Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[AbyssalAlien]

For the method, noble gasses are better suited. Specifically pure helium and nitrogen. I have heard of argon also being suited, but I have not seen or read about an argon based exit bag.

 

[oono]

Are there people who will use the SCUBA method?

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

I'm wondering if you have to adjust the lpm from 15 lpm to 17 lpm with an argon regulator like this:

View attachment 152703

It says it can also be used for gases like Helium and CO2, so I'm guessing no, right?

Does it say anything about nitrogen? Then again, you could simply choose helium.

Is a 10-liter bottle of argon enough to get out?

Depends on what the pressure is. For instance, if it is 200 bar, then you have 2.000 liter (10 l * 200 bar) of compressed argon.

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

Does it say anything about nitrogen? Then again, you could simply choose helium.

No, but I read you can use it with nitrogen. I've already gotten the nitrogen tank, so unfortunately I can't choose helium.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

No a 10-liter bottle is hardly enough considering that you need 500 litres to exit with nitrogen, at least 45 min of gas to make sure you're dead.

You can't say that without knowing what the pressure (bar or PW) is. If the 10 l tank is 200 bar, then it contains 2.000 l of compressed argon. I have no idea about the differences between argon and nitrogen or what l/min should be set.

Also, 500 l nitrogen at 15 l/min., that's 33 minutes, so 500 l wouldn't be enough (even though death with helium occurs between 6 and 16 minutes, source: Dignified dying (Uitweg) by Boudewijn Chabot).

Important to note. Most helium tanks will have oxygen mixed with them and if you use one of those it will leave brain damaged instead.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. In the US (!) most helium tanks for balloons (!) are mixed with 20% oxygen to prevent people to ctb. However, if you get the industrial kind (helium can be used for welding) you can find tanks with 99,99% helium. I can get one of those delivered at home.

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

You can't say that without knowing what the pressure (bar or PW) is. If the 10 l tank is 200 bar, then it contains 2.000 l of compressed argon. I have no idea about the differences between argon and nitrogen or what l/min should be set.

Also, 500 l nitrogen at 15 l/min., that's 33 minutes, so 500 l wouldn't be enough (even though death with helium occurs between 6 and 16 minutes, source: Dignified dying (Uitweg) by Boudewijn Chabot).

I'm sorry, but that's not true. In the US (!) most helium tanks for balloons (!) are mixed with 20% oxygen to prevent people to ctb. However, if you get the industrial kind (helium can be used for welding) you can find tanks with 99,99% helium. I can get one of those delivered at home.

You're right, my numbers were off and I didn't take into account the bar of the tank. My apologies

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

No, but I read you can use it with nitrogen. I've already gotten the nitrogen tank, so unfortunately I can't choose helium.

Ah, like that. Yes, that's what I've read here: you can use an argon regulator for a nitrogen tank (if the connections fit), but then you'd need to set it to 15 l/min instead of 17 l/min. HOWEVER, I'm not sure this is correct. There seems to be some discussion about converting argon/nitrogen. If you have enough, I guess it wouldn't matter much, because then - in theory - you could set it to 25 l/min and still have it running for over an hour.

 

[thot88]

You're right, my numbers were off and I didn't take into account the bar of the tank. My apologies

Yep, that's 200 bars. Must buy this bottle

 

[Shunya]

Do you know if there is anything I need to do in advance that'll increase my chances of not missing the bus using nitrogen? So far here's what I got:

1. ) Go to remote location (already picked).
2. ) Test purity in EEBD hood with mannequin head, aiming for below 0. (nitrogen is at least 99.5%)
3. ) Flow rate with argon regulator around 35 LPM, (+40 cf canister).
3. ) Drink some beers while testing until buzzed (reason for during instead of after below).
4. ) Hyperventilate / deep breaths for two minutes while the hood band is on my forehead filling up.
5.) Put the hood on and try to watch some videos.

I'm not all too familiar with the anatomy of the hood as I'll refine my process when it arrives, I'm assuming it has some neck band to prevent gases going in & out.

I know drinking can impair my motor functions but its at the trade-off of trying to approach this as I would any other activity; like I'm cooking a new food recipe. I worry if I am methodical to an insane degree it'll risk flaring up my SI.

