Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Skal]

Assume as well that blood in his mask is from pulmonary barotrauma.
Helium like all inert gases, doesnt react or damage tissue.
The only other issue that I can think of is that the pressure was high enough and filled the lungs.

OP here. I was also thinking that the bleeding in the inert gas method was pressure-related. But now that I've experienced it myself, I'm less convinced because I didn't feel any pain in my lungs. If my lungs had actually ruptured, I would've felt massive pain in my chest, but that didn't happen. Also the mask had no problem expelling excess air/gas when I tested it beforehand. That said, I'm still not sure what caused it.
Possibly:
- inflammation of lung tissue caused by rapid oxygen release.
- negative pressure (25L/min is not enough when breathing hard)
- just a massive nosebleed

Yep: https://www.hermantheshocker.com/15-cases-of-helium-suicides/

Also it looks like using an exit bag could still cause bleeding based on this site.

 

[devils~advocate]

Maybe it is a nose bleed from some sort of pressure.

I think that website shows people using bags that are taped, in what appears to be tightly around their necks.
Some of that could be post mortem bleeding regardless of how death occurred, which is common unfortunately.
I had no idea, but there appears to be a lot of explanation on the internet about this. Its not something I wanted to know about.

I think that right now, the only systems that I know will work are the exit bag hood system, EEBD and scba.
The main issue is if the system will function well while someone is unconscious.
Exit bag hood - works from many examples, even those that are lower in craftsmanship.
EEBD /scba are high in craftsmanship and are made to function if someone is unconscious.

Edit: I wanted to apologize, I dont mean to explain away your situation.
Im sorry that this has happened to you.

 

[Skal]

Maybe it is a nose bleed from some sort of pressure.

I think that website shows people using bags that are taped, in what appears to be tightly around their necks.
Some of that could be post mortem bleeding regardless of how death occurred, which is common unfortunately.
I had no idea, but there appears to be a lot of explanation on the internet about this. Its not something I wanted to know about.

I think that right now, the only systems that I know will work are the exit bag hood system, EEBD and scba.
The main issue is if the system will function well while someone is unconscious.
Exit bag hood - works from many examples, even those that are lower in craftsmanship.
EEBD /scba are high in craftsmanship and are made to function if someone is unconscious.

Edit: I wanted to apologize, I dont mean to explain away your situation.
Im sorry that this has happened to you.

Please don't worry, I didn't take it that way at all.
It was horrible but I've had worse, kidney stones were much worse (and they lasted 3 months)
Next time I'm going to go with the standard exit bag and see what happens.

 

[devils~advocate]

Please don't worry, I didn't take it that way at all.
It was horrible but I've had worse, kidney stones were much worse (and they lasted 3 months)
Next time I'm going to go with the standard exit bag and see what happens.

Well i hope it was just a nose bleed and nothing more. Im not sure if you can tell or not the source.

I would say to practice with a cylinder of regular air and see what it does, in whatever system is used. There are so many variables, that using an air cylinder to test the system would be helpful to finding any issues.

I have practiced with a compressed cylinder filled with regular air to get the feel of the system I have.. This is in regards to a SCBA setup.
But I just have not practiced using the system while unconscious.
Im sure it would work fine, but Im afraid to do this, since the mask is a lot tighter. Even though they are used for saving unconscious people (i.e. like in a fire).

There are positive pressure scba systems out there. I have found and attained one off of the big international retail website.
It is composed of the mask and demand valve with hose. A regulator of some kind is needed to finish the system.
These systems of the regulator and demand valve make up the dual stage regulator system.

 

[Skal]

Well i hope it was just a nose bleed and nothing more. Im not sure if you can tell or not the source.

I would say to practice with a cylinder of regular air and see what it does, in whatever system is used. There are so many variables, that using an air cylinder to test the system would be helpful to finding any issues.

I have practiced with a compressed cylinder filled with regular air to get the feel of the system I have.. This is in regards to a SCBA setup.
But I just have not practiced using the system while unconscious.
Im sure it would work fine, but Im afraid to do this, since the mask is a lot tighter. Even though they are used for saving unconscious people (i.e. like in a fire).

There are positive pressure scba systems out there. I have found and attained one off of the big international retail website.
It is composed of the mask and demand valve with hose. A regulator of some kind is needed to finish the system.
These systems of the regulator and demand valve make up the dual stage regulator system.

May I ask what kind of practice you did?
For me, I used a septic air blower to send air to the mask at 23L/min. I tried breathing hard while wearing it and also sleeping for hours, and had no problems at that point (apart from my nose and mouth drying out from the constant airflow from the blower).

