SN from IC discussion megathread

[Whale_bones]

Wht d/ u thnk th/ polce r goin2 d/

Nne of th/ SaSu membrs hve commitd n.e crmes in ordrng SN

No1 in UK rportd n.e consequncs frm th/ welfre chck vists tht sggests violatns -- no1 rportd b-ing sectnd in u.k etc

Th/ u.k mentl hlth servces r xtremly stretchd in u.k s/ = tkes a lt of authrisatn 2 hve n.e1 4rcd in2 inpatnt bcse thre jst r nt enuf beds

UK polce r nt perfct & = hs bn establshd tht thre = systemc racsm & sexsm etc bt thre = nt mch tht thy cn rlly d/ 2 n.e 1 in ths instnce

Thy r detctve constbles tryn2 gt mre infrmatn on wht IC custmrs knw -- tht = it

Thre = nothng 2 arrst ppl fr

I don't need to think it, I experienced it. I specifically said I was talking about US laws, not UK laws, and that I'm not knowledgeable on UK laws. My comment applies to the US only. You mention crimes and being arrested; again, I'm specifically talking about mental health statutes that are used when *no* crime is being committed.

This is an example of the statute in Connecticut. There's several reasonable things listed, involving various professionals and assessments. Then there's one where a single police officer, with no consultation with a healthcare professional of any kind, can make the decision completely by themselves to force someone into physical custody. At that point they immediately remove all of the rights someone would normally have- rights that even criminals are guaranteed- and many other actions are left up to their discretion. For example, the statute I linked states that the person has to be taken to an emergency room, but there's nothing stated on how soon that has to be done, or in what manner it has to be done.

These laws are written vaguely enough that they give police officers incredibly wide berth to do things that would otherwise be considered completely unconstitutional. With no right to contact anyone or record the interaction, a person is literally physically unable to protect themselves.

Most people don't know, and I didn't know until recently, how unjust these statutes are and how they can be used even if they live in the US, because we hear so often about criminal laws when it comes to police interaction, and these specific statutes are never publicly talked about. It's so draining for me to talk about this though, I've explained it in previous posts so this will probably be the last I talk about it, and the blanket statements dismissing what I went through as if everyone was lucky enough to be assigned a good cop are unsettling. The information related to these statutes is available online for most states, for those who want to know.

 

[Dot]

I don't need to think it, I experienced it. I specifically said I was talking about US laws, not UK laws, and that I'm not knowledgeable on UK laws. My comment applies to the US only. You mention crimes and being arrested; again, I'm specifically talking about mental health statutes that are used when *no* crime is being committed.

This is an example of the statute in Connecticut. There's several reasonable things listed, involving various professionals and assessments. Then there's one where a single police officer, with no consultation with a healthcare professional of any kind, can make the decision completely by themselves to force someone into physical custody. At that point they immediately remove all of the rights someone would normally have- rights that even criminals are guaranteed- and many other actions are left up to their discretion. For example, the statute I linked states that the person has to be taken to an emergency room, but there's nothing stated on how soon that has to be done, or in what manner it has to be done.

These laws are written vaguely enough that they give police officers incredibly wide berth to do things that would otherwise be considered completely unconstitutional. With no right to contact anyone or record the interaction, a person is literally physically unable to protect themselves.

Most people don't know, and I didn't know until recently, how unjust these statutes are and how they can be used even if they live in the US, because we hear so often about criminal laws when it comes to police interaction, and these specific statutes are never publicly talked about. It's so draining for me to talk about this though, I've explained it in previous posts so this will probably be the last I talk about it, and the blanket statements dismissing what I went through as if everyone was lucky enough to be assigned a good cop are unsettling. The information related to these statutes is available online for most states, for those who want to know.

Ok -- cn apprci8 tht

Slf jst wn2 avd cre8tng xtra strss & panc --- currnt stuatn = tht u.k detctves r makng vists 2 u.k membrs

Tht = nt smethng 2 strss abt

If stuatn xtends 2 u.s.a thn th/ convrsatn cn mve 2 consqunces of tht bt atm thre = nothng 2 suggst tht = an issu

 

[Whale_bones]

Ok -- cn apprci8 tht

Slf jst wn2 avd cre8tng xtra strss & panc --- currnt stuatn = tht u.k detctves r makng vists 2 u.k membrs

Tht = nt smethng 2 strss abt

If stuatn xtends 2 u.s.a thn th/ convrsatn cn mve 2 consqunces of tht bt atm thre = nothng 2 suggst tht = an issu

Thanks for reading and understanding. I understand not wanting to create unnecessary stress/panic, and I think for all the people that have posted about having fine experiences with cops just talking to them, they truly have no need to worry about anything taking place other than talking (as they're likely to get law enforcement from the same station/area, if they have any more visits).