Few last details, I'm doing this in the backseat of my car sitting / partially leaning back on the floor with the canister in between my arms and legs. I'm 6'4 (193 cm) and around 200 lbs (90.8 kg).

Is there anything that looks off in my plan? Additionally, would alcohol or any specific diet beforehand physiologically alter how I interact with the gas?


Thanks in advance, and to contribute back to anyone reading this, if you want to go this route order the hood waaaaaaaaaay ahead of time if you are in the US.

Have you checked if the purge valve works? Does yours have a band to hold it to your nose and mouth inside the hood?
Mine doesn't have a band and I'm not sure it works because when I tried on my hood, even while holding the purge valve from the outside, the hood would expand and contract with my breathing. Kudaphillips wrote that the buildup of co2 might make things uncomfortable, whilst Tearsintherain wrote that a little co2 is ok.

Also, why 35lpm if I may ask? I thought that with an argon regulator 20lpm will do? Since argon is a heavier gas 20lpm would be equal to 25lpm with a nitrogen regulator.

For eebd hoods the hose won't connect to a regulator properly. You'll have to cut the connector off the hose (the hose itself should still be 1/4' ID) and then attach the hose with a worm gear clamp. But other then that, everything should indeed be set up already.

I didn't cut my connector off. I just attached it to another hose. It's a snug fit and I plan to fasten it with hose clamps. Is that ok you think?

 

[PlannedforPeru]

Have you checked if the purge valve works? Does yours have a band to hold it to your nose and mouth inside the hood?
Mine doesn't have a band and I'm not sure it works because when I tried on my hood, even while holding the purge valve from the outside, the hood would expand and contract with my breathing. Kudaphillips wrote that the buildup of co2 might make things uncomfortable, whilst Tearsintherain wrote that a little co2 is ok.

Also, why 35lpm if I may ask? I thought that with an argon regulator 20lpm will do? Since argon is a heavier gas 20lpm would be equal to 25lpm with a nitrogen regulator.

I haven't tested my hood(s) yet as they just arrived so I'm not sure if the purge valve works yet, but I'm planning on testing it this weekend.

And for the second part is that because nitrogen would flow more freely on account of it being less dense? I've seen discussion of the conversion going both ways in setting it higher and lower and it's got me kinda stumped atm.

 

[Msvr]

I didn't cut my connector off. I just attached it to another hose. It's a snug fit and I plan to fasten it with hose clamps. Is that ok you think?

Yeah should be absolutely fine. After you get everything set up get some soapy water or Windex and spray it on the hoses to double check there aren't any leaks.

I haven't tested my hood(s) yet as they just arrived so I'm not sure if the purge valve works yet, but I'm planning on testing it this weekend.

And for the second part is that because nitrogen would flow more freely on account of it being less dense? I've seen discussion of the conversion going both ways in setting it higher and lower and it's got me kinda stumped atm.

So I have a N2 cylinder and an argon regulator. Same as you I was confused about the conflicting information on the forums. Some people said set the regulator to 13 lpm, others said 17lpm. So I just did some test on my own. I got a 18.9 liter (5 gallon) jug of water. I then filled up a bathtub full of water. I then stuck the gas hose inside the jug and flipped the jug upside down inside the bath of water. This creates a positive pressure that keeps all the water inside the jug, upside down. Finally you turn the gas on and you can calculate the exact flow. If it takes exactly 60 seconds, that would be 18.9 lpm. If it took 90 seconds, that would be 12.6 lpm, etc. Based on my multiple tests, it took 18-19 lpm indicated on the regulator to achieve an actual rate of 15 lpm. That may include a bit of error from the couple seconds it takes to initially turn the gas on, or not keeping the jug perfectly perpendicular the the ground. But it is enough the prove that IF USING AN ARGON REGULATOR WITH N2, SET THE REGULATOR HIGH, TO 17-18 LPM!

 

[Allla]

Hi! Say me please, if I have metastases in the lungs, Exit Bag will not work? Or it's worth trying?

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

Yeah should be absolutely fine. After you get everything set up get some soapy water or Windex and spray it on the hoses to double check there aren't any leaks.


