Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[needout]

Thanks guys ,you seem to have some experience with eebd hoods,the white disc is actually pretty solid,I removed it ,it definitely seems to be some type of restriction device,this type of hood is designed to plug into the firefighters own air supply and give a reduced flow to the survivor,but not compromised the firefighter own supplies of air from his tank ,bloody complicated!is it really wise to do a black out test what ever that is or just connect up the argon via my regulator and go for it?I have no oxygen meter to test level inside the hood, sorry for the questions,but desperate to get on with the CBT

 

[Tears in Rain]

!is it really wise to do a black out test what ever that is or just connect up the argon via my regulator and go for it?I have no oxygen meter to test level inside the hood, sorry for the questions,but desperate to get on with the CBT

There's probably no need to do a blackout test if you're confident the inert gas purity is high:

There is no need to do any blackout tests as long as you test the purity of the gas or buy the cylinder from an extremely reputable supplier that provides a certificate of purity.

If you want to do a blackout test you can use a SCUBA setup with a negative pressure demand valve (when you faint the mask will fall and air respiration will be restored) or fill a Mylar Balloon and inhale from it.​

I guess the pulse oximeter hooked up to your finger(as opposed to an oxygen sensor hooked up to the gas regulator) is handy for checking that your O2 levels are falling if you test the hood:

Whether using an EEBD Hood, SCBA mask, or exit bag, Nitrogen is a painless death, you just pass out in less than a minute--My test with the Oximeter showed my Oxygen level drop from 98 to 46 after just 5 or 6 breaths(ten seconds delay) of Nitrogen using the EEBD Hood, Nitrogen rapidly replaces Oxygen in your body--See the Inert Gas Mega Thread for more info

It's up to yourself whether you want to do any tests or not.

 

[needout]

There's probably no need to do a blackout test if you're confident the inert gas purity is high:


I guess the pulse oximeter hooked up to your finger(as opposed to an oxygen sensor hooked up to the gas regulator) is handy for checking that your O2 levels are falling if you test the hood:


It's up to yourself whether you want to do any tests or not.

I'm getting the pure argon from welding supplies shop,purity I hope should be good,I have said it's forTIG wielding and not a argon mix.i guess I should test it ,I suppose my eagerness to get this over with is making me cut corners which could cause a dangerously failure and ending up a vegetable .im also concerned about the high flow of the recommendations of 25lpm of argon going into the hood and really not escaping enough,it's quite a tight neck seal but as people's have said the force of the nitrogen should force out through the neoprene neck seal,the hose is now modified from its flow restricted insert,I drilled it out from 1mm to 4.5 mm to allow the higher 25lpm flow rate,i also removed the solid white insert from inside the hose to hood attachment so no reduced pressure onto the hood ,any of you guys had any attempts or problems with this method,im a heavy vaper ,very heavy which people have said may be a problem

I'm getting the pure argon from welding supplies shop,purity I hope should be good,I have said it's forTIG wielding and not a argon mix.i guess I should test it ,I suppose my eagerness to get this over with is making me cut corners which could cause a dangerously failure and ending up a vegetable .im also concerned about the high flow of the recommendations of 25lpm of argon going into the hood and really not escaping enough,it's quite a tight neck seal but as people's have said the force of the nitrogen should force out through the neoprene neck seal,the hose is now modified from its flow restricted insert,I drilled it out from 1mm to 4.5 mm to allow the higher 25lpm flow rate,i also removed the solid white insert from inside the hose to hood attachment so no reduced pressure onto the hood ,any of you guys had any attempts or problems with this method,im a heavy vaper ,very heavy which people have said may be a problem

Forgot to ask,what would be the minimum purity of argon be ?

 

[Tears in Rain]

im also concerned about the high flow of the recommendations of 25lpm of argon going into the hood and really not escaping enough,it's quite a tight neck seal but as people's have said the force of the nitrogen should force out through the neoprene neck seal

Those hoods are designed for a high flow rate, something like 40LPM. I wouldn't worry about 25 LPM going into the hood.

,the hose is now modified from its flow restricted insert,I drilled it out from 1mm to 4.5 mm to allow the higher 25lpm flow rate,i also removed the solid white insert from inside the hose to hood attachment so no reduced pressure onto the hood ,any of you guys had any attempts or problems with this method,im a heavy vaper ,very heavy which people have said may be a problem

Like I said, those things usually have a flowrate of 40LPM, to keep a person alive for ~15 mins. I wouldn't worry about 25LPM flowrate getting into the hood.

