Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Sparks35]

By looking at the (bad) pictures of those Taprite 742 i don't think so. These look like pure pressure gauges wihtout a volume per minute scale. (Just psi/MPa and bar?)

Pressure regulators with the additional feature of flow measurement via gas outlet through a constrictor are quite rare.

Exactly my concern.

I also have the Harbor freight CO2/Argon flow regulators at my local store. However, I'm concerned about the conversion that has been done on this thread for the LPM and the reported failed attempts using this regulator for nitrogen.

 

[fightingsioux]

By looking at the (bad) pictures of those Taprite 742 i don't think so. These look like pure pressure gauges wihtout a volume per minute scale. (Just psi/MPa and bar?)

Pressure regulators with the additional feature of flow measurement via gas outlet through a constrictor are quite rare.

No, this is wrong. Taprite makes many regulators, almost all of the gauges show the flow rate in red. Don't believe this, just email or call the company, or call any brewing supply or welding supply store, you don't have to give your name or why you're asking the question, JUST ASK THEM! Over and out on this with you.

Exactly my concern.

I also have the Harbor freight CO2/Argon flow regulators at my local store. However, I'm concerned about the conversion that has been done on this thread for the LPM and the reported failed attempts using this regulator for nitrogen.

A regulator for compressed inert gases does not care what gas it's using. All inert gas cylinders share the same fitting. All inert gases will do the trick for what we're talking about here.

People are WAY too focused on flow rate. A professional welder working with a specific gas for a specific metal using the size tank he has is concerned with flow rate (a higher rate creates a hotter and different-shaped flame tip, you need enough gas in the tank to finish the job!) For the purpose discussed on this forum, any reasonable flow rate will do the trick, will maintain enough gas in the bag for the task at hand. Bag, tube, gas: fill bag with gas, breathe in a few times, done.

 

[frees]

K, but for everyone else:
Have looked at Taprite's website, pictures, instructions and technical documentation. They dont have a single product which can measure or control volumetric flow.
They cater for the beverage market where gases are applied under pressure, control of flow rate plays no role.

 

[MissNietzsche]

K, but for everyone else:
Have looked at Taprite's website, pictures, instructions and technical documentation. They dont have a single product which can measure or control volumetric flow.
They cater for the beverage market where gases are applied under pressure, control of flow rate plays no role.

You can use one made for oxygen...at least for nitrogen only

 

[frees]

You can use one made for oxygen...at least for nitrogen only

Yes, but for the folks in the US a nice proper flow rate regulator that is not as expensive as Maxx Dog or a oxygen regulator + adapter would be nice. They are sold all over the place here in Europe. Will google when i find the time.

(For the US the argon route is another option: Welding regulators with flow meter are available cheap and abundant, as are argon cylinders. There seems to be a slow clambdown on nitrogen in the US?)

 

[fightingsioux]

K, but for everyone else:
Have looked at Taprite's website, pictures, instructions and technical documentation. They dont have a single product which can measure or control volumetric flow.
They cater for the beverage market where gases are applied under pressure, control of flow rate plays no role.

This is so incorrect that I'm going to go back on what I said and try one more time, though as a retired teacher and longtime welder I recognize someone who knows they're right, no matter what the facts say:

Pressure and flow-rate are two sides of the same coin. Open your mouth wide and blow out all the air in your lungs at a fairly constant rate (speed). Then purse your lips as small as you can and blow out all the air in your lungs at about the same rate (speed). The amount of air in your lungs is finite, the same, it didn't change in either case. But the pressure and flow-rate changed because of the size of the aperture (your lips).

You can easily Google the mathematical formula that allows you--with a set aperture size (the nozzle) and a set tank size-- to calculate the flow rate if you know the pressure, or the pressure if you know the flow rate. It's not rocket science, but does take some basic math ability. To save people the trouble, the regulator gauge gives both numbers in different colors.

Again, if you or anyone else is in doubt, take five minutes and call the company or any store.

For the intended use on this forum, any inert gas will do. A precise flow-rate is just not necessary. Nor is a precise bag size (within reason) or a precise tube diameter (within reason) or a precise tank size (within reason). All reasonable variations of this very simple method will produce enough gas in the bag to do the trick.