So I have a N2 cylinder and an argon regulator. Same as you I was confused about the conflicting information on the forums. Some people said set the regulator to 13 lpm, others said 17lpm. So I just did some test on my own. I got a 18.9 liter (5 gallon) jug of water. I then filled up a bathtub full of water. I then stuck the gas hose inside the jug and flipped the jug upside down inside the bath of water. This creates a positive pressure that keeps all the water inside the jug, upside down. Finally you turn the gas on and you can calculate the exact flow. If it takes exactly 60 seconds, that would be 18.9 lpm. If it took 90 seconds, that would be 12.6 lpm, etc. Based on my multiple tests, it took 18-19 lpm indicated on the regulator to achieve an actual rate of 15 lpm. That may include a bit of error from the couple seconds it takes to initially turn the gas on, or not keeping the jug perfectly perpendicular the the ground. But it is enough the prove that IF USING AN ARGON REGULATOR WITH N2, SET THE REGULATOR HIGH, TO 17-18 LPM!

Thanks for conducting that test, I really appreciate the insight.

Edit: I got a regulator that says it's for argon and also helium and CO2. How does that work though? Wouldn't the lpm conversion be different for all three gases? Like what's 15 lpm for argon is not for helium and co2, just like it isn't for nitrogen?

 

[Msvr]

Thanks for conducting that test, I really appreciate the insight.

Edit: I got a regulator that says it's for argon and also helium and CO2. How does that work though? Wouldn't the lpm conversion be different for all three gases? Like what's 15 lpm for argon is not for helium and co2, just like it isn't for nitrogen?

Argon, CO2, and helium all have different density so your right that they should have different regulators. The ad is probably just incorrect, or for welding use the difference in density between gases isn't great enough for it to matter. I would set the regulator to 17 lpm, even if you're a little high it won't matter. Better to be high than low.

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

Argon, CO2, and helium all have different density so your right that they should have different regulators. The ad is probably just incorrect, or for welding use the difference in density between gases isn't great enough for it to matter. I would set the regulator to 17 lpm, even if you're a little high it won't matter. Better to be high than low.

Okay thank you, I plan on setting it to 17 lpm, especially after that test you've done. I looked it up on chatgpt, and it said that the regulator uses a standard reference typically calibrated to one gas and has a conversion chart for the other gases.

 

[PlannedforPeru]

Have you checked if the purge valve works? Does yours have a band to hold it to your nose and mouth inside the hood?
Mine doesn't have a band and I'm not sure it works because when I tried on my hood, even while holding the purge valve from the outside, the hood would expand and contract with my breathing.

So I just tried on my hood for a bit before I start assembling the set-up over the weekend but my purge valve is more just like a hole than anything.

When it breathe deep the hood expands and contracts ever so slightly and I didn't need to hold anything to my mouth. It's super snug almost uncomfortably so but I do have a pretty large head, if SI kicks in it might take around 20 seconds to pull it off. I'll send a picture of the one I have, it's just the stock photo of it though.

Spoiler: Hood Image(s)

 

[Shunya]

Yeah should be absolutely fine. After you get everything set up get some soapy water or Windex and spray it on the hoses to double check there aren't any leaks.


So I have a N2 cylinder and an argon regulator. Same as you I was confused about the conflicting information on the forums. Some people said set the regulator to 13 lpm, others said 17lpm. So I just did some test on my own. I got a 18.9 liter (5 gallon) jug of water. I then filled up a bathtub full of water. I then stuck the gas hose inside the jug and flipped the jug upside down inside the bath of water. This creates a positive pressure that keeps all the water inside the jug, upside down. Finally you turn the gas on and you can calculate the exact flow. If it takes exactly 60 seconds, that would be 18.9 lpm. If it took 90 seconds, that would be 12.6 lpm, etc. Based on my multiple tests, it took 18-19 lpm indicated on the regulator to achieve an actual rate of 15 lpm. That may include a bit of error from the couple seconds it takes to initially turn the gas on, or not keeping the jug perfectly perpendicular the the ground. But it is enough the prove that IF USING AN ARGON REGULATOR WITH N2, SET THE REGULATOR HIGH, TO 17-18 LPM!

Thank you so much! I'll do that!

