SN from IC discussion megathread

[Whale_bones]

I am incredibly troubled by LEO searching your home and stripping you of your rights.

My takeaway: lock your stuff down, have it well hidden, don't answer the door if the cops show up, dontnanswer questions about a package.

I'm not sure who specifically you're responding to, but since my comment was the last on this thread, I feel I should respond. I initially wasn't answering the door, since I have hearing problems that usually prevent me from hearing a knock on the door anyways . Then I received a phone call informing me that police would physically break down the door if I didn't open it. They started the interaction with a threat, yet when I knew that I had to open the door to prevent aggression from them, I still responded calmly, reasonably and civilly.

I hope your takeaways don't come from my posts, because the important message from mine and other people's experience is that it had *nothing* to do with what we did or didn't do, what we said or didn't say. The statutes in our countries/states *allowed* a police officer to have complete decision making power in an area they have no education or expertise in.

I'm not saying doctors always get it right (they don't), but at the bare minimum doctors have certain standard practices that they're supposed to follow, and they have governing bodies whose specific job is to hold them to that and make them face repercussions when they don't. With these vaguely written, sparsely regulated "mental health statutes", individual police officers are granted a huge amount of power, and with no higher body that oversees and limits how they use that power, the inevitable result is police officers who abuse that.

We know from decades of history that we can't just give law enforcement unregulated amounts of power and hope that they'll use it correctly; in fact, we have more than enough evidence that shows us exactly why that's a terrible idea. But this is the situation as it stands in many places. Changing it means petitioning politicians who have the ability to affect laws and statutes, and the people who are victims of this often don't have the physical and financial resources, health and time to take on that long, arduous battle.

 

[Yavannah]

Linomastro, thank you so much for sharing your story. I knew there were others like me who'd experienced the exact same thing, and throughout this whole time I've just wanted the community on SS to be aware of and recognize that. While I understand the mods' view of not wanting to panic people, it's also very necessary to acknowledge that this is reality, and it's something that is traumatic and damaging to people, through no fault of their own.

I was civil yet assertive, exactly like you were; I explained my reasoning very well, I even had phone numbers to call that would back up my words, etc. The fact of the matter is, it had nothing to do with what we said or didn't say. it was based on pure bad luck because of the police we were assigned, and their willingness to bend the vague mental health statutes to their personal motivations and bias.

I know it's perhaps more comforting to think that we as citizens have some control, and therefore some people will hold on to thinking "well, it must have been your fault in one way or another," but that's just not factual. I encourage anyone who's thinking that to look into this subject, read the statute for your state (or country, for those countries who make use of similar statutes), and learn some of the long history of how this has been misused and abused by law enforcement and other institutions of power.




As you say, the entire experience of having your rights violated, having your physical freedom and autonomy removed, and being dehumanized is often traumatizing and leaves side effects. It can take time to even start processing that, and it's only sensible that many people weren't inclined to post about that soon after it happened. And I very much understand people who aren't in a place to talk about it at all.

But I greatly appreciate you sharing your story, Linomastro, as just one person being able to say it has already been healing for me. It additionally helps validate that this happened to other members of this site (who have the right to tell or not tell their story, and the number of people who have done so is not a representation of the number of people it happened to). I hope you are doing okay today, and I wish you continued strength getting through the aftermath of this.

the same happened to me..
it was a traumatizing experience not only for me but also for my family.
it was a family members birthday which was ruined..
they started to search our apartment without a search warrant & threw everything out of our closets leaving a huge mess.
im scared now everytime the door rings or i see a police car
im blaming myself almost everyday for not being strong or convincing enough after reading that many had visits but still managed to keep their SN but as you said there was nothing i could have done differently - i was absolutely powerless!
thank you for sharing your stories it really helped me feel less alone!

 

[Whale_bones]

the same happened to me..
it was a traumatizing experience not only for me but also for my family.
it was a family members birthday which was ruined..
they started to search our apartment without a search warrant & threw everything out of our closets leaving a huge mess.
im scared now everytime the door rings or i see a police car
im blaming myself almost everyday for not being strong or convincing enough after reading that many had visits but still managed to keep their SN but as you said there was nothing i could have done differently - i was absolutely powerless!
thank you for sharing your stories it really helped me feel less alone!

