and deal with a number of
other special characteristics of this difficult substance.
Azide is undoubtedly fast-acting and there is no antidote,
but it is no peaceful pill.'

'not particularly peaceful' is an understatement. I get the feeling that not everyone in 'Exit' has the same perspective.

My own personal perspective, based on my own interpretation of research is that a dose of 10-20 gr taken correctly will mean certain death, and that you can be expected to be tortured to death during that time.

 

[quantumdynamics]

But how much is fast really? The papers we discussed suggest over an hour of torture before death! This is unthinkable!

Edit: Here's a bit from the pphb, referring to cyanide as a peaceful method. On the other hand, in the link for the newsletter you linked, it says cyanide is not peaceful, and also it is rated low on peacefulness

 

[Arak]

@quantumdynamics ,

I think you need to be a doctor to call cyanide 'peaceful'. For as long as I can remember, I have associated cyanide with a quick but painful death.

Sodium azide is not fast if I understand correctly. My impression is that you basically take 10-20 gr and you'll be tortured to death in the next couple of hours. A low(er) dose will bring the time till death within the range of a few hours till a few days.

But that's my impression, and I'd appreciate feedback !

 

[Void115]

Anyone can share a url of a reliable sa seller?

 

[Arak]

@Void115 ,

I think it matters a great deal where you live. I don't mean to pry. I mean, Europe versus USA ? It used to be on amazon for the USA.
Europe is much harder.

Please think carefully if you want this, I wouldn't trust the PPEH. According to my understanding it's a very brutal method. Then again, it can always be worse.

 

[Void115]

@Void115 ,

I think it matters a great deal where you live. I don't mean to pry. I mean, Europe versus USA ? It used to be on amazon for the USA.
Europe is much harder.

Please think carefully if you want this, I wouldn't trust the PPEH. According to my understanding it's a very brutal method. Then again, it can always be worse.

Europe

 

[spanishguy22]

[Sodium azide poisoning--a rare reason of hospitalization in toxicological units--case report] - PubMed

Sodium azide poisonings are a rare reason for hospitalization in toxicological units. They are observed as rarely as once within a number of years per hospital. Consequently, an algorithm for the optimum procedure of treating such intoxications does not exist and, as a result, there is a need to...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This woman took close to 1g Azide and survived. She was treated 2h later. She also ingested tablets instead of powder which probably was crucial. But still, it's kinda worrying that she wasn't that affected and could go home in 8 days.

 

[DarkStar1]

Okay, something about what 'Exit' seems to know but that is not in the PPEH nor has Philip stated a similar thing:

https://www.worldrtd.net/sites/default/files/newsfiles/EXIT INT newsletter april 2018.pdf

'Sodium azide is lethal but it is not particularly peaceful.
As with cyanide, one must be prepared to swap
peacefulness with speed, and deal with a number of
other special characteristics of this difficult substance.
Azide is undoubtedly fast-acting and there is no antidote,
but it is no peaceful pill.'

'not particularly peaceful' is an understatement. I get the feeling that not everyone in 'Exit' has the same perspective.

My own personal perspective, based on my own interpretation of research is that a dose of 10-20 gr taken correctly will mean certain death, and that you can be expected to be tortured to death during that time.

does anyone have details on the characteristics/experience of an azide death?

 

[throwaway777]

i read this thread ..but tbh it doesnt seem sure that sa is really that fast ... i mean i would drink it and wouldnt mind the pain (ofc i dont want to be tortured to death .. i still dont know if the pain will be so horrible to make me scream help ... i hope not ), but i want to be sure to be dead in a few hours as i will have only one night to kms ... it s kinda uncertain ..what do u all think?
idk im not sure .. sn or sa ?

 

[Psilo]

i read this thread ..but tbh it doesnt seem sure that sa is really that fast ... i mean i would drink it and wouldnt mind the pain (ofc i dont want to be tortured to death .. i still dont know if the pain will be so horrible to make me scream help ... i hope not ), but i want to be sure to be dead in a few hours as i will have only one night to kms ... it s kinda uncertain ..what do u all think?
idk im not sure .. sn or sa ?

SA has always been advertised as very effective, but also very brutal. I personally stick with SN, it seems much safer first to handle and to take.
But honestly what do I know, I've never been that far yet.

