Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

I think I'll try again sticking with an oven roasting bag (45 x 55cm though would prefer a bit narrower as have a smaller head) and possibly wider elastic as I used 5mm and maybe it didn't have the strength to provide enough pressure for the bag to fill (or at least not with a 50 micron bag?). Not sure about the elastic or the best place to position the hose, though that probably doesn't make any difference. I had it curved round at the top, a la PPeH photos, so it was towards the middle at the top but facing left.

The issue with tightening it as much as possible around the forehead is how to let and tell the oxygen is escaping.. There is a bit of a gap around the hose leading into the bag so I suppose air can escape that way. The books make this technique sound so easy! There's nothing about difficulties filling the bag with gas and making sure the air is escaping in any of the books so it took me by surprise, and I would have had to abort had I been trying in earnest.

 

[color_me_gone]

There's nothing about difficulties filling the bag with gas and making sure the air is escaping in any of the books so it took me by surprise, and I would have had to abort had I been trying in earnest.

This is exactly what bothers me, and I really don't have any answers to that.
I also question how well this procedure actually purges all the oxygen out of the bag.
I suspect this could be a reason why @TiredHorse had to wait so long until unconsciousness set in,
which allowed his SI to kick in. I don't have answers, just questions.

 

[Jen Erik]

I tried this to get a feel for how quickly the bag would fill up and it took such a long time, although I adjusted the flow to almost 25 litres / minute.

I just tested out my own set up – I am using the standard turkey roasting bag with elastic as described in PPeH, with the Max Dog regulator – and I was surprised at how quickly the bag filled and stood up, like a balloon. It was only around 50 seconds, with the regulator set at 15 lpm. The PPeH says "about 2 minutes" so how fast it happened caught me off guard.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

That's reassuring to know Jen Erik! May I ask what size of bag you used and how tight it was on your forehead?
I don't want to make it so tight the air can't escape and wondered if you could feel the air escaping as described in the literature. Also what width of elastic?
Sorry to be so anally retentive, it's just I was caught off guard by how totally lame my bag was. Any detail much welcomed!
Charlotte

 

[Jen Erik]

Reynolds Oven Bags, turkey size, 19" x 23.5" (482mm x 596mm). Elastic is 3/8" (9.5mm). The toggle is 10mm x 20mm.

Before I turned on the gas, I pulled the bag all the way down over my head and adjusted the elastic and toggle so as for it not to be so tight around my neck to leave room for the carbon dioxide I'd exhale to flow out.

After the elastic was adjusted, I pushed the bag up so it was on my forehead and just above my ears. I flattened it out to remove all the air from the bag.

So, the bag was tight around my forehead and rest of my head. That was when I turned on the nitrogen. I did not feel any gas flowing out while the bag was pushed up on my forehead.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Thanks for the detail Jen Erik. How did you position the hose?

Even though you didn't feel gas flowing out / air being pushed out, I assume it must have been or else the bag would have gone pop I guess.

 

[Jen Erik]

Thanks for the detail Jen Erik. How did you position the hose?

I used the oxygen tubing that came included with the regulator, and taped it up to the back part of the bag; I will take a photo of it.

Even though you didn't feel gas flowing out / air being pushed out, I assume it must have been or else the bag would have gone pop I guess.

I'm not sure about the gas flowing out, but there wasn't really an opportunity for it to pop from potential over-inflation, because as soon as I saw in the mirror that it was mostly inflated, I turned the gas off and took the bag off. My purpose for that test was to verify if it did take 2 minutes to inflate as PPeH says, so as soon as I saw it being so quickly filled, that was all I needed to see.

Edited to add:
I suck at taking pictures really, and the bag is the crinkly kind, but hopefully the tube can be seen, it's taped up on the inside on the back panel.

 

[Redt2go]

OOH WHAT ABOUT THE AIRPLANE OXYGEN MASKS?

 

[color_me_gone]

OOH WHAT ABOUT THE AIRPLANE OXYGEN MASKS?

All kinds of masks are discouraged: more complex than bag = less reliable.
Sad, I know, because the thought of a bag is ikky.
But the simplicity of the bag IS genius.
The function of the bag in this method is not the same as the masks.

