Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[limeoctave]

She linked an article under the quote I posted, but i did not really understand or connect how a lower sugar intake would lower the exhaled co2. I been searching for any more evidence but it's quite scarce, either it's not a well researched effect or there is no correlation. I found a study that showed increased co2 levels in diabetics, so it may have some impact? You seem more knowledgeable about medical science than I am.

Exhaled carbon monoxide levels elevated in diabetes and correlated with glucose concentration in blood: a new test for monitoring the disease? - PubMed

Elevated levels of exhaled CO in diabetes may reflect HO-1 induction and oxidative stress. The measurement of CO may be a new tool for disease monitoring.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Either way I can't say it matters in a significant way, co2 will always be exhaled and its effect is most prominent with exit bags since it has no exhaled valves.

Thanks for the reply

I also could not understand if there is a significant correlation and is it correlated with sugar or carbohydrates in general, but I have not delved deeply into this topic

Exhaled carbon monoxide levels elevated in diabetes and correlated with glucose concentration in blood: a new test for monitoring the disease? - PubMed

Elevated levels of exhaled CO in diabetes may reflect HO-1 induction and oxidative stress. The measurement of CO may be a new tool for disease monitoring.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

btw this article is about carbon monoxide and not carbon dioxide

The quote from the article that she linked:

"The carbon we breathe out as carbon dioxide comes from the carbon in the food we eat. The carbohydrates, fat and proteins we consume and digest are eventually converted by a number of different biochemical pathways in the body to glucose (C6H12O6). The glucose molecule is then combined with oxygen in the cells of the body in a chemical reaction called "cellular oxidation". This chemical reaction is exothermic, that is, it produces the chemical energy that is needed to drive all the other chemical reactions and functions of a cell. The end products of oxidation of glucose are carbon dioxide and water. The carbon dioxide is dissolved in the blood, carried to the lungs by the circulation, and breathed out."

We breath in oxygen and breath out carbon dioxide, where does the carbon come from?

www.smh.com.au

There are no words in the article that say that lowering sugar intake will lead to lowering exhaled carbon dioxide. I don't know why and from what she managed to draw this conclusion

 

[Kapsyl]

There are no words in the article that say that lowering sugar intake will lead to lowering exhaled carbon dioxide. I don't know why and from what she managed to draw this conclusion

Then we can probably dismiss this claim or downplay its significants to overcome SI. Unfortunate since exit bag users has reportedly having problem with rising co2 levels making them abort due to feelings of suffocation.

On a positive note we can have a last meal filled with sweets without feeling guilty.

Thank you for your critical thinking, enable us to learn more.

 

[Elzar]

All those percentages would be fine.
I would be wary of the balloon helium being 99%, as there is no reason for it to be that pure.
They switched to about 80% He, 20% atmosphere to prevent ctb.
Many have not remembered to change the figures on their spec sheet.

Thank you. Yeah I don't trust the Balloon Helium either. Since they do actually fill it up themselves, from what I understand, even that should most likely be fine, but yes it's not worth the risk.
I wonder what the "purity threshold" for these methods is.
I mean 99% and up should be no problem, 80% would definitely not work, but what about 95% and such?
At which point would it become ineffective?
And, more interestingly, would 99,9% make a tangible difference to "just" 99%, I wonder?

Regarding my flow-rate problem:
Maybe I should just buy a 2 Liter tank, turn the flow-meter to 5 LPM (from Argon to Helium that should be 15 LPM) and watch how long it takes to run empty.
I've kind of done that with the testing of the Exit Bags and trying different flow-rates, but that's actually made it more difficult to get a clear picture.
Just letting a smaller tank run completely through might give me the best idea where I actually am, I think ...

Nitrogen would be a smart move.
Since atmosphere is something like 78% nitrogen, the difference wouldn't be noticable.
The densities of Argon, Nitrogen and atmosphere are very close, making the flow meter settings not so important.
Helium is much lighter, causing flow meter accuracy problems.
Helium is currently scarce, causing a significant cost increase.

