Discussion How can you get a child?

[checkouttime]

Completely agree. Parents are really crazy individuals.

Playing with life as if it was toys bought on Toysurus.

I mean seriously, who in their right mind can have respect for a parent?

I take it you don't have kids?? so i take it your just assuming everything you think about the parents........

so i assume you haven't a clue what your talking about

oh i don't have kids either

 

[LittleJem]

You brought them here, that's evil.

Doesn't matter how much you supposedly "care "for them because I can argue that's also selfish. Which it is.
It gives you comfort in having to care for them. Comfort knowing they might be there when you die etc.

Parents have all uses for their kids.
In the US, there is a poor area where parents are known to prostitute their kids for dope.

That happened to Demi Moore.Her own mother sold her virginity.

 

[ghostspace]

I can only add my own anecdotal perspective, obviously it's going to be different to everyone else's life experiences.

My mom really wanted children, she even wanted a fifth child but that never happened as four was a lot to deal with with my Dad being abusive and unhelpful. She is a nurturing person who took great care and joy in raising us and showing us the world for the first time. I have many sunny memories from my childhood that are priceless to me and I'm grateful for that.

There's nothing wrong with having children. Most people are hoping to give their children the love and support they were lacking or hoping that their children are a better generation than they were.

My mom struggles with depression, anxiety, and ADHD but it wasn't wrong of her to have kids. Me and my siblings all struggle with the same conditions but we get by and are grateful for each other.

She wasn't a perfect parent, but she is the best mom and only mom I could ever want. Being a single parent is hard and she wasn't always there for me, I got hurt and went through terrible things but it wasn't her fault, she was doing the absolute best she could. If she hadn't brought me into the world, I wouldn't have experienced any of my happiest memories, either.

I know some people are less equipped to be parents, but most of them are doing the best they can in a world that's not very forgiving. My dad is an abusive narcissist but he's still doing the best he can as he's literally unable to be more empathetic or understanding than he is.

I think it's unfair and judgmental to condemn people for doing something as natural as having children just because not every family is a happy or safe one. It's also probably hurtful to people on here who have children and are struggling with their own dark thoughts and illnesses.

While it sounds overly optimistic, to a lot of people, children are hope for a better future.

I don't want children, but if I happened to have a child I would try to give them everything I didn't have and teach them love and empathy so that they would grow into a healthy and compassionate adult. Of course they would feel pain, pain is part of being alive and just comes along with being human.

Kids learn by how they see people react to experiences, not just the experiences themselves, so while we can't control the events of the world, we can control our own actions in response to them.

If any parents are reading this, I love you and you are NOT a bad person or parent for raising kids in a difficult and scary world.

An upper class middle life.
The key to happiness..
Lord knows what they would feel like if they were brought up working class.
Not sure why it matters that they are middle class, sounds like snobbery at its finest, oart of the reason people dont feel good enough in the first place.

I think she was just describing her family, it's a stretch to call that snobbery. To me, it sounds like you're projecting.

I think it also raises the point that having a 'comfortable' life doesn't fix emotional problems and everyone's reality is completely different so making judgments like that is pointless.

If she had said lower-class or working class, I'm sure people would have jumped on that to judge her choice to have 'children she couldn't afford in an evil, miserable world'. I'm glad her kids have a loving mother and safe environment.

 

[Mercury6737]

We bring life into this world to love, nurture, raise them and release them into this world as wonderful people.

You don't even believe that, especially the last part lol. There are far too many "products of society" that run counter to what you just said. Beyond that, I've heard/read/seen just about every justification for having kids and they all stem from a selfish "I" reason. It doesn't help that more children than not were so-called "accidents", but that's for another time.

 

[Ghost2211]

You don't even believe that, especially the last part lol. There are far too many "products of society" that run counter to what you just said. Beyond that, I've heard/read/seen just about every justification for having kids and they all stem from a selfish "I" reason. It doesn't help that more children than not were so-called "accidents", but that's for another time.

Humans are selfish by nature. There is little in life we do that brings us zero benefit. That doesn't mean we didn't come from a place of good intention.