Forgot to ask,what would be the minimum purity of argon be ?

It's advised to use minimum 98% purity with the inert gases.

Nope, you have to pre-fill first, otherwise the time to loss of consciousness will be massively increased.

With the EEBD hood the process would be:
1. Pre-fill hood (holding it atop the head).
2. Take a deep breath of air.
3. Insert head into the hood.
4. Adjust the inner mask on the face.
5. Exhale fully.
6. Take a deep breath of Nitrogen.

There is no need to hyperventilate and pre-exhale like with the ExitBag because the EEBD hood has an exhalation valve.

 

[grahf]

so you have an example: I will CTB today using this method. If I don't show up again, it works.

Sorry may I ask if you are failed or maybe I don't know

 

[winterparty]

No I didn't do it.

 

[thegoldengirls]

Have you thought of not only doing 1 method, but 2 or even 3 as back-ups? Like drining SN right before you pull the hood over your head?
PM me for one extra method (physical & timed mechanism [for conce you're unconscious & as a back-up]) that I recently "invented", that's not out there yet (as far as I know). It's basically: a construction for timed partial hang!ng. I think ctb not only by chemical method(s) would give me some sort of peace & trust in that I'm prepared even if one fails. Chemical methods sometimes seem a bit unpredictable to me (since you can't just directly see how it' happening, other than when it's physical).

Remember: mental prep is super important too. Vividly visualize & go though each step mentally regularly. Also: recent studies have shown that self control can get "used up" and self control and 'awareness of internal conflict' (in this case: being aware of how much you want to ctb & how much you "want" to take off the hood again) are "the same thing" - here the info source (by Healthy Gamer GG).
Maybe you can even hancuff yourself once the hood is over. Until you've brought yourself to handcuff yourself, you might already have passed out.

I think I will solely stick into this method. I devoted so much time in the nitrogen exit bag, I feel it in my heart it will be effective. My only thing is getting over survival instinct.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Some people were wondering if they could lie down with the exit bag/hood method. The PPH and others seem to say not to lie down. But I guess you could if your neck and head were reclining:

Depends on your setup, for the homemade ExitBag, is better not to lay horizontally, for SCBA the position is irrelevant.
I'm not gonna lie down horizontally because I have some sleep apnea.

How about for EEBD hood?

The EEBD hood shouldn't have problems either coz it also has exhalation valves.
Reclining should be a bit better in all cases coz the CO₂ will pass easier thru the valve.

 

[thegoldengirls]

A little update.
I'm feeling slightly discouraged. I attempted my Nitrogen exit bag method today but failed because I think the heavy regulator tubing I have taped inside the bag is just too dense and is probably weighing down the bag even though the bag does inflate. But it inflates slowly.

After pulling down the bag, I panicked after three breathes, and after seeing that my oxygen was not plummeting as quickly as I would have liked.
Tomorrow, I will switch out the heavy regulator tubing to the plastic tubing. I just need to purchase a pvc tubing size that accommodates the gas outlet...or I just might wing it and duck tape the medical tubing I already have from work to it.

It's definitely a must having backup gas because sometimes attempts might not go as smoothly as imagined, and that's not counting practice runs. So, I'm thankful to have the two gas cylinders because I feel like I already wasted at least 10-15 minutes worth of gas already.
One thing I learned is that ctb attempts can be very draining. I get so tired afterwards.
Building up the courage to attempt is one thing and requires energy and willpower.
Then I finally attempt, and fail because I'm not unconscious as quickly as I want, hence the panick feeling and taking the bag off. So, I just feel disappointment right after.
Then I feel like I don't have the energy to try until the next day because with failed attempts comes the additional work of troubleshooting; trying to figure out what I did wrong so that I could fix until I attempt again. So, days gets wasted as well.
Not saying this method is ineffective, just more than likely something I'm doing wrong. At least I know it's probably the tubing that maybe causing issues. At this point I invested quite a bit into this method, including taking days off of work, so, I still have hope.

 

[thewalkingdread]

After pulling down the bag, I panicked after three breathes, and after seeing that my oxygen was not plummeting as quickly as I would have liked.

