Discussion My view on the root of depression

[Reallyreallyreally]

I want to know if you agree or disagree with me and why. I truly apologize if anyone feels patronized or invalidated by this. If you find yourself really upset let me know and I'll delete the post. If you don't want to say so below, PM is ok. Now on to the post:

People say depression is genetic, a chemical imbalance in a faulty brain. I don't think this is necessarily true. If a depressed person is raising a child, they're going to pass on their attitudes, ways of responding and relating to people and situations, manner in which emotions are expressed and received, and nutritional habits, all of which have a direct effect on mental health. I'm sure genes can make a person more susceptible but I truly don't think that most cases of depression are like other mental disorders, like bipolar or schizophrenia. If this were the case therapy wouldn't be necessary much of the time and certainly meds would be sufficient on their own, and there wouldn't be so many cases of meds facilitating therapy so well that they can both be discontinued in cases where adequate mental health care can be accessed. Even the aforementioned mental illnesses often don't surface if the individual isn't served an extra large helping of chronic stress. I know there are exceptions but if we all had truly validating, supportive environments both inside and outside the home from the start that fostered confidence and self esteem, how many of us would be here? Quite a few less I think.

That said, I do believe a brain can be trained to become depressed, hence the increased effectiveness of therapy when used in conjunction with meds. But I also believe brains can be trained back in the other direction if *all* the right factors are present. Obviously that doesn't happen for many people. We're all here so clearly we all needed more than what is organically present in our lives IRL.

This belief is why I bother, why I stay at a job I'm poorly suited for, spending my resources on therapy rather than hitting the road with a camper and a nest egg.

EDIT: Thinking about it from the other side, maybe it is genetic and is no different from bipolar or schizophrenia in how they can lie dormant if they're never triggered to emerge. But it seems like nobody would be able to discontinue meds if that were true. Perhaps both are true and they exist side by side.

 

[BlueWidow]

I agree with what you're saying. I'm sure it's very true that people are trained to view the world a specific way by what they see their parents or other caregivers or authority figures around them are doing, how they're interacting with each other, and how they react in various situations.
For example, my father hated his job and hated his life, and he passed those qualities on to me (ie that having a job and a life is nothing but a horrible burden that you have to suffer through). This attitude was then reinforced over and over in me by one person after another that I loved suffering and dying while I had to sit around and watch it. I also had to watch my father slowly kill himself with alcohol and cigarettes over a period of 18 years. While I would like to think it would be possible to retrain my brain to think a different way, I think at some point you just reach a level where it's not possible. Perhaps if you get the right treatment at the right time and you have the right kind of support, it might be possible to change the way you think or to rewire your brain in some way. I think, however, trying to do that while still in the middle of all of the things that caused your trauma and negative thought patterns and attitudes to begin with, makes it much more difficult, if not a futile effort to try to rewire your brain. I tried over and over to get help as a teenager, but nothing I did ever worked because I was still stuck with the family that I have and in the middle of all of their dysfunction. By the time I got out of it, it was just too late. I think by the time I was in my 20s, I was already so well trained in how to sabotage myself that no amount of effort that I put forward to try to get out of the cycle I was in worked. I was constantly sabotaging my own progress to the point where I finally just decided it was no use anymore and I gave up. At some point you just get so tired of fighting against the tide that you don't have the strength to swim anymore.
I admire anyone who has the strength and fortitude to overcome their issues, particularly if their family is still trying to pull them back into all the dysfunction and trauma.

