Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[needout]

Thanks,I may just use the regulator as it is and use the flow guage on it for feeding directly to the hood rather than adding more complications to the equation.argon being heavier than air hopefully won't be to overwhelming to breathe, although being you last few breathes i guess it hardly matters

 

[Pikmin]

Can anyone give me some guidance of decent regulator for Nitrogen? Having difficulty finding one with a 1/2 connection for the PVC tubing, as well as a flowmeter that has L/pm on it. Thank you.

 

[winterparty]

So I was wondering..

-If you checked for leaks like months ago do you have to recheck them if you want to use the setup? They don't unscrew that easily?I use a quick coupler with the 3m Scott hood.

-Is lying down really worse for co2 purging and where did @GasMonkey get all that information?

 

[needout]

Anyone and experience of using an eebd hood?on further reading of the Tec manual for the one I ordered it seems to operate at 35lpm,im not sure if the mouthpiece has a regulator in it.now I'm using argon which I will set at 25lpm recommended,does anyone know if the mouthpiece will accept the lower pressure being delivered to the hood or does the hood intake valve only open at the 35lpm rate,bit of a tech question but cant really ask the manufactory of it given the use for it.

 

[Tears in Rain]

Anyone and experience of using an eebd hood?on further reading of the Tec manual for the one I ordered it seems to operate at 35lpm,im not sure if the mouthpiece has a regulator in it.now I'm using argon which I will set at 25lpm recommended,does anyone know if the mouthpiece will accept the lower pressure being delivered to the hood or does the hood intake valve only open at the 35lpm rate,bit of a tech question but cant really ask the manufactory of it given the use for it.

The mouthpiece of these hoods doesn't have a regulator. The regulator is usually located where the hood hose enters the air tank.(try and buy just the hood and hose).


Most of these hoods have an inlet valve allowing the air/gas in, and an exhalation valve for the exhaled CO2.

The PPH used 25 LPM for tests it did on a hood/helmet. I would use 25 LPM nitrogen/argon/helium with a hood.
15LPM is probably fine for nitrogen/helium with an exit bag, 25lpm for argon.

PPH hood/helmet:

PPH exit bag with nitrogen:

 

[needout]

Thankyou,I'm hoping so,iv already found out the hose length is now only 1 meter rather than 1.5meter claimed so that makes distance to cylinder very tight,I will have to do this in my car unfortunately,so could be tricky to place the cylinder close behind my front seat or passenger foot well and get the distance needed ,once I pass out I don't want the bottle falling over so probably have to tie it in place

 

[Tears in Rain]

Can anyone give me some guidance of decent regulator for Nitrogen? Having difficulty finding one with a 1/2 connection for the PVC tubing, as well as a flowmeter that has L/pm on it. Thank you.

If the size of your barb is 1/4"(6mm), then you need Oxygen tubing or PVC tubing(1/4"ID).In theory,1/4" barb is for hose/tube with 1/4" ID but one of the members said it's hard to connect 1/4" ID to 1/4" barb.You can buy PVC tubing with 3/8" ID and if the connection is not tight enough,use a hose clamp.

If you can't find a nitrogen regulator with flowmeter gauge, or floating ball flowmeter, you might be able to get a click-style nitrogen regulator:


If in the U.S. or U.K. you can use an argon regulator with nitrogen, it has the same cylinder connection.(you can't do this in Germany/EU countries with DIN connection. Not sure about rest of the world that have different cylinder connections to U.S./UK).