 

[devils~advocate]

May I ask what kind of practice you did?
For me, I used a septic air blower to send air to the mask at 23L/min. I tried breathing hard while wearing it and also sleeping for hours, and had no problems at that point (apart from my nose and mouth drying out from the constant airflow from the blower).

I have a scba system. I got a scba cylinder that is normally used with such a system, that is filled with normal air.
Scba is a two stage regulator system. As you know the cylinder has pressurized gas (air, gas, etc) Then there is a propietary regulator made for the system that attaches to the cylinder that drops the pressure down. Then from that regulator a hose goes to a lung demand valve at the mask. It is a kind of regulator as well. Basically It operates on positive pressure to keep the mask filled at all times but stops once it fills it up. Breathing in and out makes the demand valve function.

I have not practiced using this system while unconscious. Im cautious since the mask is tight and the cylinder only has enough air for about 30 minutes...I dont really want to use up the supply. Getting the scba cylinder filled with air is a bit of a hassle. The cylinder has to be tested by third party testing to see if the tank is structurally sound before anyone will fill it with air. This might not be the case in other parts of the world. Scuba diving shops are usually the places to get these cylinders filled under pressure.

So I have practiced while awake but making shallow and deep breathes. Somewhere in this forum, someone discusses how to adjust this demand valve or a part in the mask for the flow to trigger the valve.

 

[sm1the]

May I ask what kind of practice you did?
For me, I used a septic air blower to send air to the mask at 23L/min. I tried breathing hard while wearing it and also sleeping for hours, and had no problems at that point (apart from my nose and mouth drying out from the constant airflow from the blower).

Why are u using a septic system blower?
This is not the proper way as u probably already know.
I doubt the flow on this is accurate and consistent given what its used for.
Using equipment that is obviously not recommended is just inviting complications.
What you have done should be considered a non-method.
I don't mean to sound rude btw.
From what I have personally seen ,I haven't seen barotrauma type injuries from regular EB,EEBD(I dont check SCBA,SCUBA so I don't know) using the normally discussed equipment. Obviously I have seen only a tiny fraction of results from these so I can't be sure there were none.

 

[devils~advocate]

Why are u using a septic system blower?
This is not the proper way as u probably already know.
I doubt the flow on this is accurate and consistent given what its used for.
Using equipment that is obviously not recommended is just inviting complications.
What you have done should be considered a non-method.
I don't mean to sound rude btw.
From what I have personally seen ,I haven't seen barotrauma type injuries from regular EB,EEBD(I dont check SCBA,SCUBA so I don't know) using the normally discussed equipment. Obviously I have seen only a tiny fraction of results from these so I can't be sure there were none.

I believe he was using a blower as part of an elaborate setup that had timers to release gas into a respirator system.
He has a few photos and a diagram that show his system. Its quite ingenious.
The concern is where and how the bleeding started. Im not sure if he can tell where it started.
It might be a nose bleed or it might be something more.
My suggestion is to practice with a cylinder filled with regular air. This way one can tell how the system will function.
To practice with shallow breathes that simulate what happens during unconsciousness. And with strong erratic breathes as well.
Then to see how various flow rates affect all this.

 

[mysticall]

Thank you for the detailed instructions, friend!

 

[Skal]

The concern is where and how the bleeding started. Im not sure if he can tell where it started.
It might be a nose bleed or it might be something more.

I've had a headache since yesterday and thought it was just a cold. But then I noticed blood mixed in with my runny nose (since I'm not coughing, it's probably not from my lungs.)
Usually when I catch a cold, I get a cough and a sore throat, but this time I have none of those symptoms.
I also don't normally get nosebleeds when I have a cold. So this might not be just an ordinary cold.
If the headache and the blood in my nose are due to my failed attempt, then the bleeding during the attempt could've been a nosebleed.
Maybe my brain was damaged by low oxygen levels, which caused the nosebleed.

 

[Skal]

Why are u using a septic system blower?
This is not the proper way as u probably already know.
I doubt the flow on this is accurate and consistent given what its used for.
Using equipment that is obviously not recommended is just inviting complications.
What you have done should be considered a non-method.
I don't mean to sound rude btw.
From what I have personally seen ,I haven't seen barotrauma type injuries from regular EB,EEBD(I dont check SCBA,SCUBA so I don't know) using the normally discussed equipment. Obviously I have seen only a tiny fraction of results from these so I can't be sure there were none.

Septic blowers are designed to run 24/7, they have very tough motors.
As far as my tests go, it had no problem running for hours with no airflow fluctuation or stopping in the middle.
And as I said before, I haven't felt any lung pain or coughed up blood either, so I think a pressure injury is unlikely.