I would also add that if anyone is to get real help with depression and trauma, they need more than just being given the same drugs over and over that don't work and being told the same platitudes and positive affirmations that are currently used in treatment. It doesn't matter how many times I take a medication, if it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for me— no matter how much the doctor and the therapist may want it to work. But instead of admitting that, they always turn it around and blame it on me and say that I'm just not trying hard enough or I don't want to get well. And it doesn't matter how many times they tell me that "Time heals all wounds" or " Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". My experience tells me that neither of those things are true and I believe my experience more than I do some mindless drivel that some therapist is trying to push on me. But once again, if I don't buy into what they're saying, then it's turned around on me and I'm told that I'm not trying hard enough and I don't really want to get better.
I don't know what the answer is, I just know the current techniques they use to try to treat people don't work. They may work for people who don't have really serious issues, but if you have serious trauma and really serious issues, the meds and therapy that they push don't work. The treatment protocols need some serious radical reforms, though I couldn't tell you what those reforms should be. I guess for one thing it would be nice if they would actually listen to people who are depressed and suicidal instead of telling them how it's only temporary and dismissing their emotions like they aren't important, or shoving pills in their face like that's the answer to everything when it clearly isn't.
It would also be nice if a person could go to a doctor and tell them they were having suicidal thoughts without the massive overreactions that you see today. I would even go so far as to say that if someone purposely set out to do absolutely everything wrong to help a depressed or suicidal person, they couldn't have done better than designing the current model of treatment that is used in most places around the world ( ie extreme over reactions and forcing the person into the psych ward against their will, assuming complete control over a people's life who already feels like they have no control over anything and that's probably a major reason why they are depressed and want to end their life, and pushing their pro-life agenda on a suicidal person). All that does is teach the suicidal or depressed person to keep their issues bottled up and not tell anyone because they're just going to get their freedom taken away, but they won't get any real help.
The current model is designed to assume that what the person is going through is a temporary crisis, when in the case of many people, it is not just a temporary crisis.

 

[Carina]

Well, one thing from my family that I remember that they'd deny if I asked her now... 4 generations of women, all were depressed, and I think 3/4 or all were suicidal (me being the last). Three generations do have a file at the same psych place in my town though for seeking help (granted I have the biggest file there).

It may come to a nature/nurture thing really. But, as the brain operates on electrical impulses and chemicals (basically)--so mental disorders does become a 'chemical' thing. Even if there could be a physical wiring issue as well that might be able to be trained to functioned differently, making medication a requirement to overcome the physical issues potentially, and even adding behavioral based methods.

One thing I've noticed, and have even had psychiatrists tell me, drugs for disorders are more of a 'try until it works' where the person with the issue knows when it's right more than the doctor. Which is in a sense highly screwed up since you have to go to the doctor to get meds, wait for med changes, but you're the one that is the only one who knows if it's the right dosage/etc as no test/etc really works to tell if it's right.

Actually it's why good psych wards do a complete blood workup to see if there's something wrong that could be causing a psych-based issue before thinking you have a psych issue.

And sometimes, it may even be possible that if someone's support system is really is good, they might not need meds (doesn't apply to many things, but some at least). Just knowing someone is there, and is willing to listen, and the other knowing that no matter what they say, the other won't judge them could be enough that the stress and other things could alter the brains chemical imbalance just enough to stop a looping/spiral. Not saying meds might not still be useful, but just decent non-judgmental support from everyone could help others--without having to rely on therapists.

There are literally too many factors to take into account, and it's definitely unethical to test things on people really.

 

[Reallyreallyreally]

I agree with what you're saying. I'm sure it's very true that people are trained to view the world a specific way by what they see their parents or other caregivers or authority figures around them are doing, how they're interacting with each other, and how they react in various situations.
For example, my father hated his job and hated his life, and he passed those qualities on to me (ie that having a job and a life is nothing but a horrible burden that you have to suffer through). This attitude was then reinforced over and over in me by one person after another that I loved suffering and dying while I had to sit around and watch it. I also had to watch my father slowly kill himself with alcohol and cigarettes over a period of 18 years. While I would like to think it would be possible to retrain my brain to think a different way, I think at some point you just reach a level where it's not possible. Perhaps if you get the right treatment at the right time and you have the right kind of support, it might be possible to change the way you think or to rewire your brain in some way. I think, however, trying to do that while still in the middle of all of the things that caused your trauma and negative thought patterns and attitudes to begin with, makes it much more difficult, if not a futile effort to try to rewire your brain. I tried over and over to get help as a teenager, but nothing I did ever worked because I was still stuck with the family that I have and in the middle of all of their dysfunction. By the time I got out of it, it was just too late. I think by the time I was in my 20s, I was already so well trained in how to sabotage myself that no amount of effort that I put forward to try to get out of the cycle I was in worked. I was constantly sabotaging my own progress to the point where I finally just decided it was no use anymore and I gave up. At some point you just get so tired of fighting against the tide that you don't have the strength to swim anymore.
I admire anyone who has the strength and fortitude to overcome their issues, particularly if their family is still trying to pull them back into all the dysfunction and trauma.

