Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Urm... daft question. I just realised the (BOC) regulator I currently have is only for use on their own cylinders, as otherwise the dials face upwards instead of sitting vertically. Does this make any difference? I'm wondering if it's a safety rather then mechanical recommendation. I wonder if I tend to overthink things... heh. It's just every photo of a regulator I see online sits vertically and not horizontally like mine. It means it's at a 90 degree angle from my flowmeter, the floating metal ball type. Sheesh.

 

[color_me_gone]

face upwards instead of sitting vertically

It is of no consequence.

 

[DeepMind]

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and I would like to get some opinion on argon and cars/bath tubs.

Cars have the big advantage that you can move them + equipment around and thereby move away from places, where friends and family live. This makes it easier for them to continue living in that place, because it is not directly connected to an exit. Moreover, cars or bath tubs are more open space and therfore more suitable for people who want to avoid using masks. Of course, argon has to be used in these cases because it is heavier than air and will accumulate on the floor.

SUVs and many other cars (except limousines) have big trunks that are separated by a back seat row from the rest of the car. It should be easily possible to line the trunk sides and floor with pool liner or other foil. The trunk sides can be lined as high as the backseat row goes.

Next, a 10 litre bottle (200 bar) of argon (make sure that it's pure argon and not some mixture with CO2) is placed on the floor of the trunk. The filling normally equals 2,100 litres of argon when released. This should be more than enough, since the volume of average car trunks ranges between 400 and 800 (SUV) litres but since we only line until the height of the backseats, we need less. Trunk volume could be checked in the car manual but car manufacturer often cheat and report higher numbers by including all kinds of smaller spaces and convexities in the trunk.

Argon is around 40% heavier than air and when the valve is opened, it starts filling the trunk from the bottom. It will replace the air by pushing it upwards into the rest of the car.

The trunk compartment cover should now be replaced with foil but a 50cm/20inch space should be left open, for the normal air to get out and for the person to get in later.

Please correct me, if I'm wrong:

• Using a standard pressure regulator with 50 mbar results in 1.5 kg/h flow rate with a standard argon bottle (10 litres, 200 bar)
• The density of argon is 1,784 kg/m3
• So after 30 minutes, 0.75 kg of argon should equal around 0,42 m3 or 420 litres, enough to fill a 400 l trunk

Once the 30 minutes are over, a person could slowly enter the trunk through the open space in the foil from the backseat. The person will probably push out some argon and push in some air by his/her movement but he/she can wait 5 more minutes with head above the foil to add another 66 litres, and then slowly enter the trunk where the argon will have accumulated on the floor again.

The bottle is open all the time and will ensure that for the next 2 hours, another 1,600 litres of argon will be released, ensuring the exit.

The same principle can be used for a bath tub, where the plughole and other openings are sealed with duct tape and some transparent foil (including a small space for the air to exit and the person to enter) is spread/attached on top. Bath tubs only have around 200 litres and should therefore be filled within 15 minutes.

Do you guys think that this is a valid approach or would you improve something? I was looking for an instrument to measure argon content but couldn't find one. Are there instruments to measure direct oxygen content of the environment? This could be used to ensure that the oxygen has been replaced in the trunk.

Please feel free to comment, great community.

 

[Righttodie]

im ordering nitrogen tank right now they are asking a few questions like

1. capacity of tank

2.pressure and flow rate

3. how many litres


how much do I get?

Yes. I got asked about the pressure too. I don't know what to say about the pressure.

Can anyone help me with what to tell him about the pressure I require. I am going to be using nitrogen.

Thanks

 

[color_me_gone]

Can anyone help me with what to tell him about the pressure I require. I am going to be using nitrogen.

They pressure is of no consequence for this method. If you purchase an industrial tank from a welding supplier, those tanks are at 2000 psi. If you order a tank from a brewing supplier, it will be much less.
The only thing important for this method is a flow rate of 15 liters/minute.

 

[Righttodie]

They pressure is of no consequence for this method. If you purchase an industrial tank from a welding supplier, those tanks are at 2000 psi. If you order a tank from a brewing supplier, it will be much less.
The only thing important for this method is a flow rate of 15 liters/minute.

Thanks :)

Irrelevant to this thread. But I am looking at sodium nitride poisoning as well.

 

[TiredHorse]

Yes. I got asked about the pressure too. I don't know what to say about the pressure.

