Help Lidocaine / Bisoprolol advice

[Time4Peace]

Hi everyone,

I have OTC access to Lidocaine / Bisoprolol. Have researched a little bit and it seems that Lidocaine at lethal doses, like 1g or even less gets you a cardiac arrest, while Bisoprolol has more side effects.

Can anyone share more details about these methods? I don't have the search function yet, but the suggested threads that popped up didn't give much info.

Here are some sources about the lethality of Lidocaine:
"The cause of death was determined to be ventricular arrhythmia precipitated by lidocaine overdosage. The administered dose was calculated to have been approximately 1500 mg."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12353561/

"The overdose of lidocaine produces death from ventricular fibrillation or cardiac arrest. In this case, according to macroscopic and microscopic findings, the cause of death was most likely cardiac and possibly related to ventricular fibrillation."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073806002775
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16787726/

"A 78-year-old woman committed double suicide with a bolus injection of 1 g of lidocaine hydrochloride.
These results indicated that the cardiac failure should have occurred immediately after the lidocaine injection."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12935451/

"Two cases of fatal lidocaine intoxication were presented to our center. The first case was a male with a history of multiple drug abuse who suffered from generalized seizures followed by cardiopulmonary arrest after oral ingestion of lidocaine spray. The second case was a female who suffered from generalized seizures followed by cardiopulmonary arrest"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266591072200038X

"Is injecting lidocaine intravenously a painless death?"
Answer by:
https://www.quora.com/profile/Douglas-Johnson-4
Douglas Johnson

MD in Surgery, Wayne State University School of Medicine (Graduated 1983)
Uncomfortable but probably painless. It would not cause any sensation except dizziness and then your heart goes into an arrhythmia and, with a large enough dose, it stops.
https://www.quora.com/Is-injecting-lidocaine-intravenously-a-painless-death

Additional answers from the same link above:
"Death depends on the dosage. Doctors use IV lidocaine to treat Arrhythmia. But the effects may show up earlier if we use it on the patient with normal sinus rhythm. If we achieve the toxic dose patient will have severe arrhythmia followed by cardiac arrest. So injecting lidocaine intravenously will surely cause death. But I don't know how painful it would be."

"IV Lidocaine will cause neurological effects well before it causes cardiovascular instability.
Unlike mucosal, intradermal or subcutaneous lidocaine, which all sting quite significantly, injecting lidocaine intravenously does not normally hurt.
Typical side effects of lidocaine toxicity are pins-and-needles, especially around the lips and tongue, agitation/confusion and tremors progressing to seizures and then loss of consciousness. Only at higher levels do you get arrhythmia and cardiovascular collapse."

"In The Netherlands we use 100mg/ml (10%) to make i.v. solutions with; infusion speed (after administering a bolus injection of 100 mg using the 2% solution) would usually be 2 mg/minute.

I remember a nurse who newly joined the coronary care unit who mistakenly administered this 10% solution, instead of the standard 2% solution which at that time look just alike, and injected this into a patient's vein, this was followed by a cardiac arrest, fortunately after external chest compressions the patient regained a normal heart rhythm and woke up. After this event we kept the 10% solution in a big ampoule, but the 2% solution only in a prefilled syringe, so no mistaking which was which.

I think unwittingly administering such a high concentration at a more than ten times higher rate then was intended caused the cardiac arrest, but didn't kill the patient."

P.S. I have access to OTC 100mg/ml (10%) IV solution, each ampule is 2ml and the pack has ten of them. I can pretty sure hit 1g or even more for instant lights out.

Would like to hear more of course from anyone who can add anything else that I might be missing, for example, bad side effects, tips how to do it, additional supplemental medicine, etc.

Thanks in advance, I very appreciate what you are doing here! <3

 

[Time4Peace]

Anyone? I want to order the medicine already and would like an advice if around 900-1200mg Bisoprolol, combined with Lidocaine IV of 1g-1.5g would be enough together? Lidocaine dosage is lethal as I noted in the first post. Would like to know if Bisoprolol dosage is ok or I can go with less or more? I want a quick knock out, instead of getting poisoned or even the drugs cancelling each other... That's why I want to hear from anyone who may know a thing or two about these two drugs.