I think it's reasonable to consider the likelihood of second visits in other countries besides the U.K. though, as there's no reason that I know of why the U.K. would be the only one to do that, and I also know that some U.S. law enforcement is interested in getting statements and evidence to give to other agencies to aid in the prosecution of KL. So while those not in the U.K. shouldn't expect it to happen at this point, being prepared can be a very important thing for those of us who know our local LE is unreasonable and/or hostile, and we can have things like recording devices accessible and ready to use, along with up-to-date knowledge of our state laws/statutes.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

I don't have a subscription and can't find another source mentioning this yet, but.

Every UK police force to examine suicide deaths linked to poison chef

Kenneth Law’s sale of poison online to suicidal youngsters was exposed by The Times last month, leading to his prosecution in Canada

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[TessaMocha]

Looks like I ordered right before they started doing this? Lucky I didn't get a visit, megathread is a good idea, thanks!

 

[Againstthewind]

Good Morning/Afternoon wherever you are!

It has been some considerable time since I updated you in this case but it was stagnant for a while (bail hearing kept being moved repeatedly throughout May and June) some information is blocked by Peel for safety reasons (as you would expect)

Here is the summing up of stories over the past two months and movement in the case into brief points.

• In a video posted in June, Peel police provided an update on their investigation.

• Investigators were/are asking members of the community to be alert of any packaging or labels identifying sodium nitrite, including hoods and or masks that can be used to cause self harm.
• Police have released the names of a number of companies linked to the investigation, including Academic/ACademic, AmbuCA, ICemac, Escape Mode/escMode, and Imtime Cuisine.
• A total of 11 police services from across Ontario are now involved in the investigation.
• It's possible more charges could follow from additional police jurisdictions (depending on restrictions of countries) – a Dutch man by the name of "Alex S." was sentenced to three-and-a-half years in prison last week for similar charges in the Netherlands.
• News media is claiming that the prosecution of Kenneth Law is proving to be a flashpoint in two major online movements: the "pro-choice" suicide advocates, who run forums with detailed guides on how to take one's own life, and the parents of children who lost their lives in part due to information gleaned from those sites, often with the help of people selling suicide devices online.
• Families of sodium nitrite victims around the world are looking to Law's trial in the hopes it will mean justice for their own children. While others are believed to be selling the substance, the scope of Law's alleged operation has poised the verdict in his trial to be significant for similar cases internationally.
• A news company in Canada, interviews a few different parents whose children had purchased SN. "We are trying every day," said a father in Italy. "The pain is so strong. It's hard to forget about your son or daughter." The man, who asked not to be named, lost his son to sodium nitrite, and says an acquaintance lost their child to the same substance, allegedly purchased from Law, in May.
• "Law's case could be a legal precedent in the United States, and Europe," he said. "That could help us continue to battle against the pro-suicide sites, and the free sale of poison."
• A bereaved mother in the Netherlands shared similar hopes for Law's trial, saying "there are very bad things on the internet," and that the verdict in the legal proceedings against Law could lead to the erasure of pro-suicide forums and chat rooms.
• A mother in Illinois also lost her daughter to sodium nitrite late last year, and says she will be watching the trial with interest. "This is a serious battle," she said. "(Selling sodium nitrite to at-risk individuals) is one of the worst things you could do. This is disgusting, these sites where they tell people to take their own lives."
• Investigators reached out to a B.C. (British Columbia) mom in June – about two years after her son took his own life. The mother, Isabella, told a Toronto news group that the investigators called her last month looking to know more about her son Jaden's dealings with Kenneth Law. "Every day, a thousand times a day (I think of him)," E-mails between the son, Jaden, and Kenneth Law show the pair discussing the potential purchase of a breathing regulator. It's one that has the same name as another sold by the now-defunct website of one of Law's companies identified by police. After Jaden's death, Isabella said she looked on his phone and discovered he'd joined an online suicide forum. "They were giving him specific instructions. They were encouraging him and they were normalizing it," she said. She said the forum pointed to Kenneth Law as a place to purchase the products. She, like went to their local police, but said the experience left her feeling dismissed. "I went to them two and a half years ago with information about Kenneth Law and his website and they did nothing," she said.
• Many purchasers of SN in their 20s. The youngest known individual was a 17-year-old in Michigan. (according to investgators)

