Discussion How can you get a child?

[CarbonMonoxide]

I like how people seem to think that abortion is a good solution.

I've only seen this cavalier attitude towards abortion in liberal cultures. In most places in the world, abortion still carries the weight it deserves. After all it costs tens of thousands of lives every year. I do get that the next step from anti-natalism is glorification of abortion and sterilization. These are very heavy topics.

obviously started to seek attention/luls.

You stated it plainly. It's not bad to seek attention but on ss there are much better ways of doing so without acting like an edgelord.

 

[Life_and_Death]

@Aap @CarbonMonoxide I'm not exactly agreeing with the way you put it but yeah... I was a bit surprised to wake up and see more comments on it.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Humans are classified as mammals. Humans have the same features found in all members of this large group. Humans are also classified within: the subgroup of mammals called primates; and the subgroup of primates called apes and in particular the Great Apes. We are very close genetically to chimps.

People are the only mammals who are capable of creating symbolic systems of knowlege, culture. We are the only species aware of its own mortality, the only species with an understanding of history, capable of self reflection and control of our instincts. We are the only species capable of overcoming our instincts through reason and logic.

 

[Meditation guide]

I've only seen this cavalier attitude towards abortion in liberal cultures. In most places in the world, abortion still carries the weight it deserves. After all it costs tens of thousands of lives every year

You know, the woman's body belongs to her. She is the only one who should decide what to do with it. A pregnant woman does not belong to the state.

Abortions used to be illegal. The emergency rooms were always full of women bleeding to death from attempts at self administered abortions. Most of them died.

Women are more than baby factories. We are human beings who own our own bodies. Just as men own their own bodies. Stop regulating my uterus.

 

[kqlysrsly]

Being either sex sucks, but it is easier to be male.

Lol, you kidding? It's easier to be a girl for sure.

 

[Meditation guide]

Lol, you kidding? It's easier to be a girl for sure.

Being a girl is being a second class citizen in most countries. We can't go where we want when we want alone such as late night walks, walks in the woods, or even to a restaurant alone without being made to feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. Rapes are common. Bad treatment is common. Getting called vulgar names is common. God forbid a woman is single.

 

[Ghost2211]

Lol, you kidding? It's easier to be a girl for sure.

You should do more research into the medical differences of males and females, as well a sociology and history.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Lol, you kidding? It's easier to be a girl for sure.

Do share your enlightened wisdom. Please oh please.

 

[woxihuanni]

Do share your enlightened wisdom. Please oh please.

Hear hear. I am always eager for enlightened wisdom, too.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Hear hear. I am always eager for enlightened wisdom, too.

I'm also eager for this obnoxious thread to get locked, I do admit.

 

[bigdog]

I mean if you live in normal not dysfunctional family even if they are not rich you would be fine. But unfortunately it is not always the case. In my opinion many so called mental health problems come from toxic parents. It is very hard to recognise and nobody would basically intervene. Basically I came to conclusion that quality of your life is pure luck. You didn't choose your family, genetics etc you didn't choose quantity of your dopamine receptors or serotonin receptors
I think that if you have good health,
appearance, family, intellect, money, life good be pretty interesting experience

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

You know, the woman's body belongs to her. She is the only one who should decide what to do with it. A pregnant woman does not belong to the state.

Abortions used to be illegal. The emergency rooms were always full of women bleeding to death from attempts at self administered abortions. Most of them died.

Women are more than baby factories. We are human beings who own our own bodies. Just as men own their own bodies. Stop regulating my uterus.

Some women have multiple abortions throughout their life because they seem to prefer it as a birth control method, and some do them as casually as if they are going to the dentist. I think that @CarbonMonoxide just wanted to point out that this type of attitude being socially accepted is specific to liberal cultures.

I don't care about this issue - I would never ban abortion and I don't care what other women do with their bodies, but it is true that only in the Western world women get applauded for having abortions.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Some women have multiple abortions throughout their life because they seem to prefer it as a birth control method, and some do them as casually as if they are going to the dentist.

Have you personally known women like this?

I ask because I've heard it before, many times, in those exact words, and it resonates with me like those who claim that it's easy to get on disability and lazy people are abusing the system. It resonates as a cultural myth that creates an imaginary bad person and shames them, and motivates people to toe the social ethical line and not seek services that would serve them when they are in great need -- it's too easy to access, the bad person who dares to seek it is generally lazy and unethical.

it is true that only in the Western world women get applauded for having abortions.