Yes

Yup, i'd be rid of the flow-rate questions, which remain my main concern.
Would have to buy a new regulator/flow-meter though. Hmm.
Ideal flow-rate for Nitrogen is 20 to 25 LPM, iirc?
Nitrogen is not as light and therefore ideal as Helium, bus does not have the Argon heaviness problem, right?
Helium being so light was originally why I decided to use it - it's supposed to be the most effective at pushing the heavier CO2 down and out of the bag...

 

[outrider567]

Any thoughts on eating or not eating before hand,anyone felt nauseous during it,is an empty stomach better to help with the possibility of being sick inside the hood from nerves or the gas making you feel wosey.?

No, Nitrogen did not make me nauseous at all, just like breathing air

Thank you. Yeah I don't trust the Balloon Helium either. Since they do actually fill it up themselves, from what I understand, even that should most likely be fine, but yes it's not worth the risk.
I wonder what the "purity threshold" for these methods is.
I mean 99% and up should be no problem, 80% would definitely not work, but what about 95% and such?
At which point would it become ineffective?
And, more interestingly, would 99,9% make a tangible difference to "just" 99%, I wonder?

Regarding my flow-rate problem:
Maybe I should just buy a 2 Liter tank, turn the flow-meter to 5 LPM (from Argon to Helium that should be 15 LPM) and watch how long it takes to run empty.
I've kind of done that with the testing of the Exit Bags and trying different flow-rates, but that's actually made it more difficult to get a clear picture.
Just letting a smaller tank run completely through might give me the best idea where I actually am, I think ...


Yup, i'd be rid of the flow-rate questions, which remain my main concern.
Would have to buy a new regulator/flow-meter though. Hmm.
Ideal flow-rate for Nitrogen is 20 to 25 LPM, iirc?
Nitrogen is not as light and therefore ideal as Helium, bus does not have the Argon heaviness problem, right?
Helium being so light was originally why I decided to use it - it's supposed to be the most effective at pushing the heavier CO2 down and out of the bag...

Successful CTB's have been done with 15 LPM Nitrogen, but Vizzy set his at 20 LPM--My flowmeter goes from 15 to 25, not 20--But since I have a huge tank, I think I may go with 25 LPM

inert gases can make you sick and feel queasy after long exposure, nitrogen and helium less and argon and other inert gases more. But since it happens so quickly (if doing it correctly) you will not have time to become sick and other effects will become more prominent like shortness of breath and increased hearth rate.

Onomatopoeia suggested not eating any sugars to lower the co2 byproduct you exhale combined with hyperventilating to minimize the feeling of being suffocated, this is more important with methods that don't vent the co2 like exit bag.

I ate plenty of sugar before my many Nitrogen Tests, made no difference whatsoever, no feelings of nausea, suffocation, or claustrophobia, everthing was smooth as silk

 

[limeoctave]

Maybe I should just buy a 2 Liter tank, turn the flow-meter to 5 LPM (from Argon to Helium that should be 15 LPM) and watch how long it takes to run empty.

Wouldn't the flow rate decrease over time as the pressure in the cylinder decreases?

But maybe you have a two stage regulator that seems to be better at maintaining pressure and flow.

But I don't know for sure if the flow rate decreases over time and how much, I just heard about it and was wondering. Does anyone know? Is it significant?

 

[Elzar]

Successful CTB's have been done with 15 LPM Nitrogen, but Vizzy set his at 20 LPM--My flowmeter goes from 15 to 25, not 20--But since I have a huge tank, I think I may go with 25 LPM

What kind of Nitrogen flow-meter do have?
I haven't really looked into it (as I'm still leaning towards using Helium) but did not find "real" Nitrogen regulator, just the usual O2/Argon ones - which isn't a big problem in this case, because Nitrogen is much closer in terms of density, I guess?

