Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Jrmull1993]

But I still don´t understand why nitrogen should be compatible, but helium not. People around the world used a scuba equipment to CTB. Just one example:

Helium gas for medical purposes would work, but many gas bottlers who bottle helium for retail use (baloons) mix oxygen with the product to both reduce cost, and make it a "safer" product. There is actually a product called "Baloon Gas" that is essentially diluted helium.

Balloon Gas & Helium | Partysafe

How much do you know about helium? And balloon gas? Here's a spoiler alert: they're not the same! Balloon gas is a mixture of mainly helium and some atmospheric gases. It is a by product of the helium gas industry and cannot be used in science and academic applications.

www.partysafe.eu

 

[GasMonkey]

But I still don´t understand why nitrogen should be compatible, but helium not.

I'm not claiming that Helium shouldn't be compatible, just that it should the tested in the gear before use, since at the end of the day, the equipment it's designed to work with air (which is mostly composed of Nitrogen).

Helium gas for medical purposes would work, but many gas bottlers who bottle helium for retail use (baloons) mix oxygen with the product to both reduce cost, and make it a "safer" product.

He has a 4.6 cylinder (99.996%) so his helium is totally pure.

 

[Jrmull1993]

He has a 4.6 cylinder (99.996%) so his helium is totally pure.

I see that now.... My bad, I shouldn't have dove right into this.

 

[freelifexit]

Just one example: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ll-face-mask-fixed-on-the-face_fig8_253647263

He has cyanosis, blue spots and blue nails. I didn't think it happens with gas method.

 

[GasMonkey]

He has cyanosis, blue spots and blue nails. I didn't think it happens with gas method.

It was confirmed in the autopsy that he CTB'd with Nitrogen.

 

[freelifexit]

It was confirmed in the autopsy that he CTB'd with Nitrogen.

I had no doubt that it was nitrogen, I was just surprised that this method causes cyanosis.

 

[ertn]

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/exit-bag-and-inert-gas-megathread.8393/post-1690874

1st EM kit (my setup), 2nd parts from AL1B4B4, 3rd SCUBA parts (befree's setup).


There are different demand valves for different mask insertions, but not much of them, in EU is basically the Dr4g3r-type and the /\/\SA-type. The regulator can be a native N₂ regulator (EM kit) or an air regulator (any SCBA or SCUBA regulator, which will require a nitrogen-to-air adapter, since you will connect it to a N₂ cylinder).


Are you gonna Catch The Bus or Catch The Submarine?

The intuitive option is SCBA (Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus), since you are not gonna do it underwater (SCUBA: Self-Contained Underwater Breathing Apparatus), but since both work on land, it depends on your access to gear, prices on your region, available money, etc.

Andross01 has reported his SCUBA mask being uncomfortable in the nose. I have never used SCUBA so I don't know if the mask has to be from a certain tier of quality to be comfortable, I know that they usually have an "equalizing block" to cover the nose for equalization underwater, so you would need to remove that somehow.

I have used a lot of SCBA and I can confirm that all SCBA mask are 100% comfortable.

I didn't have much time to research further.

I live in the EU and I looked for the Dr**** and found SCBA masks. In addition, a regulator that fits into the mask - quite expensive.

The hose is not very thick and I doubt that it is suitable for high pressure. I found out it's just the second stage regulator.

The regulator of the first stage is integrated in the complete equipment. So far I haven't been able to find a separate one without the belt system. Except used goods, but better is new.

Of course, I could just buy a standard regulator and mount it on the cylinder. But then I don't know how high to set it so that it works well with the second stage regulator. And I don't know how to connect them. This will be complicated. I want it easy to use.

I could also buy the complete system, but then it would quickly cost me thousands of euros. And I would have to remove the acoustic warning device for little pressure.

I wouldn't buy it here, I'd get it from China.

View attachment 97333

I need a Regulator like in the first picture. And it has to work with Dr... SCBA masks. And for european standards for gas cylinders.

I wouldn't buy it here, I'd get it from China.

View attachment 97333

I need a Regulator like in the first picture you posted. And it has to work with Dr... SCBA masks. And for european standards for gas cylinders.

Hi, @ertn -- A SCBA mask is superior to a SCUBA. First, it is generally less expensive than a SCUBA mask. But more importantly, you can breathe naturally with an SCBA mask; whereas, with a SCUBA mask, you would need to breathe through your mouth. Your nose is generally pinched. Best, G

Hi @Greenberg , what do you think ist the best way at all for using the inert gas method?

 

[GasMonkey]

I need a Regulator like in the first picture you posted. And it has to work with Dr... SCBA masks. And for european standards for gas cylinders.

I sent you a PM.

 

[bero4666]

Does anyone have any reservations in using the scuba scba mask instead of the bag?

 

[GasMonkey]

Does anyone have any reservations in using the scuba scba mask instead of the bag?

If it's SCBA (or SCUBA on Positive Pressure) + Nitrogen, I have no reservations.