And this as well I've heard before. Where is the applause? Where are the cheerleaders and the ticker tape parades? Where is the woman who has had an abortion standing proudly on a pedestal for all to admire? Where has it not been taken soberly and seriously to choose to end a pregnancy in the Western world any more than in "third world" countries? This sounds to me as vilifying and false as hating on feminists for wanting equal freedom, rights, and opportunities, instead turning them into man-hating monsters who dare to want to wear the pants.

Please know I'm not attacking you, but questioning what seem to me to stand out as myths that people accept as valid, factual, and morally "right."

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

Women are more than baby factories.

Sigh. Read my post carefully. I commented on the fact that people ignore the biological impact of abortion, making it seem like a quick fix. In film it's done in the morning and the girl is having drinks with friends in the afternoon. That doesn't happen in real life.

I did not comment on whether it's right or wrong. Abortion is not like taking paracetamol for a headache, it has potential for serious complications and psychological trauma. It's your body, I accept that but stop it with this narrative that abortion is easy. It's not.

some do them as casually as if they are going to the dentist.

It's become a sexual fetish now. I'm pro-choice but that doesn't mean that I have to be an anti-life asshole, projecting my problems to other people just because I think they're having it better.

 

[Meditation guide]

In film it's done in the morning and the girl is having drinks with friends in the afternoon. That doesn't happen in real life.

Yes it does. Not sure what you mean. It is a 45 minute procedure. There usually are no side effects. I brief nap and it's done.

I did not comment on whether it's right or wrong. Abortion is not like taking paracetamol for a headache, it has potential for serious complications and psychological trauma. It's your body, I accept that but stop it with this narrative that abortion is easy. It's not.

It's a simple operation. You can be asleep or awake, and you get up off the table, go and relax for an hour or so and then that's it. Sometimes there can be a little bleeding but usually not. Rarely you possibly could get an infection but that is rare. The only trauma is being pregnant when you don't want to be. Some get an abortion when they don't really want to but that is rare. It is a huge relief. I don't want to argue but I just want to get the real facts here.

All this is assuming it is within the first 3 months.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Have you personally known women like this?

I ask because I've heard it before, many times, in those exact words, and it resonates with me like those who claim that it's easy to get on disability and lazy people are abusing the system. It resonates as a cultural myth that creates an imaginary bad person and shames them, and motivates people to toe the social ethical line and not seek services that would serve them when they are in great need -- it's too easy to access, the bad person who dares to seek it is generally lazy and unethical.

And this as well I've heard before. Where is the applause? Where are the cheerleaders and the ticker tape parades? Where is the woman who has had an abortion standing proudly on a pedestal for all to admire? Where has it not been taken soberly and seriously to choose to end a pregnancy in the Western world any more than in "third world" countries? This sounds to me as vilifying and false as hating on feminists for wanting equal freedom, rights, and opportunities, instead turning them into man-hating monsters who dare to want to wear the pants.

Please know I'm not attacking you, but questioning what seem to me to stand out as myths that people accept as valid, factual, and morally "right."

Actually I have known women like this. One of them was my friend's mother who had three abortions before having him and even told him on some occasions that she should have aborted him too. I've also known some women who did not want to take a pill because they feared they would gain weight and reasoned that they'll just abort if they get pregnant (some of them did get pregnant and had abortions). I am pro-choice in all matters of life (I would not be on this site if I wasn't), but you cannot deny that in the Western world abortion is treated as something trivial. Just look at the media and women such as Lena Dunham who champion abortion, there is a whole subculture of radical feminists who fetishize abortion and are proud of their abortions. You won't find this type of attitude in any other culture.

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

Not sure what you mean.

I'm not picking a fight and I hope I don't come off as "mansplaining" and lose all credibility. My point is that even in a first world country safe abortions with minimal complications are only accessible to a small percentage of the population. It may be easy for you but it's not the state of the world.

I was born in a country where some girls still believe that drinking strong tea can stop unwanted pregnancies. Not joking. Please, expand your mind and realize that you're on a global forum populated by vulnerable people. Just because it's easy in your country doesn't mean that it's easy in all 195 sovereign states.

 

[Fedrea]

I've only seen this cavalier attitude towards abortion in liberal cultures. In most places in the world, abortion still carries the weight it deserves. After all it costs tens of thousands of lives every year. I do get that the next step from anti-natalism is glorification of abortion and sterilization. These are very heavy topics.