I assumed that since Argon is heavier gas that the flow rate needs to be set lower? But with your tests higher?
I assume you're using an exit bag then since you're looking for a release amount of 15LPM?

That's the spec of my tank

2m3 so that's 2000litres of compressed gas?


I suppose instead of setting it on 20LPM with the argon regulator, I should leave it at 25LPM? I don't think it can go any higher

If set at a flow rate of 25LPM, 2000:25 = 80minutes of gas. Is that right?

So I just tried on my hood for a bit before I start assembling the set-up over the weekend but my purge valve is more just like a hole than anything.

When it breathe deep the hood expands and contracts ever so slightly and I didn't need to hold anything to my mouth. It's super snug almost uncomfortably so but I do have a pretty large head, if SI kicks in it might take around 20 seconds to pull it off. I'll send a picture of the one I have, it's just the stock photo of it though.

Spoiler: Hood Image(s)

View attachment 152785

If it expands and contracts, doesn't it mean that the co2 isn't expelled, that it's still in the hood?

I'm a bald girl, my head practically floats in the hood, it's so roomy. Haha.

I wonder, should we be filling the hood with gas and before we pull the hood down?
I know that's done with the exit bag but in case the purge valve doesn't work, should we do this with the hood too?

I found this which is interesting

Will have to practice holding my breath.

Hi! Say me please, if I have metastases in the lungs, Exit Bag will not work? Or it's worth trying?

I don't know why it shouldn't work? You're still inhaling and exhaling air.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

Hi! Say me please, if I have metastases in the lungs, Exit Bag will not work? Or it's worth trying?

I don't know if traveling is an option for you, but you can ask for euthanasia in Belgium. Even as a foreigner.

 

[standingfast]

Is this enough helium?

Helium tank I found:
- Purity: 99.99% pure
- Amount: 19g / 103 Liters / 27 Gallons and it is at 1595 PSI
- Has regulator (though I would need a flowmeter separately)

Now there is a calculation to convert LITERS to CUBIC FEET at a given PSI (PRESSURE).
https://airgas.com/mcm-551.pdf

V2 = [P1 x V1)] / P2

Where:
V2 = what we are trying to find (i.e. how many liters are at the given PSI)
P1 = 1595 PSI (of helium tank)
V1 = 103 Liters (of helium tank)
P2 = 14.7 PSI (Atmospheric Pressure)

V2 = (1595 x 103) / 14.7
V2 = 164285 / 14.7
V2 = 11176 liters

Then convert liters to cubic feet

First convert liters to cubic meters

11176/1000 = 11.176 m3

Then convert m3 to cubic feet
1 cubic foot = 0.02832 m3

11.176/0.02832 = 394 Cubic Feet

So I heard you need like 40 Cubic Feet of Helium

Is this enough? Am I thinking correctly about the conversion? Does 103 liters at 1595 PSI actually near 400 cubic feet of helium?

 

[Chunkus]

Good evening all, I was wondering if I could possibly get some help/advice on the size of tank that's needed, I live in the UK and have found a website that sells helium with the following specs...

• Purity: 99.996%
• Grade: 4.6
• Impurities: H2O <3ppm, O2 <5ppm, N2 <10ppm

I'm assuming that would be ok? But where I'm getting confused is the size of their tanks for example one says...
20L (200 bar) which I thought was a 20 litre tank but then it says next to it VOLUME: 3.61m³ which would be 3610 litres?, Is this correct?
I've never delt with any type of gas tanks, I'm absolutely clueless so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
As for a hood I'm looking at 3M Scott ELSA-10-B set (see attached pic, if it allows me to post it)
Does this look suitable?

Many thanks

Chunk

 

[kudaphillips]

Good evening all, I was wondering if I could possibly get some help/advice on the size of tank that's needed, I live in the UK and have found a website that sells helium with the following specs...

• Purity: 99.996%
• Grade: 4.6
• Impurities: H2O <3ppm, O2 <5ppm, N2 <10ppm

I'm assuming that would be ok? But where I'm getting confused is the size of their tanks for example one says...
20L (200 bar) which I thought was a 20 litre tank but then it says next to it VOLUME: 3.61m³ which would be 3610 litres?, Is this correct?
I've never delt with any type of gas tanks, I'm absolutely clueless so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
As for a hood I'm looking at 3M Scott ELSA-10-B set (see attached pic, if it allows me to post it)
Does this look suitable?