It may take more than 3 breaths to go unconscious... I did a test a while ago, and I only started to feel really light headed in about 4 breaths.

Doing tests with the bag is risky...

Therefore, in my test, I filled the bag and took breaths from a second tube, as If It were a straw... It's clumsy but safer that way...

 

[color_me_gone]

It's definitely a must having backup gas because sometimes attempts might not go as smoothly as imagined, and that's not counting practice runs. So, some gas gets wasted.

Yes! This is a point that TiredHorse (the originator of this megathread) pointed out near the beginning of this thread.

After pulling down the bag, I panicked after three breathes and after seeing that my oxygen was not plummeting as quickly as I would have liked, so I aborted mission.

The speed at which one becomes unconscious was a selling point of this method, for me.
I became disheartened when TiredHorse failed several attempt due to lack of speed to become unconscious.
Then several others experienced the same problem.
It is difficult to fight your SI when things don't go as expected.

Building up the courage to attempt is one thing. Then I finally attempt, and fail because I'm not unconscious as quickly as I want, hence the panick feeling and taking the bag off.

Same scenario as TiredHorse and others.

Then I feel like I don't have the energy to try until the next day

Fighting SI is the most exhausting experience the human body can be subjected to.

Not saying this method is ineffective

Agree, people have been successful, as pubic media has documented, and we have seen here.

just more than likely something I'm doing wrong

I have a hunch that how fast you become unconscious is related to how deeply you exhale before inhaling the gas.
I suggest practicing deep exhaling and deep inhaling in normal atmosphere.
No need to waste inert gas on this.
When exhaling, when you think you can't exhale any further, force yourself to exhale some more.
You'd be surprised that you can still exhale some more.
Follow the same during the inhaling, as well.
This practice will help you become familiar with what you can and can't do
It will help you increase the volumes output and input.

Also, be sure the bag has no leaks and is completely purged of oxygen before pulling down over your head.

 

[thot88]

I tested a balloon home helium package with a Cy-12c meter. The source claimed on its website that it is 99% helium and not 80% helium and 20% air.

I did the test outside and the meter first showed 027% and when I pushed the sensor into the gas outlet hole and turned the gas to flow, the reading dropped to 001%.

Is this helium suitable for exit?

 

[Onomatopoeia]

I tested a balloon home helium package with a Cy-12c meter. The source claimed on its website that it is 99% helium and not 80% helium and 20% air.

I did the test outside and the meter first showed 027% and when I pushed the sensor into the gas outlet hole and turned the gas to flow, the reading dropped to 001%.

Is this helium suitable for exit?

I cannot tell you yes or no on this. But I found this interesting case study of a teenage girl who committed suicide with an exit bag and helium. The autopsy found 20% helium in her throat and 12% in her right lung vs. 11% oxygen in her throat and 9% in her right lung. Typically the "sweet spot" to die quickly and peacefully from inert gas is 6% oxygen or less. According to the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration, cessation of breathing and cardiac standstill "occur immediately" at 6% or less oxygen.

Compare the helium/exit bag suicide to this guy, who used the SCUBA and nitrogen method:

Right lung: nitrogen—91.0%, oxygen—8.51%
carbon oxide—0.49%.

Left lung: nitrogen—94.7%, oxygen—4.71%, carbon
oxide—0.59%.

He likely lost consciousness after 2-3 breaths vs. like 8-10 breaths for the girl. We already breath 78% nitrogen in regular air, so we're accustomed to it somewhat and our bodies aren't really shocked when there's more. We just die. Regular air is like .0005% helium. So perhaps, and again don't take my word for it, the mere presence of 12-20% helium appears to be enough for death since regular air is around 20% oxygen. So that 12% to 20% helium has to displaced the two main gases (nitrogen and oxygen). Both nitrogen and helium are inert, so those cancel out. The helium must drop oxygen levels to AT LEAST below 9%. She was at 9-11% oxygen, and died.

But the case study also indicated that helium disappears really fast and advanced autopsy tools must be used to get accurate measures of helium levels, and relatively fast after death.

In sum, I personally would not use helium that is less than 99% pure. But I guess the key is...if you get 80% helium, what is the other 20%? If it's carbon dioxide, you definitely do not want it. If it's nitrogen or argon, then I see no reason why that wouldn't work. It's a hard no for any helium advertised for blowing up balloons.