You stated it plainly. It's not bad to seek attention but on ss there are much better ways of doing so without acting like an edgelord.

I have always felt strongly I never wanted to abort but you cannot take the choice away from others

May I ask you something- have you ever used hormonal contraceptives, if female, or had sex with a woman using hormonal contraception as protection, if Male?

 

[Meditation guide]

My point is that even in a first world country safe abortions with minimal complications are only accessible to a small percentage of the population. It may be easy for you but it's not the state of the world.

That is not true at all. Abortion clinics are sterile operating rooms. The doctors do thousands per year.

They cost around $300 or $500 if you choose to be put to sleep. They are very minor easy procedures and the actual "operation" part takes ten minutes.

The cervix is numbed by injection. The cervix is then slightly dilated. There is a suction tube inserted in the cervix, it is turned on, and in ten minutes it's over with.

It only takes all of 45 minutes to prepare by putting the gown on and giving the anesthesia if that is done which usually is not.

I don't know about third world countries. I do know about the US state of abortions. In poor countries it might involve dilation and curettage. Even that is not a big deal. As long as it's sterile and done early it's not difficult.

 

[Fedrea]

So do I, especially how people see it's either abortion or giving birth, because pregnancies are bound to happen, like we are living in the 15th century and have never heard of contraceptives.

In the U.K. more than half of women getting abortion were using contraception

Kennisgeving voor omleiding

www.google.co.uk

People don't realise how often contraception fails

I'll ask you the question- have you ever had sex using hormonal contraception only as protection?

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

I have always felt strongly I never wanted to abort but you cannot take the choice away from others

May I ask you something- have you ever used hormonal contraceptives, if female, or had sex with a woman using hormonal contraception as protection, if Male?

My wife has an implant in her arm. It's supposed to be effective for 3 more years, after which we'll decide on whether to have a second child or not. Or should I say, she'll decide. I'm not a perfect guy. Maybe I went too far on this thread. Now point me to where I tried to take away the choice to abort from others.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

In the U.K. more than half of women getting abortion were using contraception

Kennisgeving voor omleiding

www.google.co.uk

People don't realise how often contraception fails

I'll ask you the question- have you ever had sex using hormonal contraception only as protection?

I did not know about this, that is interesting.

I've had sex using hormonal contraception only as protection.

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

They cost around $300 or $500 if you choose to be put to sleep.

Like I said, in your country. In my country 500 bucks can pay a year's rent for a one bedroom apartment. You missed my point. Was it deliberate?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Thanks for answering about if you've known anyone like you described. There's nothing to argue anything about it, as you stated you're pro-choice and don't take personal issue with it, so neither will I struggle with anything about it.

but you cannot deny that in the Western world abortion is treated as something trivial. Just look at the media and women such as Lena Dunham who champion abortion, there is a whole subculture of radical feminists who fetishize abortion and are proud of their abortions. You won't find this type of attitude in any other culture.

I want to pick this apart a little bit, not pick you apart. Some things are troubling me.

Yes, I see that abortion is treated by many as trivial in Western culture. It's no longer something new, it's been available for over 40 years. Kind of like how the Internet and social media have always been around for many adults and are taken for granted as the norm, as opposed to those who are older and remember a world without it.

I was not aware there was a subculture.

What I'm uncomfortable with here is what's hiding behind the demonization of Lena Dunham and the radical feminists. I dislike Lena Dunham. I might dislike the rhetoric of the subculture you're talking about. But I get the uncomfortable feeling of a new iteration of the old blame of an inherently wicked and stupid Eve for all of man's sins and humankind's punishments. I sense lurking in the background a patriarchal establishment that doesn't have a pill for men to screw with their hormones and bodies. They can stick their junk wherever, and both parties can complain about the discomfort and desensitization of condoms, but the men have no burden to carry, that women have always had to carry. They can always stick their junk somewhere and get off scott free if they so choose. They get hated on for that, too, and I admit, sometimes experience consequences for trying to get off without consequence, it's an oversimplification to believe all of them can. But getting someone else pregnant does not permanently change nor potentially destroy their bodies; for those ten months of pregnancy, they experience zero physical effects. Anyhow, I just sense some demonizing here, not by you but, as before, from a discourse, and I don't see that there's ever been real motivation for men to say, "Fuck that, I don't want to trust someone else to take a pill, give me one so I can take responsbility for my own self-determination and freedom to enjoy sex without the risk of unwanted parenthood." Women always end up being painted the whore for being on the pill, the evil murderess for having an abortion, and the devil in the form of a woman for celebrating getting off scott free herself from her body being an incubator. I'm not saying I agree with the latter, I have discomfort, I just sense a strong imbalance and a paternlistic social dominance hovering in the background, and women taking on more of a social and moral burden than is accurate.