 

[Redt2go]

All kinds of masks are discouraged: more complex than bag = less reliable.
Sad, I know, because the thought of a bag is ikky.
But the simplicity of the bag IS genius.
The function of the bag in this method is not the same as the masks.

thank you

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

I used the oxygen tubing that came included with the regulator, and taped it up to the back part of the bag; I will take a photo of it.


Thanks so much for posting up this detail Jen Erik! Since there's a hose running up into the bag, I assume the air can get out that way, since there are gaps to either side. It's confusing since the PPeH says the bag should not be tight on the head, but I don't see how it can inflate properly that way.

 

[Jen Erik]

Since there's a hose running up into the bag, I assume the air can get out that way, since there are gaps to either side. It's confusing since the PPeH says the bag should not be tight on the head, but I don't see how it can inflate properly that way.

I see what you're saying. That hadn't occurred to me, about the hose. I think, at least in the case of an oxygen-type hose, it is so small, the nitrogen escaping would be negligible.

It's confusing since the PPeH says the bag should not be tight on the head, but I don't see how it can inflate properly that way.

I believe what they are referring to is for it not to be tight around the neck once the bag is pulled down. Because yeah, you're right, how else would it inflate, it has to be tight against the head as it's inflating.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

On p109 in the PPeH it does say the bag shouldn't be tight over the head, and then that it should be loose around the neck - in contrast to 'snug' around the neck which is advised elsewhere. So unclear. I suppose the question is how to get the bag tight enough for it to fill up properly, while also letting the oxygen escape.

 

[Jen Erik]

Yeah there are definitely a bunch of inconsistencies throughout, which isn't very reassuring.

 

[color_me_gone]

From a logic standpoint, I think the tightness around your forehead will need to be tight enough for whatever it takes to inflate the bag. Various bags have different characteristics, so tightness will vary. I would not increase the flow rate, keep it a 15 liters/min. Tighten the elastic until the bag inflates. No matter how tight, I don't think you can burst the bag. The bag would pop off the top of your head if pressure build-up were too great. Those oven bags are very strong plastic.

Now once the bag is completely over your head, the adjustment is more critical. The lungs are easily damaged when blown up like a balloon, so excessive tightness could cause that. It is important to keep the lungs functioning properly to rid the blood of CO2 for a painless death. I think there is a three finger rule? Better to err on the side of looseness here. Only if it was really excessively loose, it might interfere with the proper purging of CO2 out the bottom of the bag.

My wife is going out of town for two weeks in May. Time for me then to get my 40 cuft cylinder of N2 from the local gas supply shop! Wish the three of us could get together. I would like to do a trail run where I would completely pass out, then have someone remove the bag and time the process. Once I am confident of everything, I can do the deed by myself.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Yes, I wish I wasn't having to do all this alone. Just getting the gas to work was pretty hard. Now I'm not quite sure if I have enough left - I have a 137 bar cylinder which was reading close to 150 bars initially, and now is at 110. It was 1340 litres when full and have no idea how much is now left, or how accurate pressure gauges are in telling you how much is left. If anyone is good at maths / has much cylinder experience, let me know what you think!

 

[Jen Erik]

I'm not familiar with what the bar measurement means, my gauge just has psi on it and the flow meter is operated by clicks, but I know for my own 20 cu ft cylinder I calculated how much nitrogen was remaining by taking the pressure capacity of the cylinder when full (ie, what the manufacturer's specification is) over the size of the cylinder, and then what the pressure on the gauge currently reads over x, where solving for x gives the volume of nitrogen remaining.

I converted that number into liters, then divided that result by 15 liters/min (as suggested as the optimum in PPeH), and got the number of minutes of nitrogen remaining in the tank.

I worked these numbers out myself recently which made me decide to buy an additional tank, this time a 40 cu ft one, just to be on the safe side, because I worry endlessly, and it's better to have too much than too little. Here is my messy math if it's helpful to visualize. I feel like I rounded the numbers very conservatively, ie: better to assume there is less gas is in the cylinder than to overestimate and be wrong and not have enough and end up brain-damaged or whatever.

My numbers more or less coincide with what PPeH talks about - where it says a 400 liter cylinder should provide ~25 minutes of nitrogen at 15 l/pm.

I want to emphasize that these numbers are my own calculations for my own equipment. I am not a math wizard by any means, and it's important to be sure to verify and re-verify calculations, especially because equipment and gauges and whatever can really vary.