 

[thegoldengirls]

So, I have my setup ready and it feels so surreal that whenever I'm ready to do this, I just have to simply do it.
I want additional room for practice so I also purchased a 40 cu ft tank of Nitrogen that I will be picking up locally.
Things I've noticed is that constructing the exit bag is actually harder than figuring out the mechanisms of the cylinder. It's pretty self explanatory, installing the regulator,etc.
The tubing that comes with the regulator is HEAVY,
So, finding the perfect placement in taping the tube to the bag was a very clumsy experience.
Once the tubing is taped in, trying to hold the bag above my head along with the taped heavy tubing was a quite an inept experience.
The bag takes longer to fill up than I imagined.
So, the taped heavy tubing, holding the bag above my head like a shower cap, while waiting for the bag to fill up before pulling down, and tying the bag once down ...while coordinating the proper breathing pattern surprisingly takes some experience.
I pulled down the bag before it could even fill up to full capacity because like I mentioned, the bag takes quite a bit of time to fill up, and I didn't want to waste too much gas.
That's why this additional tank will give me more than enough gas to practice so that I can get a hang of doing this successfully. I do think I'm overthinking this and will just go for it soon.
My oxygen did drop a bit to 93 and that was without the bag being completely full.
I did not feel too much SI, maybe because I knew I was practicing.
It was more so my fear of wasting too much gas that was making me nervous. I felt slightly woozy and a knot on the side of my neck developed that went away. The neck pain threw me off a little, I found that strange. Maybe that was just an isolated incident. The sound of the gas is not as loud as I thought it was going to be.
I will hopefully practice again before tomorrow and ctb.

 

[Tears in Rain]

So, I have my setup ready and it feels so surreal that whenever I'm ready to do this, I just have to simply do it.

Yeah, when you have everything you need to potentially end your existence, things get very real.
It's a big decision, you're either ready or you're not.

I want additional room for practice so I also purchased a 40 cu ft tank of Nitrogen that I will be picking up locally.
Things I've noticed is that constructing the exit bag is actually harder than figuring out the mechanisms of the cylinder. It's pretty self explanatory, installing the regulator,etc.

Yeah, I've seen others mention that making the exit bag isn't as straightforward as the how-to videos make out. Did you use an elastic band for around the neck of the bag, or a sports headband/sweatband?

The tubing that comes with the regulator is HEAVY,
So, finding the perfect placement in taping the tube to the bag was a very clumsy experience.
Once the tubing is taped in, trying to hold the bag above my head along with the taped heavy tubing was a quite an inept experience.

If the hose is too heavy, maybe switch to pvc/vinyl tubing. You don't want something heavy pulling down on the bag.

The bag takes longer to fill up than I imagined.
So, the taped heavy tubing, holding the bag above my head like a shower cap, while waiting for the bag to fill up before pulling down, and tying the bag once down ...while coordinating the proper breathing pattern surprisingly takes some experience.
I pulled down the bag before it could even fill up to full capacity because like I mentioned, the bag takes quite a bit of time to fill up, and I didn't want to waste too much gas.

The PPH says it can take about 2 minutes for the exit bag to fill:

That's why this additional tank will give me more than enough gas to practice so that I can get a hang of doing this successfully. I do think I'm overthinking this and will just go for it soon.

It's good to practice as much as possible.
Get as comfortable as you can with the setup.

My oxygen did drop a bit to 93 and that was without the bag being completely full.
I did not feel too much SI, maybe because I knew I was practicing.
It was more so my fear of wasting too much gas that was making me nervous. I felt slightly woozy and a knot on the side of my neck developed that went away. The neck pain threw me off a little, I found that strange. Maybe that was just an isolated incident. The sound of the gas is not as loud as I thought it was going to be.
I will hopefully practice again before tomorrow and ctb.

Nerves are normal, good luck with things!

 

[thegoldengirls]

Yeah, when you have everything you need to potentially end your existence, things get very real.
It's a big decision, you're either ready or you're not.


Yeah, I've seen others mention that making the exit bag isn't as straightforward as the how-to videos make out. Did you use an elastic band for around the neck of the bag, or a sports headband/sweatband?


If the hose is too heavy, maybe switch to pvc/vinyl tubing. You don't want something heavy pulling down on the bag.


The PPH says it can take about 2 minutes for the exit bag to fill:
View attachment 131293


It's good to practice as much as possible.
Get as comfortable as you can with the setup.


Nerves are normal, good luck with things!