They pressure is of no consequence for this method. ... The only thing important for this method is a flow rate of 15 liters/minute.

Here's an unsettling thought:

If the helium sellers started diluting their helium specifically so that people couldn't use it to ctb, could pressurized gas sellers now be taking steps to foil us by asking, "what pressure do you need?" If we, who are not concerned with anything but flow rate and duration --and are unlikely to know anything about necessary pressures-- simply reply, "I just need to run at 15 LPM for 40 minutes," could that tip off the gas sellers that we are using their product to CTB, and thus cue them to refuse the purchase?

I don't want to be paranoid, but is "what pressure do you need?" a sort of anti-CTB shibboleth to reduce our access to that method?

With this in mind, anyone purchasing inert gas would do well to have an excuse on hand for why we don't need to specify a pressure. For that, keep in mind the non-CTB reasons for using inert gas --welding, brewing beer, food preservation, paint preservation, inflating performance bicycle or car tires-- and have ready a reply along the lines of, "I don't care about pressure, I'm just using it to prevent the buckets of paint I'm storing from skinning over."

Just a thought.

 

[Righttodie]

Here's an unsettling thought:

If the helium sellers started diluting their helium specifically so that people couldn't use it to ctb, could pressurized gas sellers now be taking steps to foil us by asking, "what pressure do you need?" If we, who are not concerned with anything but flow rate and duration --and are unlikely to know anything about necessary pressures-- simply reply, "I just need to run at 15 LPM for 40 minutes," could that tip off the gas sellers that we are using their product to CTB, and thus cue them to refuse the purchase?

I don't want to be paranoid, but is "what pressure do you need?" a sort of anti-CTB shibboleth to reduce our access to that method?

With this in mind, anyone purchasing inert gas would do well to have an excuse on hand for why we don't need to specify a pressure. For that, keep in mind the non-CTB reasons for using inert gas --welding, brewing beer, food preservation, paint preservation, inflating performance bicycle or car tires-- and have ready a reply along the lines of, "I don't care about pressure, I'm just using it to prevent the buckets of paint I'm storing from skinning over."

Just a thought.

That's a good thought. Yes, maybe that could be their way of wanting to know exactly what is going on.

In my case it seems unlikely as people in my country are far from well versed about mental health and nitrogen being used to take one's life. I guess I will tell him that I am not concerned about the pressure, and see where that takes me.

 

[color_me_gone]

I don't want to be paranoid, but is "what pressure do you need?" a sort of anti-CTB shibboleth to reduce our access to that method?

I was sort of thinking along the same lines.
Why would they ask pressure, when it only comes in standard pressures anyway.

 

[Righttodie]

I was sort of thinking along the same lines.
Why would they ask pressure, when it only comes in standard pressures anyway.

Maybe in some applications the pressure might come into play.

 

[Yuri]

Pressure depends on how big your tank is and how much gas are you pumping in. They won't ask you about pressure because they can't change it anyway
upd: In your case they asked cos you are buying package tank+gas. You can buy empty used tank for gas of your choice and then separately buy gas itself with your own tank. Less questions and cheaper overall.

 

[JWL]

Yes. I got asked about the pressure too. I don't know what to say about the pressure.

Can anyone help me with what to tell him about the pressure I require. I am going to be using nitrogen.

Thanks

In which country? UK?

 

[NextSummer]

This dude openly talks about how his attempt failed, yet I don't know if he is serious (he is openly christian) and why he failed (my listening skills in English aren't that good). What do you guys think?

 

[Walilamdzi]

@NextSummer It seemed real at first. He said that the pressure regulator gauge wasn't working, so the gas didn't come out at the correct speed. Then the video took a bit of a weird turn, I don't really understand what he's on about, "waking up in bed" and none of the things he'd been looking at around him, and English is my first language. It's sort of incoherent and a bit rambly. Strange video.

 

[color_me_gone]

Strange video.

Yeah.
I wonder if it didn't have some impact on his brain, because he seems very incoherent.
He really didn't give a good clue as to what went wrong.

The flow rate is quite important.
Performing that method without an accurate flow meter is stupid.
If the flow is too low, the purging of exhaled CO2 and O2 will not be proper.
If the flow is too high, you will run out of gas before you are dead.