 

[frees]

You are correct, however those Taprite regulators dont have a fixed nozzle. Their gauges have two different scales for imperial and metric pressures.

I only have seen one regulator that uses this principle and that was a russian one.

Edit. Some welding equipment also works this way, but with the constrictor downstream from the bottle regulator.

 

[fightingsioux]

This is a basic, inexpensive regulator available from Harbor Freight:

Harbor Freight Tools – Quality Tools at Discount Prices Since 1977

Harbor Freight buys their top quality tools from the same factories that supply our competitors. We cut out the middleman and pass the savings to you!

www.harborfreight.com

It will work with any size tank and any gas.

 

[frees]

Oh, yes, that one works that way! I am more familiar with the European market. But i am pretty sure that those Taprites are pure pressure regulators.
Edit: Isn't CGA 580 also used for nitrogen in the US? Than this Harbor Freight regulator would be suitable. Also has the right flow rate range

 

[fightingsioux]

Completely off-topic (in a way!) but I'm going to post it anyway:

All this talk about gas and regulators and such has made me think about welding in general. I was an artist and a teacher, I learned welding many decades ago from a welder so I could use it in my art. But there is a tremendous need for professional welders!

I've seen a lot of younger posters here saying that they don't know what to do with their lives. Many have other problems, and I respect that. But if you can't find anything to do, consider welding instead of CTB! (Now there's a funny advertising slogan for the industry!)

According to the American Welding Society, the welding shortage will reach a deficit of 400,000 workers by 2024. Older welders are reaching retirement age, and younger welders aren't replacing them fast enough. In fact, the average age of a welder is 55, and fewer than 20 percent are under the age of 35. I believe that a similar situation exists in Europe.

There are hundred, if not thousands, of technical colleges in the U.S. and worldwide. Just for example, here's one: https://www.welding.org/ Most courses are 6 months to a year. Loans are available. You come out a certified welder. Men or women.

You can get a good job easily and quickly. Starting salaries are around $40K a year, after 5 years or so you should be around $75K a year. Specialties like underwater welding pay even more. If you're willing to go to places like Saudi Arabia or the middle east in general, salaries are even higher ($100K +).

I know this may seem like a silly post on this site, but what the hell, thought I'd put it out there.

 

[Sparks35]

Oh, yes, that one works that way! I am more familiar with the European market. But i am pretty sure that those Taprites are pure pressure regulators.
Edit: Isn't CGA 580 also used for nitrogen in the US? Than this Harbor Freight regulator would be suitable. Also has the right flow rate range

There has been quite a bit of back and forth at what to set the flow rate to on an argon regulator. And whether or not it would be different from one model to the next. Ugh.

 

[fightingsioux]

There has been quite a bit of back and forth at what to set the flow rate to on an argon regulator. And whether or not it would be different from one model to the next. Ugh.

Don't obsess over the flow rate! I can't say this enough: just about any rate will do. Hopefully you've read the first page or two of this thread that tells you everything you need to know, or any of the many other sources available for info about this simple and foolproof method.

Assuming that you have, imagine you're at the stage where the bag is pushed up with the elastic band on your forehead and most of the bag above your head. You scrunch all the air out of the bag; you allow it to fill with the inert gas. This amount of gas alone will almost certainly cause you to pass out. You exhale, pull the bag over your head, the elastic band snugs around your neck allowing your exhaled carbon dioxide to escape but keeping the gas in. You take a good deep breath, then just breath normally. As I said, the volume of gas already in the pre-filled bag will take you halfway there. In 10 -30 seconds you'll pass out, and you won't be worried about flow rate! :-)
At that point, absolutely any reasonable flow rate of any inert gas using any regulator will maintain enough gas in the bag to cause death within a couple of minutes. A setting anywhere around 15-19 is fine.

 

[Sparks35]

I appreciate your thorough replies. It has been very helpful.

I've purchased that harbor freight regulator. Now I just need to find a compatible hose. All they had there were two-hose assemblies for acetylene (and even so, a single one of those hoses seem to be too heavy to tape inside the exit bag). So now I suppose I need to find a hose that connects to this regulator, or some fittings that will allow me to connect a hose.

 

[fightingsioux]

I appreciate your thorough replies. It has been very helpful.