Thanks in advance again!

Here's what I have found about the combo of the two drugs together:
Using lidocaine together with bisoprolol may increase the effects of lidocaine.
https://www.drugs.com/drug-interactions/bisoprolol-with-lidocaine-393-0-1464-0.html

Bisoprolol might affect how lidocaine is cleared from your body. This can cause lidocaine toxicity.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/bisoprolol-oral-tablet

The serum concentration of Lidocaine can be increased when it is combined with Bisoprolol.
https://go.drugbank.com/drugs/DB00281

Lidocaine is predicted to increase the risk of cardiovascular adverse effects when given with Bisoprolol.
https://bnf.nice.org.uk/interactions/bisoprolol/

 

[Time4Peace]

Got 4000mg Lidocaine IV solution and 600mg Bisoprolol. Unbelievable, but also found a locally sourced SN, from the food industry, the real deal basically, completely legal.

Which route would be the fastest and painless, the Lidocaine IV / Bisoprolol combo and hope for an immediate cardiac arrest, or the SN?

I feel extremely lucky to have both options at hand.

 

[TiredOfAllThis]

The IV stuff is more complex but should be sure thing
It's possible to get lidocaine hydrochloride here in 100g packs. If oral ingestion works, it should be a fine way to go

 

[Time4Peace]

The IV stuff is more complex but should be sure thing

Did I find the holy grail? Also, locally and legally from a vet shop. If my math is right, it's 50mg/ml x 50ml = 2500mg Propofol and 2500mg Lidocaine?
the Propofol will knock me out and the Lidocaine will give a proper cardiac arrest?
Can I inject it really fast to my arm with a syringe?
Appreciate your help!

EDIT: these are 10ml bottles so the dosage is 500mg for each component. Researching now how much would be a lethal dosage, maybe 1000mg each? Two bottles basically.

EDIT#2: Looks like rapid injection of 20ml under 10 seconds is possible!


Ric Dodd
Consultant Anaesthetist
"20 ml is a pretty standard volume for many drugs that need diluting, like antibiotics

i spend all day injecting propofol from a 20 ml syringe as fast as it'll go—-less than 10seconds usually.

we also use 30ml and 50ml suringes on occasion

we can inject 50 ml iv in inder 30 seconds easily"
Source: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-m...e-is-too-big-to-inject-anything-IV-Am-I-wrong
Found some info also here:

IV route for N, Thiopental and Propofol

Warning: Using google translate. Since my method is propofol, I read about it for a long time. I decided to do a detailed thread on CTB with propofol, thiopental and N. The method is similar for propofol, thiopental and N for the IV route. First of all, I warn you. This method is a really hard...

sanctioned-suicide.net

propofol and lidocaine

Hello everyone) I'm new here. I'm from Russia, so I'm sorry I don't know English well (What do you think about propofol? We sell propofol freely in veterinary stores. It's called Anestofol 5%, 10 ml bottle DESCRIPTION Composition and form of release 1 ml of ANESTOFOL contains propofol - 50 mg...

sanctioned-suicide.net

I May be getting close to my quick and painless CTB solution. I like to imagine it as pushing an instant log out button. No SI, anxiety, etc.

 

[Sunset Limited]

Sorry but lidocaine + bisoprolol bad idea. Amide local anesthetics such as lidocaine are strong negative inotropes. A sufficient dose stops the heart, but the problem is that it also crosses the blood brain barrier. CNS effects begin before cardiac effects. You will have convulsions. I have written many times before that veterinarians never use lidocaine alone in euthanasia. A strong sedative is injected first.

The only way to stop the heart before the onset of CNS effects is to inject the maximum concentration of lidocaine solution very quickly. Still no warranty. So don't do it. Selective beta blockers such as bisoprolol and metoprolol also cross the blood-brain barrier and depress the CNS.

If my goal was to stop the heart, I would use digoxin or a calcium channel blocker. Calcium channel blockers are as potent as beta blockers, but their CNS effects are limited. The most dangerous is digoxin. A fast bolus of high concentration would probably stop the heart instantly.