He mentioned the loudness of the gas, so I wonder if his flow rate was too high,
although @TiredHorse , who is our SS expert on this method also mentioned the loudness.
The video also didn't mention how much gas he had in his tank either.

In my opinion, the important points to take away here are:

1. Always use a quality flow meter, which has a scale on it which is calibrated for the specific type of gas you are using. The scales are all different for each of: nitrogen, argon and helium. Don't try to use a flow meter for argon and use a conversion factor to nitrogen. Why? Because every manufacturer has a different conversion factor, you might be using the wrong one. These conversion factors vary widely between manufacturers. We discussed this in another thread. If you are using nitrogen, it is the safest to buy a flow meter calibrated specifically for nitrogen. (they are not as common as He and Argon, but they DO exist.​

​

2. Safest to buy more than enough gas to do the job. In my opinion, that amount is 40 cu. ft. tank, which is one of the standard industrial tank sizes available.​

 

[TiredHorse]

He mentioned the loudness of the gas, so I wonder if his flow rate was too high,
although @TiredHorse , who is our SS expert on this method also mentioned the loudness.

Just to fine tune the description, it isn't so much that the flow of gas is loud/deafening, high decibels, as that it is very, very noticeable. It was hissing away right behind my head, impossible to ignore, loud enough to be the most prevalent sound in the room. Don't get me wrong, it was still loud enough you could have heard it across the room, but not so loud as, say, a coffee milk steamer. Had you heard the same noise coming from an air tube on any other, less dramatic occasion, you wouldn't have had to plug your ears and leave, you would have just said, "Huh; that's distracting."

Most of all, it was psychologically loud, in the way a ticking clock is loud when you're alone and waiting for the arrival of something you dread.

 

[ArtVandelay]

@TiredHorse If I was in a hotel room, how noticeable do you think it would be to people walking in the hallway?

 

[TiredHorse]

@TiredHorse If I was in a hotel room, how noticeable do you think it would be to people walking in the hallway?

Not at all noticeable to someone in the hallway.

Blow very hard through a drinking straw --continuously for several minutes. I don't have a straw on hand to check, and haven't drank through a straw in years (odd, isn't it?), but from what I remember I suspect the noise type/volume is similar.

It really only feels so damned loud because it's a couple inches from your ear and you're stressed as hell.

 

[JWL]

Just to fine tune the description, it isn't so much that the flow of gas is loud/deafening, high decibels, as that it is very, very noticeable. It was hissing away right behind my head, impossible to ignore, loud enough to be the most prevalent sound in the room. Don't get me wrong, it was still loud enough you could have heard it across the room, but not so loud as, say, a coffee milk steamer. Had you heard the same noise coming from an air tube on any other, less dramatic occasion, you wouldn't have had to plug your ears and leave, you would have just said, "Huh; that's distracting."

Most of all, it was psychologically loud, in the way a ticking clock is loud when you're alone and waiting for the arrival of something you dread.

Wouldn't your favourite music on iPod headphones do the trick?

 

[color_me_gone]

iPod headphones

You don't want your cell phone around, it is trackable, and tempts your SI.

 

[NextSummer]

The problem with earphones might be the risk that they might drop when pulling the bag down. It's unpleasant to have music in just one ear. Being slightly annoyed is not a feeling I want to have in my final seconds

 

[TiredHorse]

Wouldn't your favourite music on iPod headphones do the trick?

Yes, and that's my plan should I attempt again --being careful to keep the earbuds in place (not difficult).

Honestly, and a bit embarassingly, that was my plan for a couple of my failures --I even made up a special play list-- but in the end I didn't bother, or in the heat of the moment, in my rush to just end myself, I forgot. That said, as prevalent as the noise was, I don't think that was the deciding factor for my failures. As I've described elsewhere, my SI manifested in a very peculiar, there's-another-person-in-my-head sort of way.

As for cell phones, I don't have one, but even having a landline a few steps away from my chair, I was never tempted to use it. That's the good thing about eb/N2: self-rescue (self-defeat?) is as simple as removing the bag and breathing air. You don't need to get EMS involved.

But if you're worried about being tracked, yet want your tunes, you can put your phone in a mylar bag (pop tarts!) and you're instantly off the cell grid.