I've purchased that harbor freight regulator. Now I just need to find a compatible hose. All they had there were two-hose assemblies for acetylene (and even so, a single one of those hoses seem to be too heavy to tape inside the exit bag). So now I suppose I need to find a hose that connects to this regulator, or some fittings that will allow me to connect a hose.

Do you have a big box store or a decent hardware store near where you live?

 

[Sparks35]

Do you have a big box store or a decent hardware store near where you live?

Both Lowe's and Home Depot

 

[fightingsioux]

Both Lowe's and Home Depot

Take the regulator into the store. You want something called a hose barb adapter, will look something like this:

Get the size that screws in correctly, I think it's 3/8" but don't remember for sure, just try it in the store. Then get about 6' of clear plastic tubing, again the size that fits over the barb, I think it's 1/4" but try in the store.

That's it, you've got that part done. Now you need a full tank of inert gas and a properly constructed bag (easy to make, tons of videos and instructions here and online).

 

[frees]

There has been quite a bit of back and forth at what to set the flow rate to on an argon regulator.

On a medical oxygen regulator (including Maxx Dog) or one like the Harbor Freight that works via a constrictor (showing the flow rate in liters per minute or cubic feet per minute/hour on a round gauge that looks like the second gauge that shows the tank pressure) you dont have to worry about conversion factors. There is no difference in flow rate between argon, helium and nitrogen with such devices.

"Floating ball" type flow meters

show different rates for different gases. Here the difference in the density of the gases leads to difference in buoyancy of the ball. The type of gas the meter is calibrated for is indicated on the scale.

using oxygen flowmeter with argon - WeldingWeb™ - Welding forum for pros and enthusiasts

Don't obsess over the flow rate! I can't say this enough: just about any rate will do.

Yes, thank you. Many people used this method successfully in the early days when the recipe was "open the valve on the balloon tank a bit until gas flows out". A decent sized exit bag filled with inert gas will probably do you in even without any ensuing gas flow.
That today everybody obsesses about flow rate is due to the Australian group (now Exit International) and Nitschke's "Peaceful Pill Handbook". Probably confronted with people asking for less ambigous instructions they came up with using two balloon tanks and then a flow control nozzle they developed.
With the switch to nitrogen and higher pressure, industrial cylinders due to the diluted balloon helium regulators must be used. When a regulator is needed to reduce the tank pressure why not get one that also allows setting a flow rate? Industrial gas cylinders offer higher capacity than balloon tanks and gas flow over a longer time. While not strictly needed (any gas flow over, say, 15 minutes is basically useless) it offers a safety margin and room for errors.

A continous gas flow helps
-the bag to stay inflated
-ensures that no air leaks in over time
-flushes out the fraction of air that is still in the bag when pulled down
-flushes out CO2, which is problematic with smaller bags and if loss of consciousness takes longer (large air fraction in the bag when pulled down)
-peace of mind, room for errors

The 15 liters per minute that the PPH recommends is not set in stone. Its a ballpark number with as bit of safety margin.
PPH is to blame for over-emphasizing the importance of CO2 flushing. With a bag of a volume of 3 gallons / 15 liters and no gas flow it takes many minutes until CO2 concentration becomes a problem. At that time one is already deeply unconscious. (And breathing already stopped or about to stop)

 

[fightingsioux]

On a medical oxygen regulator (including Maxx Dog) or one like the Harbor Freight that works via a constrictor (showing the flow rate in liters per minute or cubic feet per minute/hour on a round gauge that looks like the second gauge that shows the tank pressure) you dont have to worry about conversion factors. There is no difference in flow rate between argon, helium and nitrogen with such devices.