 

[Mercury6737]

Humans are selfish by nature.

OK.

That doesn't mean we didn't come from a place of good intention.

Explain how this ties to what is quoted above, as it relates to children obviously.

 

[Ghost2211]

OK.

Explain how this ties to what is quoted above, as it relates to children obviously.

You seem to think it's inherently negative if choices come from "I" reasons, but that's not always the case from my viewpoint. There are emotionally balanced people that come from loving, nurturing, respectful households. It's unreasonable to say that people potentially turning out as "products of society" means nobody should have children. She may have had an idealistic perspective of parenting, but it's unreasonable to say it's completely inaccurate.

 

[Antigonish]

I was kinda worried when I saw the name of the thread. I was like nooooo SS, what have we become!!! Definitely time to CTB.

 

[Mercury6737]

There are emotionally balanced people that come from loving, nurturing, respectful households.

How does one quantify this? As an extension, would you say that if one fails to meet these requirements, then that individual should not have children?

It's unreasonable to say that people potentially turning out as "products of society" means nobody should have children.

At no point have I said anything of the sort.

She may have had an idealistic perspective of parenting, but it's unreasonable to say it's completely inaccurate.

True. So "I" not "we". We are in agreement here.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Oh yay, this thread is active again. It's got all of my favorite elements: blaming, provocation, defensiveness in response to blaming and provcation, unproductive arguing, and ideology. I hope this one gets pinned and can go on forever. It's the best.

 

[Sinkinshyp]

You don't even believe that, especially the last part lol. There are far too many "products of society" that run counter to what you just said. Beyond that, I've heard/read/seen just about every justification for having kids and they all stem from a selfish "I" reason. It doesn't help that more children than not were so-called "accidents", but that's for another time.

I do believe that and have experience in that. My older son was an "accident" the best one that ever happened to me. I can get you about 200 friends - car club mates, 50 co workers and some old neighbors (including a mayor) to tell you what kind of amazing man, friend and person my son was. He died in a car accident almost 3 years ago. It was the other drivers fault. I can actually provide a video of many people talking about what a truly amazing man my son was. He was happy, friends tell me how they go to his facebook page still expecting to see one of his goofy morning posts that gave them laughter for the day, out going, would do anything to help anyone, would have succeeded anything he set out to accomplish. My younger son was planned. I have health issues and almost lost him. I fought hard to keep him and have a full term pregnancy. My younger son was considering quitting his job for another one a couple of months ago. He spoke to his manager and let them know his intent-his 2 week notice I guess. The regional manager spoke to him and let him know how valued he is and they want to make him a manager. He has chosen to stay due to the advancement possibilities he has. While he isn't as outgoing as his older brother he has a a lot to offer this world. At 10 he tested out to be top 17% nationwide for intelligence and they said expect him to hit top10% or better. He is looking at some sort of engineering as his goal.

There is no "I" about it. My children were my contribution to the world. They were loved and cared for. While we weren't rich they never went without. Children are the future of the world. I am sorry for those who have had bad parents. I wish there were better systems in place to protect children.

 

[ghostspace]

You don't even believe that, especially the last part lol. There are far too many "products of society" that run counter to what you just said. Beyond that, I've heard/read/seen just about every justification for having kids and they all stem from a selfish "I" reason. It doesn't help that more children than not were so-called "accidents", but that's for another time.

Opinions aside, you cannot tell someone what they believe or don't believe. You're not in their mind and can't speak for them.

You don't even believe that, especially the last part lol. There are far too many "products of society" that run counter to what you just said. Beyond that, I've heard/read/seen just about every justification for having kids and they all stem from a selfish "I" reason. It doesn't help that more children than not were so-called "accidents", but that's for another time.

At no point have I said anything of the sort.

 

[Sinkinshyp]

I made a post and shared a birthday card my son got me in 2014. He was 22 at that time. This is what he wrote in that card. So don't tell me that all kids are products of society and no one should have kids.. He was a 22 yr old man when he wrote this, working a full time job job. I had respiratory failure in 2013 he became my caregiver. Does anything in this he wrote look like he was abused? neglected? mistreated?