Wouldn't the flow rate decrease over time as the pressure in the cylinder decreases?

But maybe you have a two stage regulator that seems to be better at maintaining pressure and flow.

But I don't know for sure if the flow rate decreases over time and how much, I just heard about it and was wondering. Does anyone know? Is it significant?

As far as I know the flow-rate should only really decrease right at the very end, when the tank is basically empty.
If one vs. two stage regulators make a difference in that regard I have no idea - I have one of those "floating ball" ones.

 

[Kapsyl]

Thank you. Yeah I don't trust the Balloon Helium either. Since they do actually fill it up themselves, from what I understand, even that should most likely be fine, but yes it's not worth the risk.
I wonder what the "purity threshold" for these methods is.
I mean 99% and up should be no problem, 80% would definitely not work, but what about 95% and such?
At which point would it become ineffective?
And, more interestingly, would 99,9% make a tangible difference to "just" 99%, I wonder?

The human body has a marvelous survival instinct, even if our minds have given up the body will still continue to fight until it last breath. On that note we try to ensure a finite environment were the body cannot survive which is below 6% oxygen, the less oxygen the quicker the cells will die.

With a lesser pure inert gas than the recommended 97-98% it gives the body time to survive and prolonging ctb. Instead of the 12-15 min it takes normally it can take considerably longer as shown in the face mask case were a woman took 38 min to take her final breath. She successfully lost consciousness indicating her oxygen level was below 12% but not 0-2% like the others making her survive considerably longer. The same mechanics but the higher oxygen level slowed the rate of cell death.

She ultimately succeeded ctb but time is an issue here, if the gas would run out oxygen could replace the previous inert environment sustaining life which you possibly recovering with brain damage. Most setups don't have gas longer than 60 min so quickness is a factor to consider.

Can't image a significant difference between 99% pure to 99.9 %

Wouldn't the flow rate decrease over time as the pressure in the cylinder decreases?

But maybe you have a two stage regulator that seems to be better at maintaining pressure and flow.

But I don't know for sure if the flow rate decreases over time and how much, I just heard about it and was wondering. Does anyone know? Is it significant?

The flow rate would be affected when the pressure is lower than the set operating pressure of the flowmeter, in my case something like 30 psi.

 

[Elzar]

The human body has a marvelous survival instinct, even if our minds have given up the body will still continue to fight until it last breath. On that note we try to ensure a finite environment were the body cannot survive which is below 6% oxygen, the less oxygen the quicker the cells will die.

With a lesser pure inert gas than the recommended 97-98% it gives the body time to survive and prolonging ctb. Instead of the 12-15 min it takes normally it can take considerably longer as shown in the face mask case were a woman took 46 min to take her final breath. She successfully lost consciousness indicating her oxygen level was below 12% but not 0-2% like the others making her survive considerably longer. The same mechanics but the higher oxygen level slowed the rate of cell death.

She ultimately succeeded ctb but time is an issue here, if the gas would run out oxygen could replace the previous inert environment sustaining life which you possibly recovering with brain damage. Most setups don't have gas longer than 60 min so quickness is a factor to consider.

Very interesting. Gas running out before I have successfully ctb'd is my biggest fear.

 

[Kapsyl]

Very interesting. Gas running out before I have successfully ctb'd is my biggest fear.

A closed circuit system like scuba/scba or any other method which doesn't allow air in the system would provide a failsafe, were when out of gas ordinary suffocation would commence. Or get a larger supply of inert gas, 10 liter cylinder with 200 bar would last you hour and a half at 20/lpm but still be manageable to move the cylinder around.

 

[Elzar]

Or get a larger supply of inert gas, 10 liter cylinder with 200 bar would last you hour and a half at 20/lpm but still be manageable to move the cylinder around.

That's exactly what I'm planning to get. Just a little torn if it's going to be Helium again or if I should switch to Nitrogen.
I did look at the Neptune 3 initially but ultimately decided against it, because it seemed too complicated for me.
Which is probably not even true, but I have so little free time and very little energy when I do have time... making an Exit Bag and buying a Helium tank seemed much simpler...

