Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[GasMonkey]

I have no idea what regulators etc.. to get to be honest.

Read inert gas chapter on the PPeH & PPH Essentials.

 

[depressomartin.iis]

Read inert gas chapter on the PPeH & PPH Essentials.

Those max dog regulators are too expensive on top of buying a cylinder and the rest, i cant really afford it

 

[unnormal9]

Is there a guide similar to Stan's guide for the Inert method?

 

[HorriblePain]

Hi, my question is regarding: HOW TO USE A NITROGEN REGULATOR

Years ago, I purchased a nitrogen tank (40 cubic feet according to the receipt), a regulator and a flow meter for the regulator. I knew one day I would decline and possibly no longer be willing to endure the pain. Last week, I had to get something from the closet and saw the tank sitting in its box. It flashed through my mind that maybe a nitrogen tank doesn't hold the gas for years -- maybe the gas leaks out a tiny bit at a time day by day? If the moment arrives where I need to use it, maybe by then the tank will not have enough gas left?

I tried to research it. The information was extremely confusing. Most of the answers were relating to how long the tank itself lasts rather than how long it holds its contents. In fact, I only found one little comment claiming that gas slowly leaks day by day and after 3-5 months, an unused tank should no longer be considered full. I have no idea if that person knows what he is talking about.

It seemed obvious that I should hook up the regulator and find out how much gas is still in my tank. I hauled out the tank, connected the regulator, and then suddenly realized I have no idea how to read it. Years ago, when first researching the inert gas method, the instructions made the tank operation sound so easy, and somehow I never realized I have absolutely no idea how to use this regulator. Its tiny instruction manual hasn't helped in the slightest.

I tried researching how to determine the amount of gas in a tank, but all of the answers were explaining how to calculate the amount a tank can potentially hold, with no discussion of how to determine the current amount in the tank. Isn't there a way to make this determination? It seems like it would come up all the time with those who use tanks in their professions, just like it comes up all the time needing to know how much gas is currently in the tank of your car.

I realized not only do I not know how to figure out the amount of gas currently in the tank, I don't know how to set all these various knobs so that the flow rate is 15 liters per minute.

I spent hours and hours researching, watching welding videos, and instead of things becoming increasingly clear, I have made no progress and am now exhausted. I am stunned at how difficult it is for me to understand this tank and regulator.

The regulator has two gauges:
one reads 0-400 psi
the second reads 0-4000 psi

The flow meter is a cylinder with a floating ball that rises and falls according to the gas flow. It reads 0-80. (It doesn't specify what it measures, but i suspect it is liters per minute.)

I turned the "T-style" handle to turn on the gas. Once I had turned it a little, the gas began flowing. I could turn the handle a lot more than that but doing so didn't seem to increase the flow.

The little ball in the flow meter shot all the way up to 80. It has a knob and I found that by turning it, I could decrease/increase the flow. I turned it until the ball in the meter was at (roughly) 15.

So, according to this meter, it looks like the gas was flowing at 15 liters per minute. But how about the two gauges on the regulator? The gauge that ranges from 0-4000psi was reading 500psi. All the research I had done left me thinking it should be at 2200-2400psi if the tank is full. I have no idea what the other gauge is supposed to read (0-400psi).

And this is all I have been able to figure out so far. I am stuck here and exhausted. I am hoping someone can help me!

Here are my questions:
1. Is there a way to measure how much gas is left in this tank? I am terrified it will run out of gas in a few minutes and then I will be alive but with brain damage.

2. What should the two gauges be reading if I have everything set up properly (ranges of the two gauges: 0-400psi and 0-4000psi).

3. As long as the flow meter reads 15 liters per minute and there is enough gas in the tank to last 20-40 minutes, is everything ok with my tank setup or is there something else I need to worry about?

4. It is difficult to be precise with this flow meter. Turning its knob very slightly increases the flow by 2-4 liters rather than just 1. Exactly hitting 15 liters seems almost impossible. It will probably be closer to 17-19. I know insufficient flow will fail to flush out the co2, but how about if the flow is greater than 15 liters per minute?

Thank you for taking the time to read my long message. I hope you will be able to help me.

 

[HadItAll]

I'm from EU, so I'd need a regulator that supports an EU cylinder. How can I get a regulator that will for sure work, if the PPEH source no longer provides the EU regulator variant?