Many thanks

Chunk

Prefilled helium tanks aren't recommended anymore because even though they claim 99.99 they have been known to be a lot less. Should test the purity if you go tht route

 

[standingfast]

Prefilled helium tanks aren't recommended anymore because even though they claim 99.99 they have been known to be a lot less. Should test the purity if you go tht route

So is the best route a local supply store?

 

[kudaphillips]

So is the best route a local supply store?

What's your country ? I'm in US and sourcing the tanks a gas is insanely easy . Can get the tank and gas right as the gas shop . Or can get the tank online and tank it to the gas shop for a filled one. And all of this stuff about having a story and all that isn't even really important . They are businesses.. they want to make money … if they're being dumb about why you want the gas tell em to fuck off, and you're taking your business elsewhere . There's zero laws against any average Joe buying nitrogen .

I understand it's not like that everywhere but …. Depends on where your located

 

[standingfast]

What's your country ? I'm in US and sourcing the tanks a gas is insanely easy . Can get the tank and gas right as the gas shop . Or can get the tank online and tank it to the gas shop for a filled one. And all of this stuff about having a story and all that isn't even really important . They are businesses.. they want to make money … if they're being dumb about why you want the gas tell em to fuck off, and you're taking your business elsewhere . There's zero laws against any average Joe buying nitrogen .

I understand it's not like that everywhere but …. Depends on where your located

I am in the US. I found a place. I just find my introverted self and awkwardness makes it weird. I went in and asked about pricing. It wasn't much different in terms of pricing to buy the tank from there than buy my own and trade it with them. I may just go in and buy it and get it over with.

 

[Allla]

Не знаю, сможете ли вы путешествовать, но в Бельгии вы можете попросить об эвтаназии. Даже будучи иностранцем

я asked Swiss Dignitas, wait)

 

[Chunkus]

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply @kudaphillips it's very much appreciated. Would this be a better option then....

Nitrogen...

Specifications

• Purity: 99.999%
• Grade: 5.0
• Impurities: H2O <3ppm, O2 <5ppm
• 20L (230 bar)
  Volume:
  4.25m³
  Valve:
  BS3

Sorry for being a dumbass and stupid questions but I'm just looking for definitive information so I don't mess my CTB up

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

Is this enough helium?

Helium tank I found:
- Purity: 99.99% pure
- Amount: 19g / 103 Liters / 27 Gallons and it is at 1595 PSI
- Has regulator (though I would need a flowmeter separately)

Now there is a calculation to convert LITERS to CUBIC FEET at a given PSI (PRESSURE).
https://airgas.com/mcm-551.pdf

V2 = [P1 x V1)] / P2

Where:
V2 = what we are trying to find (i.e. how many liters are at the given PSI)
P1 = 1595 PSI (of helium tank)
V1 = 103 Liters (of helium tank)
P2 = 14.7 PSI (Atmospheric Pressure)

V2 = (1595 x 103) / 14.7
V2 = 164285 / 14.7
V2 = 11176 liters

Then convert liters to cubic feet

First convert liters to cubic meters

11176/1000 = 11.176 m3

Then convert m3 to cubic feet
1 cubic foot = 0.02832 m3

11.176/0.02832 = 394 Cubic Feet

So I heard you need like 40 Cubic Feet of Helium

Is this enough? Am I thinking correctly about the conversion? Does 103 liters at 1595 PSI actually near 400 cubic feet of helium?

Are you sure about the psi? Because I've mostly seen 200 and 300 psi.1.595 seems a lot to me. That would mean you have 164.285 l (that's over one hundred thousand) of compressed helium.

Prefilled helium tanks aren't recommended anymore because even though they claim 99.99 they have been known to be a lot less. Should test the purity if you go tht route

This is simply not true. It's known that in the US (!) helium tanks for balloons (!) are mixed with 20% of oxygen which render them useless to ctb.

However, you can still buy helium that's meant for welding for example. These are definitely 99,99% and they come with a product paper and a security paper.