Yes. I think I might switch the plastic tubings, the regulator tubing will make my attempts more clumsy than needs be.
I used the elastic band for the bag, and yes... SI is no joke, that's why I will have an alcoholic beverage to lower my inhibitions.

 

[needout]

Words of warning..some eebd rescue hoods iv discovered are actually made from non airtight fabric (fairly breathable actually)which may cause leakage on air pressure and flow restricted hoses fitted , although the gas goes into the mouth piece it does not have a means to keep it in place once you pass out,this may or may not be the most reliable way with gas,it may or may not be as safe as an exit bag, hard to say as there are a few types of hood but all are not equal once you check deeper
into technical spec.this may need some rethinking

 

[Justnotme]

Are there any of you guys who were only given a receipt for the purchase of an inert gas cylinder?
I mean, I was not given a document that confirms the quality of the cylinder and the quality of the gas. They just gave me a check and that's it.

Has anyone encountered such a problem?

 

[Tears in Rain]

Words of warning..some eebd rescue hoods iv discovered are actually made from non airtight fabric (fairly breathable actually)which may cause leakage on air pressure and flow restricted hoses fitted , although the gas goes into the mouth piece it does not have a means to keep it in place once you pass out,this may or may not be the most reliable way with gas,it may or may not be as safe as an exit bag, hard to say as there are a few types of hood but all are not equal once you check deeper
into technical spec.this may need some rethinking

Are you looking at a hood from one of the Chinese websites, like in Vizzy's EEBD hood guide? He ctb'd with those yellow EEBD hoods.

Are you worried about the nitrogen/inert gas escaping out the fabric?
Both the inner mask and hood itself will be full of nitrogen. Any oxygen initially in the hood will be pushed out by the nitrogen.
Once you pass out, the inner mask will still be snugly against your mouth.
See pics of hood inner masks:

Chinese Alibaba hood:


Draeger CF:


Scott ELSA:

 

[needout]

Hi, unfortunately the hood I ordered isn't that one,I have a feeling the one I have is more of a rescue hood and very basic materials, permeable fabric and a very simple mouth piece ,it's a Scott rescue hood,so it appears to be designed for a very short time period and not a full eebd /elsa type,also the flow restricted hoses thats fitted seems to possibly be problem ,I'm also using argon as it designed to be fed via a rescuers own air supply,when i get it i have some mods to do on it,who knows.

 

[grahf]

Don't try to use a flow meter for argon and use a conversion factor to nitrogen. Why? Because every manufacturer has a different conversion factor, you might be using the wrong one.

Can anyone explain to me why you cant use flow meter for argon, or anyone can explain how iam using flow meter for argon for my nitrogen

 

[Tears in Rain]

Can anyone explain to me why you cant use flow meter for argon, or anyone can explain how iam using flow meter for argon for my nitrogen

You can use an argon regulator (with flowmeter) on a nitrogen cylinder if the cylinder connection for nitrogen in your region is the same as an argon cylinder connection.

So, for example, in the U.S.(CGA580 connection) and the UK(B.S. 341 No. 3 connection), the cylinder connections for nitrogen, argon, and helium are the same type of connection. So an argon regulator will fit a nitrogen cylinder in these countries.
But for other regions, like Australia, and Germany (and some EU countries with the same DIN connection as Germany), the nitrogen cylinder connection is different to an argon and helium cylinder connection. So an argon regulator will not fit a nitrogen cylinder in those countries.

So, if you want to know if an argon regulator works with a nitrogen cylinder, find out if nitrogen and argon cylinders have the same valve connection in your country.

If you use an argon regulator with a nitrogen cylinder, then you have to make adjustments in the litres per minute (LPM) gasflow, as the two gases are a different weight/density. But it's not that much of a difference. Setting an argon flowmeter to 15LPM gives 18LPM nitrogen; 20LPM on argon regulator gives about 25 LPM nitrogen. Either is fine.

 

[No_To_Life_Slavery]

I guess it's the thought of running out of Helium too soon and waking up with long term damage that terrifies me.

