Method Is N REALLY painless?

[Pau MP]

Yeah so I googled this and apparently it does happen. But why do they think the people feel this? Like we have a user that took 10ml of N and ended up in a several day coma where they were not aware of anything so surely drinking a whole bottle will knock you out so hard you wouldn't even know you were 'drowning'? I don't see the issue. I don't understand why they're saying the inmates suffered when surely they'd be out cold with 5g of N.

They found froth and foam in the lungs. And other fluids too. Froth is formed only if air is still passing through the lungs. Definitely those inmates were gasping for air...

 

[Red Scare]

They found froth and foam in the lungs. And other fluids too. Froth is formed only if air is still passing through the lungs. Definitely those inmates were gasping for air...

So do we know if that happens to people who ingest it, via drinking it?

 

[watchingthewheels]

Color me skeptical. A prison environment (full of "shenanigans", we'll say) is not the same as an assisted-suicide environment, and I'd bet there are other factors involved. (The article mentions several, like the secrecy around the executions, the source of the N, and even the administration method:

"In both Georgia and Texas, placing IVs in the arms of inmates who had been heavy drug users caused some difficulty. Atlanta Journal-Constitution reporter Rhonda Cook said in the case of one execution, the team 'couldn't get a vein', and what they had to do is what they call a 'cut down' where they inserted the IV at the base of his neck."

or this:


"And in 2015, Georgia had to cancel a scheduled execution because the pentobarbital was stored at too cold of a temperature. 'And what happened was the solids that are combined with the liquid to create pentobarbital separated. So there were clumps in the containers that had the pentobarbital,' Cook said."

If it were truly an issue, would the PPH still be promoting it as a "peaceful pill", and would people would not still be seeking it out as a holy grail?
I've seen the videos of people drinking it and falling to sleep in minutes, so my guess is "no".
As for whether it was N alone or as part of a cocktail: According to this article :

"When Donald Trump's Justice Department announced in 2019 it'd resume executions after a 17-year hiatus, it said it would use pentobarbital alone. Manufacturers were no longer willing to supply the combination of drugs used in three federal executions from 2001 to 2003, explaining they didn't want drugs meant to save lives to be used for killing."

Executioners sanitized accounts of deaths at Terre Haute's federal penitentiary

The sworn accounts raise questions about whether officials misled courts in order to ensure executions happened before Joe Biden's inauguration.

www.indystar.com

 

[Ta555]

They found froth and foam in the lungs. And other fluids too. Froth is formed only if air is still passing through the lungs. Definitely those inmates were gasping for air...

Oh my god. Ok. I don't even know how to explain this anymore.
Does breathing equal consciousness?? I was under anesthetic for a procedure and afterwards they told me my heart rate dropped and my breathing slowed a lot. Guess what. I didn't feel any of it BECAUSE I WAS UNCONSCIOUS!!
If you're unconscious, which is what N is supposed to do very quickly you're not going to feel anything even if you're still breathing. Someone could be strangling you or hang you upside down by your toes and you wouldn't know because your brain is switched off. So what does it matter if they were still breathing?

 

[Red Scare]

Oh my god. Ok. I don't even know how to explain this anymore.
Does breathing equal consciousness?? I was under anesthetic for a procedure and afterwards they told me my heart rate dropped and my breathing slowed a lot. Guess what. I didn't feel any of it BECAUSE I WAS UNCONSCIOUS!!
If you're unconscious, which is what N is supposed to do very quickly you're not going to feel anything even if you're still breathing. Someone could be strangling you or hang you upside down by your toes and you wouldn't know because your brain is switched off. So what does it matter if they were still breathing?

I'm with you, man. I was just wondering where the author of the above article gets off claiming that it is an agonizing slow death, where the person is aware they are drowning in their own lung fluid? It also doesn't say if the prisoner was successful in getting to choose a "less-painful" alternative means of execution, so I wonder what the court had to say about his complaint.

I read recently about the first ever lethal injection involving a drug other than pentobarbital, the prison went with fentanyl, because of the relative unavailability of N.

 

[Sunset Limited]

In fact, the 3 drug execution method were peaceful until the supply of thiopental stopped. I think in 2012 the production of thiopental stopped in America. Europe refused to send it for execution. If the prisoner is cannulated correctly (they used two IV accesses to make sure), 5 grams of thiopental is lethal regardless of the other two drugs. Until the body metabolizes that much thiopental, it inhibits respiration long enough. It also causes hypotension that would be dangerous without immediate action. So if the prisoner is cannulated correctly, with thiopental, he will be unconscious until death.