With 500 mg propofol + 500 mg lidocaine you are talking about Anestofol. This is an approved drug for animal euthanasia. 2 vials 20 cc = 1g propofol + 1g lidocaine. This is enough for a completely peaceful death. 20 cc of fluid can be pushed through a large vein in 10 seconds. If you are not a healthcare professional, the IV route is hard and things can go wrong.

 

[Time4Peace]

Sorry but lidocaine + bisoprolol bad idea. Amide local anesthetics such as lidocaine are strong negative inotropes. A sufficient dose stops the heart, but the problem is that it also crosses the blood brain barrier. CNS effects begin before cardiac effects. You will have convulsions. I have written many times before that veterinarians never use lidocaine alone in euthanasia. A strong sedative is injected first.

The only way to stop the heart before the onset of CNS effects is to inject the maximum concentration of lidocaine solution very quickly. Still no warranty. So don't do it. Selective beta blockers such as bisoprolol and metoprolol also cross the blood-brain barrier and depress the CNS.

If my goal was to stop the heart, I would use digoxin or a calcium channel blocker. Calcium channel blockers are as potent as beta blockers, but their CNS effects are limited. The most dangerous is digoxin. A fast bolus of high concentration would probably stop the heart instantly.

With 500 mg propofol + 500 mg lidocaine you are talking about Anestofol. This is an approved drug for animal euthanasia. 2 vials 20 cc = 1g propofol + 1g lidocaine. This is enough for a completely peaceful death. 20 cc of fluid can be pushed through a large vein in 10 seconds. If you are not a healthcare professional, the IV route is hard and things can go wrong.

Thank you for taking time and helping me.
Anestofol 20ml so far looks like the best way, although I'm worried that I will fail with the quick IV injection. That takes my relief away, sigh.

Maybe combine Anestofol and something else as a backup? like Bisoprolol 600mg?
Or just go with SN route? Can source it here, also legally. With SN I'm worried that I will have SI and painful and slow death, though.

What a horror it is that you don't choose to be born and you are forced into this god damn suffering. And if that's not enough, finding a way out is a complete misery.

 

[Time4Peace]

Good day. So it looks like IV drip can stop for no reason (read your posts).

I have 21G 20ml syringe, can I inject all of the 20ml fast enough without passing out before emptying the syringe?

Would be great when time comes and you just inject it in few sec and call it a day.
Basically something like this:
1. Tourniquet
2. Syringe insertion
3. Pull the plunger and see if dark blood comes in
4. Remove tourniquet or keep it on the arm?
5. Inject as fast as possible?

EDIT: Looks like using a Cannula / Catheter with a tube will make the injection easier.
Is 22G the best size? The most important obviously both speed of administration and that the vein will handle it. I plan to use my forearms vein which is big and accessible.

 

[Sunset Limited]

Sorry, the syringe needle is not wide enough. An 18 or 20 g cannula should be placed in a wide vein. Connecting an infusion set with an injection port to the cannula makes injection easier. If you have no IV experience, you need to do IV exercises for a long time.

 

[Time4Peace]

18G or 20G makes sense. Here's a comforting evidence that I have found today, regarding how long it takes to pass out. Looks like I will have enough time to inject the whole 20ml dosage.
"After injection, propofol possesses a rapid onset (unconsciousness occurs within 40 seconds from the beginning of injection which is the time for one arm-brain circulation)."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352007818300222


EDIT: Is it neccessary or a good idea to add a few ml of Lidocaine 10% to the 20ml Anestofol? The Anestofol is already 1g Propofol and 1g Lidocaine. Just in case to make it more potent?

 

[Justnotme]

18G or 20G makes sense. Here's a comforting evidence that I have found today, regarding how long it takes to pass out. Looks like I will have enough time to inject the whole 20ml dosage.
"After injection, propofol possesses a rapid onset (unconsciousness occurs within 40 seconds from the beginning of injection which is the time for one arm-brain circulation)."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352007818300222


EDIT: Is it neccessary or a good idea to add a few ml of Lidocaine 10% to the 20ml Anestofol? The Anestofol is already 1g Propofol and 1g Lidocaine. Just in case to make it more potent?