 

[outrider567]

What kind of Nitrogen flow-meter do have?
I haven't really looked into it (as I'm still leaning towards using Helium) but did not find "real" Nitrogen regulator, just the usual O2/Argon ones - which isn't a big problem in this case, because Nitrogen is much closer in terms of density, I guess?

As far as I know the flow-rate should only really decrease right at the very end, when the tank is basically empty.
If one vs. two stage regulators make a difference in that regard I have no idea - I have one of those "floating ball" ones.

Click style flowmeter/Regulator

Wouldn't the flow rate decrease over time as the pressure in the cylinder decreases?

But maybe you have a two stage regulator that seems to be better at maintaining pressure and flow.

But I don't know for sure if the flow rate decreases over time and how much, I just heard about it and was wondering. Does anyone know? Is it significant?

I have a huge 3500 Liter Nitrogen Tank--Despite the PSI dropping from 2200 to 1600 after two years, there is still enough Nitrogen to kill me over 10 times

 

[limeoctave]

I have a huge 3500 Liter Nitrogen Tank--Despite the PSI dropping from 2200 to 1600 after two years, there is still enough Nitrogen to kill me over 10 times

I mean, in the process of working, when the regulator is working and the tank is open, how fast will the flow rate decrease and how much? and will it decrease at all?

 

[outrider567]

I mean, in the process of working, when the regulator is working and the tank is open, how fast will the flow rate decrease and how much? and will it decrease at all?

I haven't read of any instance or circumstance where the flow rate would ever decrease

 

[limeoctave]

The flow rate would be affected when the pressure is lower than the set operating pressure of the flowmeter, in my case something like 30 psi.

Thanks for the clarification. Are you using nitrogen? and what is the flow rate in your case — if the operating pressure is 30 psi?

 

[Kapsyl]

Thanks for the clarification. Are you using nitrogen? and what is the flow rate in your case — if the operating pressure is 30 psi?

I'm using nitrogen and the flowmeter is set at 20/lpm. The psi may be higher maybe 40-50 psi I don't know exactly but it's pretty low. The flowmeter wouldn't be affected until the cylinder is almost empty.

 

[limeoctave]

I'm using nitrogen and the flowmeter is set at 20/lpm. The psi may be higher maybe 40-50 psi I don't know exactly but it's pretty low. The flowmeter wouldn't be affected until the cylinder is almost empty.

sounds good, thank you

 

[Justnotme]

Click style flowmeter/Regulator

I have a huge 3500 Liter Nitrogen Tank--Despite the PSI dropping from 2200 to 1600 after two years, there is still enough Nitrogen to kill me over 10 times

And how could the pressure in the cylinder decrease? After all, the cylinder is filled with gas at a pressure of 150 bar or 200 bar, for example ...
And it turns out that the amount of gas in the cylinder should change if you use it, but not the pressure under which this gas was pumped into the cylinder

 

[limeoctave]

And how could the pressure in the cylinder decrease? After all, the cylinder is filled with gas at a pressure of 150 bar or 200 bar, for example ...
And it turns out that the amount of gas in the cylinder should change if you use it, but not the pressure under which this gas was pumped into the cylinder

As I understand it, the pressure and the amount of gas can decrease over time due to small leaks, and the pressure decreases because the amount of gas decreases, because the very large amount of gas in the tank creates that pressure, but I'm not sure

 

[outrider567]

And how could the pressure in the cylinder decrease? After all, the cylinder is filled with gas at a pressure of 150 bar or 200 bar, for example ...
And it turns out that the amount of gas in the cylinder should change if you use it, but not the pressure under which this gas was pumped into the cylinder

doesn't matter

 