Have you thought of not only doing 1 method, but 2 or even 3 as back-ups? Like drining SN right before you pull the hood over your head?
PM me for one extra method (physical & timed mechanism [for conce you're unconscious & as a back-up]) that I recently "invented", that's not out there yet (as far as I know). It's basically: a construction for timed partial hang!ng. I think ctb not only by chemical method(s) would give me some sort of peace & trust in that I'm prepared even if one fails. Chemical methods sometimes seem a bit unpredictable to me (since you can't just directly see how it' happening, other than when it's physical).

Remember: mental prep is super important too. Vividly visualize & go though each step mentally regularly. Also: recent studies have shown that self control can get "used up" and self control and 'awareness of internal conflict' (in this case: being aware of how much you want to ctb & how much you "want" to take off the hood again) are "the same thing" - here the info source (by Healthy Gamer GG).
Maybe you can even hancuff yourself once the hood is over. Until you've brought yourself to handcuff yourself, you might already have passed out.

 

[No_To_Life_Slavery]

You can use an argon regulator (with flowmeter) on a nitrogen cylinder if the cylinder connection for nitrogen in your region is the same as an argon cylinder connection. ...

You seem like you've done a lot of research.
Do you know if a US (CGA580 flowmeter connection [like this one]) works with a german nitrogen cylinder: (cylinder valve: W 24,32 x 1/14'' [DIN 477 Nr. 10])?

 

[yestothedeath]

Question - if I managed to order nitrogen online, how is it delivered? Like in a box or? Is it obvious what it is? Basically how discreet is it lol

 

[Onomatopoeia]

Question - if I managed to order nitrogen online, how is it delivered? Like in a box or? Is it obvious what it is? Basically how discreet is it lol

It's an inert gas. I bought mine right over the counter at a store in the USA. But the receipt labels it a "hazardous material." Which makes sense because if the tank leaks in a small space, everyone will be dead, and will never know what hit them.

That said, at least in the USA, I'd assume it has to be declared a hazardous material when being shipped. So there will be more scrutiny. And I'd also assume Canada and the EU are probably more strict. It won't be discreet at all. The company name will be on the box, unless you order it from a thid party like Amazon. And it will have to be shipped in a padded box to ship. Nitrogen won't explode. But throwing the tank around like a rag doll could cause leaks.

 

[Placo]

I was thinking if the laughing gas is better than an inert gas to die, at least die in a good mood.

 

[Onomatopoeia]

I was thinking if the laughing gas is better than an inert gas to die, at least die in a good mood.

If you do nitrogen correctly, particularly with a SCUBA mask, you will feel "euphoria" after your first inhale, then lose consciousness after your 2nd or 3rd.

 

[needout]

Are you looking at a hood from one of the Chinese websites, like in Vizzy's EEBD hood guide? He ctb'd with those yellow EEBD hoods.
View attachment 131301
Are you worried about the nitrogen/inert gas escaping out the fabric?
Both the inner mask and hood itself will be full of nitrogen. Any oxygen initially in the hood will be pushed out by the nitrogen.
Once you pass out, the inner mask will still be snugly against your mouth.
See pics of hood inner masks:

Chinese Alibaba hood:
View attachment 131306View attachment 131305

Draeger CF:
View attachment 131307View attachment 131308

Scott ELSA:
View attachment 131309

Hi,need some help here,I have the Scott 3m fire rescue escape hood, unfortunately it comes with a flow restricted hose,the hose itself is 6mm internal diameter but narrows to a 1mm metal nozzle,I have removed that luckily but the internal connection to the hood also seems have a white plastic disc restrictor I think just behind the grill,see photo from inside the hood .when I blow hard down the hose it really won't allow much if any air in ,i have not tried it with pressured argon as im waiting on a cylinder, question being is it beter to just the gas free flow into the hood ,its quite a snug fit and seals around the neck using neoprene,i have concerns that the exhale valve may not vent enough co2 as the hood seems to stay very inflated on breath tests,any experience with this make of hood?can't get the one vizzy used unfortunately

 

[outrider567]

Question - if I managed to order nitrogen online, how is it delivered? Like in a box or? Is it obvious what it is? Basically how discreet is it lol

It comes in a plain brown box, no notices on it, mine is oversized, 125 cu ft, or 3500 liters, 69 lbs---Have it two years now, PSI still 1600

 

[Tears in Rain]

You seem like you've done a lot of research.
Do you know if a US (CGA580 flowmeter connection [like this one]) works with a german nitrogen cylinder: (cylinder valve: W 24,32 x 1/14'' [DIN 477 Nr. 10])?