I would also add that if anyone is to get real help with depression and trauma, they need more than just being given the same drugs over and over that don't work and being told the same platitudes and positive affirmations that are currently used in treatment. It doesn't matter how many times I take a medication, if it doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for me— no matter how much the doctor and the therapist may want it to work. But instead of admitting that, they always turn it around and blame it on me and say that I'm just not trying hard enough or I don't want to get well. And it doesn't matter how many times they tell me that "Time heals all wounds" or " Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". My experience tells me that neither of those things are true and I believe my experience more than I do some mindless drivel that some therapist is trying to push on me. But once again, if I don't buy into what they're saying, then it's turned around on me and I'm told that I'm not trying hard enough and I don't really want to get better.
I don't know what the answer is, I just know the current techniques they use to try to treat people don't work. They may work for people who don't have really serious issues, but if you have serious trauma and really serious issues, the meds and therapy that they push don't work. The treatment protocols need some serious radical reforms, though I couldn't tell you what those reforms should be. I guess for one thing it would be nice if they would actually listen to people who are depressed and suicidal instead of telling them how it's only temporary and dismissing their emotions like they aren't important, or shoving pills in their face like that's the answer to everything when it clearly isn't.
It would also be nice if a person could go to a doctor and tell them they were having suicidal thoughts without the massive overreactions that you see today. I would even go so far as to say that if someone purposely set out to do absolutely everything wrong to help a depressed or suicidal person, they couldn't have done better than designing the current model of treatment that is used in most places around the world ( ie extreme over reactions and forcing the person into the psych ward against their will, assuming complete control over a people's life who already feels like they have no control over anything and that's probably a major reason why they are depressed and want to end their life, and pushing their pro-life agenda on a suicidal person). All that does is teach the suicidal or depressed person to keep their issues bottled up and not tell anyone because they're just going to get their freedom taken away, but they won't get any real help.
The current model is designed to assume that what the person is going through is a temporary crisis, when in the case of many people, it is not just a temporary crisis.

Yeah, unless you pay out of pocket or have some killer insurance the current approach to mental healthcare is really bad if it's more than a transitional problem in an otherwise healthy person, and the therapists available to lower income people don't usually have enough trauma experience to be effective, however good their intentions may be.

I went no contact with my family and landed in a really good job which is how I have room to get my head in order and am able to afford good care. Otherwise it would be eight sessions for the year and meds only. I don't think it's ever too late but the outside circumstance do have to be right and it can be really hard to get that set up. That said, if those things are addressed, neuroplasticity does allow the brain to be rewired. This lies at the crossroads of meds and good therapy.

Well, one thing from my family that I remember that they'd deny if I asked her now... 4 generations of women, all were depressed, and I think 3/4 or all were suicidal (me being the last). Three generations do have a file at the same psych place in my town though for seeking help (granted I have the biggest file there).

It may come to a nature/nurture thing really. But, as the brain operates on electrical impulses and chemicals (basically)--so mental disorders does become a 'chemical' thing. Even if there could be a physical wiring issue as well that might be able to be trained to functioned differently, making medication a requirement to overcome the physical issues potentially, and even adding behavioral based methods.

One thing I've noticed, and have even had psychiatrists tell me, drugs for disorders are more of a 'try until it works' where the person with the issue knows when it's right more than the doctor. Which is in a sense highly screwed up since you have to go to the doctor to get meds, wait for med changes, but you're the one that is the only one who knows if it's the right dosage/etc as no test/etc really works to tell if it's right.

Actually it's why good psych wards do a complete blood workup to see if there's something wrong that could be causing a psych-based issue before thinking you have a psych issue.

And sometimes, it may even be possible that if someone's support system is really is good, they might not need meds (doesn't apply to many things, but some at least). Just knowing someone is there, and is willing to listen, and the other knowing that no matter what they say, the other won't judge them could be enough that the stress and other things could alter the brains chemical imbalance just enough to stop a looping/spiral. Not saying meds might not still be useful, but just decent non-judgmental support from everyone could help others--without having to rely on therapists.