[kudaphillips]

ok… new member longtime suicide venturer but I have ridiculous SI , huge fear of failure and being vegetable because I do not trust anything in life especially after how it's gone . To wimpy for firearms but might go this route because less chance of SI ruining the attempt , but it's freaking tough to do. Prob got mentally closest with shotgun method , Nembutal owner but can't figure out the exit test kits, never works, and my brain is fucked and doesn't metabolize drugs correctly and I get horrendous unspeakable reactions from this drug class ( gaba agonists ) . Anyway…the exit bag method

I've had a 20 cf nitrogen tank for a few years , made several exit bags , different elastics , headband , I pull it over my head most nights to try and get used to it , never started the gas though. After reading through the thread I decided to get a 40 cf , starting to feel a little better about it because gas running out was a large fear. My questions are

1. Size of the chord..I cannot find a toggle large enough for the half inch elastic recommend …anywhere ..tried hard… I have pretty small elastic( less than the recommended 5/8 inch), but this shouldn't really matter right ? As long as not too tight and not too lose , you should be able to slip a finger under it , it should be fine ? This doesn't seem to be a main source of failure but want to make sure

2. Gone crazy with the step of taping the tubing to the bag. Ppeh had a ridiculous complex explanation of this ( cut two slits in duct tape and feed a wire tie through it ) etc, also says the Betty video shows how to do this..took me forever to find the Betty video and it doesn't say anything about this . Shouldn't you just tape the tube inside the bag 5-8 cm from ththe bottom and that be totally fine ?this shouldn't matter much I feel?

3.the use of micropore tape. I feel it sticks pretty well…but duct tape and packing tape seem to stick way better ..is there a reason other than sticking power that these tapes aren't used?

4. Failures.. and why they happen. If the nitrogen is tested,40 cf tank, max dog regulator at 15 lpm, turkey exit bag made correctly , bag filled up till it's like a balloon on forehead, rapid hyper breathing for 2 minutes, huge exhale even longer than you usually exhale , then biggest breath you can possibly take , sitting upright in a chair , tank strapped down so it won't fall, this shouldn't fail right?
I think maybe people don't take a big enough breath and it takes longer to blackout and they get SI ?
For something such heavily advocated in th community , I see an awful lot of failure stories , some horror stories with the brain damage . I understand there's failure with any method and it's just about finding one you're comfortable with to do nature best chance

5. Is it a good practice to follow the procedure , and if you don't pass out in a breath or two than bail on the attempt ? This thinking I feel will help my SI restrictions possibly. Or is this not recommended ? I've seen people say you don't get brain damage unless you pass out , and the attempt is subsequently botched for other reasons

 

[Coconteppi]

She linked an article under the quote I posted, but i did not really understand or connect how a lower sugar intake would lower the exhaled co2. I been searching for any more evidence but it's quite scarce, either it's not a well researched effect or there is no correlation. I found a study that showed increased co2 levels in diabetics, so it may have some impact? You seem more knowledgeable about medical science than I am.

Exhaled carbon monoxide levels elevated in diabetes and correlated with glucose concentration in blood: a new test for monitoring the disease? - PubMed

Elevated levels of exhaled CO in diabetes may reflect HO-1 induction and oxidative stress. The measurement of CO may be a new tool for disease monitoring.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Either way I can't say it matters in a significant way, co2 will always be exhaled and its effect is most prominent with exit bags since it has no exhaled valves.

I believe with more sugar/carbs cellular respiratuon increases. During this process the cells produce CO2. This is then carried by the blood stream and out the lungs. Hence more sugar > more cellular respiration > more CO2.

(Just speaking as a possible answer. Please do not take my word as fact.)