• Our favourite man Philip Nitschke the Australian advocate for assisted suicide, as well as a former physician. Dubbed by Newsweek "the Elon Musk of assisted suicide," he is also the founder of a pro-euthanasia group for seniors, as well as the author of the length guide we all know. It's a fundamental human right," he told an interviewer covering the case.
• Nitschke says he first published details about sodium nitrite as a means of suicide in 2018, when the substance was freely available on sites like Amazon. American lawsuits against the retail giant briefly resulted in the substance being taken off the site, but a U.S. judge dismissed those suits late last month, rejecting the claim that Amazon had acted negligently in offering sodium nitrite on their site (RAS wrote up about this last month) In the same interview he had with the same journalist;
• "In that context, [members of Nitschke's pro-euthanasia group] became aware of this new source, Kenneth Law," he alleged. "And many, many of our members bought from him."
• Nitschke added that many of his group's members do not necessarily intend to take their own lives immediately, but instead prefer to keep substances like sodium nitrite on hand "just in case."
• "Our members are watching with great apprehension," he said. "And our members are finding themselves the hapless subjects of wellness checks in the middle of the night by local police…which is very intimidating." (as have we all)
• While Nitschke advocates for seniors hoping to end their own lives, he says Law acted short-sightedly by allegedly selling sodium nitrite to younger individuals.
• "Kenneth was being a little unrestrictive," he said. "Elderly people have this idea that they should have a right to access the substances, but they're not terribly sympathetic to the idea of teenagers going out there and buying a substance."
• Several of Law's alleged customers were teenagers, and died after taking the sodium nitrite sent to them.
• Despite that misgiving, Nitschke concedes the "real help" Law has done for members of his group.
• "He's helped them achieve their goals. We're watching this trial with great interest."

• Of course the charges against Law have not yet been tested in court. His lawyer has not commented about the case.
• As of right now Law will next appear in court on Aug. 25 (if it doesn't get moved again)

NOTES:
In one of the stories I researched, there were quotes and conversations from various parents of deceased children, I did not deliberately include the words of two people we hear about quite constantly who have an obsessive vendetta against the website, because they tend to vomit out the same script time and time again, so including the blame pointers, was what I believed to be counterintuitive.

 

[secretsfromthecity]

I think it would be a good idea to have a megathread to discuss the current events around IC because it's hard to keep track with all the different threads and the information is cluttered all over the forum. If you had a visit regarding your SN, you can post this here too, that also helps the community to keep track of the situation and dynamic around these visits. You can of course still create your own threads if you think the information is significant and important enough to have its own thread, in that case you can of course link to the thread in here.

Thanks everyone.

sorry i'm new but what is IC?

 

[Dot]

sorry i'm new but what is IC?

SN sourc tht = nt actve n.e.mre

 

[alonely]

"there are very bad things on the internet,"

ohnooo, bad things on the internettt, whatever will we do

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

'Brilliant, amazing': Ontario mom remembers son who authorities say died from Kenneth Law's products

An Ontario mom is remembering her son who died by suicide using products police believe he ordered online from alleged suicide salesman Kenneth Law, as the number of deaths Law may be linked to climbed to at least 120.

www.cp24.com

 

[exitplease]

I'm really confused and overwhelmed guys, someone please guide me. Can any of these sites be safely used to order SN or are police checks guaranteed?

 

[NoHorizon]

I'm really confused and overwhelmed guys, someone please guide me. Can any of these sites be safely used to order SN or are police checks guaranteed?

While most of the police checks happened to people who ordered from Kenneth Law after the police obtained a list of his customers, some users have reported receiving welfare checks from the police after ordering from other websites.

To be on the safe side, I would say that if you order SN expect a welfare check.

 

[exitplease]

While most of the police checks happened to people who ordered from Kenneth Law after the police obtained a list of his customers, some users have reported receiving welfare checks from the police after ordering from other websites.