"Mom your birthday means so much to me. To have you in my life another year. The time I spend enfolded in your love each day each moment is so dear. I cherish the very special bond we have. You lift my spirit in so many ways. I celebrate your life. I honor you and send you my love and care and praise. Hope today and the rest of time goes nothing but uphill for you. I appreciate everything you've done for me and I hope for nothing but happiness for you. Love you mom Happy Birthday."

Had he not died 3 years later in a car accident he would have accomplished some of his goals. Many that knew him said the world lost one of the most amazing people they knew.

 

[Acopia]

For me, being on antidepressants has proved to be brilliant contraception.

 

[Ghost2211]

How does one quantify this? As an extension, would you say that if one fails to meet these requirements, then that individual should not have children?

At no point have I said anything of the sort.

True. So "I" not "we". We are in agreement here.

Sorry friend I'm too apathetic and emotionally drained to bother debating. Much love to you.

 

[Mercury6737]

Opinions aside, you cannot tell someone what they believe or don't believe. You're not in their mind and can't speak for them.

Then perhaps we should not use "we" for an "I" opinion? What you quoted was in reference to "... release them into this world as wonderful people." The world would be a different place if that were true, hence "products of society that run counter" etc.

My children were my contribution to the world.

I hope you can see the "I" part in this statement. Regardless, this is a casual debate for me since I have no issue with my parents and people have always done and will continue to do whatever. There's a lot more I could say, but I will not, for obvious reasons.

 

[ghostspace]

Then perhaps we should not use "we" for an "I" opinion? What you quoted was in reference to "... release them into this world as wonderful people." The world would be a different place if that were true, hence "products of society that run counter" etc.

I hope you can see the "I" part in this statement. Regardless, this is a casual debate for me since I have no issue with my parents and people have always done and will continue to do whatever. There's a lot more I could say, but I will not, for obvious reasons.

It's not an opinion. You cannot tell someone what they do or do not believe.

I think you have a very cynical perspective, I feel sorry for you.

 

[Mercury6737]

You cannot tell someone what they do or do not believe.

True, much like what is commonly referred to as an opinion.

I think you have a very cynical perspective, I feel sorry for you.

I see we have reached that point in the discussion.

 

[foxdie]

Omg this thread is like Rasputin, just won't die lol. I guess I'm not helping by replying again. And no one who thinks parents are evil have adequately explained how it's a choice and not a biological drive yet! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!! Wait a minute...

 

[Mercury6737]

And no one who thinks parents are evil have adequately explained how it's a choice and not a biological drive yet!

Last time, you declined to go further. I don't think parents are inherently evil, but I'll play along. Let's assume it's a biological drive. Are you willing to argue that there are different degrees to which people have a biological drive? How would you explain people who are voluntarily childless, even those with active sex lives?

 

[ghostspace]

Last time, you declined to go further. I don't think parents are inherently evil, but I'll play along. Let's assume it's a biological drive. Are you willing to argue that there are different degrees to which people have a biological drive? How would you explain people who are voluntarily childless, even those with active sex lives?

for a 'casual debate' from someone who has 'no issue' with their parents, you really won't let this one go, will you?

 

[Ghost2211]

Omg this thread is like Rasputin, just won't die lol. I guess I'm not helping by replying again. And no one who thinks parents are evil have adequately explained how it's a choice and not a biological drive yet! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!!! Wait a minute...

This made me laugh so hard, thank you. yeah it's majorly a biological drive for me. I still want more babies, I won't.

 

[ghostspace]

Last time, you declined to go further. I don't think parents are inherently evil, but I'll play along. Let's assume it's a biological drive. Are you willing to argue that there are different degrees to which people have a biological drive? How would you explain people who are voluntarily childless, even those with active sex lives?

Oh my god, you literally just explained it. Some people are voluntarily childless, yeah, but the biological part is the active sex drive. They're choosing to not have children but people can't choose to not have a sex drive.

Some people have more or less of a sex drive and that can change with time, environment, medication, health etc.