Does it make sense to check before this, for example, how 1ml of propofol will act on the body?

That is, to introduce not a lethal dose, but a small test dose

 

[Time4Peace]

Does it make sense to check before this, for example, how 1ml of propofol will act on the body?

That is, to introduce not a lethal dose, but a small test dose

Looks like it's really peaceful, like going immediately to sleep. Unlike poisoning yourself with SN for example.

I will practice with saline first to see if I can do it fast enough, eg, 10 sec +-

 

[Sunset Limited]

18G or 20G makes sense. Here's a comforting evidence that I have found today, regarding how long it takes to pass out. Looks like I will have enough time to inject the whole 20ml dosage.
"After injection, propofol possesses a rapid onset (unconsciousness occurs within 40 seconds from the beginning of injection which is the time for one arm-brain circulation)."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352007818300222


EDIT: Is it neccessary or a good idea to add a few ml of Lidocaine 10% to the 20ml Anestofol? The Anestofol is already 1g Propofol and 1g Lidocaine. Just in case to make it more potent?

10-15 seconds after injecting a high dose of propofol, you will be unconscious. 1 gram of propofol alone is fatal. Considering Anestofol's high propofol concentration, fast bolus + presence of lidocaine could most likely cause cardiovascular collapse or even cardiac arrest. Even without lethal hemodynamic effects, it will stop breathing long enough to cause asphyxia. So there's no valid reason to add anything to it.

 

[Time4Peace]

10-15 seconds after injecting a high dose of propofol, you will be unconscious. 1 gram of propofol alone is fatal. Considering Anestofol's high propofol concentration, fast bolus + presence of lidocaine could most likely cause cardiovascular collapse or even cardiac arrest. Even without lethal hemodynamic effects, it will stop breathing long enough to cause asphyxia. So there's no valid reason to add anything to it.

I was concerned that some liquid will remain in the bottles and the overall would be less than 20ml. Did you manage to inject 20ml in 10 sec? If yes, which gauge was the syringe 18, 20?

 

[Time4Peace]

Good day everyone. I'm planning to CTB by the end of the year, feeling almost there.

I decided not add SN to the Anestofol (1g propofol / 1g lidocaine) but instead came across Benzobarbital and ordered 35g of it (350 tablets x 100mg) + Risperidone 2mg x 30.

Is this an overkill or a good safety measure to incorporate with the Anestofol? This is just in case if I won't be able to inject the whole 20ml of Anestofol before passing out.

P.S. would it be enough to have just the 35g Benzobarbital (it's 70% Phenobarbital) + Risperidone, or should I go with the Anestofol injection combo? Obviously, it's easier to drink something rather than injecting.

Thanks in advance.

 

[willitpass]

Sorry, the syringe needle is not wide enough. An 18 or 20 g cannula should be placed in a wide vein. Connecting an infusion set with an injection port to the cannula makes injection easier. If you have no IV experience, you need to do IV exercises for a long time.

As someone who works in healthcare, inserting an IV into yourself is harder than it seems. Even having done it on other people, it is rather difficult to do on myself. It's very easy to miss or blow a vein, and maneuvering the tape and connecting things to it one handed is not an easy feat.

 

[Time4Peace]

Gonna use the big AC vain at my forearm, but I would prefer to drink smth obviously.

Just want it to work 1000000%. I have exp with IM injections, so not really afraid of some pain or damage.

 

[Time4Peace]

Read almost all the material related to Benzobarbital (Phenobarbital) on this website. It may take 24h or smth. Will combo it with the injection material which is instant death.

So hard to gtfo from here.

 

[Sunset Limited]

As someone who works in healthcare, inserting an IV into yourself is harder than it seems. Even having done it on other people, it is rather difficult to do on myself. It's very easy to miss or blow a vein, and maneuvering the tape and connecting things to it one handed is not an easy feat.