No, it won't fit. They have totally different connections.

Hi,need some help here,I have the Scott 3m fire rescue escape hood, unfortunately it comes with a flow restricted hose,the hose itself is 6mm internal diameter but narrows to a 1mm metal nozzle,I have removed that luckily but the internal connection to the hood also seems have a white plastic disc restrictor I think just behind the grill,see photo from inside the hood .when I blow hard down the hose it really won't allow much if any air in ,i have not tried it with pressured argon as im waiting on a cylinder, question being is it beter to just the gas free flow into the hood ,its quite a snug fit and seals around the neck using neoprene,

The argon should flow into the hood just fine via the front valve. That white disc is probably just some kind of filter.
You could test it by holding the inner mask to your face and inhale the argon (if there's side holes in the inner mask you could tape them closed for the test). You could use an oximeter hooked up to your finger to look at your falling O2 levels. Or do a blackout test.

i have concerns that the exhale valve may not vent enough co2 as the hood seems to stay very inflated on breath tests,any experience with this make of hood?can't get the one vizzy used unfortunately

The exhale valves are probably similar in all of those EEBD/ELSA inner masks.
People in this thread were discussing them previously on this thread. The CO2 will either go out the front exhalation valve or if there's small side holes in the inner mask it will also go into the main hood and be purged out the bottom by the argon.

EEBD hoods become flooded with nitrogen at the recommended lpm rate. That nosepeice and valve looks fairly good compared to mine. Any exhaled gas that remains within the hood will be pushed out at the neck fitting, this is why the elasticated fitting is not 'skin-tight'. It is also why a cylinder with 40 mins flow duration is used. It is if you will excuse the pun, an overkill amount of gas, A great deal of over-thinking goes on here, which is fairly predictable under the circumstances. But when one considers that this method started out as an oven bag with a plastic tube taped inside it, these hoods with the exhalation valve are quite a remarkable development.

That low tech exhalation valve will do the job, you only need an exhalation valve to prevent carbon dioxide from accumulating inside the hood, cessation of breathing occurs in less than 5 minutes, If you think that exhalation valve can't do its job for 5 minutes, you better sue the manufacturer and get some money from them.

 

[needout]

Thanks guys ,you seem to have some experience with eebd hoods,the white disc is actually pretty solid,I removed it ,it definitely seems to be some type of restriction device,this type of hood is designed to plug into the firefighters own air supply and give a reduced flow to the survivor,but not compromised the firefighter own supplies of air from his tank ,bloody complicated!is it really wise to do a black out test what ever that is or just connect up the argon via my regulator and go for it?I have no oxygen meter to test level inside the hood, sorry for the questions,but desperate to get on with the CBT

 

[Tears in Rain]

!is it really wise to do a black out test what ever that is or just connect up the argon via my regulator and go for it?I have no oxygen meter to test level inside the hood, sorry for the questions,but desperate to get on with the CBT

There's probably no need to do a blackout test if you're confident the inert gas purity is high:

There is no need to do any blackout tests as long as you test the purity of the gas or buy the cylinder from an extremely reputable supplier that provides a certificate of purity.