A sex drive has the biological purpose of resulting in a child.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

I think it's a choice, because logically I can't see the reason for wasting my time and resources on having children. Maybe those with this "drive" have a stronger primitive programming, but I'd argue that the child still owes them and society nothing because they never consented to be brought into this world.

 

[foxdie]

Last time, you declined to go further. I don't think parents are inherently evil, but I'll play along. Let's assume it's a biological drive. Are you willing to argue that there are different degrees to which people have a biological drive? How would you explain people who are voluntarily childless, even those with active sex lives?

I think it's strictly biological and there are not degrees. Go for a week without eating and see how long you can "choose" not to eat. But I'm sorry mon ami, I can no longer engage in this debate in good faith anymore. Lord I have tried! It's not a choice in my view. That is the foundation of this debate, it's the first order issue. I can't debate 2nd or third order issues until this is addressed. It's not a choice! I've been lucky to have access to contraceptives in my time but when I'm horny alone with someone who is also horny there really isn't much of a choice.

 

[Mercury6737]

for a 'casual debate' from someone who has 'no issue' with their parents, you really won't let this one go, will you?

True. This is still casual and I come from a solid two-parent household. I'm willing to argue about anything, as long as people don't get personal. Not sure why this is so upsetting to you...

A sex drive has the biological purpose of resulting in a child.

Every time a person has sex, is the underlying desire to have a child? Are you willing to extend this to same-sex couples?

Go for a week without eating and see how long you can "choose" not to eat.

False equivalence. Also, does it make you feel any different knowing that some terminally ill patients CTB by choosing not to eat/drink?

 

[foxdie]

True. This is still casual and I come from a solid two-parent household. I'm willing to argue about anything, as long as people don't get personal. Not sure why this is so upsetting to you...

Every time a person has sex, is the underlying desire to have a child? Are you willing to extend this to same-sex couples?

False equivalence. Also, does it make you feel any different knowing that some terminally ill patients CTB by choosing not to eat/drink?

When I engage in sex I have zero intentions of having children. Despite my intentions there is always a possiblity I could impregnate someone regardless. I bring up hunger because it is another biological drive and is therefore analogous. Sex and children are inextricably linked, regardless of if you want children or "choose" to have them. Same sex couples are not relevant to this debate. The give into the same drive but there's no risk of pregnancy.

Edit: not to discount same sex parents. They also make excellent and loving parents. Terminally ill patients have medical assistance.

 

[Mercury6737]

When I engage in sex I have zero intentions of having children.

So, one can have sex while having zero intentions of having children. Agreed.

Despite my intentions there is always a possiblity I could impregnate someone regardless.

"I could" so conditional, meaning there is such a way one could make a choice to increase or decrease this possibility?

The give into the same drive but there's no risk of pregnancy.

Is the purpose of sex to have children or not? (You said that). Why have sex if there's no chance of having children?

 

[Mr2005]

Girlfriend wants one but I think she's going to have to adopt. I know there's people jumping for joy but really what difference does it make to their life?

 

[DominusWreck]

I can see your parents were not good to you, but not all parents are bad.

Its not about how the child is treated by parents. What he is saying is that life is inherently a bad thing, as it is mainly suffering with bits of ok moments. He is probably an antinatalist on the humanitarian grounds. Which I am too. You brought a life into this thrasher from non existence, following instinct. And that bred suffering and pain. So philosophically speaking, you've done evil by creating new life.
U followed the instinct or whatever made u have kids. No need to apologise for that, but theoretically he is right

Just because you or I may not be having good lives does not mean that the person you replied to or anyone elses children aren't.

Some people bring children into the world and do everything for them to make sure that they have happy and comfortable lives. And many do that successfully. I struggle to see how that is evil.

Some people deliberately have children they can't look after properly - and sure, I get the argument that is selfish, but with the person you responded to that clearly isn't the case.

Your perspective is primitive beyond belief. He argues for that non existence is inherently and always better than existence.

He also adds that people make kids for selfish reasons. And even care for them for selfish reasons.

So an act of having a child is an act of forcing a new being into suffering,( that is inevitable for living beings,) for selfish reasons.

Yes, that is evil. How good or bad the child's life will be is inconsequential for determining that it is an evil act