 

[outrider567]

Ok, i did another test with my Nitrogen Tank and the EEBD Hood--After 5 or 6 breaths at 25 LPM, my O2 level dropped from 97 to 80, I then felt a little faint, took the EEBD Hood off--In the next 10 seconds, my O2 Level dropped all the way to 40!--Nitrogen really eliminates Oxygen in the body quite quickly and effectively

ok… new member longtime suicide venturer but I have ridiculous SI , huge fear of failure and being vegetable because I do not trust anything in life especially after how it's gone . To wimpy for firearms but might go this route because less chance of SI ruining the attempt , but it's freaking tough to do. Prob got mentally closest with shotgun method , Nembutal owner but can't figure out the exit test kits, never works, and my brain is fucked and doesn't metabolize drugs correctly and I get horrendous unspeakable reactions from this drug class ( gaba agonists ) . Anyway…the exit bag method

I've had a 20 cf nitrogen tank for a few years , made several exit bags , different elastics , headband , I pull it over my head most nights to try and get used to it , never started the gas though. After reading through the thread I decided to get a 40 cf , starting to feel a little better about it because gas running out was a large fear. My questions are

1. Size of the chord..I cannot find a toggle large enough for the half inch elastic recommend …anywhere ..tried hard… I have pretty small elastic( less than the recommended 5/8 inch), but this shouldn't really matter right ? As long as not too tight and not too lose , you should be able to slip a finger under it , it should be fine ? This doesn't seem to be a main source of failure but want to make sure

2. Gone crazy with the step of taping the tubing to the bag. Ppeh had a ridiculous complex explanation of this ( cut two slits in duct tape and feed a wire tie through it ) etc, also says the Betty video shows how to do this..took me forever to find the Betty video and it doesn't say anything about this . Shouldn't you just tape the tube inside the bag 5-8 cm from ththe bottom and that be totally fine ?this shouldn't matter much I feel?

3.the use of micropore tape. I feel it sticks pretty well…but duct tape and packing tape seem to stick way better ..is there a reason other than sticking power that these tapes aren't used?

4. Failures.. and why they happen. If the nitrogen is tested,40 cf tank, max dog regulator at 15 lpm, turkey exit bag made correctly , bag filled up till it's like a balloon on forehead, rapid hyper breathing for 2 minutes, huge exhale even longer than you usually exhale , then biggest breath you can possibly take , sitting upright in a chair , tank strapped down so it won't fall, this shouldn't fail right?
I think maybe people don't take a big enough breath and it takes longer to blackout and they get SI ?
For something such heavily advocated in th community , I see an awful lot of failure stories , some horror stories with the brain damage . I understand there's failure with any method and it's just about finding one you're comfortable with to do nature best chance

5. Is it a good practice to follow the procedure , and if you don't pass out in a breath or two than bail on the attempt ? This thinking I feel will help my SI restrictions possibly. Or is this not recommended ? I've seen people say you don't get brain damage unless you pass out , and the attempt is subsequently botched for other reasons

There are no failures with Nitrogen if done with an EEBD Hood--I just did a retest with my pulse Oximeter, and my O2 level plummeted from 97 to 40 after just 6 breaths(ten second delay)--If I had taken a few more breaths, i wouldn't be here anymore

 

[limeoctave]

Ok, i did another test with my Nitrogen Tank and the EEBD Hood--After 5 or 6 breaths at 25 LPM, my O2 level dropped from 97 to 80, I then felt a little faint, took the EEBD Hood off--In the next 10 seconds, my O2 Level dropped all the way to 40!--Nitrogen really eliminates Oxygen in the body quite quickly and effectively

There are no failures with Nitrogen if done with an EEBD Hood--I just did a retest with my pulse Oximeter, and my O2 level plummeted from 97 to 40 after just 6 breaths(ten second delay)--If I had taken a few more breaths, i wouldn't be here anymore

thank you for sharing, it's so fast

do you know approximately how long it took? i mean first 5-6 breaths

 

[outrider567]

ok… new member longtime suicide venturer but I have ridiculous SI , huge fear of failure and being vegetable because I do not trust anything in life especially after how it's gone . To wimpy for firearms but might go this route because less chance of SI ruining the attempt , but it's freaking tough to do. Prob got mentally closest with shotgun method , Nembutal owner but can't figure out the exit test kits, never works, and my brain is fucked and doesn't metabolize drugs correctly and I get horrendous unspeakable reactions from this drug class ( gaba agonists ) . Anyway…the exit bag method