Sending you strength Yavannah A big reason I posted soon after the event is I really thought there must be others reading these posts who went through the same thing, and I didn't want them to feel alone. I have the same reaction now to sirens, I have to listen to them to make sure they aren't coming closer to me and feel sick the whole time. It had nothing to do with what you did or didn't do. You deserve to focus on getting through this the best you can, without blaming yourself.

They didn't need a search warrant because search warrants only apply to criminal law. In the US, and many other places, people who are suspected of committing a crime are automatically given rights and protections. But when police act under these vague "mental health statutes", none of those rights and protections exist. It's truly astonishing. I think part of the reason these statutes can exist is because almost no one knows about them. I definitely didn't until this happened to me, and I had a reason to look them up and learn about them.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Sending you strength Yavannah A big reason I posted soon after the event is I really thought there must be others reading these posts who went through the same thing, and I didn't want them to feel alone. I have the same reaction now to sirens, I have to listen to them to make sure they aren't coming closer to me and feel sick the whole time. It had nothing to do with what you did or didn't do. You deserve to focus on getting through this the best you can, without blaming yourself.

They didn't need a search warrant because search warrants only apply to criminal law. In the US, and many other places, people who are suspected of committing a crime are automatically given rights and protections. But when police act under these vague "mental health statutes", none of those rights and protections exist. It's truly astonishing. I think part of the reason these statutes can exist is because almost no one knows about them. I definitely didn't until this happened to me, and I had a reason to look them up and learn about them.

It's a terrible experience. I have had it happen a few times which yes is not to my credit at all though in one instance I was completely blindsided. Police almost shot me in the latter instance and probably would have had I been of color. My hand accidentally went behind my back and let's just say that prompted a very swift reaction.

Reading about these welfare checks when they were occurring was very distressing because I knew how little it was actually about the "welfare" of the people being subjected to them and how incongruent that term was in with the so little care and consideration shown in practice for minimizing the amount of trauma inflicted and the disruption to people's lives.

 

[Ammended]

I'm not sure who specifically you're responding to, but since my comment was the last on this thread, I feel I should respond. I initially wasn't answering the door, since I have hearing problems that usually prevent me from hearing a knock on the door anyways . Then I received a phone call informing me that police would physically break down the door if I didn't open it. They started the interaction with a threat, yet when I knew that I had to open the door to prevent aggression from them, I still responded calmly, reasonably and civilly.

I hope your takeaways don't come from my posts, because the important message from mine and other people's experience is that it had *nothing* to do with what we did or didn't do, what we said or didn't say. The statutes in our countries/states *allowed* a police officer to have complete decision making power in an area they have no education or expertise in.

I'm not saying doctors always get it right (they don't), but at the bare minimum doctors have certain standard practices that they're supposed to follow, and they have governing bodies whose specific job is to hold them to that and make them face repercussions when they don't. With these vaguely written, sparsely regulated "mental health statutes", individual police officers are granted a huge amount of power, and with no higher body that oversees and limits how they use that power, the inevitable result is police officers who abuse that.

We know from decades of history that we can't just give law enforcement unregulated amounts of power and hope that they'll use it correctly; in fact, we have more than enough evidence that shows us exactly why that's a terrible idea. But this is the situation as it stands in many places. Changing it means petitioning politicians who have the ability to affect laws and statutes, and the people who are victims of this often don't have the physical and financial resources, health and time to take on that long, arduous battle.

Yes and no. I was responding to the post in general. I appreciate your words. I 100% agree that having vague laws that give LEO almost unlimited power to assault people or to invade their homes, is abhorrent.

What I have learned, from this thread and others like it, is that:

-it is better to say as little as possible

-to never consent to a search

-at the point of a WC you are powerless and no matter what you say or do, it won't change the outcome for you.

-CTB items need to be incredibly well hidden in the event of any search

I am deeply angered and troubled by the trauma that has been inflicted on those that have done nothing illegal and yet are treated worse than criminals who still retain rights.