"Floating ball" type flow meters

show different rates for different gases. Here the difference in the density of the gases leads to difference in buoyancy of the ball. The type of gas the meter is calibrated for is indicated on the scale.

using oxygen flowmeter with argon - WeldingWeb™ - Welding forum for pros and enthusiasts

Yes, thank you. Many people used this method successfully in the early days when the recipe was "open the valve on the balloon tank a bit until gas flows out". A decent sized exit bag filled with inert gas will probably do you in even without any ensuing gas flow.
That today everybody obsesses about flow rate is due to the Australian group (now Exit International) and Nitschke's "Peaceful Pill Handbook". Probably confronted with people asking for less ambigous instructions they came up with using two balloon tanks and then a flow control nozzle they developed.
With the switch to nitrogen and higher pressure, industrial cylinders due to the diluted balloon helium regulators must be used. When a regulator is needed to reduce the tank pressure why not get one that also allows setting a flow rate? Industrial gas cylinders offer higher capacity than balloon tanks and gas flow over a longer time. While not strictly needed (any gas flow over, say, 15 minutes is basically useless) it offers a safety margin and room for errors.

A continous gas flow helps
-the bag to stay inflated
-ensures that no air leaks in over time
-flushes out the fraction of air that is still in the bag when pulled down
-flushes out CO2, which is problematic with smaller bags and if loss of consciousness takes longer (large air fraction in the bag when pulled down)
-peace of mind, room for errors

The 15 liters per minute that the PPH recommends is not set in stone. Its a ballpark number with as bit of safety margin.
PPH is to blame for over-emphasizing the importance of CO2 flushing. With a bag of a volume of 3 gallons / 15 liters and no gas flow it takes many minutes until CO2 concentration becomes a problem. At that time one is already deeply unconscious. (And breathing already stopped or about to stop)
[/Q

On a medical oxygen regulator (including Maxx Dog) or one like the Harbor Freight that works via a constrictor (showing the flow rate in liters per minute or cubic feet per minute/hour on a round gauge that looks like the second gauge that shows the tank pressure) you dont have to worry about conversion factors. There is no difference in flow rate between argon, helium and nitrogen with such devices.

"Floating ball" type flow meters

show different rates for different gases. Here the difference in the density of the gases leads to difference in buoyancy of the ball. The type of gas the meter is calibrated for is indicated on the scale.

using oxygen flowmeter with argon - WeldingWeb™ - Welding forum for pros and enthusiasts

Yes, thank you. Many people used this method successfully in the early days when the recipe was "open the valve on the balloon tank a bit until gas flows out". A decent sized exit bag filled with inert gas will probably do you in even without any ensuing gas flow.
That today everybody obsesses about flow rate is due to the Australian group (now Exit International) and Nitschke's "Peaceful Pill Handbook". Probably confronted with people asking for less ambigous instructions they came up with using two balloon tanks and then a flow control nozzle they developed.
With the switch to nitrogen and higher pressure, industrial cylinders due to the diluted balloon helium regulators must be used. When a regulator is needed to reduce the tank pressure why not get one that also allows setting a flow rate? Industrial gas cylinders offer higher capacity than balloon tanks and gas flow over a longer time. While not strictly needed (any gas flow over, say, 15 minutes is basically useless) it offers a safety margin and room for errors.

A continous gas flow helps
-the bag to stay inflated
-ensures that no air leaks in over time
-flushes out the fraction of air that is still in the bag when pulled down
-flushes out CO2, which is problematic with smaller bags and if loss of consciousness takes longer (large air fraction in the bag when pulled down)
-peace of mind, room for errors

The 15 liters per minute that the PPH recommends is not set in stone. Its a ballpark number with as bit of safety margin.
PPH is to blame for over-emphasizing the importance of CO2 flushing. With a bag of a volume of 3 gallons / 15 liters and no gas flow it takes many minutes until CO2 concentration becomes a problem. At that time one is already deeply unconscious. (And breathing already stopped or about to stop)

My answer was directed to Sparks so there's no need to thank me! :-)

Wordy, over-technical, copied-from-Google replies just complicate a simple method. They needlessly confuse people who are already stressed. Nothing in this twisted mass of information added a darn thing to the simple statement, "Don't obsess about flow rates."

Drop it. Question answered. Move on.

 

[Sparks35]

Take the regulator into the store. You want something called a hose barb adapter, will look something like this:
View attachment 20464
Get the size that screws in correctly, I think it's 3/8" but don't remember for sure, just try it in the store. Then get about 6' of clear plastic tubing, again the size that fits over the barb, I think it's 1/4" but try in the store.

That's it, you've got that part done. Now you need a full tank of inert gas and a properly constructed bag (easy to make, tons of videos and instructions here and online).