And why is that? Did EU recently have some law changes or something?

 

[anonaon]

Hi, my question is regarding: HOW TO USE A NITROGEN REGULATOR

Years ago, I purchased a nitrogen tank (40 cubic feet according to the receipt), a regulator and a flow meter for the regulator. I knew one day I would decline and possibly no longer be willing to endure the pain. Last week, I had to get something from the closet and saw the tank sitting in its box. It flashed through my mind that maybe a nitrogen tank doesn't hold the gas for years -- maybe the gas leaks out a tiny bit at a time day by day? If the moment arrives where I need to use it, maybe by then the tank will not have enough gas left?

I tried to research it. The information was extremely confusing. Most of the answers were relating to how long the tank itself lasts rather than how long it holds its contents. In fact, I only found one little comment claiming that gas slowly leaks day by day and after 3-5 months, an unused tank should no longer be considered full. I have no idea if that person knows what he is talking about.

It seemed obvious that I should hook up the regulator and find out how much gas is still in my tank. I hauled out the tank, connected the regulator, and then suddenly realized I have no idea how to read it. Years ago, when first researching the inert gas method, the instructions made the tank operation sound so easy, and somehow I never realized I have absolutely no idea how to use this regulator. Its tiny instruction manual hasn't helped in the slightest.

I tried researching how to determine the amount of gas in a tank, but all of the answers were explaining how to calculate the amount a tank can potentially hold, with no discussion of how to determine the current amount in the tank. Isn't there a way to make this determination? It seems like it would come up all the time with those who use tanks in their professions, just like it comes up all the time needing to know how much gas is currently in the tank of your car.

I realized not only do I not know how to figure out the amount of gas currently in the tank, I don't know how to set all these various knobs so that the flow rate is 15 liters per minute.

I spent hours and hours researching, watching welding videos, and instead of things becoming increasingly clear, I have made no progress and am now exhausted. I am stunned at how difficult it is for me to understand this tank and regulator.

The regulator has two gauges:
one reads 0-400 psi
the second reads 0-4000 psi

The flow meter is a cylinder with a floating ball that rises and falls according to the gas flow. It reads 0-80. (It doesn't specify what it measures, but i suspect it is liters per minute.)

I turned the "T-style" handle to turn on the gas. Once I had turned it a little, the gas began flowing. I could turn the handle a lot more than that but doing so didn't seem to increase the flow.

The little ball in the flow meter shot all the way up to 80. It has a knob and I found that by turning it, I could decrease/increase the flow. I turned it until the ball in the meter was at (roughly) 15.

So, according to this meter, it looks like the gas was flowing at 15 liters per minute. But how about the two gauges on the regulator? The gauge that ranges from 0-4000psi was reading 500psi. All the research I had done left me thinking it should be at 2200-2400psi if the tank is full. I have no idea what the other gauge is supposed to read (0-400psi).

And this is all I have been able to figure out so far. I am stuck here and exhausted. I am hoping someone can help me!

Here are my questions:
1. Is there a way to measure how much gas is left in this tank? I am terrified it will run out of gas in a few minutes and then I will be alive but with brain damage.

2. What should the two gauges be reading if I have everything set up properly (ranges of the two gauges: 0-400psi and 0-4000psi).

3. As long as the flow meter reads 15 liters per minute and there is enough gas in the tank to last 20-40 minutes, is everything ok with my tank setup or is there something else I need to worry about?

4. It is difficult to be precise with this flow meter. Turning its knob very slightly increases the flow by 2-4 liters rather than just 1. Exactly hitting 15 liters seems almost impossible. It will probably be closer to 17-19. I know insufficient flow will fail to flush out the co2, but how about if the flow is greater than 15 liters per minute?

Thank you for taking the time to read my long message. I hope you will be able to help me.

3) I would also confirm the nitrogen's purity just to be safe but 15LPM for 20-40 mins is more than enough to CTB

4) 15LPM is the optimal flow rate and also the bare minimum. You can use a higher flow rate (20-25) if you want, though I haven't heard of anyone using a flow rate higher than 25LPM. It's also probably better to use a higher flow rate if you're concerned about leakage/using an exit bag.

 

[GasMonkey]

one reads 0-400 psi

That measures the output pressure.

the second reads 0-4000 psi

That measures the pressure in the tank.