 

[Fedrea]

My wife has an implant in her arm. It's supposed to be effective for 3 more years, after which we'll decide on whether to have a second child or not. Or should I say, she'll decide. I'm not a perfect guy. Maybe I went too far on this thread. Now point me to where I tried to take away the choice to abort from others.

All hormonal contraception is thought to stop implantation of already conceived blastocysts ie early embryos on occasion, particularly progestogen only ones like implants, because of the effects on the endometrium and because they are imperfect anovulents

ACOG changed the definition of pregnancy from something that starts at conception to something that starts at implantation following the invention of hormonal contraception. Presumably because such drugs would otherwise be labelled abortion causing. Pro life and other groups argue life starts at conception. From a biological point of view I personally feel life starts at conception. I have no plans to use hormonal contraception for that reason. I respect the choices of others wrt contraception and abortion though. I do not think there is a "right"

My point here being, it's rather easy to sit on a moral high horse about abortion if you think it's not a choice you'd ever have make eg if male, or that you would make. When in fact, anyone making the choice to have sex using hormonal contraception as the sole protection - male or female- could be arguing to be making the moral choice to risk the occasional pre implantation "abortion".

Some US pro life groups are against hormonal contraception for this reason

 

[Meditation guide]

You won't find this type of attitude in any other culture.

The real victory was the very long, very hard battle to win the right to have legal abortions in the US instead of using a knitting needle jammed up into the cervix risking infection, perforations and bleeding to death. Most of you are too young to know about that time. Back alley abortions became a thing of the past. These were only available to rich well connected women. The rest got a knitting needle and stuck it up there. Emergency rooms were flooded most nights with women and girls bleeding to death. It was a non stop conveyer belt every night of women and even young girls being brought in. Girls as young as 12, dying. Or babies found in trash cans.

 

[Fedrea]

I did not know about this, that is interesting.

I've had sex using hormonal contraception only as protection.

Please could I refer you to my recent post on hormonal contraception and pre implantation blastocyst embryos. Anyone looking down on abortion should consider their own use of hormonal contraception if they want to think through their moral position carefully. Males or females

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Please could I refer you to my recent post on hormonal contraception and pre implantation blastocyst embryos. Anyone looking down on abortion should consider their own use of hormonal contraception if they want to think through their moral position carefully. Males or females

I am not pro-life. You are barking up the wrong tree. I am not taking a "moral" position here. I only claimed that abortion is looked upon more favorably in the Western liberal culture than it is in any other culture. With that being said, there is a difference between blastocyst embryos and a growing fetus that needs to be surgically removed from the body, in relation to the level of intervention required and risks being involved.

 

[Fedrea]

I am not pro-life. You are barking up the wrong tree. I am not taking a "moral" position here. I only claimed that abortion is looked upon more favorably in the Western liberal culture than it is in any other culture. With that being said, there is a difference between blastocyst embryos and a growing fetus that needs to be surgically removed from the body, in relation to the level of intervention required and risks being involved.

A blastocyst is growing fast before implantation and often has something like 80 cells. Differentiation has begun. One could argue, using your line, that both men and women shouldn't take using hormonal contraception so lightly or be proud of having sex using it. I don't say I agree or disagree with your position but it's good to examine our judgements carefully

 

[CarbonMonoxide]

ACOG changed the definition of pregnancy from something that starts at conception to something that starts at implantation following the invention of hormonal contraception.

It is definitely a controversial topic. My wife had sleepless nights before choosing to use the implant.

People are the only mammals who are capable of creating symbolic systems of knowlege, culture. We are the only species aware of its own mortality, the only species with an understanding of history, capable of self reflection and control of our instincts. We are the only species capable of overcoming our instincts through reason and logic.

I wrote this down in my notebook. It's so good to hear your thoughts coming from another person halfway across the world, almost verbatim! I hope you don't mind.