PP (Positive Pressure) is needed to make the seal perfect at all times. SCBA always runs on PP (that's why firefighers are immune to the toxic fumes when they enter fires), SCUBA depends on the model of the demand valve (some are PP are some are Non-PP).

SCBA, SCUBA on PP, EEDB Hood <--- Much better than the manually crafted ExitBag.

 

[Efilismislife]

Just wondering if anyone knows if setting the LPM higher is still ok? Necause from what i know if its Lower than whats needed it wont be effective right?
but if its higher, thats ok?

if thats true i guess setting it up higher would be better just in case so it wont fail right?

i kind of forgot the setting for argon regulstor for nitrogen gas
i think its its 15 or 20
Might have to search for it again :(

Interesting---Maybe I'll do 25 LPM instead of 15(certainly works faster), although K said 15 LPM is still ok with the EEDB hood

 

[outrider567]

Just wondering if anyone knows if setting the LPM higher is still ok? Necause from what i know if its Lower than whats needed it wont be effective right?
but if its higher, thats ok?

if thats true i guess setting it up higher would be better just in case so it wont fail right?

i kind of forgot the setting for argon regulstor for nitrogen gas
i think its its 15 or 20
Might have to search for it again :(

I think the Argon setting is supposed to be set at 12.5 as per Greenberg---For Nitrogen, 15 LPM is standard but 25 LPM I think is just to make it work faster, lose consciousness quicker but the end result is the same

 

[Efilismislife]

I think the Argon setting is supposed to be set at 12.5 as per Greenberg---For Nitrogen, 15 LPM is standard but 25 LPM I think is just to make it work faster, lose consciousness quicker but the end result is the same

ok
But is it ok to use 15 lpm for nitrogen gas with argon regulator?

 

[ertn]

Hi, @ertn -- A SCBA mask is superior to a SCUBA. First, it is generally less expensive than a SCUBA mask. But more importantly, you can breathe naturally with an SCBA mask; whereas, with a SCUBA mask, you would need to breathe through your mouth. Your nose is generally pinched. Best, G

Thank you for your assessment

I don't have a lot of experience with SCBA or SCUBA.

For me the system has to be simple, without much tinkering.

If I have a positive pressure full face scuba mask with the ability to breathe through the nose and mouth, is there still a disadvantage compared to the SCBA mask?

The costs are also not really higher compared to the EM stuff. I would only buy a complete set that is easy to snap together. And EM's are the only ones I've found. I would also have to pay taxes and duties here.

Does a matching SCUBA package (nitrogen cylinder, adapter, 1st stage regulator, full face mask with integrated 2nd stage regulator and free breathing, possibly diving hood for a better fit) have a disadvantage compared to an EM SCBA kit? Or a comparable one I don't know yet.

It's easier for me to buy the SCUBA system without importing it from abroad. That's the main reason why I tend to do it. But I could also imagine importing a SCBA kit if it is significantly better.

Are there methods that may be even better than SCBA or SCUBA? Without much installation effort.

 

[GasMonkey]

If I have a positive pressure full face scuba mask with the ability to breathe through the nose and mouth, is there still a disadvantage compared to the SCBA mask?

Should be the same.

Does a matching SCUBA package (nitrogen cylinder, adapter, 1st stage regulator, full face mask with integrated 2nd stage regulator and free breathing, possibly diving hood for a better fit) have a disadvantage compared to an EM kit?

EM kit is slightly superior due to running on "native mode" without using any adapter, since the use of adapters is unrecommended on high pressure applications (this doesn't mean that using the adapter won't work, they work fine as proved by SlovakGuy and LetzteAusfahrt, you can see the adapter connected on both photos). At the end of the day, you only need the system to run for 3~5min, it's extremely fast. Every SCBA/SCUBA setup that you can build by yourself will need to use an air-to-nitrogen adapter in the regulator-to-cylinder connection.

Are there methods that may be even better than SCBA or SCUBA? Without much installation effort.

No.
The Sarco will be better when it's available for use in a demedicalized way (without the individual having to be approved by doctors and all that crap).

 

[ertn]

Thank you for the detailed answer.

I've been thinking about positive pressure.
The positive pressure has the advantage that in the event of a leak it reduces the inflow of oxygen and carbon dioxide-containing air, but the nitrogen consumption in the event of a leak can be significantly higher than that of a normal-pressure device and this significantly reduce the time until the cylinder is emptied.

Mask slipping while unconscious is possible. And you can hardly rule it out.

I think a larger cylinder (min. 5 liters, 200 bar) is safer. Or better 10L?

The Sarco looks fine. But not easy to biuld by myself even I had a 3D printing device.

And the flow have to be much higher. It will need much N2 or even a generator for it.

 

[GasMonkey]

The positive pressure has the advantage that in the event of a leak it reduces the inflow of oxygen and carbon dioxide-containing air

A leak wouldn't break the seal, the demand valve would cover it by increasing the pressure accordingly to always maintain it some millibars over the ambient pressure (this would increase the gas usage as you have assumed) so the external gas (air) never enters the mask.

Mask slipping while unconscious is possible. And you can hardly rule it out.