Well, physical tolerance varies from person to person. I heard that someone who attempted hanging almost lost their eyesight due to high pressure in their eyes. Some people got red dots all over their faces due to internal bleeding.
I've tried hanging many times myself but haven't experienced any of those. Maybe I have a higher tolerance for hanging, but not for the inert gas method.

 

[BirdWatcher]

My story of buying helium

I've seen people on here beeing nervous about buying inert gas before, and sharing their reports about how it went. I got my helium yesterday and thought it might perhaps be interesting for some to hear my story. I want to stress of course that this is my personal anecdote, it might go very differently for others.

I'm from germany and found a welding supply shop that ships all kinds of professional-grade gas cylinders, tools and accessories. They have nitrogen and argon as well, but I went for the helium. I chose a cylinder of Helium 4.0 with 8L at 150 Bar. It comes together with an argon flowmeter, a piece of tubing, and a gas pistol for filling balloons. I already posted an image of what all of that looks like back on page 199 of this thread. The whole set cost 239 Euros. The company has their own online shop, but they also maintain a presence on a certain big american online retailer who's name starts with an A. I chose the latter.

Ordering the gas was as easy as ordering anything else on there, and it got shipped the next day with the normal parcel delivery service DPD. There was no special courier service involved or anything. I was home to expect the package, but the web tracking claimed it could not be delivered and so was forwarded to a "nearby" pickup shop. This might not have had anything to do with it beeing a gas tank, I've had the same problem with DPD in the past with other orders as well. They just lie and let me pick it up myself instead of delivering it.

I'm physically disabled and don't have a car, so hauling that tank back home wasn't easy for me. The package weighed 15 Kg and was awkward to carry. Thankfully I could take most of the way by tram. Without public transportation that whole journey would have been impossible for me and I would have had to try and refund it or something. If anyone else should find themselves in the position of having to haul a big gas cylinder around, I would definitively recommend to get some kind of hand truck for it. That would have saved me much pain and exertion.

The package itself had some red tape around it, a general warning not to throw it around, and the name of the welding supplier. But otherwise it was a normal (if big) cardboard box with no indication of what was inside. The pickup shop guy needed to see my ID, but that's normal procedure. No one really paid me any mind with it.

If anyone had asked any questions, I had a cover story preparded: It's for a light-hearted joke at work where we want to fill the office of a retiree with balloons on his last day.

I haven't actually tried using the tank yet, but everything looks alright atleast. I'm keeping it in its packaging in a corner of my bedroom for now. I had waited with ordering the gas for when the guy I'm sharing the apartment with was out on holidays for a week. Him is the only one I was really nervous about seeing the box when I bring it home, and asking questions about it.

My next step will be DIYing an exit bag.

 

[TiredAndBurntOut]

Hello everyone. I had a question on what kind of bag to use if I don't have access to any gases. I understand that without gas, a plastic bag method is less than idea, but due to my financial and personal situation, I'd rather just do the bag. I did make a seperate thread asking about which bag(s) would be better. Thank you for your time.

 

[ReturnToNothing]

I apologize if I missed this in the body of the OP, but it seems unclear:

Once the bag is filled, after sliding it over the head, is the gas flow supposed to continue? The initial body calls for gas flow for much longer than it would take to inflate the bag, but if the gas is inert and all co2 has been removed from the bag beforehand, what's the use of keeping the flow going?

 

[BirdWatcher]

Longer served forum members might be able to go into more details, but from my understanding:

Hello everyone. I had a question on what kind of bag to use if I don't have access to any gases. I understand that without gas, a plastic bag method is less than idea, but due to my financial and personal situation, I'd rather just do the bag. I did make a seperate thread asking about which bag(s) would be better. Thank you for your time.

I would strongly discourage anyone from ctb with just a plastic bag over their head without gas or an overdose of sleeping pills. Just putting a bag over your head creates carbon dioxide poisoning, which causes an extreme panic reaction. If you'll be able to go through with it at all it will be a very horrible death experience. If you can not acquire gas, then it might be worth to look into other ctb methods than asphyxiation.

I apologize if I missed this in the body of the OP, but it seems unclear:

Once the bag is filled, after sliding it over the head, is the gas flow supposed to continue? The initial body calls for gas flow for much longer than it would take to inflate the bag, but if the gas is inert and all co2 has been removed from the bag beforehand, what's the use of keeping the flow going?

Yes, you're supposed to ensure a continued flow of gas into the exit bag for atleast 20 minutes. This is to create (light) overpressure inside the bag which makes sure no oxygen can come in from the outside, and that all the carbon dioxide you will continue to breath out will be pushed out of the bag.