I've done this dozens of times. I placed a cannula on my left arm through the antecubital fossa on my first try. I only blow a vein twice. It also helped that I watched the procedure dozens of times while my mother was in the hospital. Watching videos on Youtube. Explanatory enough. I tested my gravity-fed injection system, which works with three syringes, 3 times. I also have experience with drip infusion setup. How difficult something is depends on how much you've experienced it. I am no better than a nurse at inserting a cannula for someone else, but I can say that I am good at inserting a cannula for myself.

 

[Time4Peace]

I'm talking about the cephalic vein which comes over bicep to the middle of the elbow area. Mine too is pretty big and standing out. Will be using 16G catheter and inject through the port btw. Can be done with one hand after the catheter is in place. The 16G flows 200-220ml a min, approx 6-7 sec for 20ml. Also, I understood it takes Propofol to reach arm to brain in 40 sec, but, even if I will pass out after 15 sec, I still can manage to inject the whole dosage in time. How long would it take for death to take place btw with 1g prop and 1g lidocaine? I may up the dosage to 1.5g each, injecting 30ml total.

 

[Sunset Limited]

I'm talking about the cephalic vein which comes over bicep to the middle of the elbow area. Mine too is pretty big and standing out. Will be using 16G catheter and inject through the port btw. Can be done with one hand after the catheter is in place. The 16G flows 200-220ml a min, approx 6-7 sec for 20ml. Also, I understood it takes Propofol to reach arm to brain in 40 sec, but, even if I will pass out after 15 sec, I still can manage to inject the whole dosage in time. How long would it take for death to take place btw with 1g prop and 1g lidocaine? I may up the dosage to 1.5g each, injecting 30ml total.
View attachment 137781

Yes, you can inject 20cc in 6-7 seconds, I injected 100cc in 40 seconds with 22g (it is blue cannula in my country). No need for 16g. 20g is enough, so you minimize the risk of blowing a vein. You have 10-15 seconds after the propofol starts flowing into the vein. It seems impossible that 1 gram of propofol + 1 gram of lidocaine with a fast bolus will not cause profound hypotension and cardiovascular collapse. Add in the rapid onset of apnea and a high plasma concentration lasting long enough to cause asphyxia, and it would be a miracle if anyone survived after this injection.

 

[Time4Peace]

Yes, you can inject 20cc in 6-7 seconds, I injected 100cc in 40 seconds with 22g (it is blue cannula in my country). No need for 16g. 20g is enough, so you minimize the risk of blowing a vein. You have 10-15 seconds after the propofol starts flowing into the vein. It seems impossible that 1 gram of propofol + 1 gram of lidocaine with a fast bolus will not cause profound hypotension and cardiovascular collapse. Add in the rapid onset of apnea and a high plasma concentration lasting long enough to cause asphyxia, and it would be a miracle if anyone survived after this injection.

Should I go with 18G or stick to 20G. I want all the dosage in. Will practice with saline first to see if I can do it quick enough. Thank you very much for the info, appreciate it!

 

[Time4Peace]

@Sunset Limited

Good day kind sir. I was planning to up the Anestofol dosage to 30ml from 20ml but it's out of stock atm. I have 100mg per 1ml Lidocaine, plenty of it. Can I add it to the syringe with the Anestofol? like 500mg extra Lidocaine in addition to the 1g that is in the Anestofol. Is there a problem to mix Lidocaine from other source?

EDIT: I noticed I have two kinds of syringes, a two piece and three piece which has a rubber inside the syringe. Which one of them will pump and flow the fastest? Through a catheter injection port ofc.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Sunset Limited]

Hey my friend. If it was standard propofol, I would recommend not adding anything to it. Because propofol is a hydrophobic phenol, it is insoluble in water and soluble in oil. We cannot inject oil directly into the blood, so it is emulsified. Nothing else should be mixed into the propofol emulsion because the emulsion may break.

I have little information about Anestofol. I wonder how they combine propofol and lidocaine. It could be an emulsion or just oil. Since it was a euthanasia, they may have ignored the consequences of injecting oil into the bloodstream. If it is just oil, then it is not a good idea to add lidocaine dissolved in water because they will not mix in the syringe due to their specific gravity. Still, if you hold the syringe upright with the plunger down, you inject the anestofol first and then the lidocaine. This is an acceptable scenario, but still hypothetical. If anestofol is an emulsion, you should not add anything to it.