Spoiler: Messy math screenshot

 

[Jodes]

My new thoughts:

I don't think a bag needs any modifications. At most a couple. My thoughts:

• The elastic holding the bag round the neck will be one of those weird new shoestring that is elasticated, strong and has a toggle.
• I will use an extra large resealable zip bag rather than a turkey bag. It just seems slightly more dignified.
• I will not cut any holes in the bag: it introduces possibilities of tears and leaks.
• The gaffer tape is also extra work and complication, and would keep it to a minimum.
• The tube will go up via the neck, quite high so that air flow goes from top of the bag to the bottom around the seal of the neck. It just needs a bit of gaffer tape for this to the bag, making sure that tugs won't tear anything. I considered even attaching it to a sort of collar instead so the bag is entirely unmodified.
• The size of the bag for me will probably be slightly on the larger side; I'd prefer a slight wait to unconsciousness. I've come to think of my previous SI experiences as a sign that I'm not ready. I'm happy to invite the pleasant fading, and comfort of knowing I've done what I need to as my life flashes before my eyes in those final moments.

I will probably change this a few times, suggestions welcome.

PS I'd prefer to use headphones.

My only worry is if the asphyxiation happens slowly, I think I remember reading that it can cause spasms, or even fits. I might tie down my wrists with rope or something to just make sure the bag and tubes don't get messed about

The noise from the gas probably actually is a bit loud and distressing so I might cut a bit of cloth and put it round the end to keep it a bit quieter.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

I'm not familiar with what the bar measurement means, my gauge just has psi on it and the flow meter is operated by clicks, but I know for my own 20 cu ft cylinder I calculated how much nitrogen was remaining by taking the pressure capacity of the cylinder when full (ie, what the manufacturer's specification is) over the size of the cylinder, and then what the pressure on the gauge currently reads over x, where solving for x gives the volume of nitrogen remaining.

Thanks again for your reply :) I worked out from your calculations, which provoked dim high school maths memories, that I probably have about 1000 litres left. Which would be plenty if I didn't want to try another run through and wasn't generally quite neurotic. i have done what you have and ordered another tank. I'm also using a less precise finger-type flowmeter (designed for argon) than the click one and running it at approx 20 liters / minute as my breathing tends to be a bit shallow due to health problems.

I would prefer a method where technique wasn't important but this is the only one open to me, though I wait with interest for the PPeH update on the rebreather mask next month, which seems to have made it onto the market.

Charlotte

 

[Jen Erik]

Thanks again for your reply :) I worked out from your calculations, which provoked dim high school maths memories, that I probably have about 1000 litres left. Which would be plenty if I didn't want to try another run through and wasn't generally quite neurotic. i have done what you have and ordered another tank. I'm also using a less precise finger-type flowmeter (designed for argon) than the click one and running it at approx 20 liters / minute as my breathing tends to be a bit shallow due to health problems.

I would prefer a method where technique wasn't important but this is the only one open to me, though I wait with interest for the PPeH update on the rebreather mask next month, which seems to have made it onto the market.

Charlotte

haha yeah those old algebra skills, finally coming in useful.

What's the rebreather mask? Just the name invokes images better than a bag.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

It's a mask that I think depletes your oxygen levels and erases the CO2. It's been in development for a long time but had the usual problems of using a mask, as in air getting in while unconscious. It's not being touted as a miracle breakthrough so must have such shortcomings, and may be a slower process than using N. I would want to see many success stories before trying a new method, but am glad new approaches are being developed.

 

[Jodes]

It's a mask that I think depletes your oxygen levels and erases the CO2. It's been in development for a long time but had the usual problems of using a mask, as in air getting in while unconscious. It's not being touted as a miracle breakthrough so must have such shortcomings, and may be a slower process than using N. I would want to see many success stories before trying a new method, but am glad new approaches are being developed.

I think that has implications for how big the EXIT bag should be - a minimum or maximum?

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Tired Horse shared what he did here - ie how tight the bag was etc.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/more-nitrogen-questions-sorry.7285/#post-126471

I got a new tank of gas delivered today. Wondering if this is a better regulator than the one I'm using (that needs a separate argon flowmeter) if anyone has a chance to look. I couldn't find any here in the UK with a built in flowmeter, but this one seems to!