 

[ReturnToNothing]

I see, I thought that since nitrogen doesn't actually get converted into Co2, that if you purge the bag of co2 properly before filling it up, there wouldn't be a need to expel it.

 

[floweryrosee]

Is the use of Benzo against with this method? Just a curious question since I heard some of the failed attempts where to SI kicking in.

 

[sm1the]

I set up all the straps on the chair (again!).
I got these heavy duty non-elastic cinch straps placed at -

Right armrest wrist and elbow area.

Left armrest elbow area.

Paracord(1 single loop) around left wrist area to slide my wrist into.T circumference of this is the same as the widest point of my hand with THUMB tucked in.so that when the hand is through the loop and thumb is in normal position, it will give some resistance from being removed from the loop.
Obviously, I can't use a cinch strap here with no free hands.
I may change the Left elbow strap to paracord too if I'm having trouble easily reaching the straps to tighten them here.
What do u think?.
Restraints have been a point of concern for me so I'm very interested in what you all think.

 

[TiredAndBurntOut]

I would strongly discourage anyone from ctb with just a plastic bag over their head without gas or an overdose of sleeping pills. Just putting a bag over your head creates carbon dioxide poisoning, which causes an extreme panic reaction. If you'll be able to go through with it at all it will be a very horrible death experience. If you can not acquire gas, then it might be worth to look into other ctb methods than asphyxiation

I understand this but I'm pretty sure this the method I want to go. I can probably get some money doing odd jobs for sleeping pills. Please just let me know which bag is most effective. The original post said oven bags. Is this true?

 

[sm1the]

Lately,I have become extremely fearful of failing.
I had everything (EEBD, N2 etc) all done,tested but began entertaining doubts such as connection security ,ELSA exhaust valve working correctly,regulator malfunctioning...etc etc.
I was obsessive when setting this up but still had doubts,so much so that I got another ELSA and set it up again.

This time I tested the hood with included air cylinder to check for exhaust valve function while breathing air.

I measured the hoses with barbed hose joiners inserted numerous times before choosing the correct size branded single ear stepless clamp.

The hose itself ,I spent weeks picking the most appropriate (at least what I think is most appropriate),though this was done during the 1st setup.

I purchased and chose from 5 regulators,down to a choice of 2 which I kept going back and forth between.
However,I have finally decided on one.

So I have everything set up,SI is not a problem(too much pain for SI to be an issue I think).
I'm completely ready.
However,I'm still not a 100% sure that I'm completely confident.I keep thinking I missed something in the setup etc.

I wish there was some way to evaluate my setup.

What are some test for the setup that would be beneficial to minimize risks?.
(Ive already done the dummy hood o2 test but I'm doing it again soon).

 

[User8]

However,I'm still not a 100% sure that I'm completely confident.I keep thinking I missed something in the setup etc.

I wish there was some way to evaluate my setup.

You want certainty and no matter how perfect you want it to be you will never have certainty. It's a psychological issue that only you can fix.

 

[sm1the]

You want certainty and no matter how perfect you want it to be you will never have certainty. It's a psychological issue that only you can fix.

Yes I do completely understand this but at the same time given that I only have 1 shot at succeeding(as opposed to failing with possibly worse issues as a consequence) I can't seem to help it.
I have tried to take action(as difficult as it is physically for me right now) than just whine about it,lol.
This is why I did a new setup.
This actually my 3rd or even 4th setup if u are counting.
I started out with cheaper Chinese hood and other equipment I didn't research that well.
Then as I got more concerned with quality of setup I kept adding much better equipment.
I think there's nothing more I can improve with the setup and I dont plan on changing anything.
My hands are starting to give me a lot of trouble too.
Im going to do another O2 tester/dummy test.
Are there any other tests that are helpful?.
No one has to worry that they will 'influence' be BTW,I decided decades ago.

 

[BirdWatcher]

An update to my Helium odyssey:

I've had the apartment for myself today and so decided to test the setup. And failed at step 0 already lol. The gas cylinder has a big metal security cap on it, that I could not manage to get off. The cap does not have a wrench head on top, as I've seen with other models. It's just a smooth egg with a few openings on the side. I can't get a grip anywhere on that thing to turn it open.

Searching for solutions online I found the advise to (gently) hammer the cap to try and re-align the screw thread. People also recommend to use a chain wrench or strap wrench to get a grip on the cap. Or even an impact hammer, if all else fails. I've now ordered some specialist wrenches like that. I hope I'll get it off eventually, would be really pathetic if I fail at step zero. I will report back once I've tried it with those, just to document the whole process for other (future) users who might have the same problem. Because I couldn't find anything on it on this forum (and little on the wider internet).