 

[Kapsyl]

In sum, I personally would not use helium that is less than 99% pure. But I guess the key is...if you get 80% helium, what is the other 20%? If it's carbon dioxide, you definitely do not want it. If it's nitrogen or argon, then I see no reason why that wouldn't work. It's a hard no for any helium advertised for blowing up balloons.

Ballon time helium which is located in Ohio and made in the USA with global components, one of the more popular brand on amazon i believe. They have the mixture of at least 80% helium and the other 20% air

This is what i found on the manufacturer page


The lower CAS number is ordinary air.

 

[needout]

I'm currently trying to switch from argon to nitrogen,I think I'd feel more comfortable with it reading more info into it,I'd still like to use my argon regulator with it's dial type pressure gauge and flow meter,but the questions I keep reading is the conversation of flow rates and the two opposites views,some say I need to set the flow meter less on the argon guage to allow for nitrogen being lighter and others say it needs to be increased,the difference between the 2 views is substantial,15lpm argon setting is equal to 20lpm of nitrogen and others have said 20lpm argon is equal to 14lpm of nitrogen,im using a hood so I'd probably require 15lpm or more of nitrogen, definitive answer would be most appreciated

 

[winterparty]

@needout A user here @Vizzy supposedly used 25LPM with nitrogen to CTB.


So to retest the connections I've used soap water without a nebulizer. Is that even as effective as using leak spray? There were no bubbles but the whole thing was a mess. I regret doing it this way but my spray wasn't available, a nebulizer wasn't available. What's the worst thing that can happen after a few months. Should I test it again with my leak spray?

 

[Tears in Rain]

I'm currently trying to switch from argon to nitrogen,I think I'd feel more comfortable with it reading more info into it,I'd still like to use my argon regulator with it's dial type pressure gauge and flow meter,but the questions I keep reading is the conversation of flow rates and the two opposites views,some say I need to set the flow meter less on the argon guage to allow for nitrogen being lighter and others say it needs to be increased,the difference between the 2 views is substantial,15lpm argon setting is equal to 20lpm of nitrogen and others have said 20lpm argon is equal to 14lpm of nitrogen,im using a hood so I'd probably require 15lpm or more of nitrogen, definitive answer would be most appreciated

I think there was a bit of confusion before, from previous posts I read, about the conversion rate for using nitrogen with an argon flowmeter. But it seemed eventually people settled on the conversion rate of 1.19. You multiply the argon regulator litres per minute(LPM) reading by 1.19 to give the actual nitrogen flowrate.
So:
- 12.5LPM on argon flowmeter gives ~15litres LPM nitrogen flow
- 15LPM on argon flowmeter gives ~ 18LPM nitrogen flow
- 20 LPM on argon flowmeter gives ~ 24 LPM nitrogen flow

Or do the opposite, and multiply the nitrogen flowrate you want by 0.84, to give the argon regulator rate you need to set.
E.g. -15(LPM nitrogen flowrate you want) * 0.84 = ~12.5 (argon LPM regulator setting).
- 25(LPM nitrogen flowrate you want) * 0.84 = ~ 21(argon LPM regulator setting).
Etc.

Here's the conversion chart people previously used.


They give an example, using helium with an argon flowmeter. The website used standard cubic feet per hour (SCFH). It's the same conversion for litres per minute (LPM).
Their final result should say 'Actual Helium Flow', not 'Actual Argon Flow'. That was a mistake on their part:

Can you accurately flow a different gas through a flow control device not calibrated for the same gas?

www.harrisproductsgroup.com

If you're still worried about it, then you may be more comfortable using a nitrogen regulator with nitrogen. You have 3 options:
1)Nitrogen regulator with floating ball flowmeter(Litres per minute (LPM) or Standard cubic feet per hour (SCFH), which can be converted to LPM:



2)Nitrogen regulator with litres per minute gauge:


3)Nitrogen click-style regulator:

 

[thegoldengirls]

@needout A user here @Vizzy supposedly used 25LPM with nitrogen to CTB.


So to retest the connections I've used soap water without a nebulizer. Is that even as effective as using leak spray? There were no bubbles but the whole thing was a mess. I regret doing it this way but my spray wasn't available, a nebulizer wasn't available. What's the worst thing that can happen after a few months. Should I test it again with my leak spray?