To be on the safe side, I would say that if you order SN expect a welfare check.

Thank you so much for your response. Are the welfare checks expected to happen before or after the product arrives (if it ever does)?

 

[Deleted member 65988]

'Brilliant, amazing': Ontario mom remembers son who authorities say died from Kenneth Law's products

An Ontario mom is remembering her son who died by suicide using products police believe he ordered online from alleged suicide salesman Kenneth Law, as the number of deaths Law may be linked to climbed to at least 120.

www.cp24.com

Could it be likely that the death toll could be higher and the deaths could not just be within the vicinity of America and Europe but elsewhere.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

Could it be likely that the death toll could be higher and the deaths could not just be within the vicinity of America and Europe but elsewhere.

He sent over 1,200 packages to at least 40 countries. The numbers will definitely grow.

There's investigations happening globally at the moment, INTERPOL is involved. I know there's been a confirmed death in New Zealand and more are being looked into there.

 

[Dot]

Could it be likely that the death toll could be higher and the deaths could not just be within the vicinity of America and Europe but elsewhere.

Depnds hw mny govrnmnts wn2 investg8

If ppl in diffrnt cntries all receved welfre chcks thn wld nt b suprsd if mre strt 2 shw up

 

[Deleted member 65988]

He sent over 1,200 packages to at least 40 countries. The numbers will definitely grow.

There's investigations happening globally at the moment, INTERPOL is involved. I know there's been a confirmed death in New Zealand and more are being looked into there.

I keep forgetting he sent many that to 40 countries which will definitely increase the number gradually if such deaths are being investigated by governments worldwide with INTERPOL. To think, all of this for an inorganic salt.

Depnds hw mny govrnmnts wn2 investg8

If ppl in diffrnt cntries all receved welfre chcks thn wld nt b suprsd if mre strt 2 shw up

That's a fair point I didn't consider at first Dot. It truly does depend on whether or not, government focus any amount of attention to this because some are impotent and won't care or others will care to some degree but won't pursue it seriously enough due to other issues.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

That's a fair point I didn't consider at first Dot. It truly does depend on whether or not, government focus any amount of attention to this because some are impotent and won't care or others will care to some degree but won't pursue it seriously enough due to other issues.

I'm sure any "Western" countries involved will investigate fully--North America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. Certain Asian countries seem likely to investigate if there are connections there--Japan comes to mind for sure. Perhaps India.

I doubt many African countries would make a fuss, or very small Asian or Oceania countries. News would be easier to blow over in smaller countries that the world doesn't focus on much.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

I'm sure any "Western" countries involved will investigate fully--North America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand. Certain Asian countries seem likely to investigate if there are connections there--Japan comes to mind for sure. Perhaps India.

I've always looked at it that way, the Western nations will look at this rather closely as they have already done so thus far. Maybe other countries will follow if investigations begin if any other cases pop up.

I doubt many African countries would make a fuss, or very small Asian or Oceania countries. News would be easier to blow over in smaller countries that the world doesn't focus on much.

Hence why I'm rather thankful that I am from an African country myself and have SN in my possession without being worried at all on police checks or whatever else issues because they just wont care at all. News would definitely blow over in smaller countries which is why I've been surprised KL hasn't been a big of a story over here at all, whatsoever. This is why local chemical suppliers sell SN without any reservation as to whether a private individual buys it or not.

 

[NoHorizon]

Thank you so much for your response. Are the welfare checks expected to happen before or after the product arrives (if it ever does)?

No problem. I would guess at after (but it is just that, a guess) as the authorities would need to obtain the information and then arrange a visit which would likely be flagged as low priority for the police. But I'm no expert, the only information I can be sure of is the welfare checks in the UK relating to Kenneth Law's sales.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

I've always looked at it that way, the Western nations will look at this rather closely as they have already done so thus far. Maybe other countries will follow if investigations begin if any other cases pop up.

As the UK is diving hard into this, I imagine any current Commonwealth countries and territories will investigate if there's cases there.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

As the UK is diving hard into this, I imagine any current Commonwealth countries and territories will investigate if there's cases there.

I suspected that, considering if the UK is going very hard after it then the commonwealth countries will follow as well. Luckily I'm not in any one of them.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

I suspected that, considering if the UK is going very hard after it then the commonwealth countries will follow as well. Luckily I'm not in any one of them.