I've had a 20 cf nitrogen tank for a few years , made several exit bags , different elastics , headband , I pull it over my head most nights to try and get used to it , never started the gas though. After reading through the thread I decided to get a 40 cf , starting to feel a little better about it because gas running out was a large fear. My questions are

1. Size of the chord..I cannot find a toggle large enough for the half inch elastic recommend …anywhere ..tried hard… I have pretty small elastic( less than the recommended 5/8 inch), but this shouldn't really matter right ? As long as not too tight and not too lose , you should be able to slip a finger under it , it should be fine ? This doesn't seem to be a main source of failure but want to make sure

2. Gone crazy with the step of taping the tubing to the bag. Ppeh had a ridiculous complex explanation of this ( cut two slits in duct tape and feed a wire tie through it ) etc, also says the Betty video shows how to do this..took me forever to find the Betty video and it doesn't say anything about this . Shouldn't you just tape the tube inside the bag 5-8 cm from ththe bottom and that be totally fine ?this shouldn't matter much I feel?

3.the use of micropore tape. I feel it sticks pretty well…but duct tape and packing tape seem to stick way better ..is there a reason other than sticking power that these tapes aren't used?

4. Failures.. and why they happen. If the nitrogen is tested,40 cf tank, max dog regulator at 15 lpm, turkey exit bag made correctly , bag filled up till it's like a balloon on forehead, rapid hyper breathing for 2 minutes, huge exhale even longer than you usually exhale , then biggest breath you can possibly take , sitting upright in a chair , tank strapped down so it won't fall, this shouldn't fail right?
I think maybe people don't take a big enough breath and it takes longer to blackout and they get SI ?
For something such heavily advocated in th community , I see an awful lot of failure stories , some horror stories with the brain damage . I understand there's failure with any method and it's just about finding one you're comfortable with to do nature best chance

5. Is it a good practice to follow the procedure , and if you don't pass out in a breath or two than bail on the attempt ? This thinking I feel will help my SI restrictions possibly. Or is this not recommended ? I've seen people say you don't get brain damage unless you pass out , and the attempt is subsequently botched for other reasons

There are no failures with Nitrogen if done with an EEBD Hood--I just did a retest with my pulse Oximeter, and my O2 level plummeted from 97 to 40 after just 6 breaths(ten second delay)--If I had taken a few more breaths, i wouldn't be here anymore

thank you for sharing, it's so fast

do you know approximately how long it took? i mean first 5-6 breaths

30 seconds or less I think

 

[limeoctave]

does anyone know if Drager Saver CF is suitable for the EEBD method?

i just remember that someone wrote here that there were problems with some eebd hood model

 

[Authentic13]

I agree with Shewaitsforme: you would have a difficult time reducing the available O2 in such a large, gas-permeable space. Technically yes, you could do it, but it would take a lot of N2 and careful preparation of the car.

Don't confuse inert gas asphyxiation (IGA) with CO poisoning. They work through completely different mechanisms.

With IGA you are displacing O2 from your environment, thus depriving your body of necessary O2, while flushing away the CO2 that would trigger your body's hypercapnic alarm and cause involuntary self-preservation. To effectively displace the O2, you need a controlled environment from which the O2 can first be flushed and then excluded. So first you need to get rid of all the air, then you need to keep out any further air, then you need to flush away your exhaled CO2. The smaller the space, and the more readily the space is sealed, the easier this is to accomplish.

When you put an exit bag over your head, you are creating a low-O2 environment. The CO2 is flushed away by the constant flow of inert gas, preventing alarm, and you are allowing your body to use up whatever O2 it has in its bloodstream while not providing it any more.

Short version: The O2 in your body runs out and isn't replaced.