I've attempted two-three times so far, (exit bag:Nitrogen) and each time I panicked after about 10 seconds.
So, I've been considering increasing the flowmeter to 25 instead of the recommended 15. And instead of using one cylinder, I may tape two tubings to the exit bag while using the two cylinders I already have.
My plan sounds discombobulated, but I'm kind of desperate and might give that a shot today. My only fear is wasting even more gas by upping to 25 lpm if I still end up panicked and aborting attempt.
The other option is to upgrade to scba, but it's all so expensive, I don't know if I'd be able to afford that. If I knew scba was guaranteed to work, I'd put it on a credit card.
I've been studying that scba thread and all of the info is overwhelming but in the meantime, I'll continue to look that thread over just in case.

A positive note, Yesterday, I didn't even make no real attempts, it was more troubleshooting, with making sure the bag has no holes.


Perhaps @Tears in Rain can answer this question when they are available. Does anyone know what's the maximum time that people normally go unconscious?
I know everyone is different, but if I can just condition myself to keep the bag on for that amount of time, I should be successful.
Pardon my rambling to everyone, I'm just slightly anxious today and do not want my posts to be triggering to anyone that this method is not a good one. The evidence says this is a good method.

 

[needout]

I'm currently trying to switch from argon to nitrogen,I think I'd feel more comfortable with it reading more info into it,I'd still like to use my argon regulator with it's dial type pressure gauge and flow meter,but the questions I keep reading is the conversation of flow rates and the two opposites views,some say I need to set the flow meter less on the argon guage to allow for nitrogen being lighter and others say it needs to be increased,the difference between the 2 views is substantial,15lpm argon setting is equal to 20lpm of nitrogen and others have said 20lpm argon is equal to 14lpm of nitrogen,im using a hood so I'd probably require 15lpm or more of nitrogen, definitive answer would be most appreciated

I think there was a bit of confusion before, from previous posts I read, about the conversion rate for using nitrogen with an argon flowmeter. But it seemed eventually people settled on the conversion rate of 1.19. You multiply the argon regulator litres per minute(LPM) reading by 1.19 to give the actual nitrogen flowrate.
So:
- 12.5LPM on argon flowmeter gives ~15litres LPM nitrogen flow
- 15LPM on argon flowmeter gives ~ 18LPM nitrogen flow
- 20 LPM on argon flowmeter gives ~ 24 LPM nitrogen flow

Or do the opposite, and multiply the nitrogen flowrate you want by 0.84, to give the argon regulator rate you need to set.
E.g. -15(LPM nitrogen flowrate you want) * 0.84 = ~12.5 (argon LPM regulator setting).
- 25(LPM nitrogen flowrate you want) * 0.84 = ~ 21(argon LPM regulator setting).
Etc.

Here's the conversion chart people previously used.

View attachment 131926

They give an example, using helium with an argon flowmeter. The website used standard cubic feet per hour (SCFH). It's the same conversion for litres per minute (LPM).
Their final result should say 'Actual Helium Flow', not 'Actual Argon Flow'. That was a mistake on their part:

View attachment 131927


If you're still worried about it, then you may be more comfortable using a nitrogen regulator with nitrogen. You have 3 options:
1)Nitrogen regulator with floating ball flowmeter(Litres per minute (LPM) or Standard cubic feet per hour (SCFH), which can be converted to LPM:

View attachment 131930

2)Nitrogen regulator with litres per minute gauge:
View attachment 131931

3)Nitrogen click-style regulator:
View attachment 131933

Thanks, hopefully that's it cleared up!well done for the time taken to sort this.
Vizzy used an eebd hood I read from his set up,not sure if he went for 15 or 25 lpm nitrogen,but I know he used a argon flow meter/regulator according to the photo.

 

[Tears in Rain]

@needout A user here @Vizzy supposedly used 25LPM with nitrogen to CTB.


So to retest the connections I've used soap water without a nebulizer. Is that even as effective as using leak spray? There were no bubbles but the whole thing was a mess. I regret doing it this way but my spray wasn't available, a nebulizer wasn't available. What's the worst thing that can happen after a few months. Should I test it again with my leak spray?

It doesn't really matter how you put the soapy water on the connections to check for leaks, I guess some people found it less messy using a spray bottle. Once there's no bubbles showing after the soapy water is put on, then there's no gas leaking out.