There are literally too many factors to take into account, and it's definitely unethical to test things on people really.

The time I went to the hospital they first thing they did after admitting me was take blood, and they had a big focus on nutrition. It was a really healthy hospital. Their main focus was on reining in psychosis, so they weren't able to do much for me, but they were really good from what I could see in other patients.

 

[gentleflower]

I have been at a clinic a few months ago now and they did focus a lot on the physical side as well. So, blood analysis and everything etc. I was given antidepressants to sleep (had huge issues with that), other antidepressants to give me more energy in the morning and meds to balance out the nutritional shortages they had discovered in my blood.
We were taught in a "class format" about the origins of depressions and what I remember is that they also said that scientists are sure that the genetics do play a role. But it is wrong to say that the genetics alone cause depression. Environmental factos play a huge role as well. They sad that genetics together with your physical health determines how "quickly" you can fall into an depression due to factors like stress etc.
Months after the clinic now, I have stopped taking most of the meds. I don't think that they really helped anything. I am still depressed and have recurring break downs. I still attend one-on-one therapy, but that also seems to do only so much.
I know from family history now that there have been cases of severe depression and suicidal identities in the generation of my grandparents. And I have witnessed my mother being depressed for several years, although she now claims it was never true and she refused to ever seek out a professional. Somehow she has made it on her own and is happier again now.
The therapists at the clinic all over and over emphasized that a depression is cureable. But I am beginning to be doubtful about that. I can sleep more or less well without the meds again and am "functional" again to work towards my graduation. I do wonder though if all of this is ever worth something

 

[Reallyreallyreally]

I have been at a clinic a few months ago now and they did focus a lot on the physical side as well. So, blood analysis and everything etc. I was given antidepressants to sleep (had huge issues with that), other antidepressants to give me more energy in the morning and meds to balance out the nutritional shortages they had discovered in my blood.
We were taught in a "class format" about the origins of depressions and what I remember is that they also said that scientists are sure that the genetics do play a role. But it is wrong to say that the genetics alone cause depression. Environmental factos play a huge role as well. They sad that genetics together with your physical health determines how "quickly" you can fall into an depression due to factors like stress etc.
Months after the clinic now, I have stopped taking most of the meds. I don't think that they really helped anything. I am still depressed and have recurring break downs. I still attend one-on-one therapy, but that also seems to do only so much.
I know from family history now that there have been cases of severe depression and suicidal identities in the generation of my grandparents. And I have witnessed my mother being depressed for several years, although she now claims it was never true and she refused to ever seek out a professional. Somehow she has made it on her own and is happier again now.
The therapists at the clinic all over and over emphasized that a depression is cureable. But I am beginning to be doubtful about that. I can sleep more or less well without the meds again and am "functional" again to work towards my graduation. I do wonder though if all of this is ever worth something

What they say about nutrition is true. I'm only really okay when I'm on the right diet but it's really hard to discipline myself to get back on it. It turns everything around way better than any meds I've ever tried, though I had been in an explosively angry state for several weeks before I short circuited it with a mood stabilizer so I guess it's possible my statement isn't quite true.

 

[gentleflower]

What they say about nutrition is true. I'm only really okay when I'm on the right diet but it's really hard to discipline myself to get back on it. It turns everything around way better than any meds I've ever tried, though I had been in an explosively angry state for several weeks before I short circuited it with a mood stabilizer so I guess it's possible my statement isn't quite true.

They did not find anything to be totally off with my diet. "Only" vitamin D deficiency, but that's common in winter when there is no sun anyway. I have taken supplements for it, until it reached a normal level again, but I dont feel any less tired or so unfortunately

 

[Reallyreallyreally]

They did not find anything to be totally off with my diet. "Only" vitamin D deficiency, but that's common in winter when there is no sun anyway. I have taken supplements for it, until it reached a normal level again, but I dont feel any less tired or so unfortunately

Magnesium helps me a lot, specifically Natural Calm. I think it helps the most because it's a drink. I've read it's the best absorbing one. It seems to be the one that makes the most difference. I'm