Nitrogen Regulator - Single Stage

Nitrogen Regulator - Single Stage 2 Gauge (10 Bar) High quality engineering provides for stable regulation over the life of a cylinder, reducing gas consumption, promoting safety and increasing the efficiency of applications. Our Superflow regulato

www.gas-uk.co.uk

 

[Walilamdzi]

Nitrogen seems more peaceful than any other method to me, but I worry about the complexity of the setup - I'm not sure how difficult it would be to find a regulator that fits onto whatever tank I would get, I don't know how much sizes vary and whatnot. Also not sure whether there are hoops to jump through when ordering a tank online and having it delivered, somewhat doubting if I can set this up in a time window without someone noticing, as I live with others. I'd have to be sure nobody would be around when the tank was delivered, too. I haven't really looked into the specifics enough, but each part of the setup is quite expensive so wouldn't want to mess it up if I did order these things.

 

[PeacePlease]

Are the helium balloon kits not useful at all? I'm fairly new to the forum, and got the idea of the inert gas method from the final exit book long before joining. They suggest only the party balloon kit, bag and tube. Now I come here and there is need for much more gas and a regulator. I'm so discouraged my tank. Is 99.9 % helium and I got 2 8.9 cubic ft as they mentioned there. I wanted to cbt this weekend but it seems the needed gear is so much more complicated. Should I ditch the helium party balloon kit even if it was recommended in the final exit book? I surely don't want to end up with brain damage. Any advice?

 

[color_me_gone]

my tank. Is 99.9 % helium

Are you sure? Does the tank explicitly say that, right on the tank itself?
In 2015, balloon manufacturers switched to 80% helium / 20% air for two reasons:

1. Helium became scare and more expensive - the 80/20 mix still floats balloons.
2. They were aware of balloon kits being used for ctb, public outcry ask them to fix that.

If you have 80/20, you don't have to worry about brain damage,
because 80/20 will probably never even take you unconscious, let alone brain damage.

Here is the thing. For balloon applications, purity is not critical.
They might have changed the mix, but not the documentation.
Nobody would care, it still floats balloons.

Balloon tanks are not high pressure tanks. Maybe 100 to 200 psi.
Industrial gases are sold in tanks that are typically 2000 psi, then a regulator is absolutely needed.

 

[PeacePlease]

Are you sure? Does the tank explicitly say that, right on the tank itself?
In 2015, balloon manufacturers switched to 80% helium / 20% air for two reasons:

1. Helium became scare and more expensive - the 80/20 mix still floats balloons.
2. They were aware of balloon kits being used for ctb, public outcry ask them to fix that.

If you have 80/20, you don't have to worry about brain damage,
because 80/20 will probably never even take you unconscious, let alone brain damage.

Here is the thing. For balloon applications, purity is not critical.
They might have changed the mix, but not the documentation.
Nobody would care, it still floats balloons.

Balloon tanks are not high pressure tanks. Maybe 100 to 200 psi.
Industrial gases are sold in tanks that are typically 2000 psi, then a regulator is absolutely needed.

I explicitly asked the vendor for pure helium and the invoice description said 99.9% but what you say makes sense. Im sad this method seemed simple and sure in the final exit book wich seemed reliable and like they knew what they were talking about with just the party kit. But I'm not sure now. Guess I'll have to keep searching for berer tools :c Im so disappointed


Given the small party tank is actually pure helium, do you think it will be enough?

 

[color_me_gone]

in the final exit book wich seemed reliable

It was reliable, cheap, and easy to get.
That is why it was so popular, and why they took action against it. :(

Given the small party tank is actually pure helium, do you think it will be enough?

Final Exit recommends 40 minutes of gas for absolute guarantee of death.
Various body factors cause the time to death to vary from person to person.
40 minutes was determined to be unsurvivable in all cases, with some margin of error.
Final Exit recommends a flow rate of 15 liters / minute.
15 l/m x 40 m = 600 liters = 22 cubic feet.

8.9 x 2 = 17.8 cubic feet.
Sounds questionable according to Final Exit standards.

 

[Jen Erik]

Final Exit recommends 40 minutes

When you say "Final Exit", what are you referring to?

 

[color_me_gone]

When you say "Final Exit", what are you referring to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Exit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Exit_Network