I've attempted two-three times so far, (exit bag:Nitrogen) and each time I panicked after about 10 seconds.
So, I've been considering increasing the flowmeter to 25 instead of the recommended 15. And instead of using one cylinder, I may tape two tubings to the exit bag while using the two cylinders I already have.
My plan sounds discombobulated, but I'm kind of desperate and might give that a shot today. My only fear is wasting even more gas by upping to 25 lpm if I still end up panicked and aborting attempt.

Hi @thegoldengirls,

Yeah, S.I. can be a tough nut to crack for most people. One of the reasons people don't go for the inert gas method is due to the length of time waiting to go unconscious after pulling down the bag/hood/mask.

From what I've seen posted here, it can take about 30-60 seconds to go unconscious with the exit bag or hood. Maybe about 15 seconds with a SCBA or SCUBA mask.

I get it, 30-60 seconds can seem a long time if S.I. starts kicking in. One poster a few months back, @DyingToDie123, was only able to get to about 15-20 seconds before ripping off their hood:

I tried this today, felt MUCH much better, no panic response at all, actually felt like breathing normal air. I think I made it 15-20 seconds this time (I took 8 relatively slow breaths) and I know it was pure SI that got in the way. No effects though so I think I'm far from blackout. I don't think I'm in the right mindset for it today so just gotta save it for a day where I'm really feeling it.

I have everything I need to ctb, I literally just need to relax for 30 seconds and do it, but SI gets in the way, I think exacerbated by the upcoming holiday and the feeling of guilt about my parents expecting me to be home and what not. It's a stupid reason but it's enough to get in the way.

I cried the whole 7 hour drive home to my parents' place yesterday because I kept thinking I should have done it by now, I shouldn't have made it this far, I'm such a wimp for surviving this long. I don't even want to do the whole holiday thing, that's not why I'm here. I don't know why I'm still here, frankly, other than that I'm too afraid to kill myself, and I hate it.

The other option is to upgrade to scba, but it's all so expensive, I don't know if I'd be able to afford that. If I knew scba was guaranteed to work, I'd put it on a credit card.
I've been studying that scba thread and all of the info is overwhelming but in the meantime, I'll continue to look that thread over just in case.

SCBA/SCUBA might reduce the time down to maybe 15 seconds, based on what a couple of people said after doing blackout tests. But like you said, they're expensive set-ups.

SCUBA blackout test.

SCBA blackout test.

Does anyone know what's the maximum time that people normally go unconscious?
I know everyone is different, but if I can just condition myself to keep the bag on for that amount of time, I should be successful.

You might have seen a study paper, previously linked here, done on a helium trial by the Swiss assisted dying organisation Dignitas. They normally use Nembutal for their assisted dying patients, but once trialled helium hooked up to oxygen masks on 5 volunteers. The patients took 36-55 seconds to go unconscious.
(One took a lot longer to die than the others- this was put down to the oxygen mask not being a tigh enough seal).
This table from that study gives you an idea of the length of time to loss of consciousness with inert gas:

Pardon my rambling to everyone, I'm just slightly anxious today and do not want my posts to be triggering to anyone that this method is not a good one. The evidence says this is a good method.

Your anxiety is perfectly normal.
No matter what method you choose, the S.I. could be hard to beat. S.I. has prevented people from pulling a trigger on a gun.

If the wait with the bag on your head proves too much for you, then other methods like SN may be more suitable.

Ultimately, to get over S.I. you have to be desperate enough to ctb. You have to be truly at peace with leaving this world.

 

[Kapsyl]

Your anxiety is perfectly normal.
No matter what method you choose, the S.I. could be hard to beat. S.I. has prevented people from pulling a trigger on a gun.

If the wait with the bag on your head proves too much for you, then other methods like SN may be more suitable.

Ultimately, to get over S.I. you have to be desperate enough to ctb. You have to be truly at peace with leaving this world.

This is a hard variabel to measure but I wonder what's the harder way, one decisive pull of the trigger which is quite final. Or something which offers a way out even if it's only for 20-60 seconds. One could argue that an individual who has even the slightest of doubt, which most people will experience because of SI will have problem with pulling the trigger.

Inert gas give somewhat of a buffer were after putting on the mask/bag/hood the only active decision you will have to make is either remove it or succumb to unconsciousness.

You might have seen a study paper, previously linked here, done on a helium trial by the Swiss assisted dying organisation Dignitas. They normally use Nembutal for their assisted dying patients, but once trialled helium hooked up to oxygen masks on 5 volunteers. The patients took 36-55 seconds to go unconscious.