 

[kudaphillips]

I am in the US. I found a place. I just find my introverted self and awkwardness makes it weird. I went in and asked about pricing. It wasn't much different in terms of pricing to buy the tank from there than buy my own and trade it with them. I may just go in and buy it and get it over with.

Oh I hear you . Brutal . Going in .

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply @kudaphillips it's very much appreciated. Would this be a better option then....

Nitrogen...

Specifications

• Purity: 99.999%
• Grade: 5.0
• Impurities: H2O <3ppm, O2 <5ppm
• 20L (230 bar)
  Volume:
  4.25m³
  Valve:
  BS3

Sorry for being a dumbass and stupid questions but I'm just looking for definitive information so I don't mess my CTB

Use whatever gas you prefer . All I'm saying is you need to test it , especially if your buying prefilled online . If from reputable gas supply store that says 99.99% than your probably ok , but still would test it

Are you sure about the psi? Because I've mostly seen 200 and 300 psi.1.595 seems a lot to me. That would mean you have 164.285 l (that's over one hundred thousand) of compressed helium.

This is simply not true. It's known that in the US (!) helium tanks for balloons (!) are mixed with 20% of oxygen which render them useless to ctb.

However, you can still buy helium that's meant for welding for example. These are definitely 99,99% and they come with a product paper and a security paper.

Ok

So you recommend to people on here NOT to test their online prefilled gas to make sure? Yikes

And I'd argue it is true , you just said it's true
" It's known that in the US (!) helium tanks for balloons (!) are mixed with 20% of oxygen which render them useless to ctb.".

Of course it's possible to buy sufficient prefilled gas I never said it wasn't . I said it's not recommended especially if you're not gonna test the purity, for the very reasons you laid out .

Edit: upon re reading I'm thinking you misunderstood and are think i said not to use helium . I'm not saying that at all , I'm saying the online PREFILLED tanks are not recommended UNLESS you plan to test the gas. Of course you can ask for helium at your gas supply and it's likely to be fine I'm saying the prefilled bought online .even then , why would you trust anyone who claims a certain percentage ? Everyone really should be testing their gas regardless where it's from

 

[exitingtothevoid]

Are you sure about the psi? Because I've mostly seen 200 and 300 psi.1.595 seems a lot to me. That would mean you have 164.285 l (that's over one hundred thousand) of compressed helium.

1595 psi is 110 bar, so actually on the low end for a compressed gas cylinder.

 

[Tommen Baratheon]

1595 psi is 110 bar, so actually on the low end for a compressed gas cylinder.

Tnx for correcting, I mistakenly thought we were talking about bar instead of psi.

Oh I hear you . Brutal . Going in .


Use whatever gas you prefer . All I'm saying is you need to test it , especially if your buying prefilled online . If from reputable gas supply store that says 99.99% than your probably ok , but still would test it

Ok

So you recommend to people on here NOT to test their online prefilled gas to make sure? Yikes

And I'd argue it is true , you just said it's true
" It's known that in the US (!) helium tanks for balloons (!) are mixed with 20% of oxygen which render them useless to ctb.".

Of course it's possible to buy sufficient prefilled gas I never said it wasn't . I said it's not recommended especially if you're not gonna test the purity, for the very reasons you laid out .

Edit: upon re reading I'm thinking you misunderstood and are think i said not to use helium . I'm not saying that at all , I'm saying the online PREFILLED tanks are not recommended UNLESS you plan to test the gas. Of course you can ask for helium at your gas supply and it's likely to be fine I'm saying the prefilled bought online .even then , why would you trust anyone who claims a certain percentage ? Everyone really should be testing their gas regardless where it's from

I don't know where you're from, but I've got 2 local stores where I can buy prefilled tanks online with a guaranteed 99,99% helium. I don't need to test it (sure, I'd do a test run). These are stores for professionals and there are official documents:
- technische info
- productbladen
- veiligheidsbladen

The latter are used for transport and necessary for fire department in case of an accident. The helium is used for professional welding and diving. Maybe that doesn't mean much where you're from, but I'm willing to bet my life (pun intended) that there's 99,99% helium in those tanks.

EOD