The problem in 3 drug execution started after the supply of thiopental ended. So they started using midazolam, which failed to produce as deep sedation as thiopental, propofol, etomidate. Presumably, in many executions, prisoners were conscious in their last moments. Maybe not completely.

IV pentobarbital as a single agent for execution is a good way to go. There is a user above who says they use 5 grams. This is much more than need. The anesthesia induction dose of pentobarbital is administered at no more than 50 milligrams per minute. More pentobarbital inhibits respiration. 5 grams is a hundred times this dose. I don't know how this dose is administered in executions. A quick bolus or a 10-15 minute infusion? It is best to keep this dose flowing for 15 minutes after a fast loading dose. Apnea starts quickly and the prisoner will probably die after 10 minutes.

Foam in the lungs is probably due to pulmonary edema due to decreased cardiac output. It is also possible in a heart attack. Shallow breathing and pulmonary edema. The probability of the prisoner being conscious in this situation is very low.

 

[lmon]

Well I hope it is peaceful because I'll be taking it. From all the videos I have seen it does look like the way all humans should have a chance to die. They just die in their sleep. I don't think I would be able to do more violent methods, so this is a blessing to me. The only thing that is a little concerning is the absolutely foul and strong taste. I mean the stuff they give out in euthanasia clinics isn't vet Nembutal that is supposed to be injected. That being said it is still the gold standard compared to many other methods.

can you please explain this, I'm guessing it's n. I want to bel 100 % confident in it but sometimes I read or see something questionable about it. I notice if you question n sometimes people get mad. But I really just want to be sure for myself so I ask questions

 

[PerpetualPain]

I'm pretty sure there was a Philip Nitschke podcast where he discussed this very subject.

 

[BrokenBliss]

can you please explain this, I'm guessing it's n. I want to bel 100 % confident in it but sometimes I read or see something questionable about it. I notice if you question n sometimes people get mad. But I really just want to be sure for myself so I ask questions

Do you have a question now, @lmon? Please don't be afraid to ask. I know I get passionate sometimes with my answers, but I'm never mad. We want you to feel safe here.

 

[lmon]

I'm pretty sure there was a Philip Nitschke podcast where he discussed this very subject.

what did he say?

 

[Red Scare]

I don't want to watch that cat video, my cat just passed away a month ago.

But what happens in the video? Did something go wrong(?), or did the cat just go to sleep(?), because now I have to wonder what the significance of posting it here is?

If nothing goes wrong, the cat merely falls asleep, then you can assume it probably won't be that different when you drink a massive dose of the stuff.

 

[lmon]

I don't want to watch that cat video, my cat just passed away a month ago.

But what happens in the video? Did something go wrong(?), or did the cat just go to sleep(?), because now I have to wonder what the significance of posting it here is?

If nothing goes wrong, the cat merely falls asleep, then you can assume it probably won't be that different when you drink a massive dose of the stuff.

he is breathing weird and the owner is questioning if the cat cant breathe. it kind of looks like it. it's not a normal one where the catjust falls asleep. this makes me wonder if he didnt get the sedative before that and if just n does that. or if it's just odds that you react like this. or if the breathing isnt even have anything from suffocation

I'm pretty sure there was a Philip Nitschke podcast where he discussed this very subject.

https://www.peacefulpillhandbook.com/podcasts/doxit-no-10-is-a-nembutal-death-cruel-unusual/ this one might be it

 

[Sunset Limited]

I watched a video about an explosion in Palestine. A girl's skull was open after the explosion. Her brain was completely gone and she was dead. Yet periodically she was breathing like that cat. I think it's a reflex and it's called "agonal breathing."

Are we sure this euthanasia was done with N? As far as I know, N is administered by IV route and the onset of action is very fast. The cat just wandered for a minute (perhaps more). I couldn't see a cannula inserted in one of his legs. If this euthanasia was done with N, it must have been administered intramuscularly.

 

[symphony]

Glad this thread is here. Followed. Chances are someday I'll read through this fully, but I was intending to make a similar thread myself at some point. I find there's no reason to believe 100% that N is as peaceful as claimed and some (read: some, not much) evidence to the contrary, which gives rise to doubt for me. It's cause for personal concern because I've started to seriously consider N as an option for me.

Edit: I want to note that I currently have no strong reason to believe that N is not a wonderful option or among the best out there. I do not mean to discourage anyone from taking N.

 

[Red Scare]

I find there's no reason to believe 100% that N is as peaceful as claimed and some (read: some, not much) evidence to the contrary, which gives rise to doubt for me. It's cause for personal concern because I've started to seriously consider N as an option for me.