This study is really informative, I have seen the statistics of the time to unconsciousness but never read the whole study, thanks for the source.

The fact they a use oxygen mask is especially interesting part for me.

 

[Tears in Rain]

, I have seen the statistics of the time to unconsciousness but never read the whole study, thanks for the source.

The fact they a use oxygen mask is especially interesting part for me.

No problem.
Yes, they used oxygen masks. But as you'll see from the study, while 4 out of the 5 people died in 5-10 mins, one took about 40 mins. They believe this was due to the oxygen mask not creating a tight enough seal. The mask could not be adjusted by anyone apart from the 5 people themselves.

This is why it is advised not to use oxygen masks, because they don't provide a perfect seal. But they obviously can work.

 

[Kapsyl]

No problem.
Yes, they used oxygen masks. But as you'll see from the study, while 4 out of the 5 people died in 5-10 mins, one took about 40 mins. They believe this was due to the oxygen mask not creating a tight enough seal. The mask could not be adjusted by anyone apart from the 5 people themselves.

This is why it is advised not to use oxygen masks, because they don't provide a perfect seal. But they obviously can work.

That's why it's so intriguing! Those oxygen mask which is portrayed in the study are not designed for 100% air seal. If a badly suited mask works for 4/5 in the study, a better mask designed for the task would certainly be more effective.

Their mask use a reservoir bag in front of the mask similar to me setup, their failure is the air seal. I also suspect the bad air seal is to combat overpressure issues.

Its comforting to see a similar setup work so efficiently.

 

[thewalkingdread]

The patients took 36-55 seconds to go unconscious.

I think this is a reasonable estimate. The testing I've done suggests this is an accurate time frame.

Your anxiety is perfectly normal.
No matter what method you choose, the S.I. could be hard to beat. S.I. has prevented people from pulling a trigger on a gun.

If the wait with the bag on your head proves too much for you, then other methods like SN may be more suitable.

I don't understand much about the SN method but I think If one can't wait for 30-60 seconds in order to black out with inert gas, then it will be harder to wait for 10 minutes after ingesting SN...

SI is a bitch to overcome, no matter what's the method. Granted that in some methods it will be harder than others...

Ultimately, to get over S.I. you have to be desperate enough to ctb. You have to be truly at peace with leaving this world.

Yes. This is true. I don't believe people really "want" to die... Afterall, dying is not considered to be a joyful experience by most people...

It's just so happens that — for whatever reasons! — one's will to not continue living anymore finally wins.

 

[outrider567]

A little update.
I'm feeling slightly discouraged. I attempted my Nitrogen exit bag method today but failed because I think the heavy regulator tubing I have taped inside the bag is just too dense and is probably weighing down the bag even though the bag does inflate. But it inflates slowly.

After pulling down the bag, I panicked after three breathes, and after seeing that my oxygen was not plummeting as quickly as I would have liked.
Tomorrow, I will switch out the heavy regulator tubing to the plastic tubing. I just need to purchase a pvc tubing size that accommodates the gas outlet...or I just might wing it and duck tape the medical tubing I already have from work to it.

It's definitely a must having backup gas because sometimes attempts might not go as smoothly as imagined, and that's not counting practice runs. So, I'm thankful to have the two gas cylinders because I feel like I already wasted at least 10-15 minutes worth of gas already.
One thing I learned is that ctb attempts can be very draining. I get so tired afterwards.
Building up the courage to attempt is one thing and requires energy and willpower.
Then I finally attempt, and fail because I'm not unconscious as quickly as I want, hence the panick feeling and taking the bag off. So, I just feel disappointment right after.
Then I feel like I don't have the energy to try until the next day because with failed attempts comes the additional work of troubleshooting; trying to figure out what I did wrong so that I could fix until I attempt again. So, days gets wasted as well.
Not saying this method is ineffective, just more than likely something I'm doing wrong. At least I know it's probably the tubing that maybe causing issues. At this point I invested quite a bit into this method, including taking days off of work, so, I still have hope.