Hmmm. Got a problem. I went and got the appropriate sized fittings but it seems their NPT threads don't match what's on the regulator.

 

[fightingsioux]

Hmmm. Got a problem. I went and got the appropriate sized fittings but it seems their NPT threads don't match what's on the regulator.

You needed just one fitting, not fittings: a hose barb. Did you take the regulator into the store with you as I suggested?

 

[Sparks35]

You needed just one fitting, not fittings: a hose barb. Did you take the regulator into the store with you as I suggested?

Yes, and the hose barb threading doesn't match the regulator's threads. Neither did any other fittings.

 

[fightingsioux]

Yes, and the hose barb threading doesn't match the regulator's threads. Neither did any other fittings.

My regulator is home and I'm out-of-state or else I'd look at it and tell you the correct hose barb size.

Either go to a good hardware store, or go to a store that sells equipment for home brewing, or call/email Harbor Freight or the manufacturer of the regulator and just ask what diameter hose barb you need. $2 part, very common, you should be able to find one.

 

[Sparks35]

I think I'm all good to go. Just one last bit of math I want to make sure is right.

'Size 40' tank of nitrogen bought from Airgas.
7.8l water capacity?
Ar/CO2 Pressure gauge reads 150 bar.

7.8*(150*1.013)=1155 liters

That all look right?

And assuming that this regulator may not be spot on for Nitrogen, I turn the flow up to 19Lpm. Worst case scenario, it actually flows at all 19Lpm and my tank is empty in 60 minutes?

Thanks!

 

[EngineExhaust]

Hello, how are the attached photos?

 

[Passersby]

Hello engine exhaust, yeah that all looks like it will work fine to me. I have been looking at this methods for quite some time too and have most of the supplies. You just need tubing to slide onto the barb. Then you would need to tape it into the turkey bag about halfway up or just like 3-4 inches maybe. I'm not sure if this part mattes or not. Put bag on forehead. Squeeze out all air. Then fill with nitrogen at 15-20 lpm. Exhale out all air. Pull bag down and start breathing normal. I think you'll lose consciousness within a minute or so then die within the next half hour or sooner. Several people have used this throughout time but they don't always report on it. Would be best to lay back in a bed. Kelley Caitlin used this method only with helium. It was in the news. I need to do this soon.

 

[Motherfly]

Wait, is it N or N2 we need...

Nitrogen is N
Dinitrogen is N2

People keep talking about Nitrogen and N2. It's not the same thing...

 

[pane]

Wait, is it N or N2 we need...

Nitrogen is N
Dinitrogen is N2

People keep talking about Nitrogen and N. It's not the same thing...

Nitrogen is the inert gas you need. You can also use argon for the exit bag method. The letter "N" is typically used here to refer to the euthanasia drug Nembutal.The confusion comes from the fact that too many people on the forum like to abbreviate every little thing instead of typing it out.

 

[Motherfly]

Nitrogen is the inert gas you need. You can also use argon for the exit bag method. The letter "N" is typically used here to refer to the euthanasia drug Nembutal.The confusion comes from the fact that too many people on the forum like to abbreviate every little thing instead of typing it out.

Yeah I knew that. But why going out of their way and adding "2" at the end?

 

[pane]

Yeah I knew that. But why going out of their way and adding "2" at the end?

I don't have an answer for you. I haven't read the entire megathread.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I think I'm all good to go. Just one last bit of math I want to make sure is right.

'Size 40' tank of nitrogen bought from Airgas.
7.8l water capacity?
Ar/CO2 Pressure gauge reads 150 bar.

7.8*(150*1.013)=1155 liters

That all look right?

And assuming that this regulator may not be spot on for Nitrogen, I turn the flow up to 19Lpm. Worst case scenario, it actually flows at all 19Lpm and my tank is empty in 60 minutes?

Thanks!

'Size 40' tank of nitrogen bought from Airgas.

How did you buy a nitrogen tank from Airgas? Did they ask you any questions? If so what did you say or answer?
I bought a 20' one online but now they seem to have banned any selling on Nitrogen tanks online but there is a local airgas store here and i thought about getting a 40' tank .

I should've bought a 40' when i had the chance.
What should i say to them ?