Is there a way to measure how much gas is left in this tank?

current volume = total volume when full * current pressure / pressure when full

2. What should the two gauges be reading if I have everything set up properly (ranges of the two gauges: 0-400psi and 0-4000psi).

I have never used a pressure regulator with an attached non-integrated flow meter, but it will probably work by setting the output pressure to max and then setting the flow in the flow meter. Or maybe the flow meter that you attach has a range of pressure where it can work well.​

It is difficult to be precise with this flow meter. Turning its knob very slightly increases the flow by 2-4 liters rather than just 1. Exactly hitting 15 liters seems almost impossible.

That's why the standard type of regulator to CTB is the click-style where you select exactly the flow rate that you want in a wheel:​

The click-style regulators are so easy to use to CTB that nowadays they are usually not sold to anybody unless you have a medical or brewing license. There is a source (the Canadian source AKA EM) that solds them freely to anybody but unfortunately their web is offline now because somebody (ordered by the goverment maybe?) has taken down their domain names, but looks like they are taking orders by e-mail. In the website they also offered systems much more advanced and efficient than the ExitBag: SCBA & EEBD Hood.
​

how about if the flow is greater than 15 liters per minute?

That's not bad (CO₂ purging will be even faster) but maybe it will be a little too noisy.
Where are you from?

How can I get a regulator that will for sure work

EM.

if the PPEH source no longer provides the EU regulator variant?

And why is that? Did EU recently have some law changes or something?

They probably have run out of them and decided not to restock due to EM taking over the market. The problem with those MDB regulators is that they safely support only 150 bar max because they are modified O₂ regs with a N₂ connector.​

 

[jojointhebus]

Good evening to all. There it is, I finally received everything.
I think I'll catch the bus on this friday 21st or in the week-end.

I'll post a thread with my latest letter a little later.
By the way, I'm planning to program it, so if you read it it will mean I've succeeded

 

[ReluctantSeeker]

Do you feel like there's more reliability with that versus using a bag?

If you mean using your own bag/setup, then yes, I think what EM offered would have been more reliable, since it was all tooled for a specific purpose.
Take my opinion with a grain of salt (ha!), though; I unfortunately haven't done any hands-on testing with any materials for this type of method yet. I would like for that to change, however, and would welcome info/general pointers on alternative means of acquiring equipment.

 

[anonaon]

hello,

what would happen if one uses a mixture of inert gasses like 75% argon and 25% helium? would that be viable to ctb? why or why not?

Also, to those of you who have a complete setup and ran some tests, what are some things that you test for/should test for besides O2 purity?

 

[GasMonkey]

You would have problems setting the proper flow rate since the regulator would be calibrated for 1 gas.
You could add to that Nitrogen+Helium mixture an Argon regulator to create the worst setup possible.

 

[anonaon]

T

You would have problems setting the proper flow rate since the regulator would be calibrated for 1 gas.
You could add to that Nitrogen+Helium mixture an Argon regulator to create the worst setup possible.

thanks.

Also, I know that em regulators are specifically calibrated for N2 but what would happen if you were to use Argon?

 

[GasMonkey]

@imcadt99 CTB'd using the EM SCBA+Argon so looks like it works.

 

[ReluctantSeeker]

This is probably a dumb question, but, For those who have ordered from EM, did you use your full name along with the address? This is in the context of shipping to the U. S. I thought you need to use all legitimate info otherwise the U. S. Postal Service won't ship it.

 

[anonaon]

@imcadt99 CTB'd using the EM SCBA+Argon so looks like it works.

Do you know if his regulator is also from em?

 

[GasMonkey]

Yep, is their CGA-580 pressure flow reg.

 

[anonaon]

Yep, is their CGA-580 pressure flow reg.

thank you

 

[BougainvilleaBlooms]

Mp meed to be sorry, just take your time and get the proper equipment.

Tubing is connected on the land hand side, tank is connected on the right side.
The wheel on the left side adjusts the flow rate to the correct l/pm.

Okay so I think I have my shopping together. Also, how heavy would it be to carry?

 

[Das Nichts]

Okay so I think I have my shopping together. Also, how heavy would it be to carry? View attachment 108639

If I found the same source click on "show more details and specs". 8 litres will be more then enough.
I also need this to be portable so I will aim for 5 litres. The PPH / PPeH suggets 2 litres.