 

[Help_Me]

Everything described here is exhausting and I really like it. I just can't get one thing with metrics system. It is mentioned a tank with 40 cubic feet should be ok and its not very big in size. I converted 40 cubic feets to liters for my native measure system and got like 1600 liters. That's an extremely large amount. The average gas tank here is 20 or 30 liters. As you know, I just can't order like 60 giant tanks, connect them all and finally do the exit bag method. It seems like something is wrong with metrics system, or something is totally wrong with me [stupid]. I double checked the converters and it's still gigantic amount of liters. If there is someone who can help me with all these metrics I'd really, really appreciate that. I have a strong feeling this calculations above is impossible.

 

[ArtVandelay]

@Help_Me Something is wrong with your calculations. 20 cubic feet is one of the smallest cylinders available where I live. 20 or 30 liters is such a small amount, I don't think any cylinders of that size exist. That would be like 1 cubic foot. Are you looking at ordering from a specific website or from a local gas supplier?

Edit: See this table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_cylinder#Common_cylinder_sizes

United States 19 cubic feet = international 3 liter

So it sounds like a 40 cubic foot tank is around 6 liters for you. I could be wrong though.

 

[TiredHorse]

Everything described here is exhausting and I really like it. I just can't get one thing with metrics system. It is mentioned a tank with 40 cubic feet should be ok and its not very big in size. I converted 40 cubic feets to liters for my native measure system and got like 1600 liters. That's an extremely large amount. The average gas tank here is 20 or 30 liters. As you know, I just can't order like 60 giant tanks, connect them all and finally do the exit bag method. It seems like something is wrong with metrics system, or something is totally wrong with me [stupid]. I double checked the converters and it's still gigantic amount of liters. If there is someone who can help me with all these metrics I'd really, really appreciate that. I have a strong feeling this calculations above is impossible.

First off, yes, 40cf is 1132.67 liters. And yes, 1100L is quite a bit. Technically that's almost twice what you need to CTB(40 min @ 15LPM = 600L), but that's why I got it: I've got extra for things like flubbed attempts (six so far, but only three used any measure of gas) and for tweaking the flow rate up a bit to compensate for the fact I have an argon/CO2 regulator (cheap) instead of a dedicated N2 regulator (expensive).

As for gas tank sizes, they are notoriously non-standardized. Different companies develop their own sizes so that they can keep track of which are "their" tanks, when deciding whether to refill them, exchange them, etc., which makes the entire affair a damned nuisance. The only good news is that the valve threads are standardized, so at least any generic inert gas regulator will fit any tank of inert gas.

All of which is to say that you'll need to call your gas supplier and say something like, "I've been told I need about 1200 liters of nitrogen for my beer making project, but I don't know what size tank that would be." That phrasing is verbal prestidigitation: you're offhandedly mentioning the use (beer), and that you're a novice ("I've been told"), which diverts the salesman from ever putting much of his own thought into questioning you closely about why you need a specific amount; he can then focus on educating you about tank size --and the question of suicide never even comes up.

 

[Help_Me]

Thank you guys for your explanations ! Now I got it. Seems like everything depends on gas tank provider and other circumstances. Seems like 5 liter argon tank is minimum required to ctb and totally ok for my region. Also , 10 liters tank is also an option for such paranoid persons like me)

 

[NextSummer]

Sorry, I've to share another video. "The more often we did it, the more often the emotional side faded away". Means one has to practice a lot, otherwise there will be problems with SI.

 

[JWL]

You don't want your cell phone around, it is trackable, and tempts your SI.

I said iPod.

You don't want your cell phone around, it is trackable, and tempts your SI.

Why would a cell phone tempt my SI. My cell phone rarely tempts me. Unlike the rest of the world I don't live for my phone.

 

[savagek]

I've heard that being a smoker can have an effect when using this method. How much should I be concered considering I've been a smoker for a few years?

 

[ArtVandelay]

I've heard that being a smoker can have an effect when using this method. How much should I be concered considering I've been a smoker for a few years?

In the Peaceful Pill Handbook, it is recommended to do a spirometry test at the doctor to ensure your lung function is adequate. I quit smoking years ago, but I'm going to get one of these tests anyway just to be safe. I'm in the US and there are walk-in clinics in my area that can do it for you. I would recommend you to do the same if possible, and no cigarettes for 24-48 hours before you CTB. You could use nicotine gum or a patch to help with the cravings if you need to.