If you want to do a blackout test you can use a SCUBA setup with a negative pressure demand valve (when you faint the mask will fall and air respiration will be restored) or fill a Mylar Balloon and inhale from it.​

I guess the pulse oximeter hooked up to your finger(as opposed to an oxygen sensor hooked up to the gas regulator) is handy for checking that your O2 levels are falling if you test the hood:

Whether using an EEBD Hood, SCBA mask, or exit bag, Nitrogen is a painless death, you just pass out in less than a minute--My test with the Oximeter showed my Oxygen level drop from 98 to 46 after just 5 or 6 breaths(ten seconds delay) of Nitrogen using the EEBD Hood, Nitrogen rapidly replaces Oxygen in your body--See the Inert Gas Mega Thread for more info

It's up to yourself whether you want to do any tests or not.

 

[needout]

There's probably no need to do a blackout test if you're confident the inert gas purity is high:


I guess the pulse oximeter hooked up to your finger(as opposed to an oxygen sensor hooked up to the gas regulator) is handy for checking that your O2 levels are falling if you test the hood:


It's up to yourself whether you want to do any tests or not.

I'm getting the pure argon from welding supplies shop,purity I hope should be good,I have said it's forTIG wielding and not a argon mix.i guess I should test it ,I suppose my eagerness to get this over with is making me cut corners which could cause a dangerously failure and ending up a vegetable .im also concerned about the high flow of the recommendations of 25lpm of argon going into the hood and really not escaping enough,it's quite a tight neck seal but as people's have said the force of the nitrogen should force out through the neoprene neck seal,the hose is now modified from its flow restricted insert,I drilled it out from 1mm to 4.5 mm to allow the higher 25lpm flow rate,i also removed the solid white insert from inside the hose to hood attachment so no reduced pressure onto the hood ,any of you guys had any attempts or problems with this method,im a heavy vaper ,very heavy which people have said may be a problem

I'm getting the pure argon from welding supplies shop,purity I hope should be good,I have said it's forTIG wielding and not a argon mix.i guess I should test it ,I suppose my eagerness to get this over with is making me cut corners which could cause a dangerously failure and ending up a vegetable .im also concerned about the high flow of the recommendations of 25lpm of argon going into the hood and really not escaping enough,it's quite a tight neck seal but as people's have said the force of the nitrogen should force out through the neoprene neck seal,the hose is now modified from its flow restricted insert,I drilled it out from 1mm to 4.5 mm to allow the higher 25lpm flow rate,i also removed the solid white insert from inside the hose to hood attachment so no reduced pressure onto the hood ,any of you guys had any attempts or problems with this method,im a heavy vaper ,very heavy which people have said may be a problem

Forgot to ask,what would be the minimum purity of argon be ?

 

[Tears in Rain]

im also concerned about the high flow of the recommendations of 25lpm of argon going into the hood and really not escaping enough,it's quite a tight neck seal but as people's have said the force of the nitrogen should force out through the neoprene neck seal

Those hoods are designed for a high flow rate, something like 40LPM. I wouldn't worry about 25 LPM going into the hood.

,the hose is now modified from its flow restricted insert,I drilled it out from 1mm to 4.5 mm to allow the higher 25lpm flow rate,i also removed the solid white insert from inside the hose to hood attachment so no reduced pressure onto the hood ,any of you guys had any attempts or problems with this method,im a heavy vaper ,very heavy which people have said may be a problem

Like I said, those things usually have a flowrate of 40LPM, to keep a person alive for ~15 mins. I wouldn't worry about 25LPM flowrate getting into the hood.

Forgot to ask,what would be the minimum purity of argon be ?

It's advised to use minimum 98% purity with the inert gases.

Nope, you have to pre-fill first, otherwise the time to loss of consciousness will be massively increased.

With the EEBD hood the process would be:
1. Pre-fill hood (holding it atop the head).
2. Take a deep breath of air.
3. Insert head into the hood.
4. Adjust the inner mask on the face.
5. Exhale fully.
6. Take a deep breath of Nitrogen.

There is no need to hyperventilate and pre-exhale like with the ExitBag because the EEBD hood has an exhalation valve.

 

[grahf]

so you have an example: I will CTB today using this method. If I don't show up again, it works.

Sorry may I ask if you are failed or maybe I don't know