Of course I would also be very interested to hear if anyone else here has experience with cylinders like this and knows how to open them.

Spoiler: image of the gas cylinder with security cap

 

[devils~advocate]

An update to my Helium odyssey:

I've had the apartment for myself today and so decided to test the setup. And failed at step 0 already lol. The gas cylinder has a big metal security cap on it, that I could not manage to get off. The cap does not have a wrench head on top, as I've seen with other models. It's just a smooth egg with a few openings on the side. I can't get a grip anywhere on that thing to turn it open.

Searching for solutions online I found the advise to (gently) hammer the cap to try and re-align the screw thread. People also recommend to use a chain wrench or strap wrench to get a grip on the cap. Or even an impact hammer, if all else fails. I've now ordered some specialist wrenches like that. I hope I'll get it off eventually, would be really pathetic if I fail at step zero. I will report back once I've tried it with those, just to document the whole process for other (future) users who might have the same problem. Because I couldn't find anything on it on this forum (and little on the wider internet).

Of course I would also be very interested to hear if anyone else here has experience with cylinders like this and knows how to open them.

One way to open the vale cap is a "Cylinder Valve Wrench". Its basically a piece of steel rod formed to a "J' at one end.
Another way is to use a "strap wrench". This one is more attainable and inexpensive unlike the other.
There are rubber and metal strap kinds.
(Ytube has videos on how to remove welding cylinder caps)

 

[User8]

Of course I would also be very interested to hear if anyone else here has experience with cylinders like this and knows how to open them.

I had the same issue. It took a bit of patience to get it open. The cap is screwed a bit too tight. I used a couple of large screw drivers and used the holes in the cap to force it open. Good luck.

 

[devils~advocate]

I had the same issue. It took a bit of patience to get it open. The cap is screwed a bit too tight. I used a couple of large screw drivers and used the holes in the cap to force it open. Good luck.

Yes a screwdriver can work fine.
They do make a special tool to remove the valve cap, but I think it is too expensive to justify a one time use.




Also a strap wrench could work as well.

 

[lunamoonki]

Hi. Do you think 106L is at least enough to make a 155 lbs personn unconscious? How long do you think it keeps a person unconscious?

 

[BirdWatcher]

Thanks for all the tips!

I got myself a strap wrench and a chain wrench. It was all a bit finicky, but I put one around the cap and one around the cylinder. That gave me enough grip and torque to finally get the cap off. Looking at it, the threading was cloged with rust and grime. I've cleaned it with a toothbrush now, and will put the cap back on lightly for further storage.

Without help this is definitively not something for people who might have problems with their hands or other impairments like this.

And now a few days ago construction work started at my apartment building. Specifically on the façade. We're getting new insulation, plaster and paint. This means there's now scaffolding around the building and a team of people walking and working right ouside my upper floor window, looking into my room every now and then. I can put the curtains up for privacy, but this situation is just not ideal to kms. Especially because I wanted to keep the windows open for the gas to dissipate. I might have to wait until they're finished, whenever that might be. Or weekends maybe, but that's when my flatmate is more likely to be home as well.

 

[sm1the]

Does anyone know what time is acceptable to get 0% O2 environment in a Dummy+EEBD(or exit bag etc) test is?
I did ask this before but I didn't get any times in the replies so I though I will try 1 more time.

Vizy said he got 0% O2 in the hood in 30 seconds,but I'm wondering if this is accurate or not?

My last test using a toptes 756 took around 2min30sec ,I'm a bit concerned with this.

I did another 2 tests a couple of days ago
I had been leak testing previously and the hood was full of gas.
I then did the dummy test but completely forgot to air the EEBD to bring it back down to normal oxygen levels(20.9%)! Lol.
I didn't catch this because I was relying on the video to later check results.
I did this same mistake a 2nd time straight after while re-testing.

I have pretty bad medical issues atm so its hard to concentrate.

I will do another and possibly final test soon once I have the energy and have a good day.

 

[User8]

Vizy said he got 0% O2 in the hood in 30 seconds,but I'm wondering if this is accurate or not?

Considering that nitrogen is slightly lighter than air, at a flow rate of 15l/m I would say that any O2 is pushed out of the hood/bag pretty quickly, maybe just a few seconds.... Also the hood is pre-filled with nitrogen before you pull it down to the head. Maybe do a test but this time you pre-fill the hood/bag beforehand? Sorry this is all I can help with. I hope your health sitation improves.