For air to enter the mask, a HUGE leak would be needed, one so big that it would surpass the max output pressure of the demand valve which is around 7.5~10bars, which is unrealistic in a SCBA/SCUBA mask with 5-6 attachment points that is gonna be used for 3~5 mins.

Think about firefighters that enter fires wearing the SCBA, while doing heavy physical labour at the same time, and the seal never breaks. They are surrounded by extremely toxic fumes for 20mins and they never breath them (only the gas inside the cylinder).

I think a larger cylinder (min. 5 liters, 200 bar) is safer.

Mine is 10L 200bar 4.0 (99.99%). 5L is fine too.

SlovakGuy used a 6L cylinder and when they found him it was at 87 bars.

 

[outrider567]

ok
But is it ok to use 15 lpm for nitrogen gas with argon regulator?

Probably, but Greenberg would know for sure, PM his opinion, must make sure with your set-up

 

[Greenberg]

I didn't have much time to research further.

I live in the EU and I looked for the Dr**** and found SCBA masks. In addition, a regulator that fits into the mask - quite expensive.

The hose is not very thick and I doubt that it is suitable for high pressure. I found out it's just the second stage regulator.

The regulator of the first stage is integrated in the complete equipment. So far I haven't been able to find a separate one without the belt system. Except used goods, but better is new.

Of course, I could just buy a standard regulator and mount it on the cylinder. But then I don't know how high to set it so that it works well with the second stage regulator. And I don't know how to connect them. This will be complicated. I want it easy to use.

I could also buy the complete system, but then it would quickly cost me thousands of euros. And I would have to remove the acoustic warning device for little pressure.

I need a Regulator like in the first picture. And it has to work with Dr... SCBA masks. And for european standards for gas cylinders.

I need a Regulator like in the first picture you posted. And it has to work with Dr... SCBA masks. And for european standards for gas cylinders.

Hi @Greenberg , what do you think ist the best way at all for using the inert gas method?

As we are aware, there are 2 variants of the EB method: constant flow and on-demand flow.

I prefer the latter but with an SCBA mask instead of a SCUBA one. As mentioned prior, breathing through a SCUBA mask is unnatural; with the nose pitched, the user must breathe solely through their mouth.

Unless the user is a trained SCUBA diver, it is another consideration that hinders the adoption of SCUBA for CTB purposes, particularly for non-divers.

Best, G

 

[GhostNote]

I have an 80c of Helium from an industrial gas dealer.

I later bought a flow regulator off A, but it's for Argon. It has a PSI meter and a chamber on top that has a ball bearing in it that says carbon monoxide.

I'm not sure how to convert this if possible and I don't have a ton of money to spend to change my setup. I've already invested $300 into it and I am extremely disabled and unemployed.

If anyone can help me understand how I can make this work or knows of an affordable alternative please let me know.

 

[befree]

As mentioned prior, breathing through a SCUBA mask is unnatural; with the nose pitched, the user must breathe solely through their mouth.

Unless the user is a trained SCUBA diver, it is another consideration that hinders the adoption of SCUBA for CTB purposes, particularly for non-divers.

Don´t agree. If you remove the part you put in your mouth, you can breathe normally through your mouth and nose. I have tested it. But even with the mouthpiece I had no problems to breathe. And I´m not a trained scuba diver. We're not talking about diving for hours. I think both methods are good, SCBA and SCUBA, if you have the right equipment.

 

[GasMonkey]

If the SCUBA mask in comfortable (free breathing thru nose and mouth), with a demand valve working on Possitive Pressure, it should be similar to SCBA.

 

[becool]

After bag is fully infated where incoming gas goes? Does not bag blow up

 

[GasMonkey]

After bag is fully infated where incoming gas goes? Does not bag blow up

Excess gas is released thru the gap between your neck and the bag (along with the CO₂).

I've already invested $300 into it

Why did you spend $300 on an helium cylinder + argon regulator instead of buying a nitrogen cylinder + nitrogen regulator?

 

[becool]

But there is no gap between bag and neck because it is tight. And if gape than air come from there

 

[GasMonkey]

But there is no gap between bag and neck because it is tight

You have to leave a gap so CO₂ can escape, you can't let CO₂ build up.

And if gape than air come from there

The positive pressure inside the bag won't let air get in.

 

[becool]

You have to leave a gap so CO₂ can escape, you can't let CO₂ build up.


The positive pressure inside the bag won't let air get in.

But how can we say CO2 is escape against gas pressure insted it is inhale again

 

[GasMonkey]

With the optimal flow rate (15 LPM) the exhaled CO₂ is flushed away instead of accumulate.

BTW I recommend SCBA/SCUBA (which have CO₂ exhalation valves so CO₂ is no problem at all) instead of the manually crafted ExitBag.

 

[becool]

But in scuba how can we sure that exhalation valve remove CO2 instead of gas

 

[GasMonkey]

We can be sure because it's a technology that has existed and been perfected for decades, used daily by firefighters and divers with unmatched reliability.