'Your oxygen level was not plummeting as you would like' remember that there is a ten second delay--I took my Hood off when I saw my Oxygen level drop to 80(after about 4 or 5 breaths, 20 seconds), but it continued to drop all the way down to 46 before rapidly recovering

 

[thegoldengirls]

That's why it's so intriguing! Those oxygen mask which is portrayed in the study are not designed for 100% air seal. If a badly suited mask works for 4/5 in the study, a better mask designed for the task would certainly be more effective.

Their mask use a reservoir bag in front of the mask similar to me setup, their failure is the air seal. I also suspect the bad air seal is to combat overpressure issues.

Its comforting to see a similar setup work so efficiently.

You're using a mask for your setup? Which one?

 

[Kapsyl]

You're using a mask for your setup? Which one?

A gas mask, specifically a Swedish forsheda f2. The details are in my tread

Gas mask with reservoir, inert gas

I'm looking for advice for a variation of the inert gas method but using a military grade gas mask which is connected to a nitrogen filled environment instead. I haven’t seen this variation of inert gas proposed so I figured it was worthy its own thread I propose using this gas mask...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[color_me_gone]

I don't understand much about the SN method but I think If one can't wait for 30-60 seconds in order to black out with inert gas, then it will be harder to wait for 10 minutes after ingesting SN...

With inert gas, you're sitting there with a bag over your head, feeling kind of foolish. As you wait, you listen to the gas pouring in, knowing that it will ultimately kill you. It's like a scene from an Alfred Hitchcock suspense thriller. All that puts your anxiety level through the roof, which, in turn, thwarts your ability to fight your SI. Much less drama with SN.

 

[thegoldengirls]

It doesn't really matter how you put the soapy water on the connections to check for leaks, I guess some people found it less messy using a spray bottle. Once there's no bubbles showing after the soapy water is put on, then there's no gas leaking out.



Hi @thegoldengirls,

Yeah, S.I. can be a tough nut to crack for most people. One of the reasons people don't go for the inert gas method is due to the length of time waiting to go unconscious after pulling down the bag/hood/mask.

From what I've seen posted here, it can take about 30-60 seconds to go unconscious with the exit bag or hood. Maybe about 15 seconds with a SCBA or SCUBA mask.

I get it, 30-60 seconds can seem a long time if S.I. starts kicking in. One poster a few months back, @DyingToDie123, was only able to get to about 15-20 seconds before ripping off their hood:





SCBA/SCUBA might reduce the time down to maybe 15 seconds, based on what a couple of people said after doing blackout tests. But like you said, they're expensive set-ups.

SCUBA blackout test.

SCBA blackout test.


You might have seen a study paper, previously linked here, done on a helium trial by the Swiss assisted dying organisation Dignitas. They normally use Nembutal for their assisted dying patients, but once trialled helium hooked up to oxygen masks on 5 volunteers. The patients took 36-55 seconds to go unconscious.
(One took a lot longer to die than the others- this was put down to the oxygen mask not being a tigh enough seal).
This table from that study gives you an idea of the length of time to loss of consciousness with inert gas:
View attachment 131943


Your anxiety is perfectly normal.
No matter what method you choose, the S.I. could be hard to beat. S.I. has prevented people from pulling a trigger on a gun.

If the wait with the bag on your head proves too much for you, then other methods like SN may be more suitable.

Ultimately, to get over S.I. you have to be desperate enough to ctb. You have to be truly at peace with leaving this world.

Yes, SI is so terrible. I'm considering upgrading to a Eebd setup. Just looking at it, it doesn't look so claustrophobic and hot as opposed to plastic bag.
I've read a few threads about it, and it seems like it would be more comfortable than the bag.
I found one online.

With the EEBD hood, is it just the hood that is needed? I would just connect that to the Nitrogen tank?

 

[Tears in Rain]

Yes, SI is so terrible. I'm considering upgrading to a Eebd setup. Just looking at it, it doesn't look so claustrophobic and hot as opposed to plastic bag.
I've read a few threads about it, and it seems like it would be more comfortable than the bag.
I found one online.
View attachment 132143
With the EEBD hood, is it just the hood that is needed? I would just connect that to the Nitrogen tank?

I guess the hood might be a little less claustrophobic, there will be a bit more space in front of your upper face. But it's still covering your entire head, and the length of time to lose consciousness may still be 30+ seconds.

But if you want to try it, you just need to get mini hose clamps, to go with the hood. You cut the metal connector off the end of the hood hose, and then attach the hose to the regulator hose barb with one or two small hose clamps/clips.