In this case, the best way to use anestofol and additional lidocaine is to attach a double lumen to the catheter, inject first the anestofol and then the lidocaine with two syringes through two infusion lines with injection ports.

I couldn't understand two pieces and three pieces syringes. Photos can help. Also, if I see a photo of anestofol, maybe I can understand whether it is oil or emulsion.

 

[Time4Peace]

Ok, here are pics:

 

[Sunset Limited]

Ok, here are pics:
View attachment 139523

They're just syringes :) One has a rubber piston and the other has a plastic piston. It doesn't matter. It is not possible to tell whether Anestofol is an emulsion or not due to the color of the bottle.

 

[Time4Peace]

They're just syringes :) One has a rubber piston and the other has a plastic piston. It doesn't matter. It is not possible to tell whether Anestofol is an emulsion or not due to the color of the bottle.

I thought the one with rubber will move slower due to additional friction, lol.

I guess not to add anything then and count on the 20ml Anestofol?

 

[Sunset Limited]

The best solution seems to be double lumen.

 

[Time4Peace]

The best solution seems to be double lumen.

Isn't the result the same if I do this with your first suggestion:
"Still, if you hold the syringe upright with the plunger down, you inject the anestofol first and then the lidocaine. This is an acceptable scenario, but still hypothetical."

Would be much easier this way obviously.

 

[jepe24]

Sorry but lidocaine + bisoprolol bad idea. Amide local anesthetics such as lidocaine are strong negative inotropes. A sufficient dose stops the heart, but the problem is that it also crosses the blood brain barrier. CNS effects begin before cardiac effects. You will have convulsions. I have written many times before that veterinarians never use lidocaine alone in euthanasia. A strong sedative is injected first.

The only way to stop the heart before the onset of CNS effects is to inject the maximum concentration of lidocaine solution very quickly. Still no warranty. So don't do it. Selective beta blockers such as bisoprolol and metoprolol also cross the blood-brain barrier and depress the CNS.

If my goal was to stop the heart, I would use digoxin or a calcium channel blocker. Calcium channel blockers are as potent as beta blockers, but their CNS effects are limited. The most dangerous is digoxin. A fast bolus of high concentration would probably stop the heart instantly.

With 500 mg propofol + 500 mg lidocaine you are talking about Anestofol. This is an approved drug for animal euthanasia. 2 vials 20 cc = 1g propofol + 1g lidocaine. This is enough for a completely peaceful death. 20 cc of fluid can be pushed through a large vein in 10 seconds. If you are not a healthcare professional, the IV route is hard and things can go wrong.

I read this and struggling to cbt . Would amplodipine at over 1,000 mg with 300 mg of propranolol and some losartan be effective you seem to knwo

Sorry but lidocaine + bisoprolol bad idea. Amide local anesthetics such as lidocaine are strong negative inotropes. A sufficient dose stops the heart, but the problem is that it also crosses the blood brain barrier. CNS effects begin before cardiac effects. You will have convulsions. I have written many times before that veterinarians never use lidocaine alone in euthanasia. A strong sedative is injected first.

The only way to stop the heart before the onset of CNS effects is to inject the maximum concentration of lidocaine solution very quickly. Still no warranty. So don't do it. Selective beta blockers such as bisoprolol and metoprolol also cross the blood-brain barrier and depress the CNS.

If my goal was to stop the heart, I would use digoxin or a calcium channel blocker. Calcium channel blockers are as potent as beta blockers, but their CNS effects are limited. The most dangerous is digoxin. A fast bolus of high concentration would probably stop the heart instantly.

With 500 mg propofol + 500 mg lidocaine you are talking about Anestofol. This is an approved drug for animal euthanasia. 2 vials 20 cc = 1g propofol + 1g lidocaine. This is enough for a completely peaceful death. 20 cc of fluid can be pushed through a large vein in 10 seconds. If you are not a healthcare professional, the IV route is hard and things can go wrong.

would amplodipine over 1,000mg help in such a instance I just read this post and was curious for myself