With CO poisoning, you aren't displacing air/O2 from the environment; you are introducing into the environment a molecule (CO) which binds more readily to your blood than O2 does. You're providing your haemoglobin with an easier alternative than O2; your body grabs the CO and ignores the O2. Since your blood can only carry so many gas molecules at a time, with the CO taking up all the room in your bloodstream your body is starved of O2.

When you climb into your car with a barbecue that's putting out CO, there's still plenty of O2 in the car's environment. You're not excluding the O2 as you need to do with IGA --replacing the air with a completely different gas-- you're adding to the existing air a new substance (CO) that your body prefers to O2. This preferential-molecule process makes it much simpler to manage the environment on a large scale. You don't need to get rid of the O2, you just need to provide enough CO to take up all the space for O2 in your bloodstream.

Short version: The O2 available to your body is ignored in favor of CO.

Extremely helpful! I am/was considering a method that wouldn't purge CO2 from the bag and if I'm readinf corrwctly, it appears that my SI would be triggered involuntarily even if asleep or unconscious, correct?

 

[limeoctave]

Extremely helpful! I am/was considering a method that wouldn't purge CO2 from the bag and if I'm readinf corrwctly, it appears that my SI would be triggered involuntarily even if asleep or unconscious, correct?

i guess so, it's not even SI, it's more hypercapnia i guess

 

[Authentic13]

No, don't try to turn your car into a N2 tent; it will take too much N2 to fill the car and adequately displace the air. The reason a bag is used is to create a small space for the N2 to adequately fill.

Unless you have a very large supply of N2, and an air-tight car, turning your car into a super-sized exit bag won't work.

There are conflicting accounts. A few say that some people have tried to remove the eb once they fall unconscious. Most say that people do not try to tear the bag away. I personally believe I (and you) will not claw the bag away.

Many accounts report some "twitching" after falling unconscious, which I can believe: the fading electrical activity of a dying brain can cause minor spasms. This is why it's better to position yourself so that if this twitching causes you to slump over, any unconscious rubbing your head against the wall won't displace the bag. Likewise, you don't want to being lying down for the same reason: the twitching could make you rub your head against the pillow hard enough to displace the bag.

My speculation --and this is entirely speculation!-- is that the accounts of convulsions and trying to tear the bag away come from three things:

1) Pro-lifers trying to slander a peaceful way to ctb and deter those who would try it.

2) Poorly constructed or poorly managed apparatus leading to inadequate flushing of CO2 from the exit bag, which causes the person's hypercapnic alarm to trip --which does lead to them trying to claw their way out of the bag. This is why a flow of 15Lpm, and an elastic drawcord to allow the CO2 to be flushed, is so important.

3) People trying to ctb by suffocating themselves with a bag alone, not using inert gas. I have come across accounts where early exit bags were used without inert gas: the person attempting to ctb would take a heavy dose of sedatives and then don the exit bag just as they would if they were using inert gas. They would hold the bag open with their hands, working against the elastic drawcord, so that when the sedatives took effect and they fell unconscious, their hands would fall away and the elastic would close off the bag around their face. They would then suffocate while under sedation. Theoretically the sedation would overcome the hypercapnic alarm and allow them to suffocate, but I can see how misjudging the dose of sedative could easily lead to failure when they were not unconscious enough to prevent themselves from tearing away the bag.

3) is precisely what I was/am afraid of with my method . Shoot! Thanks for the extremely helpful info! Back to the drawing board for me it seems.

 

[limeoctave]

i guess so, it's not even SI, it's more hypercapnia i guess

i also heard about cases, when people pulled of their bags, when being unconscious, but I'm not sure, please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Authentic13]

i guess so, it's not even SI, it's more hypercapnia i guess

Yes, whatever we call it, it appears to be a reflex action that is likely ro happen even if under the influence of enough intoxicants to put me out initially. This doing away with oneself in a relatively painless and less traumatic for loved ones is a major chore! Thanks for the response.