 

[outrider567]

This is probably a dumb question, but, For those who have ordered from EM, did you use your full name along with the address? This is in the context of shipping to the U. S. I thought you need to use all legitimate info otherwise the U. S. Postal Service won't ship it.

Yes of course, full name and address

 

[sivling]

Hello everyone, I, m sivling,, a lot of time resdig this forum , but this is my first participation here. Please, could someone tell me where to get this adapter? The connection to the N2 bottle is 21.7mm x 1/14" (I only find 21.8mm) and the other is DIN G5/8" the typical coupling of diving refulators: thank you very much. I have attached a photo with the explanation, I hope it does not violate any rules. B.regards

 

[GasMonkey]

The connection to the N2 bottle is 21.7mm x 1/14" (I only find 21.8mm)

As far as I know there is no air-to-nitrogen adapter for 21.7mm (I have never found one).
Are you from Spain or Italy? :)

The solution is getting an EU standard cylinder (W 24.32 × 1/14" RH) and get that air-to-nitrogen adapter. The adapter must be 300bar air side if using SCBA (all SCBAs are DIN300) or 200bar air side if using a DIN200 SCUBA regulator. The one on that image is DIN200.

 

[sivling]

Thanks for your answer, yes I´m from Mediterranean Europe, I.ll ask in a lathe machining shop

As far as I know there is no air-to-nitrogen adapter for 21.7mm (I have never found one).
Are you from Spain or Italy? :)

The solution is getting an EU standard cylinder (W 24.32 × 1/14" RH) and get that air-to-nitrogen adapter. The adapter must be 300bar air side if using SCBA (all SCBAs are DIN300) or 200bar air side if using a DIN200 SCUBA regulator. The one on that image is DIN200.

 

[GasMonkey]

I.ll ask in a lathe machining shop

For a custom made 21.7mm adapter? That would be really cool.

 

[HorriblePain]

I purchased a prefilled nitrogen tank online years ago. I took it out recently and discovered that it is no longer full. I thought I had better buy a new one but currently that company only has three options for their tanks: argon, argon/co2, and empty. I googled various nitrogen-related search terms and got nothing but junk results. I can't find a single company that sells prefilled nitrogen tanks online that ships to the United States.

Because I already own a tank, I could just take it to a local welding supply company and have it filled. The problem is, with my health as it is, and no car, there is no way for me to get there without asking one of the few people I know for a ride. And anyone I know will be *extremely* suspicious about why I am having a gas tank filled.

I don't know what to do now. I was getting comfort from thinking that I have a means in place when the pain gets too bad but I now realize I have nothing in place. As time passes and I continue to decline, it will be increasingly difficult to deal with obtaining a full tank of nitrogen. I am deeply hoping that someone knows where I can order a prefilled tank online that ships to the US.

Thanks for reading my question.

 

[Das Nichts]

Thanks for reading my question

You could tell one if the local shops you car broke down and ask them if they could pick it up or If you could ship it to them for filling.

Might seem odd at first but nobody will second guess this.

 

[seekingpeacefulend]

3) I would also confirm the nitrogen's purity just to be safe but 15LPM for 20-40 mins is more than enough to CTB

4) 15LPM is the optimal flow rate and also the bare minimum. You can use a higher flow rate (20-25) if you want, though I haven't heard of anyone using a flow rate higher than 25LPM. It's also probably better to use a higher flow rate if you're concerned about leakage/using an exit bag.

Will regulator that does 100 psi do the job as all our measurements for things here are totally different to what yours is. I converted the tank from cf to m3 they have 2 regulators available one that apparently is for nitrogen and the other is much higher pressure. I'll put photos here tonight as I need internet connection via wifi from phone the pics are on to transfer to here.

 

[Das Nichts]

Will regulator that does 100 psi do the job as all our measurements for things here are totally different to what yours is. I converted the tank from cf to m3 they have 2 regulators available one that apparently is for nitrogen and the other is much higher pressure. I'll put photos here tonight as I need internet connection via wifi from phone the pics are on to transfer to here.

100 PSI = 6,89476 Bar. Do you mean the output of the regulator ? Input should be 200/150 bar.

 

[seekingpeacefulend]

Will the nitrogen one work its cheaper that's the one not attached to tank

 

[Das Nichts]

Will the nitrogen one work its cheaper that's the one not attached to tank

You need a regulator that lets you set litres per minute.