What gave you this idea, and what evidence and reading have you done to support the notion? I'm curious myself because this is my chosen method to go

 

[symphony]

What gave you this idea, and what evidence and reading have you done to support the notion? I'm curious myself because this is my chosen method to go

I'm not well-positioned to respond to this (yet), I've just read a handful of different things that have not convinced me one way or another but have been enough to seed doubt. I haven't gathered evidence in one location or anything yet and can't speak authoritatively about it. But I'll look back on that eventually and share my concerns then.

 

[watchingthewheels]

Glad this thread is here. Followed. Chances are someday I'll read through this fully, but I was intending to make a similar thread myself at some point. I find there's no reason to believe 100% that N is as peaceful as claimed and some (read: some, not much) evidence to the contrary, which gives rise to doubt for me. It's cause for personal concern because I've started to seriously consider N as an option for me.

Oh, it's sheer misery, I tells ya! Misery!!!! Worse than a gun shot to the head! Worse than falling off a bridge into cold water! Worse than drowning! Worse than being decapitated! Worse than severing the tendons in your wrist to get to the sweet, sweet innards of your veins!
Worse than being- well, you get the point...

 

[symphony]

Oh, it's sheer misery, I tells ya! Misery!!!! Worse than a gun shot to the head! Worse than falling off a bridge into cold water! Worse than drowning! Worse than being decapitated! Worse than being- well, you get the point...

Well, yes. I know what I'm suggesting here is a controversial view when we're talking about the Gold Standard. I'm not necessarily saying any other method is better than N, just that maybe (maybe - even I am not sure here, just doubtful of the common narrative) it isn't as completely wonderful as claimed.

I'm not trying to fearmonger or anything. Just trying to understand what I would be getting myself into if I drank N.

I'm not well-positioned to respond to this (yet), I've just read a handful of different things that have not convinced me one way or another but have been enough to seed doubt. I haven't gathered evidence in one location or anything yet and can't speak authoritatively about it. But I'll look back on that eventually and share my concerns then.

To clarify on this - I am currently reading the (entire) PPeH. Once I finish that, I'll read more sourced on the effects of N online. I was planning to consolidate my thoughts into one thread (or post on this thread, perhaps) with citations after that.

 

[Red Scare]

If you just fall asleep, as in the case of most videos that have been released by some pro euthanasia groups, then that seems legit. The person just falls asleep and then is declared dead. There's no reason to think someone so deeply unconscious suffers. It's an anesthetic and someone could cut you wide open under the influence of it and you wouldn't even feel it.

 

[watchingthewheels]

Well, yes. I know what I'm suggesting here is a controversial view when we're talking about the Gold Standard. I'm not necessarily saying any other method is better than N, just that maybe (maybe - even I am not sure here, just doubtful of the common narrative) it isn't as completely wonderful as claimed.

I'm not trying to fearmonger or anything. Just trying to understand what I would be getting myself into if I drank N.

Instead of trying to confirm that it IS that peaceful, you're actively looking to undermine confidence (even if only your own) in the reportedly most peaceful method available. You'd probably do that with ANY reportedly peaceful method. That's your SI kicking in, and that's ok. But just remember, if you undermine your confidence in N, there's nowhere to go but down in peacefulness.

You can search all you want for counter-examples, but there's only one way to find out, ulitmately.
Anything else is just dithering.

 

[symphony]

Instead of trying to confirm that it IS that peaceful, you're actively looking to undermine confidence (even if only your own) in the reportedly most peaceful method available. You'd probably do that with ANY reportedly peaceful method. That's your SI kicking in, and that's ok. But just remember, if you undermine your confidence in N, there's nowhere to go but down in peacefulness.

You can search all you want for counter-examples, but there's only one way to find out, ulitmately.
Anything else is just dithering.

Well, maybe so. I won't deny that. It's likely true that there is no ideal way to die in practice and absolutely true that we can't know until we try it and succeed. But I'd rather at least try to know with as much certainty as I can in advance, ya know? And to do that, I need to look for evidence that contradicts my belief that it's likely very peaceful to see how strong of an argument there is to be made in that direction and see how much water it holds.

I don't know. I don't expect this view to be popular or well-received, but for my peace of mind it's a discussion I want to have, and I'm sure others (including OP) would agree.

 

[watchingthewheels]

Well, maybe so. I won't deny that. It's likely true that there is no ideal way to die in practice and absolutely true that we can't know until we try it and succeed. But I'd rather at least try to know with as much certainty as I can in advance, ya know? And to do that, I need to look for evidence that contradicts my belief that it's likely very peaceful to see how strong of an argument there is to be made in that direction and see how much water it holds.

I don't know. I don't expect this view to be popular or well-received, but for my peace of mind it's a discussion I want to have, and I'm sure others (including OP) would agree.