 

[Bentham]

Some case reports

1. Analytical Findings in a Suicide Involving Sodium Azide
(1996) click "download full text"

2. Application of High-Performance Liquid Chromatography to a Fatality Involving Azide
(1995) click "download full text"

3. Fatal Self-Administration of Sodium Azide (1975) full text unavailable
A 19-year old woman ingested an unknown amount of sodium azide (NaN3). The earliest symptoms were nausea and loss of vision. Within a few hours her clinical features were dominated by central nervous system signs, acute pulmonary edema, lactic acidosis, and hypothermia. The patient died within 12 hours, hypotension and shock occurring as preterminal events. This was the first recorded case in which antidotal methemoglobin production was attempted. Sodium nitrite administration resulted in methemoglobinemia but did not appreciably alter the clinical course and may not be of major benefit. Gross examination post-mortem showed marked pulmonary edema, visceral hemorrhage and congestion, and slight cerebral edema. Microscopically, the lungs showed alveolar and interstitial edema and a polymorphonuclear infiltrate. There were petechial hemorrhages and severe nonspecific changes in the brain.
12:30 pm ingestion
02:00 pm loss of vision and nausea, then unconscious, moved to ICU
06:30 pm comatose
11:30 pm death

4. Suicidal sodium azide ingestion (1986) full text unavailable
Sodium azide (NaN3) is a highly reactive, toxic, widely used chemical. Although industrial exposure is common, fatal ingestion is rare. We describe the case of a 30-year-old man who ingested 15 to 20 g of sodium azide. He became comatose within two hours and eventually expired from a combination of acidosis, respiratory depression, and ventricular fibrillation. In sufficient doses, sodium azide is rapidly fatal and there is no effective treatment.
4 hours: ventricular tachycardia then changed to bradycardia
5 hours: death

5. Sodium azide poisoning in five laboratory technicians
(1982)

6. Two cases of sodium azide poisoning by accidental ingestion of Isoton
(1975)

7. A case of fatal sodium azide ingestion (1986) full text unavailable
A 20 yo male in Poland, death occurred 40 minutes after ingestion of unknown amount of SA. SA concentration levels; 86.7mg/100g in gastric wall, 42.mg/100g in small intestine, no detection in liver.

----
The above are found through the citations in Sodium azide: a review of biological effects and case reports (full text in Japanese here). As to the Italic, I translated the related part of the Japanese original (and those are not abstracts of the cited documents).


8. Suicidal sodium azide intoxication: An analytical challenge based on a rare case (2012)

 

[spanishguy22]

Guys would Tagamet work to induce death faster? Like with SN?

 

[DarkStar1]

Peacefulness and Reliability are (to me at least) the most important features of a substance/method. Assuming you can't get N but you can get SA and SN, the questions come down to how unpleasant/brutal and quick are SA and how effective/reliable and fast are SN. For SN, a 6/10 for reliability is concerning as 40% of attempts will fail (I'm assuming that the 6/10 is given for cases where anti-emetics and antacids are taken and the person is not found/rescued). I hope I'm wrong with these assumptions as I would strongly prefer to use SN (don't want to have to go through any significant pain associated with SA) but am not confident in its reliability and don't want to fail and risk any permanent damages (brain damage or other) from oxygen deprivation to brain, heart, etc. if one is not rescued before damages.

 

[Zeus]

Peacefulness and Reliability are (to me at least) the most important features of a substance/method. Assuming you can't get N but you can get SA and SN, the questions come down to how unpleasant/brutal and quick are SA and how effective/reliable and fast are SN. For SN, a 6/10 for reliability is concerning as 40% of attempts will fail (I'm assuming that the 6/10 is given for cases where anti-emetics and antacids are taken and the person is not found/rescued). I hope I'm wrong with these assumptions as I would strongly prefer to use SN (don't want to have to go through any significant pain associated with SA) but am not confident in its reliability and don't want to fail and risk any permanent damages (brain damage or other) from oxygen deprivation to brain, heart, etc. if one is not rescued before damages.

Where are people getting the idea that 6/10 on the reliability scale means that 60% of people survive?

 

[DarkStar1]

I meant 40% of attempts fail. This assumes that 60% of people succeed: those who take their anti-emetics, antacids, and 15mg (or more) of SN (I believe Nitschke increased the amount to 20mg -25mg in the recent livestream). I am not factoring in those that are found/rescued, I'm just interpreting the reliability score of 6/10 to mean that there is a 60% of success of SN being reliable. I certainly could be wrong on this.

 

[throwaway777]

does anyone know where @Arak bought his SA ? i guess he bought it from europe since he lives there ...i sent him a dm some time ago but he never responded to it ...

 

[tiredandhuddledmass]

Much harder to locate than I had expected. Easy off amazon in the USA, but this is not the USA ... I can't really find anything except for a rather unknown seller on ebay, nondescript item.

Since it's so brutal it's not exactly my favorite but I feel I need to make preparations. Lots of websites have restrictions.
httpx://www.thistlescientific.co.ukdoesn't mention any, but since they want your personal data (phone, name, address) I'm asking. I'm not aware of any formal legal restrictions in Europe, but I'm not quite sure. It's not unusual that suppliers like Sigma Aaldrich have all sorts of registration requirements.

Anny comments on availability ? I do not want to be scammed by an unknown seller on ebay offering a nondescript product.'

For anyone interested you can't buy it on thistlescientific. Initially your order will go through but a day or two later a customer service rep will email you saying they only sell it to registered laboratories and they'll refund your CC.

 

[DyslexicForeigner]

How many tablespoons is 3 grams of Sodium Azide?
And do I have to pour the SA first into plastic cup, then mix with distilled water or water first and then SA?