I'm in Canada, but SN was never in my plans so I'm safe from this debacle.

I did check out IC once out of curiosity, but never bought anything, never contacted the site owner, etc. etc.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

I'm in Canada, but SN was never in my plans so I'm safe from this debacle.

I did check out IC once out of curiosity, but never bought anything, never contacted the site owner, etc. etc.

Yeah, I can understand why some people are put off by sn, maybe it's the vomiting and gathering all the meds and also doubting the efficacy of how it works and whether it's reliable more than times than not.

I bought mine from a local chemical supplier.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

Yeah, I can understand why some people are put off by sn, maybe it's the vomiting and gathering all the meds and also doubting the efficacy of how it works and whether it's reliable more than times than not.

I bought mine from a local chemical supplier.

It's the hassle/acquiring the meds that knocked it off the list for me.

It's really a shame that KL fucked up so badly and is going to make SN even harder for people to get. I know there's people here in Canada who've seen the news and want that shit to be tightly-regulated now.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

It's the hassle/acquiring the meds that knocked it off the list for me.

It's really a shame that KL fucked up so badly and is going to make SN even harder for people to get. I know there's people here in Canada who've seen the news and want that shit to be tightly-regulated now.

Yeap, no surprise there. If KL hadn't screwed up then it wouldn't have got to this point.

 

[Forever Sleep]

As the UK is diving hard into this, I imagine any current Commonwealth countries and territories will investigate if there's cases there.

I expect there will be more deaths connected to the product and KL. Still- I imagine the crucial element will be proving that KL sold the substance knowing what the person intended to use it for. I bought from IC. I received a police check and later, a detective got in touch. So yes- they are trying to build a larger case against him. But it's like I told the detective- I made no mention of suicide when I bought it. As far as he knew, I was purchasing it in good faith to cure meat. As I said to her- in terms of my case- it would be like trying to sue a hardware store for selling someone some rope. I think it will come down to how open (and honestly- naive) he was about corresponding with people on how to use it to CTB.

Of course- the next more worrying step is they could start looking in to how people know about it and how to take it. Obviously, I didn't want to tell the detective about this place but I imagine they already know. I wonder if they have the resources and incentive to go that far. I wonder what they would define as assisting a suicide. That's one reason I try to avoid method talk now. Another being that I don't know enough to give advice.

 

[NearlyIrrelevantCake]

I expect there will be more deaths connected to the product and KL. Still- I imagine the crucial element will be proving that KL sold the substance knowing what the person intended to use it for. I bought from IC. I received a police check and later, a detective got in touch. So yes- they are trying to build a larger case against him. But it's like I told the detective- I made no mention of suicide when I bought it. As far as he knew, I was purchasing it in good faith to cure meat. As I said to her- in terms of my case- it would be like trying to sue a hardware store for selling someone some rope. I think it will come down to how open (and honestly- naive) he was about corresponding with people on how to use it to CTB.

Of course- the next more worrying step is they could start looking in to how people know about it and how to take it. Obviously, I didn't want to tell the detective about this place but I imagine they already know. I wonder if they have the resources and incentive to go that far. I wonder what they would define as assisting a suicide. That's one reason I try to avoid method talk now. Another being that I don't know enough to give advice.

They definitely know about SS. I've seen it mentioned in several KL articles [always some phrasing like "a suicide site we won't name"]. Saw one where the news organization mentioned the site to police and mental health people who were "shocked" that it exists.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

They definitely know about SS. I've seen it mentioned in several KL articles [always some phrasing like "a suicide site we won't name"]. Saw one where the news organization mentioned the site to police and mental health people who were "shocked" that it exists.

Those people can suck it. Their industry is responsible for failing a lot of people here. This place fills a hole they're scrap at filling.

 

[xxfailurexx]

Just found out about this thread reading replies to a separate thread.

Below is a link to xxfailurexx's experience with actual US FBI agents (when asked, agents presented US FBI badge).

Kenneth Law Update

The police department that arrested the IC owner Kenneth Law and 10 others has made a Public Safety Announcement today warning the public of the province to be on the lookout for SN packages and items that appear to be eebd hoods (Nitrogen method). I would assume that other law enforcement...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Also, highly recommend to anyone using the SS site: https://www.privacyguides.org/en/