What more do you expect to find?
I understand "peace of mind", but do you think you're going to uncover something no one else has, at this point?
Seriously. If the evidence already out there isn't enough for, nothing will be.

 

[symphony]

What more do you expect to find?
Do you think you're going to uncover something no one else has, at this point?
Seriously. If the evidence already out there isn't enough for, nothing will be.

No. I don't. I'm no internet research sleuth of any kind. I just want to see the evidence and evaluate it for myself, even if 100,000 people have done so before me. I don't necessarily mean to say "the evidence out there isn't enough". I can't make that claim because I haven't seen all the evidence out there. As previously stated in this thread, I haven't even finished reading the PPeH.

I'm just trying to think critically here. I'm not trying to fearmonger or start any drama or anything like that. I don't mean to discourage people from taking N. I'm seriously considering doing that myself.

I want to clarify that at the point I am just speculating. I replied to this thread because I have interest in the topic. I don't know anything with certainty either way and I'm trying to figure that out by considering arguments both ways before I make any decisions.

 

[watchingthewheels]

No. I don't. I'm no internet research sleuth of any kind. I just want to see the evidence and evaluate it for myself, even if 100,000 people have done so before me. I don't necessarily mean to say "the evidence out there isn't enough". I can't make that claim because I haven't seen all the evidence out there. As previously stated in this thread, I haven't even finished reading the PPeH.

I'm just trying to think critically here. I'm not trying to fearmonger or start any drama or anything like that. I don't mean to discourage people from taking N. I'm seriously considering doing that myself.

So you have no reason to spread your doubt to others.
That said, I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.

 

[symphony]

So you have no reason to spread your doubt to others.
That said, I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.

Yes, I agree. I have no reason to spread doubt at this point and it was never my intent to do so. I do apologize if that was the effect my previous words have had. N does seem to be a very good option and all power to anyone who chooses to take it. I've edited my original response to this thread to try to reflect that.

 

[PerpetualPain]

he is breathing weird and the owner is questioning if the cat cant breathe. it kind of looks like it. it's not a normal one where the catjust falls asleep. this makes me wonder if he didnt get the sedative before that and if just n does that. or if it's just odds that you react like this. or if the breathing isnt even have anything from suffocation

https://www.peacefulpillhandbook.com/podcasts/doxit-no-10-is-a-nembutal-death-cruel-unusual/ this one might be it

Yes that's the one. Were you able to gather any insights from this?

I am paranoid enough about N working. I don't want to also question if I will suffer from it.

I think P.N. put those questions to rest but it has been a long time since I listened to that. I have very vague memories about what was said.

 

[LittleCloud]

So you have no reason to spread your doubt to others.
That said, I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.

I think people should be more accepting of different perspectives and not come for each other's throats. We are all here experimenting in an unknown territory. Noone can fully prove anything, so we shouldn't try to censor others.

 

[watchingthewheels]

I think people should be more accepting of different perspectives and not come for each other's throats. We are all here experimenting in an unknown territory. Noone can fully prove anything, so we shouldn't try to censor others.

I didn't "go for the throat". No one was "censored". (Even though you seem to be trying to censor me, there, telling me what I should and shouldn't accept? And telling me that I can't know anything? Ironically, you're trying to censor any judgement and critique..why aren't you accepting MY different perspective, huh? See how that works? And quite frankly, some of the "different perspectives on this forum have been downright disturbing, so as promoting a lack of morality, wanting to kill other people and wishing mass deaths upon society...but we must be "tolerant", after all, even of genocide, since "no one can know anything...really? REALLY ?
"No one can be certain of anything"...are you CERTAIN of that?)

I challenged Symphony's skepticism and self-admitted paranoia.

Symphony admirably rose to that challenge.

 

[Red Scare]

@symphony have you ever been under anesthesia? I really think it is no different. You fall asleep before you even realize it is happening. I've had multiple surgeries in my life. If you can't feel a scalpel slicing into you while under anesthesia then I have no doubt you'll be unable to feel anything else. They have to keep you on oxygen sometimes when using anesthesia, just because you could stop breathing on your own, you'd be completely unaware. There would be no coughing and sputtering, or choking, because you're quite literally out cold.

 

[symphony]

@symphony have you ever been under anesthesia? I really think it is no different. You fall asleep before you even realize it is happening. I've had multiple surgeries in my life. If you can't feel a scalpel slicing into you while under anesthesia then I have no doubt you'll be unable to feel anything else. They have to keep you on oxygen sometimes when using anesthesia, just because you could stop breathing on your own, you'd be completely unaware. There would be no coughing and sputtering, or choking, because you're quite literally out cold.

Yes, and that's a very good point. I would certainly hope it's similar.